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takebackthewh Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 05:10 AM
Original message
Local jerk is bashing Europe now
I can't believe they publish this stuff in my local paper in the south suburbs of Chicago. Isn't there any way to stop this guy?


Revisiting Europe, a place terribly changed since 1970

Sunday, January 18, 2004

By Michael J. Bowers

Star columnist
As you read this on Sunday morning, my dad and I will be hunting through the Clignancourt flea market in Paris.

Dad will look for classy items such as old cast-iron penny banks. I will look for junk. It will be a good time.

It's my first trip to Europe in a long time. In 1970, my dad moved his family to Kaiserslautern, Germany, where he had taken a job as an educator for the U.S. Defense Department school system. We were away four years.

We all loved Europe, especially us two children. To a 7-year-old boy and 5-year-old girl, the continent was a magical museum.

http://www.starnewspapers.com/star/spedit/col/18-co1.htm
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woofless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 05:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. Sounds like this guy should leave
the U.S. and Europe alone and move to Israel. I have long been a supporter of the Idea of the State of Israel but it isn't hard to see that the U.S.'s policy of backing Israel to the point that we demonize Muslims causes real problems for us and the world.

Woof
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 05:29 AM
Response to Original message
2. Wow!
So, the Europe from when he was 7 is different from the Europe he experiences as a 40 year old?

Boy, that sure is surprising. :eyes: Gosh, you don't think he left Europe, at age 7, with a somewhat uninformed childish view of Europe, do you? Nah, of course not.

What an idiot. So much spew and idiocy in that article...not worth pointing out the stupidity, since everyone here will be able to figure out immediately, no matter how drunk tehy are.

idiot.
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 05:45 AM
Response to Original message
3. Jerk - nice way of saying it
Edited on Mon Jan-19-04 05:52 AM by Kellanved
BS on all fronts. Why does he bother to travel to Paris with his mind already set by a selection of "facts" so one-sided that they have hardly any meaning at all?
Comparing/equating the American colony of Kaiserslautern with the rest of Europe sounds interesting; claiming that he understood the then even more fractured Europe as a seven year old is ridiculous.

Some things are just BS anyway; Muslim families have no higher birth-rate than Christian; immigrant families have no higher birthrate than other Europeans. The myth of the many children is xenophobic propaganda. The immigration numbers are falling as well, I don't understand his problem. Does he want us to abandon Freedom of faith, of speech ? Wage war all over the world with no legal basis? What Europe does he want exactly?


Then "But when we struck back, they abandoned us." :wtf: Last time I checked our military was still in Afghanistan. The lack of a 9/11-Iraq link is irrelevant or what?
If Europe is so Anti-American, I wonder why Clinton is so popular? Why was America the all-around cool guy then?
Why is it OK to write such an Anti-European article? Just because Europe is supposed to be Anti-American it's OK to write baseless accusations? I doubt that he'll find similar articles about the US in Paris.
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Spentastic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 05:57 AM
Response to Original message
4. What an idiot
He's wrong as well. Robert Kilroy Silk was suspended by the BBC following complaints regarding an article he wrote for the Express Newspaper. He then tendered his resignation which was accepted by the BBC. As for Paulin, there was massive outrage at his comments. Furthermore he's widely regarded as an extremist, whereas Kilroy is firmly mainstream.

"59 percent of Europeans believe the one nation that poses the greatest danger to world peace is Israel. Not North Korea, Syria or Iran. Israel."

So? We don't believe what the U.S State department tells us? Is that the problem? Was Iraq the no 1 world danger? Israel is undoubtedly a danger to world peace. It's a nuclear power surrounded by those who wish its destruction. Currently at its helm is a war criminal. I'd suggest that Europeans are right to be worried about Israel.

"Meanwhile, those who hate President Bush accuse him of alienating our allies in Europe. "

Oh, so we're blinded by hatred? Not by the fact that Bush did in fact alienate his allies. By lying and bullying and asking for help on his idiotic adventure.

"We are supposed to give it veto power over any war we decide is vital to our national interests?"

No, but you can't expect Europe to cheer you on if they disagree.

"Europe grieved with us on 9-11. But when we struck back, they abandoned us. "

Hmm, that's not true. Europe sent plenty of troops to help in Afghanistan. However when you decided to try an tie Iraq to 9/11 we told you to fuck off and rightly so.

"9-11 shows we no longer can trust its people. The most we can do is tolerate them, warily, and perhaps pity them, while they blithely allow their homeland to drift toward rule by Islamic law"

No if 9/11 shows anything it's that your own government is happy to be allies with terrorist states when it suits them. Europe is not your enemy.

In summary, the guy is an imbecile.

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are_we_united_yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 06:16 AM
Response to Original message
5. What an Idiot
It really needed repeating.
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 06:27 AM
Response to Original message
6. Sounds to me someone grew up, and
thoughts of what life was ,as a kid, did not fit in with the real world.
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oldshoe Donating Member (127 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Oh my, what an ass
I got so pissed off, I sent him the following at his e-mail address:




Dear Mr. Bowers,
I read your column, “Revisiting Europe, a place terribly changed since 1970”
and had to respond. I am an American, too, who visited Europe, in 1975, as it turns out, and have been living there since 1983. While it is true that Europe is changing, so too is America, and each returning trip I make leaves me about as aghast you seem to feel coming this way. I feel that America is becoming ever more intolerant and arrogant. I literally winced when you wrote: “After 9-11, it was time to stop worrying about why our enemies hate us. It was time to make them fear us. That we did, with daisy-cutter bombs and our Special Forces.
Likewise, now it is time to stop worrying about why Europe despises us. Instead, we must make them fear the consequences of crossing us.”

Whoa, pardner. To make someone fear you is to terrorize them, is it not? You are proposing the US use terror on its enemies and allies to bend their will. How is this different from Hamas?

Living here, I have not really seen much hatred of America, as much as I have seen real anger at America’s policies, two very different things. The traditional values America has stood for are still very respected, and the growing concern here is that America itself is straying from its more nobler traditions. What you are suggesting is exactly the thing guaranteed to destroy relationships between Europe and the US. In fact, by calling them false allies, you have totally misunderstood the current dynamics, your four-year childhood visit, and occasional vacation trip here not withstanding.

Europe still has vibrant democracies, lively debate, attempts to be inclusive of all immigrants, which is never easy, as the US experience also documents. Your comments on the indigenous birthrate borders on racism. I suppose you are equally upset about the blacks, Asians and Hispanics soon outnumbering whites in America, and I wonder why you didn’t make that comparison or attempt to let it illustrate our commonalities.

Another difference you seem not to make is a similar anger at Israel’s current policies in Palestine in comparison to Judaism per se. Here too, most people are asking how Israel can be treating another people so harshly, when they were so harshly treated themselves. There is a difference between feelings towards the culture and its people and the current government policy that represents them. Criticism of Israeli policy is not automatically anti-Semitism, just as criticism against Clinton (or Bush) was anti-Americanism. Likewise most Europeans feel Palestinians deserve a decent life too, even while deploring suicide bombers. Once again the legitimate aspirations of a people are a separate issue from the actions of those who claim to act in their name.

Yes, there are anti-Semites, and always have been. But what you don’t often see back home in Chicago is that every time the NeoNazis hold a rally, there is usually a counter rally much more massive in size, often by an order of magnitude or two, made up of people of all ages condemning anti-Semitism, anti-Arabism, anti-anybodism. You may read about a anti-Semitist’s racist letter to the editor, but never hear of the storm of letter that follow in its wake, and thus come to believe that only the first letter occurs, and is thus representative. So I hope you will be gladdened by the news that I bring you, that most Europeans are very aware of slights to Jews, remember the horror of the Holocaust, and take up pen and placard in hand when extremists surface.

There is a strong youth movement here for understanding and cooperation in world affairs. Their demonstrations always dwarf those taking racist, nationalistic, restrictive lines. Unfortunately, present US politics seems to be unilateral and based on prior agendas, both of which are in opposition to this movement. That is why American policy is so feared. It is not a rejection of what America used to stand for. It is a rejection of what America seems to be too drifting towards: self-centered and exclusive politics that uses coercion and threat to gain compliance, and is very aggressive to boot. Europe wants to feel included, and the message coming from the US is as equally rejectionist of their concerns as you feel Europe is of the US’s. They still want an equal partnership, not a vassal’s status, which is how Conservatives keep approaching Europe with its* “We saved your butt from the Nazis and Reds, therefore you owe us again and again and again….” This works, granted, but it does wear thin. Especially in the light of the fact that the intelligence services of Old Europe really have been shown to have been correct about Saddam’s WMD. At some point a true friend, says “buddy, you are wrong about those reasons.” I suspect you believe a true friend fights with you to defend your lies. Or does the real friend take you aside and say “hey, these lies are lies”? Tricky isn’t it? But it doesn’t make one an enemy, for goodness sake.

The mutual feeling of rejection indicates that communication is bad on both sides’ part. The solution is not to polarize further, but to reaffirm the bonds that tie and strengthen. In fact, this is indeed going on. Since the Iraq war, both sides have indeed begun to talk more honestly and compromise a little.

It is the worsening job market and the tensions from the renewed threat of terrorism that scares people, but polarizing ourselves into mutually hostile camps and taking honest difference in opinion as “crossing us” is to split one’s forces in the face of adversity. It is a desperate, almost panicky solution. Have you already forgotten “United we stand, divided we fall?”

US culture is European in nature in its broad definition; a scientific outlook, belief in self-rule via elected assemblies, private corporations based on share-holding, private initiative, music styles, food choices, sense of humor, language…. America is a subset, a narrowed selection of all of this, and living here these last 20 years (I am now 50-years old), I see so many commonalities that I simply groan when reading comments like yours, inexperienced observers who freak out that the rest of the world is not America.

Yes, there are some extremists here as everywhere. Were it not so. But your idea to “make them fear us” is extremism in its own right, and should it succeed, you will have made true enemies of your friends, which is about as self-defeating as it gets. That you cannot see that Europeans in general still like Americans in general, and that what we now have is only political dispute at high levels, borders on the tragic, because you are advocating a policy that would destroy the deep basic respect among we (broadly-defined) Westerners. For that is what we are: the Western culture, basically Europe together with the old British Commonwealth, and you would split it in the face of radical Islam. You would advocate imposing fear on us. And isn’t that another word for terrorism? You are become what you say you oppose.

How foolish can one get?

PS. I posted a copy of this letter on the Democratic Underground Message Board, where I found your original article.


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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. great reply
Thanks for sharing it.
Ah and : Welcome to DU, Oldshoe.
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Spentastic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Bravo
Let us know if you receive a reply.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. Wow!!
That's an awesome letter. Great job!! :yourock:
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crobinson2k Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
10. America and Israel
I'm still new to this, but here goes: I disagree that America is acting the bully in the Middle East. Our not-even-elected leader and his administration is aggressive and so are his policies. I would hope that people all over the world remember the election of 2000 and know he is not acting on behalf of most of the American people. Dumbya is as Dumbya does.

Also, Israel is the only democracy in that part of the world and our only real ally. Part of the left's criticism comes from anti-Semitism and part of it comes from a knee-jerk reaction to automatically take the side of the perceived "powerless". These are the same criticizers who blamed America immediately following 9/11 but would never blame a rape victim for wearing a short skirt.

The kicker? Then these same folks get mad when they're argument is misunderstood and labeled incorrectly. They call those who disagree (but are part of the same camp and, incidently, the same side as well) idiots, morons, etc. If you're getting labeled a Jew-Hater based on faulty arguments, it's not anyone's fault but your own. Re-think the discussion, look into the history, and maybe even check yourself.

Anyway, my two cents.

Sincerely,
The Idiot
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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. This.....
Edited on Mon Jan-19-04 07:55 AM by Darth_Kitten
you are an anti-semite because you disagree with Israel's policy is the weakest thing out there. It's very shameful to say the very least.

It seems you cannot say anything against ANY person associated with Israel. It's getting ridiculous, I've been on sports boards where I've been called an anti-semite for criticizing the performance of a certain athlete from Israel. Gimme a break.

Israel is not beyond comment.

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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Does Israel let anyone vote? Check that out.
On many things I think you have to be a member or in the right part of the religion.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Yes, they do
Israel lets everyone vote. All citizens of Israel are entitled to vote in the parliamentary system. The Israeli Knesset has 120 seats, therefore each .8% of the vote in Israel is worth one seat. If the 1 million Arab citizens of Israel were to all vote together for a single party they could achieve considerable political power.

However, many Arab voters boycott the elections, thereby cutting of their nose to spite their face. Rather than protest Israel by silencing themselves, I don't see why they don't just make a party and all vote for it.

In addition, Israel is the only country in the Mideast which allows women to vote.
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Hav Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
12. .
That was a way too simplified way to deal with this topic from a very simple minded guy.
To the same extent he has the belief that Europeans are antisemitic he is anti-European and anti-Muslims,good job hypocrite.
People like him are beyond help,they are full of hate themselves,yet at the same time they depict other people of hatred.
The sheep will love this kind of journalism though.


"Europe grieved with us on 9-11. But when we struck back, they abandoned us. What kind of ally stands by us when we are a victim, but roots against us when we respond? A phony ally, that's what kind."

What kind of columnist has no idea of the work of a real journalist,can't do any research and gets so many crucial points wrong?A phony one,that's what kind (aka media whore).
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sharkbait2 Donating Member (161 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. You're giving the guy too much credit...
This guy is no columnist. Forget his arguments for a moment (if you could call them that). I have a ten year old niece that writes better than this guy. Pleeease!
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