Where do you stand in the religious debate?

[searchingforlight]

This may be a dupe but appeared in our local paper today. Printed in the New York Times yesterday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/15/opinion/15KRIS.html?th

I think it is a very provocative story and may be the key to the polarization in this country. The numbers are very similar to the polls for popularity of Bush.

<snip>

Americans believe, 58 percent to 40 percent, that it is necessary to believe in God to be moral. In contrast, other developed countries overwhelmingly believe that it is not necessary. In France, only 13 percent agree with the U.S. view. (For details on the polls cited in this column, go to www.nytimes.com/kristofresponds.)

The faith in the Virgin Birth reflects the way American Christianity is becoming less intellectual and more mystical over time. The percentage of Americans who believe in the Virgin Birth actually rose five points in the latest poll.


more -

[DarkPhenyx]

1. Belief in a diety of any stripe...

...is not required to be moral. It has been shown in the last year, in fact, that belief in a diety makes one no more or less moral than non-believers. The Catholic Bishops leap to mind. President BUsh would be another. Anyone remember Osama bin'Laden? I think he believes in a diety.

[searchingforlight]

3. Morality is an automatic assumption if you believe?

I agree that belief is not necessary to moral character but I also think that many people feel that because they believe in a diety they are therefore moral.

I don't think many question the morality of their belief.

[DarkPhenyx]

4. Agreed.

That is the problem with faith. You can't argue faith. "Faith" isn't restricted to just religion either. You can have faith in your political party, your country, your pet political project, any number of things. Even "faith" in secular institutions isn't a guarantee against this particular form of blindness.

I like what they said in "Dogma". Roughly it translates as it is far better to have a "good idea" than "faith".

[greyl]

2. that most are stupid

http://www.thetruereligion.org/allah.htm

Some of the biggest misconceptions that many non-Muslims have about Islam have to do with the word "Allah". For various reasons, many people have come to believe that Muslims worship a different God than Christians and Jews. This is totally false, since "Allah" is simply the Arabic word for "God" - and there is only One God. Let there be no doubt - Muslims worship the God of Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus - peace be upon them all. However, it is certainly true that Jews, Christians and Muslims all have different concepts of Almighty God. For example, Muslims - like Jews - reject the Christian beliefs of the Trinity and the Divine Incarnation. This, however, doesn't mean that each of these three religions worships a different God - because, as we have already said, there is only One True God. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all claim to be "Abrahamic Faiths", and all of them are also classified as "monotheistic". However, Islam teaches that other religions have, in one way or another, distorted and nullified a pure and proper belief in Almighty God by neglecting His true teachings and mixing them with man-made ideas.

First of all, it is important to note that "Allah" is the same word that Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews use for God. If you pick up an Arabic Bible, you will see the word "Allah" being used where "God" is used in English. (Click here to see some examples of the word "Allah" in the Arabic Bible.) This is because "Allah" is the only word in the Arabic language equivalent to the English word "God" with a capital "G". Additionally, the word "Allah" cannot be made plural or given gender (i.e. masculine or feminine), which goes hand-in-hand with the Islamic concept of God. Because of this, and also because the Qur'an, which is the holy scripture of Muslims, was revealed in the Arabic language, some Muslims use the word "Allah" for "God", even when they are speaking other languages. This is not unique to the word "Allah", since many Muslims tend to use Arabic words when discussing Islamic issues, regardless of the language which they speak.

[Equinox]

16. Thank you for the information...

I think there are many who don't realize this.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

18. Very well put!

I hated it when I heard an interview with a Texas teenager/cheerleader who was opposed to allowing an imam to pray before a football game because he'd invoke "that idol" Allah. Such ignorance of the faith of Islam is astounding, yet widespread in this country.

[LiberalFighter]

21. There is a difference

The Jews believe in one god and no other.

The Muslims believe in one god and that Muhammed is a prophet.

The Christians believe in a father, a holy spirit, and a christ. The focus is on christ as god when the god in the Old Testament demanded that there shall be no other gods.

Personally, I find that religions are no more than a means of controlling people to do what they want to be done. It was how order was maintained within their community.

[FloridaPat]

5. I sure would like to see the rest of the poll.

I don't believe a person has to believe in God to be moral. One could almost take the opposite side - one has to believe in God to be immoral.

I do find it strange they went after the virgin birth. Why not the belief that Jesus rose from the dead, walked around for 3 days, and then his body went up to heaven. The interesting thing about the bvigin birth is that it is also a belief of the Muslim and Baha'i Faiths. But not the resurrection.

Or maybe the belief that the right wing is bringing this country back to morallity by getting rid of abortions and dirty movies while bring back endless wars.

[searchingforlight]

7. Here is one of the polls mentioned.

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=167

Here is another slightly related.

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=359

[bloom]

12. From the poll in post #7

"One of the more intriguing findings is that not all people who call themselves Christians believe all the conventional Christian beliefs. For example, one percent of Christians do not believe in God, 8% do not believe in the survival of the soul after death, 7% do not believe in miracles, 5% do not believe in heaven, 7% do not believe in the Virgin birth and 18% do not believe in hell.

Even more surprising is that some people who say they are not Christian believe in the resurrection of Christ (26%) and the Virgin birth, Jesus born of Mary (27%)."


also - in another table:

80% of adults (87% of Republicans and 78% of Democrats) believe in The resurrection

77% of adults (86% of Republicans and 73% of Democrats) believe in the virgin birth

90% of adults (93% of Republicans and 90% of Democrats) believe in God

31% of adults (19% of Republicans and 40% of Democrats) believe in Astrology

Democrats were also more likely to believe in Reincarnation and Ghosts and less likely than Republicans to believe in Hell and the Devil

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=359

[bloom]

13. Independents tended to fall closer:

in their statistics to Democrats than to Repupblicans.

Although - there really is not all THAT MUCH difference in beliefs, anyway. The most difference was in The Virgin birth, Hell, The devil, Astrology, & Reincarnation.

[nedlogg]

6. I believe in the 11th commandment

11. Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.

[DarkPhenyx]

8. I thought that was number 12.

Isn't 11 Thou shalt not take thine own ass too seriosly?

If Mel Brooks hadn't dropped that damn 3rd tablet we'd all be so much better off. I have it good authority that God saved the best for last in that instance.

[bloom]

9. for yesterday's discussion on this see:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=180487

[Birthmark]

10. Interestingly...

Atheists have a much lower incarceration rate than *any* stripe of Christianity. The same holds true for divorce rate, too -- though I believe the Catholic divorce rate is as low. So, if lawbreaking and divorce may be used to determine morality, then atheists are some of the most moral people in America. :)

[DavidMS]

11. I would suspect...

that an inerrant belief in a perticular religious book makes it harder for one to behave moraly because there are all these little rules to follow! As a result the "true believer" will worry about the little things (like the proper way to wipe themsevles) as opposed to big ones (how do I reduce poverty from a structural standpoint).

[HawkerHurricane]

14. Grain of Salt warning

Prisoners know that most parole boards look favorably on Bible beleiving Christians prisoners, therefore that's what they profess to believe...
It's easier to say you are a Christian than to actually change your beliefs.
(I still say that there are few athiests in prison, but I could be wrong)

[Equinox]

15. Wow...

I'm an unpracticing Catholic and I have respect for all religions. I just don't believe that anything touch by man can still be pure. I worhip in the comfort of my own home and without interference from a priest or clergy. My union with God is personal. I recieve his messages in a way that I can understand and if I get it wrong, well my God knows that I'm human and he/she is just and fair.

This is interesting:

Americans are three times as likely to believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus (83 percent) as in evolution (28 percent).

Now, I don't understand how anyone can ignore hard core fact.

This is very interesting:

But mostly, I'm troubled by the way the great intellectual traditions of Catholic and Protestant churches alike are withering, leaving the scholarly and religious worlds increasingly antagonistic. I worry partly because of the time I've spent with self-satisfied and unquestioning mullahs and imams, for the Islamic world is in crisis today in large part because of a similar drift away from a rich intellectual tradition and toward the mystical. The heart is a wonderful organ, but so is the brain.

There has to be a balance. Morality doesn't confine itself to religion. One can't stick one's head in the sand and ignore scientific discovery for the false hope of hanging on to something that could be proven false. I don't believe God would have wanted us to do that. My opinions of course.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

17. My argument with the article,

is the term "mystic" used to describe ideas which are purely dogmatic. Mysticism is based on direct experience with God, not on any creed or tenet. Mystics I have met are extremely tolerant of others, and not dogmatic at all-they tend to see that all roads lead to the Source.

That aside, I'd say that many of the people of this country have been looking for something they have not found in mainline churches. Unfortunately, many have decided to settle for the emotional manipulation offered by many evangelical churches. These churches offer the answers to all their questions so they don't have to think for themselves. The danger of this is when the power mongers who head these churches decide to go into the political arena.

[Martin Eden]

19. The heart is a wonderful organ, but so is the brain.

That excellent last sentence in Kristoff's article goes to the HEART of the matter as it relates to religion and politics in America.

Too many people in this country substitute faith for critical thought. Just as they defer to their church in matters of divine truth, many have invested similar belief in the political party that has claimed for itself the mantle of religion and morality.

The polls cited in Kristoff's article refer to religious beliefs, but other polls indicate that high percentages of Americans believe that Saddam Hussein was behind the September 11 attacks and that WMD have been found in Iraq. Facts and evidence are less important than the secure belief that their president is the standard bearer for God and country.

The Republican Party, on the most basic psychological level, wins converts by playing upon deep-seated fears. Fear of terrorism, fear of crime, fear of eroding family values, religion, and morality. Intellectual arguments pointing out that the Bush foreign policy incites more terrorism and that his domestic agenda will make things increasingly more difficult for working families falls on deaf ears when hearts have been co-opted and brains turned off.

This great country of ours was founded upon religious freedom but it was also founded upon the separation of church and state, and the fundamental premise that the success of our democracy depends upon an informed electorate. When a political party associates itself so strongly with a religious movement -- and when it plays upon fear and fosters ignorance through allies in the corporate media -- then our democracy is in trouble indeed.

Kristoff and others have noted that we are entering a new era of religious awakening. That's all fine and good, but it also needs to be an age of reason. To be successful, we must demonstrate that the two are not incompatable.

[Equinox]

20. Excellent post, Martin Eden...

very well said.