Social justice, poverty - Europe and the USA: a poll

[Dirk39]

I find this to be of interest. It was published in a German daily newspaper (Süddeutsche Zeitung)today:


71% of U.S. citizens believe that poverty can be overcome through individual action against 40% of the Europeans.

70% of the German citizens think that society is responsible for individual poverty, while 70% of the U.S. citizens believe that it's the personal fault of poor people to be poor.

One thing has surprised me: till the early seventies, the inequality in countries like Great Britain and even Sweden was bigger than in the USA.
These days, 5% of the U.S. citizen own more money than the remaining 95%.

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/sz/feuilleton/red-artikel252/

Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Vielen Dank!

I have German relatives (from Augsburg), and they are always amazed at the attitudes of Americans towards not only the poor but working people as well.

[camero]

2. We haven't grown up yet

They don't call the European Countries "mature" democracies for nothing. I just hope we don't have to lose 50 million or so citizens in war in order to grow up.

[Cleita]

3. It shows that your social programs and government for the people

works better than our social Darwinism.

[cryofan]

4. I really think that we can convery Americans if we appeal to their sense..

....economic sense of justice as opposed to social sense of justice. Americans will support social democracies if we can show them that the quality of European lives is better than quality of most American lives. We need to finance movies and TV shows/documentaries that document and show exactly why and how the quality of European lives is better than quality of most American lives. We need to develop a thesis built around the theory that American citizens are entitled to European style social benefits by virtue of being an American citizen. We liberals who want this style of govt need to somehow get this done.

And here is how we do it: it starts right here at DU. We can learn all we can about why and how the European style social democracies are better than American style corporatism when it comes to delivering high quality of life to more people. See my sig url for links. THen we spread the meme here at DU. We need to get politicians running for election to mention this meme. THen we get them to commit to funding these documentaries once they get elected. Then we make the documentaries and make sure people see them. It will take years, but it is doable.

[Solon]

5. American Nationalism gets in the way...

A problem I would think most of us would face, when comparing the US to Europe is that most Americans will not listen. We have no sense of Economic Justice. Hell most Americans still believe in the myth that individual effort settled the west (Homestead Act). Most Americans believe they are superior to everyone else, and to hell with the poor. Sad but true.

[Dirk39]

12. I try to be positive somehow...

Being a german, who has spent maybe about a year in the USA during the last 15 years - So, if I'm wrong about this, I'm wrong!

The spirit of democrazy, the spirit of democratic rights is still much more alive in the USA than in any other country. I'm not talking about polls or the americans, who are addicted to Fox-TV. It's just a common attitude.


Maybe if the american liberals could make it clear to the american public that social justice isn't about an allmighty state or government, regulating and controlling everything and everyone. That health care and education are as important or even more important - as a kind of prerequisite for using your freedom - they might have a chance.
Was the "New Deal" ever considered unamerican?

Like turning social justice into a very american thing.
And hell: what are all the people about, who don't vote at all in the USA?
I'm just recognizing the same thing in Germany: the fewer social justice is there, the less people are voting.
We're pretty close to the USA.
About 80 or 90% of the citizens voting, was pretty common in Germany.
Now we have elections with about 50% of the people voting. Doesn't surprise me somehow:-)
Dirk

[Dirk39]

6. But you have to consider that Europe suffers from the

strongest neoliberal attack against our welfare systems since the end of WWII. Sweden is about the only country that is still different.
I really admire the swedish people. Even after Anna Lindh was murdered last year, most of the swedish people still want their democrazy to be as liberal as it is. The germans would rather react like the US citizens after September 11. I hope I don't have to stress particularly that one cannot compare Sept. 11 to the murder of Anna Lindh.


Some people even expect the possibility of a kind of revolution in european countries against the neoliberal attack.
There were and are big strikes and demonstrations in France, Italy and Germany (only demonstrations, so strikes in Germany so far).
The german social democrats have lost about 100.000 members since Schröder is in office (1998), about 43.000 in 2003 (that's about 6,2% of their members).
The german students are in a kind of permanet strike for month. Last year, unsupported by any big party or union, about 100.000 people demonstrated against Schröder in Berlin.

The whole article, I quoted, is quite pessimistic about the next election in the USA. It's written by a sociologist and it's mostly about the absurdity, considering the economic situation of many american citizens, that a democrat, who has a kind of social democratic agenda has no chance in the USA.

Dirk

[cryofan]

8. DUers with the google toolbar using MS Internet explorer can translate

that page using right click menu

[Devlzown]

7. Many Americans think poor people are immoral.

Others think they're just lazy, some think they're immoral and lazy. In America, there's this idea that you can have anything you want if you're willing to work hard enough for it, and the only way to reconcile poor people with such an idea is to pronounce them as somehow defective. Until some basic attitudes change about why people are poor, I'm afraid the problem in this country is only going to get worse.

[bobbieinok]

9. Few Americans know much about German 'benefits'

and are stunned by the following -

...beginnings of national health insurance in Germany at the end of the 19th century

...paid vacations of 4-6 weeks for many Germans (Germans and Swiss are often surprised that US doesn't have this)

...monthly payment from the govt to parent(s)for each child

...very low tuition at German universities (most US colleges and universities now charge AT LEAST $10,000 tuition per year)

[bobbieinok]

10. the author Wolf Lepenies

is a noted historian of sociology

[Dirk39]

11. Thanx for the correction, bobieinok.

Directeur d'études associé on the paris Maison des Sciences de l'Homme (1977ff.) member of the School of Social Science Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, N.J. (1979-80 bzw. 1982-84).
When I did read the article, I just remembered him as the editor on incredible good books and studies that otherwise might have never found their way to germany. He is one of the guys, who did a lot, to not let the kind of social science and critical thinking die, that was so alive in Germany before the Nazis. Thank you Mr. Lepenies for not forcing me to read too many books in english or - even worse - in french.
Dirk

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

13. At least you have Kraftwerk

And many sausages.