I hate to play the cynic yet again...

[vi5]

But does anyone think that this O'Neill story is going to matter worth a damn to anyone outside of people who already hate Bush? I honestly can't see this getting all that much press beyond the inevitable "Disgruntled former employee spin". There have already been ex advisors or cabinet members or whatever who have said more or less what O'Neill is saying.

For christ's sake if we as a country can't give proper legs to a story about the administration purposely releasing the name of an undercover cia agent to settle a vendetta then do people honestly think this is going to sink in any more and/or make a dent in the already numb public conscsiousness?

Please, convince me I don't have reason to be cynical. Because at this point I'm not sure I see any. How many times am I going to get my hopes up and believe as I have heard on these pages "The tide is turning!!!!!" "This one is REEEAALLLLY going to do the administration in!!!" I just feel like I'm the boy who cried wolf at this point.

[Cleita]

1. Other than the fact that maybe more than fifty percent of

the voters in America probably hate Bush, I don't know.

[governmentgoodies]

2. Voters in America Hating Bush

:smoke:

Got a source on that poll?

gg

[madrchsod]

8. over 50% of the voters

did not want bush to be president. then add the republican who realize bush has screwed them ,hell i`d say maybe 55+% of the American voters don`t like him. of course there are people who hate bush but that`s a waste of karma on such an insignificant person

[governmentgoodies]

9. I'll chalk that up to a "No"...

:smoke:

...on a source for that poll.

*sighs*

gg

[Timefortruth]

12. Can you give an example a major policy where this administration

has been honest?

*sighs*

(you guys have yet to give an example)

[Timefortruth]

15. Man you guys are predictable!

I'll keep waiting.

[Timefortruth]

10. What percentage of the nation supports Bush?

That would be interesting to know also

[governmentgoodies]

20. "What percentage of the nation supports Bush?"

:evilfrown:

Unfortunately, Timefortruth...according alcuno's link, the most recent CNN/Gallup Poll says...

"What percentage of the nation supports Bush?"
1/2-5/04 Favorable 65% Unfavorable 35%


The Zogby poll is a slightly better...
12/15-17/03 Favorable 59%
Unfavorable 37%
Don't Know 3%

gg

[alcuno]

14. How about this poll.

http://www.pollingreport.com/bush.htm

50% said that the words "cares about people like you" don't apply to Mr. Bush. I don't think that anyone has or will poll "Bush-hatred."

[governmentgoodies]

18. Thanks, alcuno!

:toast:

For the link to a CNN/Gallup Poll.

Let's see...this poll says several things:

1) " Cares about the needs of people like you"
49% Yes 50% No as of 11/03

2) " Is in touch with the problems ordinary Americans face in their daily lives"
42% Yes 57% No as of 11/03

3) "Do you think the White House is or is not fully cooperating with this investigation?"
39% Is 41% Is Not 20% Don't Know

I agree with your assertion that there will not be a poll about "Bush Hatred." So instead of making "off the cuff" remarks about the electorate "hating him", let's focus on what our candidates can be making issues of.

It appears that the electorate is ambivalent about Bush's concern of their needs(1). They also believe he's out of touch (2). And most damning, he's not cooperating with the investigation Justice department investigations (3). These are the areas that Bush is vulnerable on and that's what we'll see our nominee focus on.

gg

[alcuno]

19. You are welcome, gg and Welcome to DU, as well.

This is that CNN/Gallup poll. We often see their "support" numbers but rarely these more internal numbers. The 57% "out of touch" number is very high. I agree that we need to stick with the facts, as much as polls can be counted as facts.

[governmentgoodies]

21. Polls as "Facts"

:hi:

Polls are indeed subject to methodology problems but we have to have something to support our assertions otherwise we sort of look like freaks.

gg

[are_we_united_yet]

24. WE huh

I don't think so.

[governmentgoodies]

25. Okay.

:freak:

Fine. Don't debate with facts. Leave 'em out. Hamstring your arguments. I happen to believe we can win more arguments with them, however.

gg

[vi5]

6. But they don't. At any given point...

40% will hate him no matter what. 40% will love him no matter what. ANd the other 20% usually just have their head in the sand either way and don't pay attention to a lot of this stuff.

[ShimokitaJer]

3. Despite all the crap the media spreads about the "divided electorate"

there are any number of people in this country who don't feel all that strongly about either party. They may vote out of the habit of party loyalty, or based on personality, or on a whim, but the vast majority of people in this country are not rabidly partisan. If they were, the media sliming of Gore would not have been effective, since it would have been nothing more than preaching to the converted.

Bush managed to get himself elected through an image of honesty, approachability, and simple integrity, and he managed to keep his approval rating high through appeals to fear and empty patriotism. The buildup of lies may never convert the rabid right wingers from their GOP roots, but it will certainly have an effect on the majority of people in this country, who will never again associate Bush with honesty or integrity.

The tide HAS turned.

[alcuno]

4. Republican loyalty lies with their politicians, not their fellow citizens.

This is not going to do them in because they believe in "George W. Bush, right or wrong."

I actually find Republicans to be hopelessly gullible and Republican men, in particular, quite willing to be lied to over and over again. I think they actually like it. It reminds me of a scene from "An Officer and a Gentleman" where Richard Gere is getting swatted on the behind while chanting, "Thank you sir, may I please have another."

[kentuck]

5. But this time there is a Pulitzer Prize reporter with the documents....

that's a huge difference. Documents................documents..........documents.........

[Obamarama]

7. I agree, vi5.....

I would so LOVE to think this will make a difference.

The fact is, our fellow Americans are too self-involved or just flat out too stupid to comprehend the significance of what O'Neill layed out.

Color me cynical along with you, but it's the sad, unmistakable truth.

[Th1onein]

11. Color me idealistic, but.......

I think that this will make a difference if WE make it make a difference. It takes every one of us, individually and together, to make it become a big deal. Raise proverbial hell; shout it from the mountaintops. This CAN become the critical mass, but it's going to take us to make it so.

I noticed on the AOL boards that after one guy posted for weeks at a time about the Valerie Plame incident, it FINALLY aired on a major news program. Maybe that one guy wasn't the entire reason it finally broke, but there is no doubt in my mind, it was a part of it.

[Darwin2002]

13. unless saddam had oral sex with bush and O'neill reports on that,

his book will be dismissed by everyone. Bush would have to shoot someone in the rose garden to get anyone to report anything bad about. stop dreaming folks, this one, like everything else is going nowhere. sigh

[Catfish]

16. I understand your pain,

I'm feeling cynical as well but hope I'm wrong.

[UTUSN]

17. Again? n/t

[KG]

22. i don't think you're being cynical.

this incident will go nowhere because the dems will again fail to act like an opposition party.

[Poiuyt]

23. If this doesn't do it, nothing will

But as long as bush/rove control the media, it will be hard to convince the great unwashed that this is truly an evil administration. Just like Hitler and Goebbels understood the importance of the media, so too does bush...and he uses it masterfully.

[hellhathnofury]

26. As the only person so far in this thread with cynical in their name...

I've got hope for this one. Could be the straw that breaks the camels back.

He can't keep taking credibility hits like this and still maintain trust.

Edit: Okay now I'm cynical. I checked the websites of NYT, WP and LAT. Nothing on them about it. Damn.