New Rule: Anyone arguing that we are in Afghanistan for women´s rights..

[Lars77]

Must immediately call for the invasion of every muslim country in the world (except Bahrain), India, China, most of south-east and central Asia, quite a bit of Africa, the carribean and a couple of central American countries.


The womens rights argument is the final straw the pro-war people are clinging on to, like most of them could give a rat´s ass about womens rights anywhere.

I think the way women are treated around the world is absolutely dreadful, and i think that women´s rights is something that is rarely brought up, if ever, at the highest levels of intergovernmental dialogue. I would genuinely like to see Obama and other heads of state press other leaders on this issue.

But to now, after all these years of wasting lives and money, we are supposed to be in Afghanistan to help women? What about the women in Syria? Saudi Arabia? India? The fact is that most countries in the world who arent western democracies have institutionalized the abuse of women. Adam Jones called it "Gendercide" in his book on Genocide. And this is something that has to be worked on.

But i wonder how long the Pentagon estimates that western troops will have to be in Afghanistan, if the goal is to change the institutionalzed abuse of women in this highly religious, poorly educated tribal society.

Anyone wanna guess?

[aquart]

1. Women don't thank us for killing their sons. They take it badly.

And they'll pretty much put up with anything if their children get to grow up. Which we can't guarantee whether we go or stay.

It's time to stop amusing the Russians and leave.

[RaleighNCDUer]

3. Well, we could handle it the Roman way -

kill all the men, take all the women as sex slaves. End of their culture, period.

We are an Empire, right?

[aquart]

6. Even Alexander the Great couldn't manage to do that to them.

[happyslug]

9. He followed Cyrus the Great, Take Afghanistan and then abandon it.

Take Afghanistan then abandon it as you march your army where you want your army to be, the Indus Valley (modern Pakistan). The best way to the Indus Valley from Persia is via Afghanistan and why it has been a popular place to march through (at the same time no one wants to hold it, for except as a highway to some place else Afghanistan no value).

Cyrus's forces stayed a bit longer then Alexander's (most were given land and settled in Pakistan, thus never had to return). Cyrus the Great policy avoided the debacle of Alexander's withdraw from the Indus valley (where he avoided Afghanistan but lost a lot of troops marching through the desert of Baluchistan) but both avoided Afghanistan for it was NOT worth holding (And that was agreed by Genghis Khan and Tamerlane, use it as a highway then abandon it).

[Cleita]

2. I feel bad about how the women in Afghanistan are

treated, however, I didn't notice that the presence of our troops make a difference. When Rachel Maddow went there she was advised to wear a head scarf and there were a garrison load of military surrounding her. I believe that sending in a peace corp, maybe an international one, to build schools for girls will get more results than all the tanks and armies in the world. Thom Hartmann frequently mentions the book "Three Cups of Tea" about an activist who did just that and succeeded in getting the villagers to throw out the Muslim fundamentalists and Taliban on their own wherever he built schools for girls.

[sarge43]

4. Anyone making that argument should be asked what s/he is doing about

the three women each day in this country who are murdered by someone they know. The rapes, the physical and emotional abuse which routinely goes on.

This society has absolutely no business tutting tutting any other society about its treatment of women.

[hedgehog]

14. Not to mention the rape and harrasment of women who are proud members

of our armed forces by their fellow troops!

[sarge43]

15. That too, I'm sorry to say.

I'm waiting on Time's cover pic of a US servicewoman who is the confirm victim of abuse or assault by a US serviceman.

[woodsprite]

5. Last week I went to pick my son up at daycare and I saw

a woman in a full burka picking up her son. Kind of unusual around here, even though we're in a University town with many foreign students. My friend was saying how uncomfortable it made her feel having her daughter in the same classroom. I saw the woman in the morning with her husband. Her husband was dressed in long shorts, open short sleeve shirt, and sandals, her son was in shorts, sandals and a tank top, she was in a head to toe black burka. I don't know how women do it. I don't pretend to understand their obedience to their religious dictates or to their husbands. (If my hubby told me I had to wear that, but he could bebop around in shorts/sandals, I'd whack him with my frying pan, especially during hot flashes!)

I didn't feel afraid like the other mom because we were near someone different from us, but I did feel compassion for the women of that culture who are not afforded the acknowledgement of personhood and pseudo-equality of other cultures. I've had a hard time wrestling with that this week.

[msongs]

7. its pure sexism - since only women have to do it n men can dress/acct anyway they want nt

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

11. that's not true, actually

I'm no fan of Shariah but you might want to do some reading before you make blanket statements like that. Shariah has strict laws of behavior for both genders.

Nothing like a little cultural bias and ignorance, eh?

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

12. yeah, I'm sure she was forced to wear it!

:eyes:

You do realize that the VAST majority of women who wear religious headgear do it from personal choice, correct? You can spout all the racist, culturally biased drivel you want about oppression but the truth is that you believe their culture to be inferior to ours because ours encourages women to dress in exactly the opposite way that theirs does.

[woodsprite]

16. No need to be nasty. And no drivel, I just said I didn't understand it.

I wasn't judging her like the other mother was. I wasn't afraid or felt put upon because my munchkin was in the same class as her boy. Just saying that I don't think I could do it even if my religion dictated it, if it didn't do so for both sexes.

Of course, at our wedding hubby and I only said "love, honor and cherish" not "obey" - since the copy the minister gave us didn't have it in the wording for both husband AND wife. Where at my friend's wedding, the minister went on and on for over an hour about how the wife honors her husband and obeys his every command and that's how it's supposed to be.

[Karenina]

18. Ya know, woodsprite, over here in Yurp the battle over women's wear

is ALL the RAGE!!! When all you have is a hammer, EVERYTHING looks like a nail. :eyes:
The "Burkha Bash" is quite similar to the "Mexican Mash" you're experiencing over there. And TIME magazine has the unmitigated gall to... PLEASE DON'T GET ME STARTED!!! The whole world done lost its damned mind. :crazy: That's MY STORY and I'm sticking to it! :hide:


Here's a man who "got it." Utah Phillips. If your time is limited, just check out 15:30 - 18:50 carefully.

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/5/27/utah_phillips_1935_2008_legendary_folk

Can I get an "A-Men?"

[Karenina]

17. Please don't put your angry words into woodsprite's mouth

It's really not polite.

[Scout]

21. "do it from personal choice"

yes means NOTHING when no is not an option.

[Ratty]

19. I understand it

Like you, I wouldn't go so far as to be afraid to put my kid in the same class, that's ignorance. But the head to toe burka thing is inexcusable. Women may say they do it voluntarily but it's forced on them at a young age in villages and towns where they literally have no choice, and that's how they grow up, in a claustrophobic culture that demands it. Some call it choice but I'll call it what it is: brain washing.

[IndianaGreen]

8. We must also invade the Vatican!

The center of misogyny on the planet.

[Demeter]

10. Lysistrata, Anyone?

The battle of rights for women's autonomy will not be won in our lifetime, but nevertheless, we must work towards that goal.

[truth2power]

13. "Anyone wanna guess?" ...Till the pipelines are built? ....

The women's rights argument is ludicrous. There are plenty of other places around the world where human rights abuses are taking place. We don't give a crap, unless it's a place that has natural resources we want.

[JustAnotherGen]

20. I first became aware

Of the situation for women in Afghanistan in 1994. It came from all places . . . an article in Cosmopolitan (it’s prior to me realizing one should never read Cosmo prior to doing ANYTHING :-) ). I still have that in my ‘clippings of things to write about folder’. Yes – after all of these years.

My thought is – I do indeed feel for these women/females in that country. My cousin is over there (AF) and a friends nephew (Marine) and they have both seen first hand the joy of putting a pen in a 10 year old little girls hand. I get that. I truly do.


However, the time to invade and stay in Afghanistan was 16 years ago. Now? It’s disingenuous and appears to be a smoke screen.

However, I’m not set in this belief. I’m open to other opinions/thoughts.