Greens on No-Fly list? How long before it's you?

[Iverson]

How many months before progressive Democrats get the same treatment? Is bipartisanship worth it now? An excerpt follows.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14884
http://zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=43&ItemID=4805

At one point during his interrogation, Stuber asked if they really believed the Greens were equal to al Qaeda. Then they showed him a Justice Department document that actually shows the Greens as likely terrorists – just as likely as al Qaeda members. Stuber was released just before 1 PM, so he still had time to catch the later flight.

The agents walked Stuber to the Delta counter and asked that he be given tickets for the flight so that he could make his connections. The airline official promptly printed tickets, which relieved Stuber, who assumed that the Secret Service hadn't stopped him from flying. Wrong! By the time Stuber was about to board, officer Stanley once again ushered him out the door and told him: "Just go to Greensboro, where they don't know you, and be totally quiet about politics, and you can make it to Europe that way."

In Greensboro, after Stuber showed his passport he was told that he could not fly overseas or domestically. Undeterred, he next traveled an hour-and-a-half to Charlotte. In Charlotte, the same thing happened. Then Stuber drove three hours to his home after 43 hours of trying to catch a flight.

[ikojo]

1. This has been going since 2001

Nancy Oden a Green from Maine was kept off a plane in November 2001 (she was on her way to a Greens meeting in Chicago) and told it was because she was on a no fly list. She did not make it to the meeting in Chicago by the way.

Here is a link to a story from In These Times from 2002:

http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/27/02/feature3.shtml

"Others, like the Green Party’s Nancy Oden, have reported being detained by armed soldiers, or, like Green Party leader Doug Stuber, questioned by Secret Service agents, sometimes at such length that they missed their flights. In most cases, they ultimately were permitted to fly to their destinations."

Remember, although many people on DU may not like Greens, after the pugs have marginalized the Greens (with Democratic help) they will come full force after the Democrats and anyone who dares to think left of center.

[Q]

2. So much for the Constitution/Bill of Rights...

...and another example of the fascists rise to power in America: restriction of travel by 'enemies of the state'.

[dusty64]

3. Why does this not

surprise me at all. Where is the Green party on this and why hasn't nader had anything to say about it?

[Iverson]

4. about that blithe dismissal ...

Why doesn't that surprise me at all?
See, two can play at that game. Unfortunately, it gets us nowhere. Thanks for your thoughtful contribution.

[library_max]

17. Not a dismissal, not on my part anyway.

This is the first I've heard of it, and it infuriates me. Why isn't more hell being raised? Why has there not been a HUGE lawsuit?

Your original point, that this is a bell that tolls for all of us, is well taken. The "when they came for . . . " quote, too familiar to repeat here, is apropos.

[Iverson]

21. You know ...

... I'm really glad to read that as your reaction. Thanks.

[library_max]

24. Welks.

And, entirely seriously, isn't the party or somebody contemplating a lawsuit? Grounding somebody because of a purely domestic political affiliation cuts pretty close to the First Amendment bone, doesn't it?

[dusty64]

34. And your wonderfully

intelligent reply. I generally don't feel the need to respond to attacks, but let me explain very sloooooooowly. I find this story extremely disturbing, yet I'm not surprised it has not made the news or been picked up on by our Demcratic "leadership" ( I've come to expect it). Sorry, three years of this shit will do that to ya, outrage after crime after scandal nothing changes.

Yes, we've been slipping into dictatorship since jr. hit the trifecta and it doesn't shock me a bit that citizens are now being profiled according to their political views (kinda knew it all along thats why I've ALWAYS opposed it). The silence of the third parties however does astonish me particularly when they are criminalizing members of their party, so once again where are the Greens on this? Is this post more acceptable to you, cause I could hardly sleep thinking I'd disappointed you.

[Iverson]

36. piffle

Let me answer you very sloooooowly: repackaging snide dismissal doesn't help a lot.

A cursory glance at the platform and positions tells us the bloody obvious answer about where the Green Party stands on this one. If for you the importance of the issue does rests with a third party presenting specific documents to satisfy a hostile audience, then there's not much I can do for you.

"... cause I could hardly sleep thinking I'd disappointed you."

You'll sleep better when the need for rhetorical one-upmanship diminishes.

[Q]

5. Restricting ANY American's right to travel...

...should be a concern to all citizens of the United States.

- It should be obvious that the Bush* administration can put anyone on the 'no travel' list they feel is a threat...not to national security...but to their base of power.

[meow2u3]

15. Bushco's definition of "national security issue"

Anything or anybody that poses a threat to their grip on power!

[The Zanti Regent]

6. Nader only cares about Nader!

He used the Green Party to get his pal the Chimp elected.

He doesn't care who he steps on or hurts to get his way. He abuses people like my nephew, who lies in Walter Reed, a quadraplegic with his spine severd by an Iraqui bullet.

Al Gore would not have done that to my 23 year old nephew, but Nader did!

[Iverson]

7. For god's sake, don't address the issue!

I urge you to engage in a flame fest about Nader, while letting the radical right completely off the hook. And please, not one whisper about the no fly list or the essential question of this thread!

[Q]

8. What the hell does that have to do with restricting the rights of...

...Americans to freely travel? Will this only become a concern to you when Democrats are restricted from traveling?

- It amazes me that so many Americans don't seem to care that the Bushies are pissing on our Constitution...and getting away with it. What will it take for them to finally wake the hell up?

- This is about POLITICS and nothing more. Should the Bushies be able to restrict the movement of those who have broken no laws?

[HFishbine]

23. Clark Supporters

Cannot take the right side of this issue.
-------------
Retired Gen. Wesley K. Clark helped an Arkansas information company win a contract to assist development of an airline passenger screening system, one of the largest surveillance programs ever devised by the government.

Starting just after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, Clark sought out dozens of government and industry officials on behalf of Acxiom Corp., a data powerhouse that maintains names, addresses and a wide array of personal details about nearly every adult in the United States and their households, according to interviews and documents.

Clark, a Democrat who declared himself a presidential candidate 10 days ago, joined Acxiom's board of directors in December 2001. He earned $300,000 from Acxiom last year and was set to receive $150,000, plus potential commissions, this year, according to financial disclosure records. He owns several thousand shares of Acxiom stock worth more than $67,000.

Clark's consulting role at Acxiom puts him near the center of a national debate over expanded government authority to use personal data and surveillance technology to fight the war on terrorism and protect homeland security.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A7380-2003Sep26?language=printer

[KG]

12. this thread is about nader, how?

the RW maniacs are putting an all out attack on civil rights in this country, and the best you can reply with is your tired mantra?

how productive!

[cprise]

19. More accurately, Clark only cared about $$$ when he was pushing for this

Him and his Acxiom pals are probably doing more to get Bush re-elected than any 3rd-party candidate could.

[Lars39]

9. And with this article from LBN, our borders will be closing for some:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=309764

[Cat Atomic]

10. Why the hell hasn't this been more widely reported?

This guy got a no-fly list simply because he's a Green? That's so amazingly fucked up that I don't even know where to begin ranting.

And beyond that- how did they even know he was a Green? I know it says he ran the North Carolina campaign in 2000, so he'd obviously be visible- but are we talking about voting records or something?

But oh no- comparing Bush to Hitler is SO ridiculous and offensive.

[OldEurope]

11. Perhaps you should invitate a Greenie from Europe and

see what will happen: German minister of foreign affairs not allowed to fly?

[ShimokitaJer]

13. This is outrageous

I can not believe they are getting away with this. Of course, in an era of "free speech zones," American citizens being carted away in the middle of the night, and anti-terrorist legislation used to investigate marijuana growers, nothing should surprise me anymore.

What shocks me is how few people seem to care about this. Many are living in denial, assuming the government knows what's best and claiming "if they hadn't done anything wrong, they wouldn't be targeted." It is the basest instincts of a scared but egotistical population encouraged by the arrogance and ignorance of a corrupt administration. This is not America.

Of course, there is one unintended consequence of this: it increases the will to resist by those who are willing to see what is happening. I, for one, have never been more motivated to fight back.

[Iverson]

14. Thank you.

Also, see you in Guantanamo.

:toast:

[ShimokitaJer]

16. Yep, we'll be behind bars one way or another

Either the Bush administration will put us there for disloyalty to the state or the DU police will put us there for disloyalty to the party. One way or another, we're just enemy noncombatants.

[Pathwalker]

18. Just phase one of the Master Plan.

The goal is to destroy American's ability to fly overseas, so they can better isolate us from the furreners. That way, when they start the pograms, we'll have no way to leave the US. By then we're captive, with no way out.

[cprise]

20. How long before this is expanded to DU'ers?

Anyone care to guess???

[Iverson]

22. right now

Some of us on DU are Greens. Assuming that the speculation in the articles is accurate, which is how the evidence points, then the Greens among us are likely targets.

If the federal government cares to share the no-fly list, then we'll know for certain.

[GreenInNC]

25. From a Green in North Carolina

Doug Stuber is no longer a member of the North Carolina Green Party due to irrational and unstable behavior. This incident supposedly happened over a year ago. The only part of his story that we have been able to substantiate is the part where he was denied boarding because of boisterous and threatening behavior while waiting to board.

[kayell]

28. Link? From a Green party or other liberal source please.

[GreenInNC]

29. link for which part?

Would you like a link for the orginal story or the fact that we can't prove Doug's story?

[kayell]

32. For this part

"Doug Stuber is no longer a member of the North Carolina Green Party due to irrational and unstable behavior."

[Iverson]

33. problems that your post raises

"Doug Stuber is no longer a member of the North Carolina Green Party due to irrational and unstable behavior."

The relevance here escapes me. It seems to me that all political parties have people who act like asses at least some of the time. This is no way to discover whether an issue is serious or not. Further, the person(s) who marked his boarding pass to identify him could not have done so on the basis of behavior. His political affiliation at the time of the incident is relevant, and whether he is still a member of the same party now is merely epilogue.

"This incident supposedly happened over a year ago."

Therefore, what? Is the issue unimportant? Do you think it didn't happen, as implied by the use of "supposedly?"

"The only part of his story that we have been able to substantiate is the part where he was denied boarding because of boisterous and threatening behavior while waiting to board."

Who is "we?" Does this anonymous "we" have the same level of credibility as the sources that I cited? Are you disputing the central claim of the article, that he was denied boarding on the basis of political affiliation? What testimony or evidence supports such a claim?

[Toots]

26. Greens ~ Commies ~ samething.............right?????

Ann Coulter says McCarthy was right in all he did. Norquest said yesterday that he felt the same way towards "Liberals" as he did Al Qaeda and he is very close to this Administration. I hear Commie being tossed about all the time on Washington Journal referring to Liberals so it is only natural we are next. Hell half us here are Greens.

[nolabels]

27. Attacking people for political party affiliation, how original

Hey *, I don't fly anyway (don't got no wings, why should I?) You pathetic little AWOL ^&$^ if you understand this being addressed to you please disregard, because I have already disregarded you.

Convoluted to be sure, but many knew this would go on long before any us living were born. Unwritten law is something that can't be changed, hope your happy with it. No guts, no honor, no glory,

http://www.awolbush.com/

[Cleita]

30. How Hitlerish.

That ad submitted to MoveOn.org comparing Bush to Hitler seems to be closer and closer to the truth of this administration after all.

[Iverson]

31. kick, questions

It's Tuesday.

Is bipartisanship still shiny and appealing?
Who will be the first DU participant denied airplane travel? Can any of us say with confidence that the question is "whether" intstead of "when" it will happen?

[mdmc]

35. First the Arabs

Then the Greens
then folks that funded Kucinich, Braun, and Sharpton.