PAR-a-NOI-a WILL de-STROY ya

[i_am_not_john_galt]

I'm new to this board, and to political activism in general, and I have to say there are a few of you who have worked yourselves into a lather that makes Zapruder film buffs seem boring. Over the past few days I've read:
- LIHOP: "They" knew 9-11 would happen but let it happen anyway as a pretext to take over the Arab world. Even today none of "them" (including not only the dark cabal of Neocons, but NORAD and the press as well) has spilled the beans on this.
- MIHOP: "They" actually engineered 9-11 with controlled demolition, missles fired into the Pentagon, etc.
- The Draft: "They" are already printing the cards, coming to a post office near you in 2005
- The Election: "They" not only stole the election in 2001 (through an amazing matrix of careful plots designed to look like normal bureaucratic incompetence, not to mention a democratic candidate who LOST HIS FRIGGIN HOME STATE), but "they" also engineering a foolproof and impossible-to-detect way to steal every coming election.
- Biologists: "They" are killing all the biologists

My question is not to debate the validity of these conspiracies, because that is well covered elsewhere. Rather I am interested in what effect you think this conspiracy-filled worldview will have on the race. Dean already had to back off from admitting he had even READ about the 9-11 conspiracies. Will any candidate promote these views? If not are they complicit in the silence? If so will your friends and neighbors vote for them?

[Solomon]

1. I see you took

the blue pill. :smoke:

[POed_Ex_Repub]

2. I'm not much for conspiracies...

I think inevitably it will be the job market that does shrub in. (not any of these theories)

[specimenfred1984]

3. Chimp was Briefed on 9-11 type attacks so...

that's not even in the conspiracy category, more like in the ignorant, greedy drunk vacationing fratboy category.

The draft will or won't happen, it's not a conspiracy either.

Florida kept 50+ thousand eligible voters off the roles, not a conspiracy, a proven fact.

Finally, it goes without saying that dems don't support conspiracies, they support reality. The reality about 9-11 is that the Office of Special Plans lied to almost everyone about Iraqs connection to it and Bush* has obstructed investigations into who really attacked the US on 9-11. The problem for people like Kerry is that he has admitted he believed the lies and that makes him look dumb.

Not as dumb as some people though.

[thebigidea]

4. still, it all seems a lot more sensible than Ayn Rand

[AndyTiedye]

5. It's Not Paranoia if They Are Really Out to Get You

[i_am_not_john_galt]

14. Hence the "not" in my name

[lostnfound]

6. Compared to "Bill & Hillary are Satan" beliefs, they aren't simple enough.

Spreading evil propaganda about Bill & Hillary has been terrifically successful for the right wing. My two ordinary non-fire-breathing secretaries used to become hostile and speechless at the name "Clinton" and at least one can recite Clinton body-count examples pretty thoroughly.

(Sorry, ladies, if you're out there listening. But hey, I had to suffer through the Supreme Court appointment of Shrub with a modicum of grace and dignity, so we all have moments of misery.)

[SpiralHawk]

7. Did you really read, Paranoia?

Did you follow the threads?

If you did, you would not pose your questions -- for you would know the answer.

If you have not really done your homework, then follow the 9/11 Timeline. And then you will have more questions - but not for "us" -- for the BFEE.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/

[i_am_not_john_galt]

15. I've read 'em all

and they're no more impressive than TWA 800 or any of the nutty right-wing conspiracies of the Clinton years.

[lostnfound]

8. PS Read "Into the Buzzsaw" -- essays by award winning journalists

about what happened when they tried to write about or investigate certain taboo topics.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1573929727/002-9854520-0539261?v=glance

Includes essays by the journalists themselves who tried to write about the rigged election in Florida, CIA drug-running by former-CIA-agent-turned-journalist, Monsanto & bovine growth hormones. Also interesting was the death-by-publisher book on the Dupont family (it even has a name "privishing" -- private publishing to kill a book).

[Junkdrawer]

9. Nah, it's the culture of National Security "Top Secrecy" NOT "conspiracy".

Generally speaking, "conspiracy theorist" is an ad hominem applied to those who question the very well documented "top secret" efforts of the powers that be.

[kentuck]

10. What a bunch of baloney....

Nobody is more "paranoid" than George W Bush and this Administration. But, if I had been asleep at the wheel while terrorists attacked our country, I would be paranoid also.

[RedSock]

11. in the words of gore vidal

In the words of Gore Vidal:

"'Conspiracy stuff' is now shorthand for unspeakable truth."

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,819931,00.html

[Q]

12. IgNOR-ANCE=wILL-rOT-YER-BrAIN

- I see...you don't want to 'debate' the validity of any theory...just to spread around RWing talking points.

- A bit of advice: if you expect to get anywhere...you're going to have to at least defend your positions. Giving your opinion is not enough.

[i_am_not_john_galt]

16. All of these are amply debated elsewhere

and I've contributed my opinions - namely that all of these, plus the golden oldies of the Clinton years (Mena, Flight 800, Ron Brown as the shadow president, etc) can be explained far more reasonably as the confluence of:
- randomness
- incompetence
- Malfeasance on the part of individuals or very tight, small groups

The candidates have so far completely distanced themselves from the conspiracy theories I've listed above. Given their access to the citizenry that makes them either:
- Passively complicit in the conspiracy by keeping the silence
- Ignorant, even negligent, in not reading up on the theories and forming an opinion
- Agnostic, believing that the truth is unknowable and therefore of too little importance to discuss

OR, they've looked at the AMAZING, IMPOSSIBLE TO DISMISS OR EXPLAIN BY ANY OTHER MEANS evidence and decided that there is NO conspiracy, just the usual string of coincidence that accompanies large events with many participants.

As I do not generally subscribe to conspiracy theories, I put option 1 out of consideration. None of the candidates if they believed these theories would keep silent (nor are they members of the Trilateral commission). I don't think they are ignorant or agnostic either. I think they've looked at the evidence and rejected it.

Dean's point that got so twisted in media was that by failing to open the findings of the investigation (IMHO to hide appalling garden-variety incompetence) Bush was feeding the nutty conspiracy theories. He in no way said he ascribed to them.

By my unscientific counting, 20% or more of the threads in this forum swirl around the various conspiracy theories listed above. My question for this thread is "What is the effect of this on the general presidential race?"

[Q]

17. You're trying to make this about Dean...

...and it has nothing to do with him. It's about responsibility and accountability and whether Bush* is above the law.

[TahitiNut]

13. "In God We Trust" ... and "Trust But Verify"

Secrecy and opacity in governance is inherently evil. To the degree that any candidate believably promotes open government processes, that candidate will benefit. To the degree that the propagandists favoring paternalistic "trust me" opacity are able to malign and attack such candidates, cockroaches who favor dark, damp 'privacy' as a ruling perquisite but not as a human right will escape necessary fumigation.

The prevalence of "conspiracy theories" is directly proportional to the degree of opacity in governance. It's not an accident. Nor is there anything imaginary about conspiracies ... they're the most common activities of power-brokers and businessmen. When they're called meetings, conferences, cooperation, coordination, collaboration, agreements, or strategies, we tend to dismiss them as "business as usual."

It has been validly observed, by both the right and the left, that this madministration is the most secretive and opaque in many years ... possibly the foremost in our history in times of "peace." From a political ideology that rejects the privacy rights of a woman regarding pregnancy but condones and legitimizes "privacy" as a perquisite of corporations and public servants, our principle (as aptly characterized by a Republican President) of government "of the People, by the People, and for the People" is inherently jeopardized.

Any candidate able to puncture the meniscus of corporate media and deliver this perspective to the voters will benefit.


A true "Patriot Act" would not erode the privacy rights of people and amplify the intrusiveness of governance ... a true "Patriot Act" would amplify the privacy rights of people and abolish secrecy and opacity in governance.

We're going in exactly the wrong direction. The abysmal absence of clear and convincing evidence to the contrary of a plethora of "conspiracy theories" is apt demonstration of "where there's (conspiracy) smoke, there's (corruption) fire."

[sendero]

18. Well said

If Bush* wants to get rid of the 'conspiracy theories', he could start by refraining from hamstringing every single investigation into 911.

This hamstringing is generally accompanied by the lamest possible excuses, so excuse me if I believe there is a reason for all the secrecy and obstruction.

PS - and it damn sure isn't about 'preserving the discretion of the executive branch', something Bush*-like pukes spent the last 8 years fighting against...

[Individualist]

19. Willful ignorance

paralyzes the brain. There are too many people who accept the propoganda spouted by Faux, CNN, etc. If some of these took the time to learn facts instead, they'd find it enlightening. Others would remain willfully ignorant, dismissing the facts because they don't conform to their beliefs or party loyalty.

[ellie]

20. As for the draft,

Friday, I received from the Selective Service System, a Potential Board Member Information Sheet which I am to complete and return. Upon receipt, my application will be processed and a Selective Service Reserve Force Officer will be contacting me for an interview. I had signed up on the Internet a couple of months ago.

This means that the Selective Service is reinstating draft boards. Why would they do that? Let's think about that for a minute. It's been 30-odd years since they stopped the draft and suddenly, they decide to reinstate draft boards.

Let's make the leap to critical thinking, shall we? They must be doing it for their health (sarcasm off)

[i_am_not_john_galt]

21. Conspiracy Theory test

See if your favorite conspiracy theory can top THIS string of AMAZING, INCONTROVERTABLE FACTS:

Abraham Lincoln was elected to Congress in 1846.
John F. Kennedy was elected to Congress in 1946.

Abraham Lincoln was elected President in 1860.
John F. Kennedy was elected President in 1960.

The names Lincoln and Kennedy each contain seven letters.

Both were particularly concerned with civil rights.

Both wives lost their children while living in the White House.

Both Presidents were shot on a Friday.

Both were shot in the head.

Lincoln's secretary, Kennedy, warned him not to go to the theatre.
Kennedy's secretary, Lincoln, warned him not to go to Dallas.

Both were assassinated by Southerners.

Both were succeeded by Southerners.

Both successors were named Johnson.

Andrew Johnson, who succeeded Lincoln, was born in 1808.
Lyndon Johnson, who succeeded Kennedy, was born in 1908.

John Wilkes Booth was born in 1839.
Lee Harvey Oswald was born in 1939.

Both assassins were known by their three names.

Both names are comprised of fifteen letters

Booth ran from the theater and was caught in a warehouse.
Oswald ran from a warehouse and was caught in a theater.

Booth and Oswald were assassinated before their trials.

And, as far as I can tell, this was BEFORE PNAC!??

[RandomKoolzip]

22. Now that's just stupid.

C'mon, don't insult our intelligence, our yours. If you think that we're just paranoid freaks, hide the threads you don't like. And what we are speculating on has nothing to do with the presidential race, so don't bother going down that road.


Now here's something for you to chew on:

Can you name one single conservative or right-wing politician who has died an untimely death under suspicious circumstances?

[i_am_not_john_galt]

23. Dunno if this will suffice

http://www.daywilliams.com/clinton-related_deaths.html

Well, off to work. Does anyone care to comment on why the candidates (or awesome senators like my own Dianne Feinstein (member of the Select Committee on Intelligence) don't subscribe to these theories?

[Minstrel Boy]

24. Mena drug smuggling and "the boys on the track" is no fantasy,

but it's an aspect of the Iran/Contra/Cocaine story, and implicates Bush Sr and the CIA more than Clinton, who was merely Governor of Arkansas.

And Foster's death is suspicious, but that isn't to say "Hillary did it." It has the fingerprints of BCCI all over it.

[RandomKoolzip]

25. "Clinton related Deaths" is a notoriously lame e-mail

that has been debunked by snopes.com. I can't believe somebody on a liberal website would even bring that up. Clinton, a Dem, was despised by the intelligence community, the only kind of organization that could help him carry out and cover up these "murders." So why would they help him?

I will repeat my query:

Can ANYONE name ANY conservative politician/public figure who has died an untimely death under suspicious circumstances?

[i_am_not_john_galt]

26. In case it's not obveous

I don't subscribe to the clinton deaths conspiracy theories either.

[leesa]

27. Dianne Feinstein is a terrible Senator. Her husband made lots of

money on the war she voted for. She works WITH the BFEE.

[i_am_not_john_galt]

28. OMG - She's one of "THEM"??!?

You are saying that DF is part of LIHOP or MIHOP? She's complicit by her silence in the murder of 3000 innocents because of her husband's business interests?

[Minstrel Boy]

29. nice misrepresentation for the sake of ridicule

Being compromised by a corrupt system is not the same as being a co-conspirator.

[leesa]

31. I have no idea if she's part of LIHOP, but it wouldn't surprise me if she

was. She has supported every Bush misadventure since he was selected by the Supreme Court. When I did my civic duty and wrote to her to complain about the stolen election, her response was "forget about it". Since that time she has gone along with everything the Chimpster has wanted. So, yes, she is one of them.

[Military Brat]

32. Please take your laptop and get off the commode

You aren't interested in serious discourse. You're just having a jolly good time playing the RW devil's advocate.

Nice try. No cigar.

[SpiralHawk]

30. Poppy Bush was top of the shit heap back in those days

http://www.totse.com/en/conspiracy/mena/

Tons of cocaine were flown into the airport in Mena, Arkansas by Barry Seal, a CIA operative, and possibly others. Barry was immune to prosectution due to his connections in the George Bush White House and the CIA.

We'll probably never know the full story of what happened in Mena, but what we do know is incredible.

[Terwilliger]

33. If you're not at least a little paranoid, you're not paying attention

and they STILL haven't settled all the questions