Why are we more acceptant now of "cruel and unusual punishment"

[sasquatch]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=9&u=ap/20040114/ap_on_re_us/coffin_photo
This woman is oredred to carry a photograph of the man she killed as a a part of her probation. If that isn't cruel and unusual punishment I don't know what it. Then to top it off the fucking mother of the victim gives her the photo of the victim when he was in his coffin!:wtf:
If this guy was as deprived and sick as his mother I'm glad the son of a bitch is dead. Hell he was a teacher? I wouldn't trust him to teach my cats how to use the litter box. Is this woman a criminal? Yes. Should she punished? Yes. Punished like that? No.

Hell I'd given her six months in jail and then all of that probation. For those of you that have been victimized by crime I really feel sorry for you.

If we're going to allow vigilany justice now I say we use Shawnee law. Read 'The Frontirsman' by Allen Eckert to see what Shawnee law is.

[Must_B_Free]

1. Merhaps a red M around the neck would be more appropriate?

M for murderer or a D for Drunk driver?

[sasquatch]

3. How about the victims family kills the offender?

Use whatever method you like to kill the offender with:evilgrin:

If the offender is later found to be innocent then kill the judge, jury and prosecution for not doing it's job properly. Put the defense attorney in a phisical state like the guy in the Metallica song "one" was for not doing better job defending him.:dunce:


What people don't know no ammount of blood of the people that were unjust to you that you drink or bathe in. You'll never be made whole.

[JasonDeter]

2. Because we have become a bloodthirsty unimaginative people

The basest of instincts rule from the top down. I mean look at the great announcement being made today! Just a rehash of an old one and one his father made in 89. The bar has been lowered and it will stay low as long as a moron* rules.

on edit forgot the * for stupid* who is as you know bush*.

[sasquatch]

5. read post #3

:)

[JasonDeter]

27. Please don't let me be missunderstood by the Animals

I agree with you and waxed way too elequent.

[sasquatch]

30. I didn't I thought you would enjoy what I posted though

I'm sorry for making you feel like that.

[MsUnderstood]

6. If only she had money. . .

. . .she could take the case to the supreme court.

[sasquatch]

8. Her lawyer should do it for her pro bono

Then the Judge whom allowed that to happen should be disbarred and all of his property forfieted to her. Give him a taste of cruel and unusual punishment.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

4. Let me save you all straw man builders your precious time.

Waaah waaah you are for drunk driving waaaah waaaah

Now, get back to work.

[sasquatch]

7. I'm not for drunk driving!

I'm against cruel and unusual punishment. Now do you understand?:shrug:

BTW are you a soccerfan? How's Renaldo doing?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

12. Uh...

...I was being sarcastic (anticipating the predictable responses).

By the way, Reinaldo is now part of the Vapid Celebrity Universe, therefore I ignore him.

[sasquatch]

15. Next time you're being Sarcastic use a emoticon

like these:silly:;):dunce:


That way I know you're being sarcastic:)

Do you think you'll repeat as World Cup champs?

[Kanary]

9. Why? Because it's now COOL to be insensitive

It's cool to want revenge.

It's cool to drive like a bully.

It's cool to yell at anyone who disagrees with you to "GET A LIFE"

It's cool to tell people what to think and how to live.

It's cool to tell a hurting person to "GROW A SKIN"


It all fits together... it's all part of the same thing.

Insensitivity and harshness is IN.

Kanary

[aquart]

10. That was it? Carry a photograph?

THAT's your "cruel and unusual punishment"???

Let me explain about cruel and unusual. There was a plot against the monarch. The plotter was tied to 4 horses. Somebody yelled, "Giddyap!" The plotter was torn to pieces between the 4 horses.

That's what is meant by "cruel and unusual punishment."

Would you also get upset if she was sent to bed without dinner?

[hlthe2b]

14. Yes, Aquart......

Forced to remember her victim via a picture and given 30 days for what likely amounts to two deaths, given the mother's current condition. She could easily have received many years in jail.

Ya know? I am anti-death penalty and pretty liberal-progressive on most issues. But, this is a little beyond the relm.... Maybe this isn't the best way for the judge to try to ensure the girl remembers her victims, but I believe it was his honest attempt to do so and to require her to take responsibility despite his leniency on the sentence. Not an unfair trade-off imo. She gets to go back to her life after 30 days. For her victims, there is never an opportunity to do so.

[sasquatch]

16. Actually she get's to go back to her life actually never

She'll be a felon so she won't be able to get certain jobs or vote so she'll be told who her rulers are. She's on probation so she'll have to report every week for five years for that. And her license is suspended for a while so she has that as well on her head. I think after that she'll remember what she did and be responsible for it.

[hlthe2b]

20. That equates to the price of lives she took?

While I do not agree with removal of voting rights for those who have served their sentence, that's a very separate matter.

Do you think she should have no consequences for taking of two lives in such a horrendous (and fully preventable way?)

I suspect she made a horrible mistake and will forever regret it, as would any of us here... be haunted by it and hopefully motivated by it. But, sadly there are some who do not take responsiblity and are not affected by their own "misdeeds, " but simply rely on society to excuse them and to make excuses for them. I believe the judge truly wanted to be lenient with her-- thus the very minimal jail sentence. Having not been in the courtroom it is difficult to know if she was truly remorseful or not. If she did not appear to be, perhaps that is why the judge felt the need to try to add a requirement for her to think on her actions and not simply make excuses for them.

[sasquatch]

24. Those are consequinces that she was given

Believe me she'll never forget this for the rest of her life. What does equate a life BTW? Do you want me to force her to give birth to two children then have the victims family kill them un front of her so they'll be "even"?

[sasquatch]

21. No that isn't it

She has to spend 30 days in jail, she's on five years probation and house arrest. I think she should get six months in jail FYI. But I think having to carry around a picture is Cruel and Unusual punishment.

[KoKo]

11. It's acceptable since the RW became a Power and started Clinton Wars.

When the Hate Mongers got together with the Corporate Media Whores and decided that Hate was "good for business" is when "Cruel and Inhuman Punishment" began.

Or, we could got back to the unenlightened periods throughout history to see when the "hate mongers" gained power and had to be pushed back into the ground.

My 2 cents.

[hlthe2b]

17. Are we arguing against capitol punishment or the story here?

She was required to remember her victims by carrying a picture, in lieu of sending her away for the most important decade of her young life. Not a really bad trade-off imo.

Hopefully, the requirement was unnecessary and this is the kind of young lady who made a tragic mistake that will affect her and also motivate her towards a productive life. But, it is also possible the judge sensed a lack of responsibility, a lack of remorse, and was searching for some way to make a lasting impression, rather than throw her life away in prison. That would certainly not be cruel and unusual punishment. Had he posted the picture in poster size within her jail cell that would hold her for the next 20 years without opportunity for early release or parole, yes, that would be cruel and unusual.

[sasquatch]

19. That is still cruel and unusual punishment

If you put her in the stock or pillory would that be any better for you? It's still sick and unusual no matter how you look at it.

[hlthe2b]

23. That remark is inappropriate to my comments.

I have agreed with the light sentence and the need for leniency for this young girl. So, you ask "if I put her in the stock or pillory would that be better for me?"

I appreciate your sensibilities, but no one here is attacking the young girl or trying to throw the book at her. Perhaps others would see your viewpoint if you explained it, instead of attacking THEM.

[sasquatch]

26. Well do you agree with me that it fits under "cruel and unusual"?

:shrug:

[hlthe2b]

28. It would depend on the circumstances, that we can not know

from the article.... the many variables that were apparent to the court during the trial, the girl's history, the indications of true remorse, rather than attempts to blame others for her actions. As I have mentioned several times already, I think most young people who make this horrible mistake would be truly impacted by it, feel deep and lasting remorse, and take full responsiblity for their actions. For them, perhaps the picture is both unneeded and to some degrees cruel.

However, for the person, who had callous disregard for others, had perhaps a pattern of narcissistic behavior and recklessness, along with a history of turning to others to excuse their actions and avoid responsiblity, well, perhaps not. That's what we are unable to know here. Perhaps the judge had indications that this young lady was of the latter minority of people.

[aquart]

13. Wait. This was a drunk driver?

Get the 4 horses ready. I have less than zero tolerance for those selfish, heartless POS since the 27 month old child who teethed on my fingers was murdered by one of them. HE got a whole 18 months.

I wouldn't give him a picture. I'd pluck out his eyes so he could NEVER drive.

Damn. Now I'm remembering how Sean's mother donated his young eyes from her hospital bed.

[sasquatch]

18. If he was sober would it have been better for you?

Who the fuck is Sean and how can you donate your eyes? Isn't that impossible?:wtf: BTW do you think you'll live forever?

[Kanary]

22. There's *your* insensitivity... see how easy it is?

Stomping on the grief of another person..... how is that so different from cruel and unusual punishment?

I posted some of the ways that it's now COOL to be insensitive.

You've demonstrated yet another way.

You're part of it, whether you see it or not.

Kanary

[sasquatch]

25. I'm not stomping on their grief I'm asking them a good question.

If you see it as stomping on them then I apologize. I do not.

[Kanary]

29. You attacked in a very hurtful way.

The person who responded to you is obviously hurting from the death of a young child due to a drunk driver. Can you not possibly understand at least *part* of that grief?

You attacked because you thought someone was disagreeing with you.

How is that attack different from what you consider "cruel and unusual punishment"?

Again, I repeat... all this is part of the same phenomenon.... insensitive responses to people. That was your original question, and that is my original response.

Listening to what people are saying, and the emotions in their responses helps to lead to understanding. Coming down with both boots because someone doesn't fully agree with you does not build consensus.

I appreciate your apology. I hope the person you attacked can see the apology.

Kanar

[sasquatch]

31. Hurt all you want just don't expect me to go along with your vengence

It's a good question though. Sober people kill people all of the time behind the wheel of a car. I bet more people are killed by sober people than drunk people can anyone see if that's true or not.

[Kanary]

32. The vengence is coming from you.

That was my point.

You are making it clear that you care not about the feelings of others.

You are making it clear that, although several have commented on your attacking behavior that you are fine with it.

There is a difference between the content of what you are saying (the issue you have brought up) and the *way* you are speaking to people.

I'm not now talking about your content, but about your method. If you wish for people to hear your views, you can speak in a respectful manner.

Given that you've told me you don't care about the feelings of me or others, I don't wish to continue the conversation. I suggest you consider this, and consider how it fits into the issue you originally brought up... of how people treat each other and cruel punishment.

Kanary

[sasquatch]

34. Well OK

I'll try to understand more next time.

[Pithlet]

37. You can donate corneas

And that post broke my heart. I think your response was a little out of line.

[sasquatch]

42. Well I apalogize for my response

[Maurkov]

33. Not even close to cruel

This woman is <ordered> to carry a photograph of the man she killed as a a part of her probation. If that isn't cruel and unusual punishment I don't know what <is>.

You don't know what is. Its not like they tattooed a picture of his mangled corpse on her forehead. She's not even required to look at the picture she carries.

I know the DU denizens are prone to bleeding hearts, but isn't this a bit over the top? She did something extravagantly selfish and stupid, and somebody died. Do I care about her feelings? Sure. But compared to killing someone, I doubt carrying a picture around is likely to leave much of an emotional scar, and it might do her some good.

[sasquatch]

35. Wait a minute this is cruel and unusual

Yeah it's not that cruel but it is unusual. I personaly think she should have spent six months in jail. But having to carry around the picture of his corpse is gross beyond belief. This crosses that line of "cruel or unusual", if you don't believe than you're in the dark.

[apsuman]

44. tis neither cruel nor unusual

not in the constitutional sense.

Look, if you believe that the only way to punish people is to put them in jail, then I think you are the one in the dark.

If I were the judge, I would put her behind bars for the maximum amount of time. Period.

I think this judge was too lenient.

If you compare five years in prison, versus carrying around a picture for five years, I think this is neither cruel nor unusual.

[sasquatch]

61. Yes it is

No matter how you look at it it's cruel and very unusual.

[Maurkov]

74. Not getting anywhere

This whole thread is unproductive because it boils down to a lot of "is not" vs. "is too."

Could you take a few minutes to explain why you think being forced to carry a picture is more cruel than the extra 4 months of prison that you've advocated?

[Pithlet]

36. I agree. That is what jail is for

Put her in prison. The trend towards these types of weird punishments is disturbing.

[BigDaddyLove]

38. Yes, put her in prison WITH the pictures.........

Make her reflect on the lives taken EVERY SINGLE DAY.

Cruel and Unusual? You Betcha'.

[Pithlet]

39. I don't feel sorry for her.

I'm not weeping over the fact that she's getting her due, I'm just think that expanding our justice system to include sentences meant to humiliate, degrade, or "teach a lesson" risks changing it from what is meant to be fair and equitable to a vengeful, arbitrary free-for-all. A limit has to be set somewhere. A lengthy prison sentence is just in her case.

[BigDaddyLove]

40. I don't disagree with your ideas.......

however, my feeling is that if you take someone's life you should be punished, and punished so that you know you are being punished.

Kinda like that flap a couple of years ago having to do with some American kids vandalizing property in Singapore. The punishment was severe caning, and lo and behold there isn't much vandalizing done in Singapore.

[sasquatch]

41. Knee

me jerk. I'm not saying you're a jerk it's just crazy that you're advacating this type of punishment. Yeah let's be like Singapore where if a 13 year old girl isn't in the factory she's working in a brothel:eyes:

[BigDaddyLove]

46. No, instead let's coddle criminals so that when they........

get out of prison they commit more crime knowing that going back to prison isn't all that bad.

:eyes: Right back at 'ya.

[sasquatch]

53. Nobody's cottling anybody

I think she should be punished. Within the constraints of the law and the US constitution.

[BigDaddyLove]

55. And I think that sometimes under our laws and.......

constitution people are not punished enough.

For example, the lady who was forced to carry pictures around during her PROBATION for killing someone. Now THAT'LL teach her!!!!

[sasquatch]

66. She didn't intend on killing anybody

If she went to his house to intentinally kill someone then I say lock her up and throw away the key. She didn't though she was just neglegent for driving while drunk. Our country has more people behind bars and spending the most time behind bars then any other country in the world.:shrug: Don't you know that. I wish you'd get the facts straight before you spat out some fascist rant about "Hang'em high". If you don't like our constitution then leave our country,

[BigDaddyLove]

68. Operative word being 'our'............

so blow me, it's my country too.

[sasquatch]

69. Not if you don't like the constitution it isn't

Go join the religous fascist in Saudi Arabia and you can watch all the public executions you want.:( I don't think you'll be happy until you've expierenced "justice" yourself:eyes:

[BigDaddyLove]

70. You seem to have a real hard time with people who........

disagree with you with regard to this issue. So far you've accused me of being a fascist and of having a desire to watch public executions.

I just think you're wrong, big frickin' deal.

[sasquatch]

71. No I don't

I have a problem with people who say are constitution is bad because it prevents us from punishing them to their likeing. That's what I have a problem with.

[BigDaddyLove]

72. O.K........

Evidently you are really intent on finding things in my posts that aren't there....which is O.K. I guess, but it makes an actual debate sort of hard; what with all of the defending positions that I don't hold that I am being forced to do.

The constitution is fine, though not perfect....which document that endorsed slavery would be?

[sasquatch]

73. Hey I don't agree with Prohibition but that's different from what you're

advocating. You're advocating harsher punishments for people that don't deserve it.

[Pithlet]

43. I think jail does that

I have no personal experience, but from what I've heard, jail is a living hell. If I had to pick between that and carrying a picture around, I'd pick the picture. I actually think she got off kind of lightly. I object to that kind of punishment not only for the reasons I stated above, but I don't feel that it is really all that effective. There are those who think about the consequences of their actions, and there are those who don't. I don't think things like making them wear signs or carry pictures changes that in a person.

[BigDaddyLove]

48. Again, I agree.....prison sucks.........

just not enough.

I think that if there were REAL consequences to doing things that are considered crimes (murder, rape), then there would be less instances of crimes being committed for fear of being punished for those crimes.

For example, if the punishment across the board for commiting rape was to have one's cock cut off, I would imagine the incidence of rape would drop dramatically.

[Pithlet]

49. I disagree

I don't think the majority of criminals, particularly violent ones, think of the consequences of their crimes. They don't think they'll get caught, if they do think about it. It just wouldn't be worth the damage it would do to our justice system. Going beyond jail just satisfies a need for vengeance; it does not serve justice.

[BigDaddyLove]

50. Me too.........

but that's why they make more than just Chocolate ice cream.

:)

[Pithlet]

51. Now, don't get me started.

I've sworn off of ice cream. I have to get rid of this preggo weight.

[BigDaddyLove]

52. Oh, that sucks.............

I have lately been making my own ice-cream, and if I say so myself, it rivals Ben and Jerrys.

:P

[NavajoRug]

45. Why are we losing elections all the time now?

Because there are a lot of us who actually think it is "cruel and unusual" to force a convicted killer to carry a photo of her victim around as part of her sentence.

Un.

Freaking.

Believable.

[sasquatch]

54. That doesn't seem "unusual" to you

I can't believe people like you approve of fascism and unconstitutionalism. The reason why we lose is that we approve of allowing the lowest of human behavior to exist. What's next for you approving of public execution and old style stocks/pillory.

UN

FREAKING

BELIEVABLE:eyes:

Right back at you

[NavajoRug]

65. That's not what you said . . .

Your comment specifically referred to "cruel and unusual punishment," not just "unusual" punishment.

I agree that the punishment is unusual. I also agree that it was inappropriate.

She should have been locked up for 25 years.

If she had gotten that, I'll bet she would have been begging for the "cruel and unusual punishment" of carrying a photo in her wallet.

[sendero]

47. All in all....

... she's getting a pretty good deal IMHO.

[Name removed]

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[sasquatch]

59. I don't agree with that

I think she should do six months in jail, then all of the probation and house arrest.

[arewethereyet]

56. well, it IS unusual but hardly cruel

its not like she has to pin it to her blouse

[sasquatch]

60. But it's one step closer to that

Soon you'll have all of the right wing freaks demanding that we have public execution, scarlet letters and execution of minority groups. It is unconstitutional no matter how you slice it.

[arewethereyet]

62. I guess the courts will decide the constitutionality of it

could have been worse, could have gotten an extended prison term. She can shove a picture down in the bottom of her pocketbook and largely forget it.

I'd be more upset about the high school kid kid in Rome GA who is looking at 10 years of hard time because he screwed a classmate 3 months shy of 16. Prosecuter tacked on an aggrivated assault to get it done as the other charges were thrown out by the jury as the act was consentual.

Now thats wrong. Email is at work, sorry. Really sad as the boy in question is a straight A kid, all-state football player who opted for Vanderbilt for the academics, jumkie mother, no father real feel-good story right up until he did what kids so often do....

[Pithlet]

63. I read about that case.

It's outragious.

[sasquatch]

64. I heard that

How stupid are jury's to throw out the other charges and then agree to assualt. Then again it is the south and it was a black boy with a white girl. I feel sorry for southern blacks, they've got it the worse.

[arewethereyet]

67. technically it did qualify following the letter of how the law is written

they tried but could not get around it given the wording.