King a communist!?!?!

[brainwashed_youth]

Now, before I get flamed, I just want to say that I think this is a crock of shit and I don't believe it. But I heard some right-wingers say that King was a communist and they had a pic of him in some communist training school. Does anybody here know anything about this?



p.s. Even if he was a communist, the good most definitely outweighs the bad here and it's not going to change my very high opinion of him one bit

[PROGRESSIVE1]

1. FReeper-types do not like what King did so they have....

to shamfully smear him. Justice and equality are in the eyes of FReepers, bad. You see, it's O.K for the Reich Wingers to slander the great Dr. King but it's wrong to say anything negative about our "fearless leader" Bush who had done some terrible things.

:puke:

[wryter2000]

2. Shades of J. Edgar Hoover

Hoover thought so and invaded King's privacy massively. All he found was a weakness for women. (The progressive's soft-spot, I guess.) You might want to tell your friends that Hoover was a cross-dresser who used FBI agents for his personal servants. Even getting them to work in his garden.

Hogwash.

PS I have nothing against cross-dressers. I do have something against hypocrisy. (This is a Rush Limbaugh, Bill Bennet kind of thing.)

[liberalpress]

3. It is not now...

...nor was it ever illegal to be a Communist in the United States of America

[brainwashed_youth]

6. Some people...

just don't get that

[aquart]

11. Tell that to my grandfather

Who was arrested and held by the FBI and pressured to "name names."

[JanMichael]

4. I think he leaned Socialist, and was defiinetly a leveler

Not at all sure about the photos of King in the communist "training camp."

However, could you ask these RWers where these Communist Training Camps are? My wife is looking for a summer activity for me...this might be just the ticket!

[DuctapeFatwa]

5. The pics of him at the terrorist training camp didn't turn out good

The communist training schools were the only ones with good lighting back then, so they had to go with that.

[FredScuttle]

58. Wasn't there evidence linking Dr. King to 9/11 and Al-Queda?

I believe Jesse Helms had a press conference on this...

(end sarcasm)

[markses]

7. King gradually became a leftist

Which is of course a big no-no today (to tie, for example, systematic racism to the organization of social labor, for instance is strictly verboten in the capitalist triumphant discourse we now lamely call "liberalism").

King was also a brilliant rhetor. A usually unremarked on feature in the "I have a dream" speech is the abundance of economic metaphors to denote the failure of America nto live up to its promise (a promissory note, indeed). Needless to say, this feature is meant to finesse charges of economic communism in the fraught political atmosphere of 1963. But King increasingly made connections between economic exploitation and racism. This is not, of course, to say, that one outweighs the other (the mistake of the 1960's Marxists and economic leftists of SDS), but rather, that they are inextricably bound in one - thank you Dr. King - garment of destiny.

The move under the Democratic reaction (the reaction of the elite Party apparatus) to the economic work of the 1960's has been to focus on issues of identity (race, for one) AT THE EXPENSE OF ECONOMICS, which is naturalized under the capitalist system of exploitation, and exported hither and yon. This is why we see incoherent threads like "Why were the Nazis rightwingers" on this very board: The liberals have sold out the economic critique in their rush toward the center - now they're selling out the identity critique as well. Given the thorough evacuation of these fundamental principles - which were active as recently as 40 years ago - it's no wonder that people have a hard time connecting Nazism with right wing ideology.

[rogerashton]

35. About your sig line.

The Bushes are an exception, you know. The first time as farce, the second time as tragedy.

Of course, they aren't "great figures" in any deep sense.

[markses]

41. I disagree

Bush the Younger is indeed the farcical repetition of the Reagan/Bush the Elder nexus. The key is to understand that a farce is no less bloody and terrible than a tragedy, but merely includes more elements pushed to their absurd consequences. And they are all "world-historical" figures in scope.

[rogerashton]

48. I take your point.

He certainly does have his farcical aspects.

[aquart]

8. "The good outweighs the bad"????

Do you have the smallest slightest idea who the American communists were? What they believed? What they stood for? What they wanted for this nation? How they were persecuted?

What "communist training school"???

Since the ESSENCE of Martin Luther King Jr. was non-violence and the only problem people can really point to with communism (aside from the fact that it doesn't work) is its advocacy of violent overthrow of rotten government and redistribution of property, exactly what kind of school would Martin have been attending?

Jesus H. Christ, you "don't believe it" but you repeat it without the smallest question that even the language of the right wingers is sheer slander.

Tell me, you think the Russians should have just stuck with the Czar?

[brainwashed_youth]

17. calm down

I didn't mean it to be offenseive..honest. Actually, I really don't know about the American communists. Do you? If so, what about them?

[Terwilliger]

9. yes...you need to shed your gullibility

right-wingers are monarcho-capitalistic racists who can't stand any uppity blacks

[flaminbats]

10. I agree that he was a communist...

He believed in stronger communities, a government that withers on the vine, and absolute freedom with no military or law and order ever needed..

[aquart]

13. I'm pretty sure King was more practical than that.

[flaminbats]

18. come now!

we are all either anarchists or nazis at heart.. ;)

[aquart]

23. I ain't. Like a nice balance of power myself.

Adore the constitution. Really. It's my prime religious object.

[flaminbats]

26. A simple choice, anarchy or dictatorship?

which is better...:shrug:

[aquart]

30. Ridiculous. I don't have to play by your rules.

My mommy won't let me, for one thing.

You set up a garbage choice. I call it garbage and make my own choices.

And yes, my mommy really did say, "Never play by their rules."

[flaminbats]

34. The answer is clear....anarchist.

:evilgrin:

[Raenelle]

29. Do you have a reference for that contention?

I never heard those things about King, and it certainly would be counter to the usual big government Democrat of that time. I always took him for a Christian-Gandhi meld. Communism? Belief in stronger communities--99% approval from sentient beings there. A government that withers on the vine--sounds more like Grover Norquist than Karl Marx. Absolute freedom with no military or law and order ever needed--Sex Pistols more than Lenin.

I believe communists are better defined as those who espouse class struggle, dictatorship of the proletariat, dialectical materialism, etc.

[flaminbats]

36. I heard JEH whisper it over the speaker phone!

no really..:wow:

[rogerashton]

39. Stages.

In the "higher phase" of communism, the state withers away (since there is no longer any class conflict to call a state into existence) and "society inscribes on its banner the slogan, from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." However, class struggle, revolution, and indeed capitalism are necessary in their time to prepare for this stage. And after the capitalist class has been overthrown, a continued period of state coercion is necessary in order to suppress the remainder of the capitalist class, motivate workers who are still largely formed by capitalist acquisitive values, and raise labor productivity to make eliminate scarcity and make true communism possible. For a Marxist-non-Leninist, this would be a democratic workers' state.

Buy it or not (and I have my reservations) that's the doctrine.

By the way, the term "dictatorship of the proletariat" occurs only a few times in Marx writings, and by context means that a class exercises exclusive power through a parliament or similar electoral body with a restricted franchise, the term being a contrast to the "dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie," in e.g. England in the 1860's. Lenin's use of the term actually has its roots in the ideas of the French pre-Marx insurrectionist Auguste Blanqui and is not really Marxist at all. Reference: GDH Cole, History of Socialism (sorry, not on line -- you will have to get your hands dusty at a library.)

[Raenelle]

42. Well, you're a lot more rigorous in your thinking than I was

My excuse--I haven't really thought seriously about it for well-nigh on a generation now. Just typing here--and I suppose you'd agree with my intended suppositon--that King was decidedly not a communist, except in some silly 2nd-century Christian way, or some such.

[flaminbats]

45. Proving that shrub would make a better commie than Dr. King...

clearly the great USA is in the state coercion phase. "Show me round those snowy mountains way down south, show me your daddy's farm...Let me her your ballares ringing out, Come and keep your comrade warm, Back in the USSR."

[rogerashton]

51. By "some form of state coercion"

I mean after capitalism has been removed. In fact, I said that. So, no ....

Or then again, maybe yes. If you argue that capitalism is still a progressive system -- that the time when society "breaks the integument" is still in the future and that capitalism still has some time to go in raising labor productivity -- then, yes, Shrubby might merit the support of a "good communist." In Rumania, under Communist regime, Dracula was a socialist hero -- because the real, historical dracula promoted the development of capitalism vs. feudalism. Which he really did ....

Here's some bait for the RWingers who are so scandalized by folks who see parallels between Shrub and Hitler. Shrub is like Dracula!

Well, maybe.

[flaminbats]

55. I knew he was just another bloodsucker...

[liberalmuse]

12. Communism wasn't a bad idea...

and has never, ever been realized on this planet. No society promoting Communism has ever gotten past the Socialist Dictatorship stage, so we'll never know. Communism looks good on paper, but human nature, being what it is has proven this Utopian ideology won't work anymore than a benevolent form of Capitalism.

Anyone who wants to use the public treasury for the good of all rather than to pad the pockets of the already wealthy is called a 'commie' by many right-wingers. Anyone who refuses to recognize 'The Elite' and instead promotes the idea that the earth is here for all, is considered a 'commie'. It should be viewed as a compliment.

It was the Socialist Dictatorship that was so reprehensible, but try explaining that to a wingnut. Try explaining that many of the proponents of Communism could indeed be considered liberal, until some of them veered to the right by picking up their clubs, burning books and trying to force the population into submission to their ideology.

[aquart]

19. You CAN'T get past the Socialist Dictatorship stage.

Power is self-replicating. It clings to what it has and tries to grab more.

In fact, the most communist initiatives in the late 20th Century were the right wing attempts to abolish the American government agency by agency. No bureaucracy would voluntarily relinquish power.

It was funny in a Comedy of Errors kind of way. Completely wrong with no idea why they were wrong....communists and right wing.

A dictatorship of the proletariat is STILL a dictatorship. And it's the pits.

[cryofan]

31. Absolutely! Communism if implementedly properly could be a paradise (nt)

[William Seger]

14. King wasn't, but Stanley Levison was

According to the official story, that's how King ran afoul of Hoover: Levison was a white businessman who was under investigation for being a major financer of the Communist Party before he got involved in King's movement, but that wasn't until about the time that King was organizing the Freedom Rides. I think there were some other alleged communists in King's organization, but that's not a reason to call King a communist.

I think the "communist training school" reference is because King attended seminars at a place called the Highlander School (or something like that), which was alleged to be a communist front organization.

[aquart]

22. And the seminars were in what subject?

[William Seger]

28. Since you asked, I looked it up

It was the Highlander Folk School, Mount Eagle, TN, and there is a famous picture of him and Rosa Parks attending a workshop on "nonviolent protest" techniques.

[aquart]

33. "Non-violent protest."

Oh yeah, that's just SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO communist.

I'm gonna stop giggling in a minute.

[TacticalPeek]

15. RW crap widely peddled in the '60s.

You can tell much more about the person pushing this bilge than it reveals about King.

King's visits or attendance at the Highlander Folk School in Tennessee has absolutely ZERO relevance to whether he or anyone is/was a communist.

Frankly, in those times, King was actually viewed as somewhat conservative by some in the Movement. I more than once heard leftist tough-talk referring to him as an 'Uncle Tom', etc.

I knew commies then, and King was no commie. His moderate, non-violent methods probably saved some sections of our country from an unhappy race war.

I would study the RWers you heard this from, since this claim reveals that they may have gone over the cliff and could be dangerous.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

16. The United States was crawling with USSR paid agents during that time

The probability that King came in contact with them is substatial, the likelyhood that he had USSR agents assigned to watch him and infiltrate his movements is almost certain. For every one of their agents, the FBI had 20.

Like JM said, he was a Leveller, and we were here long before Marx. MLK was no stooge for Moscow, that's for sure.

[aquart]

21. USSR paid agents.

Attempting to do what? Paid to do WHAT?

Paid how much, btw? Was it a good living? I don't recall the USSR ever having a good cash flow.

You know this for sure? You know this how?

I love bland statements that avoid having anything resembling a fact.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

24. the existence of the KGB is not in question

nor were their methods. Hell, we had a few defect. Are you saying that the Soviet Union didn't have a spy program like all the rest of the countries in the world?

[aquart]

27. Not at all. You were talking about spies?

So they were spying on MLK? To what intent?

Were they attempting to recruit MLK? You have evidence of that? What is your evidence?

What use could MLK be to the KGB? Did he have military secrets? Was he inciting people to riot? What were the KGB plans for this man?

Don't just spew bland generalities and expect me to nod yes of course.

You are implying a KGB link with MLK and I want the evidence.

Got MLK?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

38. MLK was a VIP

influential in politics. He's was interest to everyone. This thread is about a supposed link to MLK and "Communist Training School". If I remember correctly, anti-King groups show a picture of King at some kind of class next to someone who may have been related in some way or another to communists. Any union training classes could be spun as some kind of "communist training" and was. A strech? Obviously.

But then it gets tiring to hear people act as if there really weren't agents everywhere. I would assume at some point they would have approached King for some kind of foothold in organization he led. They did this to all groups, right-wing groups too.

I didn't make the association, someone else did. As I said, you can say MLK was a lefty, pro-labor, and a Leveller, maybe even a Democratic Socialist, but there's no way he was a "Communist" as in working for the USSR, no matter how much right-wingers like to insinuate otherwise.

[leesa]

20. They see communists everywhere. They totally bought the US

communism scam to sell arms and topple governments and they can't get over it. I never heard that he was, but who cares if he were a communist??? Such childish thinking.

[prolesunited]

25. King wasn't a communist

but in his later years, he had become an outspoken opponent of capitalism and was trying to unite people of all colors to fight for economic justice.

"There must be a better distribution of wealth, and maybe America must move toward a Democratic Socialism."
-Frogmore, S.C. November, 14, 1966

Here's some links for further reading:

Martin Luther King: Terrorist On the stunning disparity between a nation that glorifies war and one that honors Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. with a holiday

Let's not mince words. Were Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. alive today, he would be at risk for being imprisoned indefinitely, without charges or access to legal counsel, as an "enemy combatant." He would be decried, by powerful figures inside and outside government, as at worst a domestic terrorist, at best a publicity-seeking menace whose criticisms of America gave comfort to our unseen enemies.
<snip>

The literal whitewashing of King also serves another purpose: to locate American racism as safely in the South and in our historical past. The changes of the past half century are, indeed, remarkable; Jim Crow seems today as unthinkable as slavery itself. But struggles against racial equality happened in every state -- not just Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia. As for our progress since then, consider: the persistently huge economic gaps between whites and non-whites; the horrific public health indices in some non-white areas, including the re-emergence of TB and widespread, endemic hunger among often non-white children; the shameful failure of public education in many predominantly non-white school districts; the War on Drugs and its imprisonment of a generation of non-white youth; the race-coded political attacks on welfare and workfare programs; the near-complete dismantling of affirmative action; and the still-striking disparity between how America looks and how its leaders look. We still have a long, long way to go.
<snip>

Dr. King, nonviolent martyr to reconciliation and justice, has become a Hallmark Card, a warm, fuzzy, feel-good invocation of neighborliness, a file photo for sneakers or soda commercials, a reprieve for post-holiday shoppers, an excuse for a three-day weekend, a cardboard cutout used for photo ops by the same political leaders that wage wars and let black children starve.

He deserves better. We all do.
http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=16294

By 1967, King made the critical decision to shift his moral focus. He confronted head-on the capitalist economic structure and the military complex of the United States, and he articulated the links between the two. He witnessed a tragedy that has reappeared in recent years with frightening parallels: a "war on poverty" that mutated into "not even a good skirmish" as funds were diverted to an unjust, immoral war in Vietnam.

Dr. King was murdered just weeks before his Poor People's Campaign, a multiracial mobilization of poor African Americans, whites, Latinos, and Asian and Native Americans, descended upon Washington. The plan was to create such a crisis of nonviolent direct action and civil disobedience in the nation's capital that Congress and the Executive would be forced to deal with the crime of widespread poverty.
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17573

http://www.fair.org/media-beat/950104.html
http://www.geocities.com/mnsocialist/mlk2.html

[Cocoa]

32. red-baiting a guy that's 35-years dead?

even the question "was so-and-so a communist" has been discredited for years.

[ComerPerro]

37. Everyone is a communist, so relax

I was born in 1981, so I thought I would never really know what it was like to live during the Cold War, in constant fear of communists.

But these conservatives just confuse the shit out of me!

"What's that, Reagan is a hero because he ended the Cold War?"
"Right"
"So the Cold War is over??"
"Right"
"THEN ACT LIKE IT!!!!!!!"
"Shut up, you America-hating Communist"


I swear, anyone who does not agree with the administrations ultra-rightwing agenda is labled as anti-American and a communist, for some reason.

Where the fuck are we living? 1950?

[radwriter0555]

40. What's wrong with communism?

In and of itself, it is not evil.

[mopinko]

52. proud to be a pinko

especially if that puts me in the company of mlk.

[morgan2]

43. anyone who wants any sort of

wealth redistribution is considered a communist. He believed in things like reparations and social justice. Both requiring redistributing wealth and control of society. Conservatives refuse to believe that there is any middle ground between capitalism and socialism, anything moving towards socialism is immediately branded as communism because we've all been conditioned to think its bad. The same thing is said about almost all Democrats now. They're called him a communist whenever they want to restrict freedom of corporations.

[Darranar]

44. He was not a communist...

he simply advocated economic justice, which is quite different.

[liberalpress]

57. What?

Advocating economic justice is not Communist? Why if think too inferior to be wealthy poor people ought to have the same opportunites as right-thinking God-fearing wealthy by birthright Republicans you must be a... a... Communist!

[Terwilliger]

46. are you a liberal?

since the people who would label King a communist would also label you a communist, do you think that you're a communist?

[brainwashed_youth]

49. i don't know

enough about the communist party to make that call. The only communism I know about are the regimes under Stalin and Mao Tse Tung. If I was, it would only be something I would share with you guys, as sharing it anywhere else might get my ass kicked

[Bush loves Jiang]

47. You know who else were communists?

Dr. Sun Yat-sen

Imre Nagy

Aleksandr Dubcek

Nelson Mandela

And as far as I'm concered, they were damn fine liberals. And as far as I'm concerned, Dubcek's combination of civil libertarianism and worker (as opposed to bureaucratic) control of the means of production came far closer to making socialism/communism work than anybody else in the Eastern Bloc, and it is my opinion that, without Soviet intervention, Czechoslovakia would have succeeded as a socialist state. Brezhnev's invasion of Dubcek's Czechoslovakia forms the primary ineptus for my dislike of him. (I still think Brezhnev's Afgahnistan government was far better than anything the Islamists who succeeded it had to offer, but that will never make up for the sins he committed in Czechoslovakia, just like Mao's support for Dubcek over Brezhnev will never make up for the sins he committed in Eastern Asia.

[rumguy]

50. What a sad post. No facts, only assertions, why does anyone waste

their time responding to this?

I smell a wanderingbear....

[brainwashed_youth]

53. It was only

something I heard. I said I didn't believe it, I just wanted to see if anybody else had heard about this

[rumguy]

54. can't you do some research on your own?

and then come in here with some actual facts? I'm sure if you googled this issue up you would find tons of stuff about MLK's actual positions on issues!

[buckeye1]

56. Never believe it!

Christians are not communists.

King challenged the white male supremacy. That is why he was murdered. He knew he was going to die. He went forward to his demise. He knew it and he was just about as brave as any man can be.

I am so glad that he has his own day now. I see him as all the dreams that might have been by so many that were denied.

Happy Birthday Rev.King

You are America's true Hero.