If this bill were a step forward, we would support it.

[nightrain]

If this bill were a step forward, we would support it
Posted by Andrew Coates MD on Sunday, Mar 21, 2010

If this bill were a step forward, we would support it
by Margaret Flowers, MD

http://pnhp.org/blog/

------------------------

If this bill were a step forward, we would support it.

If we believed and evidence indicated that this bill could be “tweaked” into something better, we would support it.

But this bill is a step backwards, a step away from single payer. This bill further cements the privatization of health care, further enriches the industries that are the problem.

We are seeing the same scenario play out at the national level that has played out at the state level for decades. People see the suffering because it is very real. They are told that we must do something and that this all they can get. So the people accept this believing it is an incremental step towards reform. And guess what – it is not a step in the right direction. This type of reform has failed every time. This is why we continue to be in a health care crisis.

As this passes, the public will be told it is a solution. They will be told to wait and see how it works when it is implemented in 2014. In the meantime, people will continue to suffer, go bankrupt or die of preventable causes. This is unacceptable.

We want health CARE reform. Health insurance reform makes no sense. Health insurance is very regulated but they are rich enough and clever enough to evade regulation. We will not support health insurance reform: it is a waste of time, money and human life.

If we want real reform, it isn’t going to be pretty. It can’t be brought in through the back door or by tweaking. We will have to take on a very powerful industry that currently owns the White House, Congress and the media. But work for anything less is a waste of time. The smallest increment of change that will be effective is to change to publicly funded health care.

It is not going to be another 10 years or 50 years before we get real reform if this bill fails. The single payer movement is growing. We can organize and push for real reform. But we must stand strong and united on our principles. We must put single payer on the table. It won’t happen any other way.

Dr. Margaret Flowers, a Maryland pediatrician, is PNHP’s Congressional Fellow.

[Skittles]

1. YUP

it's the wrong direction

[ixion]

5. Exactly

[Skittles]

7. the analogy I can think of

is that healthcare in America was like a car hurtling towards a cliff - but insead of stopping and tinkering with the car and changing direction, they're just attempting to slow the car down a bit - but the fundamental problem with the car still exists - and it will still reach that cliff. It completely sucks.

[ixion]

8. An apt analogy... also applicable to the finance sector

That sound you hear above the sound of clinking champagne glasses is the sound... of inevitability. :(

[FLAprogressive]

2. teabaggers.

:sarcasm:

[mike_c]

3. K&R!

:bounce:

[LibDemAlways]

4. "It is a waste of time, money, and human life." Exactly. n/t

[RandomThoughts]

6. Lets get serious.

Until people start breaking up corporations, and monopoly capitalism, including media ownership, then the money question really does not exist. As long as you support the consolidation of wealth and claims to ownership through the mega corporations then change will be difficult.

The argument for public option is to create competitive, because corporations can not do it, because monopolies are more profitable. The public option, or medicare buy in would show how inefficient corporations are for society. That is why they don't want it.

Each person needs to talk to their neighbors about what they actually stand for. It is really all a person can do, and it keeps peace of mind to know that we are responsible to let people know what we think, not to force someone to do something infringing on their free will.

But until then, any reform that helps people is a good thing in my view.

However I also will continue to advocate for the breaking up of corporate systems that want societal control, when their prime motive shows it is not best for society.

I also know that most people are mostly good, and that includes people in corporations and media, so I think that will be were the change occurs, when they realize that they have a choice like anyone else. And many choose to try and find better ideas and better ways. Many in those jobs also push for new ideas.

But as long as they claim ability to rule by money, or by claimed power that comes from the profit motive, then that will be all they have, a claim to live by money, which is a shorter claim then other claims. And most know that, so things will get better.

[emilyg]

23. k/r

[tbyg52]

71. +1,000,000 nt

[pundaint]

73. Yeah we will win, eventually, but how long did the feudal system last before reform?

[DJ13]

9. And THIS is why it became urgent to pass the current HCR

"It is not going to be another 10 years or 50 years before we get real reform if this bill fails. The single payer movement is growing. We can organize and push for real reform."


The DC power brokers saw the rising surge of single payer becoming entrenched throughout the country and saw that if they didnt pass their pro corporate insurance bill now the public would demand single payer.

[Uncle Joe]

10. I totally agree, this bill institutionalizes the primary dysfunction of the for profit system.

It's no wonder the Republicans were the first ones to come up with this idea.

Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, nightrain.

[Demeter]

31. And It's Unconstitutional to Boot

I expect it will go down in flames in the Supreme Court's BBQ pit before it gets implemented.


How are you doing, Uncle Joe? Got any spring out your way yet? I saw my first daffodil yesterday!

[Uncle Joe]

42. I hate to say it but I don't believe it makes any difference whether it's Constitutional or not,

this Republican Supreme will uphold it because this bill/law enriches and institutionalizes mass, forced privatization of what should be under all logical, fiscal and moral reasons, a public/government only function, under any other circumstance, this privatization would be a neocon's moist dream.

I'm doing fine, I hope you are as well, the weather is becoming nice and pretty, today is perfect.

Peace to you.:hi:

[Mithreal]

61. +1

[mzmolly]

11. They're a single payer or bust organization. Nothing less would satisfy them.

:hi:

[nightrain]

20. I guess Dr Flowers lies then, according to you. Closed mind?

Let in some new information.

[mzmolly]

26. No, they're actually quite upfront about it.

About PNHP

Physicians for a National Health Program is a single issue organization advocating a universal, comprehensive single-payer national health program. PNHP has more than 17,000 members and chapters across the United States.

Since 1987, we've advocated for reform in the U.S. health care system. We educate physicians and other health professionals about the benefits of a single-payer system--including fewer administrative costs and affording health insurance for the 46 million Americans who have none.

Our members and physician activists work toward a single-payer national health program in their communities. PNHP performs ground breaking research on the health crisis and the need for fundamental reform, coordinates speakers and forums, participates in town hall meetings and debates, contributes scholarly articles to peer-reviewed medical journals, and appears regularly on national television and news programs advocating for a single-payer system.

PNHP is the only national physician organization in the United States dedicated exclusively to implementing a single-payer national health program.

[liberation]

32. I love how some of you consider having principles and stand by them as a "flaw of character"

says and explains a lot...

[mzmolly]

36. You'll have to show me where "some of you" said

such a thing. Though, I love how "some of you" feel you can define principles for everyone.

[liberation]

62. Read the post of yours which I was replying to and comprehend it...

... it really is not my duty to fix voids in your education.

[mzmolly]

70. Here's the original and follow up post.

My post >>>> http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=525356&mesg_id=525413

Your unrelated, bizarre reply >>>> http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=525356&mesg_id=525543

No, you don't have to "fix voids" in MY education, but you've got to do some work on your own. I hope you didn't spend too much on that college degree?

[Ozymanithrax]

12. If they really believed in progress they'd support it...

Clearly, they don't.

[Skittles]

14. what bullshit

[Ozymanithrax]

16. Progress means make and support change not sit around on their ass saying it isn't enough.

They are not progressives, just complainers.

[Skittles]

17. progress means make REAL change, MOVE FORWARD

not tinker with the same shit that fucked us for decades

[Ozymanithrax]

18. Read the bill. It is real progress.

Hell, even Republicans think that. That is why they have made it their mission in life handed down to them by the almighty Christ on fucking winged Chariot (who of course hates that damned socialist bill) to repeal the bill.

It is a sad day when Republicans know what progress is and those on the left don't.

[Skittles]

19. I HAVE READ THE FUCKING BILL

it took me three weeks - I THINK IT STINKS

[demosincebirth]

25. Did you read the "opt out section?" just for you.

[Skittles]

27. I look at the entire bill

it's a piece of shit

[liberation]

35. ... I see the problem here

You didn't read it with the DLC-approved cliff notes and rose colored glasses.

[Mithreal]

46. +1

[demosincebirth]

57. Evidently, you didn't read at length.

[demosincebirth]

22. When the ignorant right wingers vehemently oppose it...I think its good. not great, but good.

[Skittles]

28. it means nothing

if Obama proclaimed that puppies and kittens are cute, repukes would all say NO - their opinion doesn't mean SHIT

[demosincebirth]

58. Of course, to you, everything is shit, in this bill.

[Tansy_Gold]

29. the ignorant right wingers would have vehemently opposed ANYTHING

from the Dems. ANYTHING. They do not care about the substance. Have you listened to any of their rantings lately? Have they made any sense? No, of course not. it's not about making sense. It's just about saying NO. NO to anything from Obama. That's what feeds their know-nothing base, and that's all they care about.

I have two friends who love bougainvilleas, a popular shrub here in the Phoenix area, but neither of them will have one in her yard.

"They're too thorny," grumbles June. "They scratch and poke me every time I get near them. I had one once and I just about bled to death every time I had to trim it."

Marilyn refuses to have any in her yard because "They make such a mess. I get tired of sweeping up the dried up flowers and the leaves all the time. I get enough of that from my neighbor's bougainvilleas and if I had one of my own I'd be sweeping all the time."

Both women have entirely different reasons for disliking the plants, but it would be wrong to say that because June thinks they're too thorny and Marilyn doesn't that Marilyn likes them.

Those of the other party who are opposed to reform measures really don't care about the issues. They'd oppose anything and everything that comes from the Obama administration. They'd oppose the bill if it contained a total ban on abortion, a repeal of all inheritance taxes, voting rights for only white christian males and corporations, and the reinstitution of segregation and slavery.

Does that mean that those of us who still don't think this is a good bill are teabaggers? Hardly.

Nor does it mean that just because the wingers oppose it, we should embrace it. That would be putting party over principle and I thought we were better than that.

I really and truly don't see very much to like in this bill at all. I'm sorry if that means I have to disagree with some democrats, some liberals, and even some progressives. I don't dislike it for the reasons the teabaggers do; I dislike it because I don't think it brings us any closer to true health CARE reform. I agree that it will bring health INSURANCE to a lot of people who didn't have it before; after all, they will be forced to buy it whether they want to or not. I'm not sure that it will make health CARE more available or affordable for anyone who doesn't have it already; I don't think it will, but I could be wrong. I do think it will put much more money and power in the hands of the insurance companies who caused many of the current problems, and I don't believe that's the best way to fix those problems.

"If he's against it, then I'll be for it" is not a good way to play politics. It's called reverse psychology and it worked very very well for Tom Sawyer and Br'er Rabbit.


Tansy Gold, who spent a good portion of the afternoon in her own personal briar patch and has sore, swollen fingers as a result

[pokercat999]

38. From the little I've seen I think if you're healthy you should

pay the fine and save the rest. The fine is much less than insurance will cost after the coming 40-50% increases for the next couple of years. If you are healthy you should pay the fine, save the rest and wait until you have a serious need before buying insurance. The insurance companies cannot refuse coverage (after 2014) or charge more for existing conditions, so pay the fine until you need the insurance. If everyone (that can) does this the insurance companies will soon go out of business.

[GameChanger]

43. If you're over 50 or have a pre-existing condition, you will pay 3 to 4 times as much for insurance

I already couldn't afford the current rates. Subsidies will not help if my premium is 3 times higher because of the above. From what I have read of the bill, I will not get a 3 times bigger subsidies to help pay for my 3 times higher premiums.

Am I missing something?

[demosincebirth]

55. Give me a link directly to your statement. in the HC report. If not,

don't make statements you can't prove. Thats what we do here a DU.

[demosincebirth]

56. Pay the fine and hope, if you get hit by a car, its not your fault.

[truedelphi]

75. Thank you for your analysis.

I see some good things in the bill, but without anyone in office having the will and taking the time to roll back prices, this bill is a budget breaker. Maybe not for the Federal Government, (though I think it will eventually be seen as a drain for the Federal Government too) but certainly for the people.

[eridani]

30. Supporters and opponents alike don't care what is actually in it

The only reality check people are in groups like PNHP.

[midnight]

37. Sadly I have come to realize this seems to be the case. Especially when I hear

the statement that now everyone can be covered? That is if they can afford to buy into the "FOR PROFIT" insurance, and if they don't, they will be having the IRS visit them.

[dflprincess]

68. And "covered" doesn't mean they'll get care

as the many "covered" people who declare bankruptcy because of medical bills can tell you.

[pattmarty]

44. Well that logic is pretty much the same as the RW. The bill is a POS...........

.......and this ruins getting Medicare for all for AT LEAST a generation, if at all.

[Mithreal]

47. You are using batshit crazy as a compass?

[provis99]

50. you are wrong. The Republicans got nearly 1000 amendments into the bill.

They got what they wanted; and no as this bill further destroys the health care system, Republicans can say "See, we didn't vote for the bill! The Democrats did it!"

[wolfgangmo]

63. And the market agrees with you.

Why this will really put the insurance companies in their place. The value of insurance company stock tanked today.


Oh wait - it went up.

[freddie mertz]

40. They don't "sit or their ass and complain" as you so callously put it.

They work hard to promote real HC REFORM.

They tried to participate in the hearings in the Senate but were not allowed to.

When they shoed up anyway, they were arrested and dragged out of the hall.

You need to find out more about people before you insult and mischaracterize them.

PS: Why do you hate single payer?

[Mithreal]

54. +1

For this one, it has become a pattern.

[Mithreal]

53. Yeah, that's it, complainers and whiners.

When I hear the word "complaining," I usually think it is poorly chosen - or - that the person who hears the criticism chooses to remain powerless and has really picked the right word for them.

[nightrain]

21. I guess you know better than Dr Flowers? Your creds?

[Mithreal]

65. Flowers seems the epitome of 21st century world class American.

When some day Americans look back at the history of this civil rights issue in America, I hope we remember she was one of our leaders. I hope for Obama's sake people don't remember he is the one who stood in the way between the angry masses and the wealth care industries. He'll get all the proper respect and more than he deserves for signing the next step, but this wasn't a first step by a long shot.

I like all the hyperbole when it is directed at the Regressives but there needs to be some place we can go and actually speak openly and honestly about what just happened. I get it that the "supporters at all costs" crowd wants to have its moment in the sun, but the adults were supposed to be in charge. We should be able to handle the truth here and not dismiss it.

[dflprincess]

69. Really, what would a doctor (or group of doctors) know about what's wrong

with this bill and the system it is designed to protect? :sarcasm:

[liberation]

33. ... normally us progressives are rather well adjusted as to what the concept of "progress" entitles

we don't go around telling you moderate conservatives what reactionary bills should be? Do we?

[Mithreal]

48. Reminds me of a colorful joke. I don't come to where you work and slap the...

:applause:

[liberation]

67. Yeah, apparently these New Democrats seem to think being a progressive...

... simply involves them appropriating the "progressive" monicker, now that their conservative brand is damaged beyond repair, and re-define it to suit their interests.

This bill is so reactionary in nature, that not a single moderate conservative party in the industrialized world would dare touch with a 20 ft pole a similar bill in their respective countries, lest them be electorally blackballed for a good generation. And here we have people playing all sorts of games trying to pretend this piece of shit bill into the bees knees of liberalism.

I don't care what may or may not happen in the future, I care about the language of the bill as it is right now. And the bill in content and spirit is not liberal nor progressive under any honest and objective point of view. I am tired of people using made up future scenarios and "hope," which is no present in any written from in this bill (or any published roadmap the Dems are willing to commit to), in order to justify the positive aspects of this bill. Well, if my grandma had grown balls... we would have called her grandpa. Alas, she was my dear nonna until she passed away.

It seems that a lot of people in DU seem to equate "potential to do something" with the actual "reality" of having accomplished that something. I am not interested in what coulda/shoulda/woulda when discussing what it is.

[Mithreal]

49. Either with us or against us. Simple thoughts for dummies.

Bush "Fool Me Once..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKgPY1adc0A

I can't get enough Bush type thinking from fellow DU'ers.

[Newest Reality]

13. Considering ...

at least in my memory, that we were thinking Universal Health Care in the beginning, and then seeing how this became Universal Insurance Customer Creation, after hints of "Public Option", the charade and game seem obvious.

It came to the point that there was a lot of contention and angst amongst those on this side of the fence. In other words, those who stuck to the original goal and did not want to compromise, (supplanting actuality with meager hopes for future changes) were then at a odds with those who bought the compromise, better than nothing, pass the bill so we get something, anything out of the momentum.

So, it may be obvious where I am on this side of the fence, but I am hoping that the overall, big picture dynamics of the debacle can be seen for what they are and teach us something about the process for what it is and what it is telling us. In an objective sense, it has been fascinating. Subjectively, it is somewhat onerous and unsettling. When you have millions of people to manipulate, steer and keep in line, you have to do it adeptly using diverse means with the goal of making everything seem like a rational decision on their part and a hard won battle.

Hey, maybe now that the protectionism of the health insurance industry has been assured and dealt with, why don't we move on to genuine reform of health care acees for The People? I mean, that's still a glaring issue, so the time looks right. I say we start the ball rolling with Universal, Single-payer access.

[Skittles]

15. "the charade and game seem obvious"

only to those who pay attention

[bertman]

24. I agree with the OP; however, now that this bill has passed, my hope is that the Democrats

in Congress and the President will be inspired to do even more to make real healthcare reform a reality. That will only result if we, the people, stay on their sorry, corporate-funded asses and make them do the right thing.

To quote a wonderful, patriotic American (my wife): "So now we all get to buy mandatory health insurance that we cannot use because we can't afford to pay the deductibles and copays. I'd love to use my health insurance but I can barely afford to pay for the premiums. We are not poor by any stretch of the imagination, so I'm wondering how those folks who are barely getting by are going to be able to pay."

Rec.

[SocialistLez]

39. Considering how crazy

the right went over this bill and called it a "government take over" :crazy: , I don't think Dems will want to touch health care reform any time soon.

I can't imagine what stops the right will pull when a single-payer bill comes up but I am ready for the fight.

[provis99]

51. Yes, false hope is the foundation of America.

further health insurance reform is gone. This was it. Time to wake up to reality.

[berni_mccoy]

34. The only thing PNHP will support (Single Payer) won't pass with the current Congress.

[provis99]

52. yep. The Congress is against the American people.

95% of them are totally corrupt, living off of health insurance and financial corporation money. so what do we do about it?

[Mithreal]

60. That is entirely untrue for many Dems. Much of it situational, how we fund campaigns.

It's true we have a corporate and conservative wing within our party, but they are the minority that exercises immoderate power and authority.

I am sure most know this, but all this talk online isn't activism though it may prepare and motivate us.

We show up. We make a difference. We make our voices heard. There are obviously many levels of participation. What I am saying is we bring democracy to America and never quit. We upset the comfortable and put those who deal injustice on notice. We do everything peacefully and within our power to create ripples and cut through the clutter that is everyone's life. We rebuild our communities and provide a hand up to those in need. We commit random acts of kindness that make others realize there really is something to the notion that We're In This Together. We tell the truth and risk sounding like fools. There is too much to do, but that's all right, just show up and put yourself out there. Be aggressive and be prepared.

[Mithreal]

59. or President, sorry, bm, it's true

The President has power over the Party purse and don't you deny it.

[Mithreal]

41. The kind of reform we get when people like Lakoff are marginalized and Emanuel anointed

It is important to stand up to the DLC, and to the idea that there is a unitary mainstream center, that they are it, and that progressives are extremists and deserve to be marginalized. - Lakoff from 2007

http://www.truthout.org/article/matt-renner-interview-with-george-lakoff

And many here fight for the folks that always intended and actually are successfully marginalizing Progressives and Progressive values. DU becomes irony sometimes. Underground should be changed to Insider.

[swilton]

45. An act of Desperation

Obama was desperate to prove the Republicons wouldn't have one up on him and so he and his minions accepted anything....Negotiation with the Republicons was fruitless as they wouldn't have supported this any more than they would have supported single payer. Reforming this piece of garbage will be forgotten as the public and its spineless leaders look toward the next crisis to hit the front pages....The celebration in short is an act of grasping at straws.

[JohnWxy]

64. list of organiztions who support the HCR legislation

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x525645

http://www.networklobby.org/press/3-17-10HealthcareSistersLetter.htm

"It will make crucial investments in community health centers that largely serve poor women and children. And despite false claims to the contrary, the Senate bill will not provide taxpayer funding for elective abortions. It will uphold longstanding conscience protections and it will make historic new investments – $250 million – in support of pregnant women."

-- Letter to Congress from organizations representing 59,000 Catholic Sisters

[Mithreal]

66. This form of appeal to authority is unnecessary. We get it.

There were good things in the bill too and that made it better than nothing for many.

[JohnWxy]

81. This is an appeal to individuals who are commited to delivering good health care to people who also

being involved in health care understand a very complex issue far better than the average person.

[Mithreal]

84. Many DU'ers conditionally support the bill with the expectation that improvements soon follow.

Anything that saves lives is going to get a lot of support from individuals and organizations that understand a "very complex issue."

It certainly doesn't hurt anyone to exclude any nuance or other considerations that affected the support of the organizations in the lists either, am I right.

Flowers explained why she didn't support and your response was essentially, well all these organizations do. Do we see their reasoning or just your lists?

It's a disservice of a response, sorry, and I mean that because it doesn't refute Flowers position, and is just an appeal to some sort of authority which you can't deny.

Yeah, you're right, all this stuff is too hard for individuals to understand, must leave it to the pros to tell us how a democracy should function and deliver. All the better when you can try and tell others to fall in line with a list. PO or SP would just be too messy and disruptive. Wtf do average Americans know about what they want anyway, not necessarily directed at you. How much you wanna bet those organizations would have supported something more like Flowers advocates but are willing to do accept whatever saves more lives and is better than nothing? Hmm?

[Mithreal]

72. Kick 4 Flowers.

[pundaint]

74. Maybe this is just more theatre. The Republicans are making such public asses of themselves, it

makes it harder to say the bill is shit because it looks like we agree with their rants. So half the Democratic Party is fired up about a win, and nobody wants to side with the idiots. But, this bill is shit. The downside risks are large and likely, the upside benefits are relatively minor (although, not to the 1% that this will make a genuine difference for), and the only certainty is that money that could otherwise have bought health care will continue to be skimmed off the top by those creating our health care problem in the first place.

[truedelphi]

76. Very well stated. n/t

[nightrain]

77. yes. Thanks for your synopsis! well-stated!!

[andym]

78. Regardless of the currrent bill, PNHP does not support the Public Option Nor a Medicare Buy-In

http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/06/30/starr-reich-and-kuttner-on-the-public-option/
http://pnhp.org/blog/2010/03/12/graysons-public-option-act-or-medicare-you-can-buy-into-act/

From the latter:
"Playing with a Medicare buy-in is an unnecessary diversion at a time that we need to get serious about reform. We need to fix Medicare and expand it to cover everyone. Nothing less will do."

Basically the only progress for PNHP is single-payer. Laudable, but probably not possible until we have a progressive majority/supermajority in Congress.

I disagree and strongly advocate for the Medicare buy-in. Please help Rep Grayson get it done:
http://salsa.mydccc.org/o/30019/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=17

[fatbuckel]

79. We should outlaw Republicans

[JohnWxy]

80. a partial list of organizations supprting HCR bil

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x525645

[Mithreal]

86. Anything that saves lives is hard not to support. You know it.

Anyone who stands on principle needs to have their legs kicked out from under them.

Truth is determined by the majority and the winners.

[Demeter]

82. kick

[JohnWxy]

83. No, you wouldn't support it on any account. That's why you got unrecs. Your being dishonest.

To say this bill is not a step forward is nonsense.

[Mithreal]

85. -1 Please make an attempt to refute.

[Doctor_J]

87. Yesterday a teabagger caller got Thom to admit on the air

that this bill is a tax increase on the working class. :cry: