Stewart Brand vs brian eno

[Dogmudgeon]

They made a friendly little bet on the Presidential Election.

Brand (creator of the Whole Earth Catalog and founder of The Well on-line community) says that a Democrat will be president in 2005.

Brand's Argument:
I'm predicting that by the fall of 2004 it will be an "anybody but Bush" race, and whatever Democrat is running will win.

Voters will be asking themselves, as usual at election time, "Am I better off?" and "Do I feel more secure?" I think they will answer no on both counts. The economy will continue to limp, if not worse, and the Republicans will be held accountable. Iraq will continue to be a running sore, and terrorism will either feel more threatening than ever or hardly a threat at all; either way Bush looks bad. Iraq and other military misadventures will have turned even the military against the Bush administration.

eno (avant-garde musician and musicologist) wagers that a Republican will win the election.

eno's Argument:
I would love to lose this bet, but I feel that the Bush apparatus is so deeply entrenched - by virtue of big money, media laziness and prejudice and by the manipulation of voting processes - that it will prove unstoppable.

I see this administration being able to create emergencies whenever it feels like it...and able to count on TV journos to faithfully whip up the right level of panic so that everyone will basically vote for the party of the military.

They've each ponied up $500, with the winnings going to the non-profit institution of their choice.

Check this one out ... especially eno's take on the Republican media monopoly.

The website -- www.LongBets.org -- is an excellent place to surf.

--bkl
Next:
Taking Iron Mountain by Soft Money

[muchacho]

1. Roxy Music

Eno's a brit, let him sweat Tony Blair...

[tinanator]

2. Eno is one of God's gifts to Humankind

show a little humility.

[muchacho]

5. jeez

you'd think he was Zappa or sumpin....

[tinanator]

6. Zappa?

After Beefheart cleaned his clock, musical accomplishment wise? Who's Zappa?

[muchacho]

8. yes, Frankly

>>After Beefheart cleaned his clock, musical accomplishment wise? Who's Zappa?

Trout Fish was excellent, but come on! Zappa had more innovation (and humor) in his pinkie tan all the so-called pop music "geniuses" rolled into one.

[tinanator]

9. I like em broiled with butter.

Trout Mask, on the other hand I prefer in both ears. And that was only the beginning. I dont think Zappa was all that much of an innovator, and he certainly lacked what Beefheart and Magic Band had in spades. He couldnt write a polyrhythm if his life depended on it, time signature changes are fun, but not magical, just mathematical.
Todd Rundgren, Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, Adrian Belew, Brian Eno, Miles Davis, all had Zappa covered handsomely. Not that he isnt an all time great American composer, but dont try to place him above Eno, or all others. At least, not while I'm in earshot :)

[Rooktoven]

14. Adrian Belew learned from Zappa

Where do you think he got his start? (Read: Sheik Yerbouti..)

I'd place him above Eno as a strict composer. Eno's greatness stems largely from technical innovation-- ambience, not arranged notes per se.

[tinanator]

16. Zappa showed him how to play odd time sigs, thats the extent of it

Also, he gave the world Adrian by rescuing him from a nearly failed career. He did not give him the gifts he already had and continues to use to great effect. Eno was NOT a technical innovator, he has the ears and brain of true musical genius. Perfect notes, every time. Sound on sound recording techniques and studio technology existed before he took it to the best level. Not to dis Zappa, but his most notable and unique contributions were lyrical. His guitar playing is absolutely terrific, but a good part of the pleasure is derived from technological advantages in terms of how he recorded/transduced his guitar playing. He also benefitted from some of the best musicians that he was happy to harness, although he may have limited their possibilities to a great extent. In other cases, he freed Beefheart and the Magic Band to make history, and that may be his single greatest accomplishment.

[Rooktoven]

17. I have to disagree

While Zappa's lyrical contibutions are immense, there are a whole lot of melodies that are instantly memorable the first time you here them from Zappa, and his orchestration will stand up to anyone's.

He may have freed up Captain Beefheart, but I've never been totally won over by Trout Mask Replica. I can think of about 10 infinitely more listenable Zappa albums without even trying.

And Eno certainly WAS a technical innovator. Yes, people may have used tape loops before, but not the extent Eno did. I don't see how you could listen to something like Fripp and Eno's "No Pussyfooting" and dispute that.

I stand by saying Eno is all about Sounds, and Zappa is all about Notes. Both surrounded themselves with highly talented people who made their products better.

Don't read this as an Eno Dis. I have a slew of his work, along with 801, cluster, etc. Each are geniuses in their own right.

(But Zappa was the *musical genius. ;-) )

[tinanator]

19. Must be counting gnat notes

because by and large Zappa merely used existing styles and references to construct his pieces. Eno's revox music was no more innovative than Zappa's redux of blues, sea shanties, his favorite composer and heavy metal power trio riffs. He worked his musicians hard, and put together grandiose sounds with his NED, but when you listen to the big picture, Eno achieved much more with a lot less busy work. It isnt all about Space Echoes and studio toys, it is about the final piece of work. Zappa was very much a shock oriented lyrically sardonic flash master. Absolutely great stuff, especially his first album and Thing Fish. Lots of musicians havent got themselves into TMR, and maybe thats best for them. It can really fuck you up, and spoil everything else out there. Gotta love Cluster/Eno, some of the best Electronic Music Rock ever done. But even that was just watered down Eno. Brian Eno is the King, Lead Hat or no.
Give it up for Pauline Oliveros and Charles Amhirkanian's "I am sitting in a room", those were innovative works. Eno is a proper genius whose music belongs to history and the universe.
Who did Eno surround himself with to improve his work? I can only think of individuals and groups who literally BEGGED to have his input.

[sendero]

12. Sorry....

... Eno is in a completely other universe from Zappa. I like them both but there is no comparison really.

[Beaker]

3. but what did Robert Fripp have to say?

I'm a big Eno fan, and I hope that he loses his bet, but the nagging fear in my gut tells me he's probably correct.

[tinanator]

4. I am NOT a teletubbie!

"but my rabbit really loves the show."

[sendero]

11. I don't think.....

... Fripp is as much of an observer of politics as Eno.

He used to (and still does although less frequently) post diary entries on his website (disciplineglobalmobile.com) and he is long on philosophizing but I've rarely seen him discuss current politics.

Fripp's writings alternately amuse, impress and annoy me :)

[Rooktoven]

15. I agree on Fripp's writings...

One of Zappa's albums sum up Fripp. "Shut up and play your guitar..."

[Rooktoven]

13. With you, but

I'm a huge fan too, but I think he's wrong here. Especially if edwards is the nominee.

By the way, my take on Zappa vs Eno--

Zappa- An amazing satirist and one of the foremost composers of the 2nd half of the 20th century. (I would say only Miles Davis or Tom Jobim could potentially surpass him-- I don't include Lennon and McCartney only because they had George Martin to Orchestrate.)

Eno-- One of the greatest technical innovators in music. Great producer, better solo stuff. The albums with Fripp are also prety amazing.


Both have (had in Zappa's case) a great sense of humor, though Eno's is a bit obscure.

[XNASA]

7. Brian Peter George St. John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno...

...is a wise man.

And although I'm not a betting man, I'd say he has a very good chance of winning his bet.

I highly recommend "A Year with Swollen Appendices" which is Eno diary from 1995 in book form. Very enjoyable.

Also visit Enoweb at:

http://music.hyperreal.org/artists/brian_eno/

[sendero]

10. I'm a long time Eno fan..

... both of his music and of his essays and writing. He is a keen observer and has had many great insights over the years.

I read "A Year" back in 1996. Very interesting read.

I hope he is wrong but we definitely have our work cut out for us.

[Rabrrrrrr]

18. Anyone grab Eno's "January 07003" CD?

I just discovered it here:

http://www.longnow.org/store/BellsCD.htm

But it came out last May.


Bell sounds he made for the 10,000 year clock.

Cool!!

Amazon has some downloads.

Eno is great. Love him. Love Zappa. Love Stewart Brand. Love Danny Hillis. Love the Long Now Foundation.


I posted an Eno thread last night: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=662134&mesg_id=662134