How do we stop corporate america?

[Deja Q]

While American born, they choose to not give fellow Americans a good quality of life, but in turn give good paying jobs to foreign countries that lack workers' and environmental rights, just to pad thir own wallets. Sorry, that is 100% WRONG.

And while outsourcing the good jobs; the jobs in the same field here in the US have been devalued in the process. Now to make even a puny $40k/year in IT, you need a bachelor's degree, numerous certifications, the ability to program in lots of languages. That's bull too. With the responsibility of data, that's a crucial job that deserves real money. (oh yeah, ask the IT folk how secure their installations are, and they'll tell you on "60 Minutes" that their workers aren't allowed to have paper and pencil at their desks. :eyes: No, you cuckoo trying to make pidgeons out of all of us, I mean network security. Given that many IT and banking and credit report companies all keep their data overseas, where it's been documents that theft is much easier to get away with, it's all one big effing lie.)

Most of the new jobs in america are also retail; near minimum wage, in an era that needs more than TWICE the minimum wage to make even living in a non-homeless state possible.

Let alone the health insurance scam...

And why won't they hand out books of "Final Exit" to people? Well, that's inhumane! :eyes:

Corporate america is playing dirty. Very dirty and it stinks. They'll move the work offshore. They move their HQs offshore in order to avoid taxes. Yet the filthy vermin want all the protections and 'freedoms' America gives them in return.

You're damn right I'm disgusted. Every one of us should be.

Well, let's get a think tank going. How do we incite change?

If we fail or do nothing, we'll be loathed by future generations.

So let's do something. Together. To stop the evil.

[corporatewhore]

1. stop giving them money stop voting for their politicians

BUY LOCAL shops farmers market socially and evironmentally concientious companies etc

[brainwashed_youth]

3. how do we stop corporate america

we elect Wesley Clark as president.

[cthrumatrix]

8. simple - EVERYTHING must be "transparent".....everything.

[arewethereyet]

2. the ring in the nose of corperate America is your wallet

they want the contents, you control who gets them.

decide wisely.

[maggrwaggr]

29. not us, it's the 98% of Americans who aren't informed

and most Americans just don't give a shit about where their products come from or who makes them, or anything else.

The ring in the nose is the wallets of the masses who shop at WalMart and will always shop at Walmart even if you showed them feeding children into incinerators to power their plants in China. :eyes:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. Start by being a smart shopper

Don't be a mindless consumer. Check out your local sources for food, clothing, and fuel. Around here there are plenty of local farmers and folks who sell plants for gardens. Buy your clothes second hand. You're not supporting the corporations, and you're very likely to find jeans that were actually made in the USA! If you live in cold climates, consider the possibility of a wood burning stove, because there is usually someone around willing to sell you firewood if you can't cut it yourself (and there are usually plenty of downed trees which can be used). When you have to buy new stuff, go to local stores or chains. Don't gripe about the cost, unless it is double or triple other places. Remember who and what you are supporting.

These are just my thoughts.

[duhneece]

22. I love solution-oriented thoughts like yours

nt

[maggrwaggr]

26. keep dreamin'

that ain't gonna do it. It's fine as a balm to soothe your conscience and admittedly if you do what you say you are then not part of the problem, but you're not gonna get America to quit shopping at WalMart. It just ain't gonna happen.

The only way to deal with corporations is to regulate them and enforce the regulations.

Even a boxing match has a referee.

[INTELBYTES]

59. regulations and taxes are why they are leaving and going overseas.

[maggrwaggr]

64. no, it's because they're NOT regulated re: going overseas

Try using some logic here. The reason they're going overseas is because our government LETS them. We need to pass regulations to DISCOURAGE them from going overseas.

As in: not letting them sell their goods here if they take their factories overseas unless they abide by U.S. regulations in the country where they're building the plants.

Man, how difficult is that to understand?

[SemperEadem]

67. I think an insane tariff for american good manufactured overseas

and shipped back into the country should be imposed. Some kind of penalty should be born by businesses who chose to gut the American workforce and circumventing honorable business practices.

[maggrwaggr]

70. I agree 100% n/t

[blurp]

75. I have a great idea!

Try using some logic here. The reason they're going overseas is because our government LETS them. We need to pass regulations to DISCOURAGE them from going overseas.

Hey, how about some kind of barrier! I heard there was a place where people weren't allowed to run from their social responsibilities.

Maybe we can borrow that wall they stopped using out east.

[SemperEadem]

66. well, seeing that in this current administration your fantasy is

most likely not to happen, we then must consider options that are realistic and doable by the average citizen.

Yeah, it'd be nice if corporations were regulated, but that ain't gonna happen, s0n. They own the lobbies in DC who in turn own the politicians who went to DC to look after the concerns of their constituents.

Nice fantasy, but totally unrealistic.

[maggrwaggr]

71. Gee, you got any "realistic" solutions?

that seems like the most realistic solution there is -- take back our government, make it do its freaking JOB, and re-regulate industry.

What the hell else is gonna work? Tell everybody to stop buying Nikes and shopping at WalMart?

HA! Double HA!

[FloridaPat]

5. We hit them in their pocket books. That's the only way

they pay attention. Boycott as much as possible and send letters telling them why. Vote is definately a good one. Better is to run for office. Might be time to start bartering again. I think there are some web sites. Of course, the IRS doesn't like bartering unless you add it to your income. But for some reason they won't take payments in trade! This country was founded on small business. Everyone had a tiny piece of the pie. And everyone was local. Bankers, food growers, clothing stores. It's time to get out and meet the little people that can do a lot of this stuff. And everyone learn a new trade - pottery, gardening and farming, canning fruits and veggies or at least freezing them.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

6. You can't "fight them with your wallet" or boycott away Corporate America

They either now or soon will control the water, the electricity, the gasoline, the land, and the farms. You can't boycott food and water and heat and transportation.

Pretty soon most Americans won't be able to afford any luxury items or non-essentials to "boycott" anyway. We'll be servicing the rich and making or being luxury items for them. Think about how "productive" that economy will be - higher GDP!

[cryofan]

7. Here is what we can do this primary season

Whatever candidate is talking the most anti-corporate, the most progressive taxation, that is the one we vote for when it comes our time. Or more importantly, that is the one we support with money, time, or in the polls.

We have to make them get in a bidding war for our vote. THe trick is not to get attached to any one candidate, but instead to get them to get progressive, liberal ideas into the public debate, and once in office, to change govt policy. Make them get into a bidding war for our support.

[Nashyra]

9. I like the post that said vote Clark

but we can all start by not buying at Walmart. This Christmas I did not purchase one thing at Walmart and their have been somethings that I could have used, mainly "household products, or electronics" that would be less expensive to buy at Walmart that I have decided against purchasing rather than buy at Walmart. I did pay a bit more for a digital camera but it was worth the extra $12.00

[cryofan]

11. Don't get locked into any one candidate! Make them get into a bidding war

If Kerry talks about making the rich pay for healthcare, go to him. If Clark talks about specifics of how he will make the rich pay, go to him. If dean says he will raise the income tax on incomes over 200K to 60%, then go to him......make them earn it!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

13. heh

:evilgrin: no war but class war, baby!

[SemperEadem]

68. I am proud to say I've never set foot in a Walmart and I never will

my tender sensibilities will not suffer me to do so.

[maggrwaggr]

72. I checked one out in Mississippi and was shocked to discover

everything in the place was made in China. And I'm talking everything.

This was a couple of years ago before I had my political awakening (as it were). :)

[are_we_united_yet]

10. Shareholder greed.

This is a big problem.

[blurp]

47. Actually, it's board member greed

Take a look at this page, about 3/4th the way down:

http://www.bea.gov/bea/newsrel/gdpnewsrelease.htm

Of all the income received in the US, shareholder dividends amounted to about 4.7%. That really doesn't seem like a lot to me, overall. And this number has been dropping for awhile now. Compare this with the great INCREASE in CEO pay. Wages payed to employees amount to 67% of the income in the US -- those wages include paying CEOs.

I can only guess, but I would suspect that a lot of money is going to pay board members and CEOs. Many CEOs sit on the boards of each others companies and essentially give each other raises. Back and forth it goes until the company starts having to fire people to pay for it.

It's really a breakdown in corporate democracy. Shareholders should have enough control to put the breaks on such abuses since board members are elected by them. Now that we live in an age of day-trading, the people that actually own the company may only own it for 30 seconds. They have no interest in fixing things, so the abuse goes on.

And what about mutual funds? There's a second layer between you and the company you might own. Owners have even less control.

What's happening is that professional CEO's have been raping public companies and running them into the ground. They don't care because they don't own the company. They want whatever money they can get NOW. Screw the future. They have no financial interest in the future.

[maggrwaggr]

54. it's their JOB to be greedy

we can't hold THAT against them.

But in a civilized society, we have the rule of law. Laws are designed to make things fair. So that if I see you have something I want, I can't just take it. That's called stealing. If I do it, I risk getting in big trouble.

The same thing has to exist for corporations. These are called regulations. Republicans have convinced a whole lot of people that regulations are bad.

That's like saying the laws against someone breaking into my house are bad.

(sigh) another reason to just fucking HATE the right wing.

Capitalism is like any other game. It has to have rules, referees, judges, and punishment for breaking the rules.

Even a boxing match has a referee.

[Nobody]

57. Color my cynical

I've just heard the "We can't afford to stay in business" speech yet again at yet another company. The speech was delivered by an exec making over 100K to a bunch of peons making squat.

You hit the nail on the head when you talked about board members giving each other raises and day traders with no interest in the company. Then they pay themselves huge bonuses first and when the accounts receivable can't afford it, they lay people off. It happened in other companies I've worked for.

These are the people killing businesses.

When a company consists only of shareholders and execs, there isn't a company. What product does it produce, what service does it provide? Nothing. Just like Enron and many multilevel marketing orgs. It's a pyramid scam and the people at the bottom who rely on earned income get screwed.

The only solution is a legislative one. Make reforms so that investing really is investing, so that CEOs can't get paid millions of dollars for running companies into the ground.

People making a living wage is not going to kill a company, it's the million dollar bonuses being handed out to execs who don't do anything spectacular enough to earn that bonus. I've even seen these gargantuan bonuses being handed out after layoffs to commend the exec for cutting costs.

[SemperEadem]

69. to me, that's gross mismanagement

[maggrwaggr]

73. stock price often rises after announcement of layoffs

because the "shareholders" i.e. "gamblers" are feeling positive about the cost-cutting.

[camero]

12. Divest all stocks

Take your money out of the banks. Stock up on canned goods.

Nationwide strikes and hitting them in the wallet will be the only way to beat them.

Plus what cryofan suggested. Don't get stuck on one candidate.

[...Alltogethernow]

14. Double edged sword

... Some of us feed our families with income from American corporations

... Don't bash it too hard please

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

15. we love the productive business part of corporations

It's the "owners" and "managers" that are the problem. People should own the businesses they work for. Handfuls of shares won't cut it.

[maggrwaggr]

28. it's that kind of fear that lets them get away with murder

So cut it out.

You think Nike's gonna go broke if we tell it that it can't sell shoes in America unless it makes its factories comply with U.S. environmental and labor regulations?

Nooooooo.

Be realistic here. The corporations are doing whatever they can get away with because THE GOVERNMENT LETS THEM.

That's all there is to it.

[sweetheart]

16. machine breakers

Back in 1800's britain, cotton milling machines were invented that completely revolutionized what was before then a cottage industry. Every home had a home mill, and then the big mills bankrupted them all by the sheer productivity increases which were many times over the home-manual methods.

A bunch of angry people decided to do something about it by "breaking" the milling machines of industry. The sentiment that they had towards doing this is not so different than what you express in your post.

The way to control the corporates is to regulate them. This is done by government on behalf of the people.. (as it is not done today). If you want to change it, the only path is political. Shareholder meetings, boycotts and such simply don't work at the scale you need to impact the issue.

If you yourself were running a company with a software product with say 100 staff, 20 software engineers, support, sales and the lot, you would be put out of business paying american salaries in the maturing industry, whilst your competitors move their labour contracts overseas at 1/10th the cost.

You would be forced to do the same or go bankrupt.. and there is no nobility in bankruptcy, so i think your indictment of individual corporate decisions is childish, as you would do the same or have no company.

The way is to levy a tarriff on the labour resources overseas equal to the social contract discount. If your national labour market has public education, public medical services and public transit, and the outsource economy has none of those things, these should be added to the labour charge when it goes overseas. Otherwise, the result will ultimately be to destroy all social services by discounting all labour to industrial slavery. (a gross violation of human rights).

I share your feelings over the injustices done, just the solution is to enforce public justice through good governance, not by breaking the machine, as the economic evolution cannot be "stopped".

[spindoctor]

17. There is no corporate conspiracy, corporations are not working against us.

Let's just for the sake of this argument assume that the free market principles work exactly as intended (or it will get very, very complicated and long drawn).

Under that perimeter, companies are always driven by profit for their shareholders. Profit is generated by sales. To change this principle will be next to impossible.

So like some already mentioned above, changes will have to take place on the consumer side. What drives consumers are things like price, quality, service, etc. Price will obviously be the most important for people on a budget, service will be the most important for the other end of the consumer spectrum.
Then there are the middle classes, in general the people who will do whatever society dictates them to do.
By educating the consumers, you can promote "political correct" companies like Ben & Jerry's, but the catch is that if you were successful in doing so, every single company trying to compete in the market segment would adopt an image of political correctness.

It is not the corporations that you need to be afraid off, it is their influence on the political agenda and decission making.
Our system of special interest groups is nothing more than legalized corruption. Until we change that system (and consequently reform campaigning laws drasticly), we are stuck with a dominating influence of corporations and industries on the way we do things in America.

So who you gonna vote for?

[kentuck]

18. Wait until they all move off shore then take away their tax break...

and don't let them or their products back into the country...

[Must_B_Free]

19. I like that one, baby

Live by the sword,....

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[0007]

21. How does the Banana Republic deal with it!

[Beam Me Up]

23. If "Peak Oil" is a reality

it will be the end of not only American corporatism but Global corporatism. It will also be the end of American global hegemony.

[Serenity-NOW]

31. whaddya mean if? is oil going to become infinite?

Point is it will run out, we should endeavor to figure out when to the best of our abilities and then put all energy into replacing it.

Solar, wind, check the danes and their tidal generators, very cool, home farming, build with local renewable materials etc.

[blurp]

49. Looks like 2000 was that peak

The years 2001 and 2002 both showed a decline. It might have been the recession, but the peak is coming very soon or has already passed.

[maggrwaggr]

24. there's only one way

and that is this: we take back our government and regulate them.

Nothing else will work.

If they want to violate environmental regulations by having their plants in China, fine. They can't sell their goods in the U.S.

They'll shape up in no time.

The ONLY way to deal with corporations is through regulations and strict enforcement.

To them it's just a game and they'll get away with whatever they can. That's their job.

[Terwilliger]

25. you stop supporting the corporate parties

who facilitate the corporate takeover

[maggrwaggr]

27. exactly!

There is no other way except enforcement of regulations.

You play cop.

[dutchdemocrat]

30. How I beat the corps

Scenario.

Large Dot Com company funded just before collapse. Their job is to build a website for expatriates in Europe. And they do pretty good - in the beginning.

Site gets busy, based on the forums that push the hit count way up. Hit count brings in "invest money offshore animated gif adverts" and popups for Saab.

Corps decide out of the blue to switch to more economical Content Management System (CMS) which wipes out a quarter of a million posts in the archive and brings the forums back to the 90's with no perks... a crap board basically. And who cares about archives right? Imagine...

Revolt.

A group of forum refugees decide to form another board to protest and leverage the behemoth to bring back the archives and the old board back.

Corps say "fuck off".

New board is kicking their ass. Run by expats for expats and fuck the money.

So we, in our own way, beat corporate "internet" with the spirit of a community.

One tale anyway. Our tale.


http://www.expatforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=1969

[mitchum]

32. Make them fear for their lives...

literally

[cryofan]

33. how so? -eom

[Fla_Democrat]

34. Are you sure that is what you wanted to say?

:shrug:

[mitchum]

37. Uh huh

[Fla_Democrat]

40. Just making sure

So, tell me, whatcha think about the whole....

"Do not post messages that advocate harm or death to anyone, threaten the livelihood of anyone, or otherwise harass anyone." rule thinggy they have going here?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#disruption

Do you think the "Make them fear for their lives....literally" might be in conflict?

Oh, I could see make them fear for their eternal souls, and cover it by following it up with... Putting a preacher out in front of their houses, to preach sermons to them, but the whole make them fear for their lives thing, well, thats something else, literally.


:evilgrin:

[mitchum]

41. How is reminding them of their mortality a threat to do harm?

[Fla_Democrat]

43. How is

"Make them fear for their lives...literally"


"reminding them of their mortality"

As I said, fearing for their souls could be explained away, making someone fear for their life, well, I'm just asking for clarification.

If someone here got an e-mail from a person saying that they should fear for their life, would that not constitute a threat? :shrug:

It would be turned into the FBI so quick it would make the senders head swim.

I'm just asking questions here, so, you don't equate fear for their lives, to a threat? Hmmm, interesting. :eyes:

[solinvictus]

35. Regulate them

If they either outsource or import a predetermined percentage of workers, declare them a foreign company subject to extra taxation. If they do the same, forbid them from bidding on ANY government work at any level. If they are found to use or purchase products manufactured by slave labor, fine the hell out of them and hold the executives personally accountable for the actions of the corporation. Also, make them actually pay corporate income taxes. If they're headquarters is listed in another company, give them sub-standard status behind American based corporations. What's happening is that corporate America is destroying the middle class. I guess the Republicans want this country to look like a Third Wor;d company with rich, poor, and police.

[luisao]

38. Abdicating democracy to corporations is a bi-partisan sport

Pointing fingers only at Republicans for this is simply ridiculous. In many realms, Clinton advanced corporate power to an unprecedented degreee--until GW took Clinton's momentum and boosted it to warp speed!

[Skittles]

39. Clinton by now would be doing something about the fallout

this fallout is exactly what republicans want

[maggrwaggr]

53. right on. And if they want to import to the US, pay big tarrifs

It's pretty simple.

It's the way things used to be, the way the government is supposed to work.

but the government has been dismantled by the corporations.

We need to take the government back.

[knight_of_the_star]

36. Make them afraid

While I agree with John Locke's ideas about human nature, I feel that Thomas Hobbes hit the nail on the head when he said that fear must be the motivator to follow the law in relation to the corporations. I feel that we must put the fear of massive and destructive retribution into their hearts and souls. They must fear the government, they must fear the people. We have to have laws that, so long as they obey they are left alone, but the moment those greedy SOBs step out of line, they get whacked hard by a ton of bricks. They must fear the government and the people, they must know tha tthey are NOT the overlords of society. To make them comply, we must be able to wreck them if need be. One idea I have to prevent an Enron-esque fraud situation is taht if you are convicted of fraud, first off you are tried in a local or state court of where the victims are, none of this federak resort prison crap, put them in with the gangstas for one, and second, on top of the jail time the convicted MUST compensate ALL the victims of the fraud 100%. If that makes the crook in question bankrupt, too bad. That will get their attention.

All that will get their attention is fear.

Let us, "Put the fear of God in them."

[SemperEadem]

74. also, the ability for them to file for bankruptcy protection

must be removed... they cannot seek sanctuary after the fact to save themselves.

[JanMichael]

42. Get rid of "Corporate Personhood". Hell, even T. Jefferson thought...

...that was a dumbassed idea. He was right.

http://www.liberalslant.com/mpb052403.htm

"The amendment would have made it illegal for corporations to own other corporations, or to give money to politicians, or to otherwise try to influence elections. Corporations would be chartered by the states for the primary purpose of “serving the public good.” Corporations would possess the legal status not of natural persons but rather of “artificial persons.” This means that they would have only those legal attributes which the state saw fit to grant to them. They would NOT; and indeed could NOT possess the same bundle of rights which actual flesh and blood persons enjoy. Under this proposed amendment neither the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution, nor any provision of that document would protect the artificial entities known of as corporations."

[Comadreja]

46. Just so!

Corporations had to operate under a charter for limited periods with citizen authority. Just after the Civil War, the RRs succeeded in personalizing corporations by stealth, and their power has grown ever since. How can real people compete with immortal entities with unlimited financial resources and zero scruples?
I think the first steps to end corporate rule have already been taken..Clean Money elections in Maine and Arizona. Get with the Public Campaign in your state. Here's a site dedicated to dethroning corporations: <http://www.reclaimdemocracy.org/>

[tyme]

44. take a look at global economics

outsourcing is what you are whining about. 20-30 years ago the united states was many years ahead of any other country in technology and science. This age has passed. Other countries have developed strong educational systems as well as picking up manufacturing jobs frm the US since they will do it for less money. The only answer is to cut our losses and quit our whining of industry outsourcing. The US simply isn't as effecient as other countries in this area. However we do still have to some degree an educational advantage. We need to develop this by pushing college and graduate education. Also, refurbishing our broken patent and copyright systems wouldn't hurt(something neither democrats or republicans are likely to do on corperate paychecks). but i think in the long run this arguement turns into a big whining session as those of us with skills unique and desired are payed very well.
r

tyme
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
-benjamin franklin
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security
-benjamin franklin
Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.
-thomas jefferson

[sweetheart]

45. wecome to DU

Given that in the longer history view, many of the jobs now being oursourced were "stolen" from those countries in the first place, it is a sort of justice. Britain enacted a law long ago that only allowed raw cotton to import rather than finished product from india, thereby stripping india of all higher value chain jobs... and now the big colony (us) sends the jobs back.

America has no advantage anymore in anything except brutality and ruthlessness. The education systems of competetive nations are far better than your post presumes... and quoting american media spin on how great and world=beating the us education system is is nationalism and not honest comparative reality.

To cut the losses, janmichel has it right, "end corporate personhood" plain and simple.

As for the copyright thing, that will fall out once disney is not controlling the congress... step one fixes step 2.

no matter my ranting argument.

Welcome to DU. It is good to see a spice on board. I use Thyme quite a bit, and have it in my garden as well... but if you are time, then indeed, we are also most familiar.

Namaste,
-sweetheart

[tyme]

55. realistic solutions

ending corperate personhood is a great idea but it is totally unrealistic. corperations would no longer contribute to political parties? what well bribed congressman is going to vote on that? Your answer is a bit to ambitious for even me. As far as the education system, i believe you are looking at figures through high school in which we are definately being beaten at overall, especially by europe. That is okay, but what europe is doing that we don't is pushing these people who are't cut for college into technical schools where they have some skill. Our college system needs to be changed somewhat too. We turn out far too many people who will never work in their majors such as psychology, art/graphic design, political science to name a few. I'm not saying remove these programs, they play a vital roll, but simply cut back on the number allowed in. Jobs will get outsourced in a global economy, what we are not doing is learning to quickly adapt and adjust to that economy.
Tyme

[sweetheart]

60. flexible labour

The education systems in the far east are as well producing candidates more employable in the global economy. However, i detect an element of the "flexible labour" myth in your post.

Realistically in life, people can be expected to become experts in one field every 20 years, as it takes that long to become an expert in a field such as medicine, engineering and such. Certainly some do it faster. When the labour market changes radically, even folks with expert skills become unemployable just like the graduates you mention. (formal economic term: structural unemployment)

The government that ships these persons jobs overseas should also make provisions for the re-employment of such peoples, if it is a second college degree for 40+ years olds, or 60+ years olds who need to work in our specialized economy. Pretending that all career changes are of 20 year olds is part of the problem.

Europe, being more socialist and less of the flexible labour myth, has longer term employment like america was like decades ago, where dad retired at the same company he worked at at 25. Yet even europe has failed its middle aged workforce, except that there is a social network... but training, apprenticeship and such are for twenty-something's only.

Education is the planned economy, and all people have a right to their dignity by having a living wage job. The failure to consider the plight of all 280 million americans in the education system is the failure of capitalist management. Only the wealthy get consideration in university and education. The poor get the dross and are supposed to squeeze in somewhere... and hence america's pathetic rates of child poverty (one out of 3) 40 million without healthcare yada yada yada. All from a failure of these people to figure on the profit-radar of private education planners.

Europe has done a much much better job of considering "ALL" of its citizens in this regard, but i think this largely to its static and falling populations where the need to grow a city by 2 million does not exist.

A realistic solution is the mass disenfranchisement of the american middle classes and their alignment with disenfranchised labour politically to take back all parts of the american government. As is proven in more mature nation states than the relatively young USA, is that socialism is a product of time. Unfortunately the pressures that lead to social justice are rather harsh, and may involved armed civil war, or a post nuclear-war america. Much as how britain's arrogance got her bankrupt in world war 2 to become very very socialist in the aftermath.

The peasants revolt lecture on this website by the ex-leader of the british labour party before neil kinnoch (before tony blair) is an eloquent description. Britain lead america with womens right to vote and many areas of social liberalism, so i believe we are now in a position where the social democratic methods employed in europe will eventually trickle across the pond as well.

http://mp3.lpi.org.uk/

peace,

[tyme]

77. "you say you want a revolution" wait, thats a song

I don't think our arguement really stems from education but simply where to best attack the problem. In the long term, 20-30 years i would agree with you. In the short term however revamping secondary education is the way to go. If Bush was re elected, I don't think this would be remotely possible as any type of organization organizing in this much change would simply be put down, monitored and/or any display simply greeted at the unfriendly end of national guard troops.
tyme

[maggrwaggr]

51. so you think it's okay that they can pollute and abuse

in China and elsewhere?

And we should quit "whining" about it?

Sorry, pal, no can do.

Escaping American pollution laws by going to another country is just WRONG and they should pay for it.

Escaping worker-safety laws by going to another country is just plain WRONG and they should pay for it.

It should not be allowed. That's very simple. What do you not understand about that?

We're not talking economics we're talking morality here.

[tyme]

56. morality? I must have missed that section of the NASDAQ

I am not telling you what you should do, if you believe you can stop outsourcing of jobs, by all means, do it. I am simply skeptical of your outcome. I am looking at a broader means to improve the workforce in the US to create new job markets. As far as pollution and worker safety, that seems part of a liberal agenda to have backfired and now you don't like the outcome. You may not be able to work a job that requires little education and still have clean air and safety in order to be competitive in a global economy. My suggestion is get more education and enjoy the clean air and safety.
Tyme

[cryofan]

58. suppose you own a business....

and you are facing gradually growing competition from some source. Does that mean when business that you may eventually lose walks through your door, you turn it away because, well, it's inevitable that you will lose it anyway, so why even bother?

We are workers of America are businesspeople. If we wish to fight for every dollar as long as we want to, or can, that is a logical desire and plan.

ANother thing: suppose this businessman have a choice of business A or business B. Business A provides $X and Business B provides $X. Business A requires N hours of work for $X and Business B requires N-K hours of work for $X. Should the number of hours required to obtain $X be a factor in choosing which business he/she will go into?

Not too put too fine a point on it, but education costs time and money, and time IS money.

Not too put too fine a point on it, but American workers have a business advantage: we have the largest and most easily accessible market. If your theoretical business A has a similar business adavantage over theoretical business B, would you advise theoretical business A to disregard that advantage? THat is what you are telling us to do. And the fact is that American workers are being propagandized to disregard and not take advantage of our inherent advantages, we are being propagandized to work longer for less money, we are being propagandized to invest money and time needlessly. We are being propagandized to disregard present profit because the source of that profit may someday disappear.

This is an old propaganda game: shorthand for it is "TINA": There Is No Alternative.

[sweetheart]

63. squeezing businesses

Getting americans to identify with business owners is the propaganda trick of the olgarchs to break the more natural alliance of middle classes with the disenfranchised.

We are all encultured to squeeze labour as your post suggests, andthe politics of squeezing labour are republican politics no matter what flowers are painted on the outside.

By your argument, you would really like the book by jack london "the iron heel". It makes an elequent disabuse of the "we are workers of America are businesspeople." and casts it in a really insightful light.

There is an alternative indeed, i agree. Using government to do its job in administering social justice.

peace,
-s

[tyme]

78. squeezing and changing are two different things

The only reason our economy is growing is because of an increase in effeciency brought on by technology. I'll try to seperate the outsourcing of jobs into two seperate catagories, skilled and unskilled.

Skilled labor I would love to see brought back into the states. I believe americans quite simply make better products. There is one area we may not be able to as effeciently compete, computer related, because of the technology boom in India. The outsourcing of programming, engineering and support to india is the only thing which has kept many big us firms afloat.

Unskilled labor, I really don't know about. I cannot say I would be happy making Nike shoes. I know of very few people who are so unable to do something more productive that they should be condemned to such things.

I know many of my views here may not be in line with the democratic parties but they are still my views. I don't claim to be either democrat or republican as neither hold my interrests.This is may be the first and last election I vote in but if democrats can get rid of bush, I'll wear some donkey ears, for a while.

tyme

[sweetheart]

79. Those donkey ears

I myself recently registered democratic to vote in the primary. I have not voted since 1984, though gore carried my state in 2000 with a healthy margin (can't blame me for shrub).

My real view is that america needs a new constitution, as the current one has been systematically abrogated by the 2 things that the founders did not include: corporations/money and mass media. As well, the bill of rights, while world leading in its time is by modern human rights standards, rather meagre and unimpressive for a nation claiming such greatness.

That said, i am against the US government entirely as it is entirely corrupt and evil... but i'll wear donkey ears for now as i believe in peaceful change... but like your own statement, i'm a severe pessimist.

The nation has been waging a war on drugs on ME, as i like cannabis, and am now the terrorist/enemy. Fuck them for using my tax dollars to make me the enemy of the state. They have no right. It is because the constitution did not have campaign finance controls, that mass media is unregulated to usurup the public interest, that corporations are given more rights than individuals and war is deemed more important to the american public interest than educating and caring for its own children.... the country is entirely depraved.

If the country cannot be returned to its founder's "enlightenment" then perhaps its better the country collapse and die in the interest of the betterment of the world as a whole.

Jobs will come to america if we can break the monopoly of the media an money on washington. As it appears unlikely, the world will pass the shit nation by and leave us in poverty out of compassion and global justice. I love america very deeply, but she is totally insane, and old yeller had to be put down.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tyme]

76. I cannot help other countries

To some degree american corperations having incidents like DOW chemicals polution in india where they need to be but are not held accountable. Saying american tradelaws are the problem is perhaps a part but if the american population was really that concerned, large consumer groups would boycott industries which used such practices. They do not, a market continues to exist for the good. As for the rest of the statement, I believe you are becoming a little too violent and unbending on your views as to what is right to continue any sort of objective conversation.
tyme

[manfriend]

48. It's simple

buy stock, go to shareholder meetings.

[maggrwaggr]

52. oh gag me

yeah right. And all those chinese working for the corporations in the polluted pits of Shanghai should do the same, right?

Give me an f'ing break.

One of the major roles of the government IS to regulate, for cryin' out loud. On the most basic level we have this thing called THE POLICE so that we can't rob and beat each other.

On a national level we've now had this thing called "deregulation" which is like having the police say "we trust you not to rob and hit each other, so we're gonna just sit over here and watch TV"

[belab13]

50. this may not sound like an immediate solution, but..

peak oil production, which many educated geologists feel we have already reached, should take care of the rampant consumerism within the next 10-15 years. Let's just pray that the Cheney/Rumsfeld's of the world don't take us down the nuclear conflagration pathway in their attempts to steal the remaining oil fields.

[dusty64]

61. The corporations

ARE the true enemy. They own our government and it works solely for them. What to do? I'll have to think about that one, but an interesting conversation. :kick:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

62. by voting for Kucinich and /or demanding our reps to reinstate REGULATION!

[MadHound]

80. That's easy, here you go

First off, do not vote for any politician who takes corporate money. The only presidential candidate that I know of doing this is Dennis Kucinich. The only party that I know of doing this is the Greens. Next, implement complete and full public funding for ALL elections. Nobody gets to run on their own money, you have a level playing field for a group of candidates who are only beholden to their constituents rather than their war chest donors. After that, use the politicians to reinstate various corporate regulations that have fallen by the wayside, along with passing new regulations designed to correctt some of the more evident problems. Keep this cycle up for twenty years and we should have our government back and the corporations under control.

Corporations, like capitalism are a needed evil in our society, they are the catalyst that drives our economic engine. However giving corporations unfettered influence in our political process is the surest way of turning our democracy into a plutocracy there ever was. Look at what has happened to us so far, it is almost too late. We must take corporate power out of politics and that means that we must vote for candidates that do not take corporate cash. That is the only way real reform can be brought about in this country.

[tinanator]

81. boycott banks, minimize insurance expenditures, stay the hell out of

fast food chains who pay squat and serve garbage. patronize quality locally owned establishments and grocers. Number one though, would be to threaten and carry out a boycott against banks. Think about it.