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How was the "shock and awe" air campaign on Baghdad any better than 9/11?

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the populist Donating Member (283 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 08:16 PM
Original message
How was the "shock and awe" air campaign on Baghdad any better than 9/11?
Am I wrong, or did our military bomb the heck out of a densely populated urban area to "shock and awe" the Iraqis into submission? Why is there no outcry against this when discussing the war? The bombing of Baghdad was a war crime, and for that alone George Bush deserves a one-way bus ticket back to Cra... er... the Hague.
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. more of that moral relativism that the right always accuses the left of...
I'm sure some would say it made better tv, though :eyes:

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the populist Donating Member (283 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Excuse me?
Oh, I'm sorry. I guess that because I don't see the US as the absolute good guys with good on our sides then I deserve to be insulted for it.

Call it what you want, but evil is evil NO MATTER WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR IT.
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. what?
Edited on Thu Jan-15-04 04:59 PM by arcane1
I'm not sure what you mean, my post wasn't referring to you personally at all

:shrug:

to clarify-

the right approves of the concept of collateral damage, as long as said collateral is not American. Thus, they engage in moral relativism when they say killing masses of Iraqi civilians is ok.

Thus, they are hypocrites, for they are always using the M.R. label against the left..
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. It was even more obvious that Bush was behind it.
Saves us the trouble of having a serious investigation into the cause.

9-11 however is much tougher as we have yet to have get to the truth.

It is becoming clear though that 9-11 happened so that shock and awe could happen.◊
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. Ouch .
Damn.

I wish I had said that.
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ramapo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. Do what we say not what we do
The US is always right. The end.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
5. The time between event and Halliburton profit was shorter for Baghdad
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
6. well, it was aimed at military targets, not civilian ones
but they do share the concept of making a huge and lasting impression.
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. They aimed at military targets on 9-11 too.
The pentagon was an obvious military target, and the WTC was just as legitimate a military target as the television stations and historic palaces that the US targeted in Iraq.

Those civilian casualties were just collateral damage.
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. what historic palaces ?
I could be wrong but it was my understanding that Hussein built all the palaces, not much history in that.

I also believe that the TV stations were post shock and awe.

WTC was a economic target intended to cripple the economy. It did but not to the extent that they had hoped for. The prior bombing had made many of the computers get moved elsewhere.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. The CIA office in the WTC was empty that day, due to a lucky coincidence
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BrendaM Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
7. Was it better becaused we killed more people with it than 9/11?
What do I win? If my prize is CIC I'll hand it over to any of the nine Democrats in the running.
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ignatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
11. History will record that day as one of the lowest points in the
history of our country.

I can remember men in our office dancing around, yelling like it was some goddamned video game, not real people being maimed and killed.

And how many more have died, how many soldiers have been killed for this illegitimate war?

I read an article this evening, and I am paraphrasing here,that said one of the most sacred duties of an American citizen is to ensure that no soldiers are killed in a false war and that those in power should be held accountable.

We need to organize a march on Washington, like the million man march a few years ago and demand that Cheney's energy records are released, demand that Chimpy tells Novak to spill the name of the US traitor in the WH and demand to know why we are killing all these people.
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not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
12. They still ran ads during it on TV...
so the advertising profits were higher.

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DieboldMustDie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
13. We used our own airplanes...
because we respect property rights.
</sarcasm>
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
14. well, according to Joe FReeper, "Bombs are cool"
And so is destroying civilian targets and knocking out a city's infrastructure.

Well, its cool as long as you do it in the name of Jesus.

Plus, thanks to "shock and awe", Haliburton gets to rebuild!
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crazycat911 Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
16. It wasn't. As a military pilot with 250+ missions in Vietnam ...
... I found "shock and awe" disgusting. In fact, I wrote about a firestorm I witnessed in Laos:

The NVA troops on the Ho Chi Minh trail could not see or hear the B-52s seven miles up in the night sky. I glanced up through my Mohawk’s overhead canopy, knowing I would not see the bombers either – thirty-something thousand feet above me - in the ink-black stratosphere. High in the spangled Asian winter sky, however, hung the constellations Orion and Canis Major. The reddish star representing the hunter’s right shoulder, Nick, winked against a sky as black as a Rothko canvas. Orion’s belt pointed downward and to the left, as always, towards Sirius, the alpha-star of Canis Major. Sirius, the Dog Star, competed well with the bright planets Jupiter and Mars, as they ascended in the ecliptic plane. In the distant east, over the horizon of the South China Sea, were faint streaks that hinted at the imminent rising of a waning gibbous moon. The still-fat moon could be a tactical advantage or disadvantage, depending on who you were and where you were. I always called it a “shooter’s moon.”
Just short of the seventeenth parallel, I made a turn southbound for another infrared imaging run down the trail. The jungle darkness just northwest of Tchepone suddenly exploded with a carpet of bombs from the unseen B-52s. From my vantage point at two thousand feet above the Namkok Valley floor, the eruption of the earth - with streets of fire and visible shock waves - was awesome. I thought of Kurtz: “The horror, the horror.” I looked over at my observer, a doughy former Greyhound bus driver from Paris, Texas, named Charlie Walker. Charlie was on his third combat mission over the trail in Laos. Tonight he was witnessing his first arc-light saturation bombing. He was ashen.
This is Moonbeam on guard. SAMs! SAMs! SAMs! Vicinity of Ban Karai Pass! SAMs! SAMs! SAMs! Moonbeam out.
Charlie flinched, obviously waiting for me to do - or at least say - something. “Don’t worry, Charlie,” I said, trying to calm his brittle nerves. “We are thirty miles south of the Ban Karai. They are shooting at the B-52s anyway. But things might get interesting when we get over Tchepone. Just remember what General Westmoreland once said about Tchepone, ‘I’d love to go to Tchepone, but I don’t have tickets.’ What an asshole.”
“Ha! That’s good,” chuckled Charlie. “Westy on the Greyhound to Tchepone.”
Tchepone, Laos, was a desolate, war-torn, frontier village at the deathly nexus of the Ho Chi Minh trail and the serpentine QL-9; “highway” 9. The QL-9, which wound westward from out of the mountains just south of the DMZ in Vietnam’s Quang Tri province into eastern Laos, was just another “street without joy,” as Bernard Fall had tagged the QL-1 near Hue. Tchepone, reputedly, crawled with Pathet Lao, Viet Cong, and NVA troops, along with seedy Russian advisors and CIA-types trying to keep the war going.
I watched the seemingly endless bombing and listened over my headset to the soft poetry of Simon and Garfunkel’s Sounds of Silence through the static on the Armed Forces Vietnam radio station in Quang Tri. Charlie operated the infrared camera gear.
Three volleys of tracer rounds caught my eye just to the west and close to Tchepone. I knew there were 14.5-mm, 37-mm, and 57-mm anti-aircraft guns in that area. “Better pucker up, Charlie,” I said. “The shit’s out of the barrel.”
Tracer rounds drifted up towards us, flashing from the big guns below. Initially, the few red-orange balls floating up – five at a time, desultorily - seemed harmless; even eerily beautiful. “When my eyes were stabbed by the flash of a neon light that split the night, and touched the sound of silence,” played the sentient masterpiece of Paul and Art. Then, as suddenly as a desert cloudburst, the anti-aircraft fire poured up in sheets. The NVA gunners were shooting payback from three guns; payback for the B-52 strikes. Payback, as the saying goes, is a motherfucker.
Twenty-four terrified and pissed-off young North Vietnamese soldiers, some probably chained to the guns, were shooting at us with inch-and-a-half explosive tracer shells, fed in five-round charger clips, with a rate-of-fire of 180 rounds-per-minute. The 37 mike-mike anti-aircraft crews tracked our Grumman Mohawk, bracketing us with thunder and lightning. “But my words like silent raindrops fell, and echoed in the wells of silence,” the folk singers’ haunting lyrics addressed my darkest fears.


© 2004 CrazyCat911
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
17. I remember how I felt watching it,
and I hadn't felt that way since Sept 11.

And that it was willed to happen by the White House, for no goddamn good reason, I'll never forget.

I remember how fucking CNN was so fucking happy it was beginning. At last, the big show.

Thank God for CBC, and the wisdom and compassion of commentators like Eric Margolis and Gwynne Dyer. Dyer, I remember, explicitly compared it to 9/11.

I'm shaking with anger now, just recalling that day. I'll never forgive Bush for staging that disgraceful spectacle.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. For me, the worst moment of either was the day they started
Edited on Wed Jan-14-04 11:41 PM by DuctapeFatwa
Bombing Baghdad, all the deals had been made, all the fatcats, anyone who could, had left, and CNN had some reporter there, and the azan (call to prayer) started and the reporter had to talk louder.

The guy at the desk in Atlanta said something about prayer time, and the reporter explained that it wasn't prayer time.

The Iraqis were asking God to help them.
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DicklessCheney Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
19. "Shock and Awe" is a euphemism for terrorism. [n/t]
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the populist Donating Member (283 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
20. My Recollections
I flipped on the TV at 5 30 in the morning (I was in high school, and that's when I woke up then) and flipped on the tube to see what happened since Bush gave his "ultimatum" to Saddam, and what do I see? I see this woman who's fucking smiling on CNN acting as though it was D-Day and America was going to save the world. I went to school, and my first period teacher made jokes about it and how he hoped Iraqis get bombed the hell out of for doing 9/11 and all that bullshit. I was completely shocked.

Then there was the stifling of debate on TV (we STILL don't get a full-hour of Crossfire), and the terrible reporting and the Jessica Lunch story. Argh!

Think about all that human misery in Baghdad - all for oil profits and to sell the US out to the Likud.

If I seem ready to abstain from voting on election day just remind me of the war.
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-15-04 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
21. Shock and Awe was WHOLESOME FAMILY ENTERTAINMENT.
GO America, Support the TROOPS! Hip hip HOORAY!
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Kickin_Donkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 04:05 AM
Response to Original message
23. The "shock and awe" campaign WASN'T any better than 9/11.
On December 12, 2000, we ceased to be a democracy – or at least the facade of democracy was forever ripped away, in my eyes.

When the bombs started falling on Baghdad last March, America became a fascist country – no different than when Hitler's tanks started rolling into Poland in 1939. I couldn't believe my eyes: As if it were the Super Bowl or a reality TV contest, Americans were cheering at television screens showing the smoke and devastation amidst which people were dying. Americans were animals that day. It made me sick.
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. As someone who saw it from outside the US
> I couldn't believe my eyes: As if it were the Super Bowl or a
> reality TV contest, Americans were cheering at television screens
> showing the smoke and devastation amidst which people were dying.
> Americans were animals that day.

There was very little difference between the cheering Americans
watching "shock & awe" and the cheering Palestinians watching "9/11".
Both were appalling examples of one group of humans enjoying the
suffering of other (less fortunate) humans.

There were children who could see that this was wrong. They didn't
have the words or philosophical arguments to explain why it was so
wrong, so immoral, so inhuman but they knew deep inside that it
simply *was* wrong. The children might laugh at a cartoon or a film
that shows someone being blown up and landing with a dazed expression
on their face but they soon know when something is real, when people
are bleeding, when people don't get up from the ground again.

They can understand that if a bomb can demolish a brick or concrete
house, it's going to make a godawful mess of any unprotected humans
in the area. They can see children on the television (who don't look
that different from some of their friends at school) and pause to
think how they might feel if the positions were reversed.

Why can't the adults? Why can't the leaders of our countries?
Why can't those evil and perverted creatures that whip up support for
the cruel, murderous attacks see how inhuman such behaviour really is?

Nihil
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 04:44 AM
Response to Original message
24. The death and destruction that the cabal reigned
down on Baghdad that day in the name of profit, corporate greed, and world domination was pure evil on par with 9/11. It is shameful to think that at the dawn of the 21st century the United States of America is capable of such barbarism.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 06:48 AM
Response to Original message
26. Download this Pilger documentary, please.
I mean, it'll both piss you off and sadden you, but it puts things in a perspective that our corporate media won't.

http://100777.com/node/view/567

snip>
Breaking the Silence:
Truth and lies in the war on terror.

Following a packed preview at the National Film Theatre in London, John Pilger's latest documentary, 'Breaking the Silence: Truth and lies in the war on terror.' was broadcast on the ITV Network on 22nd September. Pilger and his team filmed in Afghanistan and the United States and acquired previously unseen material from Iraq.

The film investigates George W Bush's "war on terror". In "liberated" Afghanistan, America has its military base and pipeline access, while the people have the warlords who are, says one women, "in many ways worse than the Taliban".

In Washington, a series of remarkable interviews includes senior Bush officials and former intelligence officers. In the week that the Hutton inquiry into the death of the British scientist Dr David Kelly releases its report, a former senior CIA official tells Pilger that the whole issue of weapons of mass destruction was "95 per cent charade".
<snip
http://100777.com/node/view/567
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StopThief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
27. In legal jargon.. . .
Mens Rea.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
28. If you buy into the bu$h adm. pre-emptive war theory
then 9/11 was a pre-emption by our enemy. Score one for them.
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chelaque liberal Donating Member (981 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-16-04 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
29. I have never been so ashamed of being American
I am a nurse and I had a patient who wanted to be discharge early enough to watch Shock and Awe on television that afternoon. I was so appalled I went home and sent something like this to everyone in my address book:

We have Super bowl parties, how about a Shock and Awe Party? I will get a large screen TV so that we can get a better view of the carnage. We can cheer with each explosion. For refreshments there will be "Bloody Muslims"
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