Was prayer/Bible ever in public schools?

[carrowsboy]

I'm trying to respond to this nutter letter...

"Prayer and the Bible were taken out of our schools and we know what happened to our public school system. People that choose to be blinded to the truth and the word will one day stare truth in the face."

....and....

"With just the partial birth abortion issue, if only we had known 50 years ago that our country would allow little babies to be murdered in such a violent way while still in the safety of their mommy's body. We could have never believed that could ever happen, but it does. Even so came Lord Jesus!"

Thanks!

[displacedtexan]

1. I was there.

White middle class men made the rules: girls wore dresses in PE class; there were no kids with disabilities or special needs in my classes; blacks got our old text books when we got new ones; pregnant girls were sent to homes or to back alleys; poor kids and most girls didn't go to college. Prayer and the bible took up valuable class time.

Anyone who wants the country to return to the "values" of those days is a freepin' moron.

[gator_in_Ontario]

2. We prayed every morning

when I was in 1st grade in public school in FL. It would have been 1964-65. By 2nd grade, prayer had disappeared, but we still said the pledge. I really don't think it had much to do with the "decline of civilization" as some right-wingers seem to think. There were even larger forces at work. And no-one was told NOT to pray....don't know how anyone would have known whether we were praying or not, actually.

[ramapo]

3. You can still pray in school

There is nothing that stops anybody from taking a moment to say a prayer to themselves. I don't believe that God/Jesus thinks any less of your prayer in such a circumstance. At least it's original thought.


State-sanctioned prayer in schools was declared unconstitutional in 1963. I was in third grade. The teacher used to start the school day leading us in the Lords Prayer.

My school district briefly ignored the ruling and continued the formal prayer. The district was threatened with contempt of court and/or loss of aid. I recall our district was involved in the case at the Supreme Court level.

As far as abortion...there has always been abortion and always will. The difference is before 1973? a woman took great risk in having the procedure. The same people who decry abortion are usually against birth control/sex education. Obviously birth control could sugnificantly reduce the need for abortion.

[jmowreader]

16. You're right about abortion, partially

Abortion was only a risk for women of modest means, or those who didn't live near a state where it was legal.

I remember when I was growing up hearing stories about my mom's low-morality classmates who would sleep with the boys in class and use coitus interruptus as birth control. As we know, coitus interruptus is not known as a highly effective form of birth control, so on those occasions when it failed utterly, these girls would have to "go to Spokane" where there were doctors who would perform legal abortions.

Rich women would go to Tahiti or the Bahamas or some other sunny clime for a week or so for their "bad nerves"--and once they'd visited the doctor who would remove the source of their bad nerves, they were right back at it.

I would assume that the very rich, those who knew the right doctors, could go get their little problem taken care of through "menstrual extraction"--the society season is getting ready to start, you don't want menses staining your expensive gowns, so you go to a doctor who will extract them for you. You know you need a menstrual extraction when your period's two weeks late and you're puking your guts out every morning.

If you lived in the South, you couldn't just up and go to Spokane to have your problem solved. That's when the back-alley witch doctors come in.

None of this right-wing right-to-life crap is aimed at stopping abortions. Personally, I don't think they care one way or another--we all know about Dubya's girlfriend. It's about controlling women. If you can prevent pregnancy when you want, end pregnancy when prevention fails, and control access to your "naughty bits," the neanderthal men who seem to be the majority of the GOP lose most of their control over you. I'm positive they would pass a law making it a felony to say "not tonight, dear" if they could.

[SemperEadem]

46. uh huh..

"The same people who decry abortion are usually against birth control/sex education."

they are also the same people who would run out and get one for their teenage daughter if she came home pregnant. They are hypocrits of the worst order.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

4. you should ask

why they'd want a government official teaching their kid religion. You should also ask for documention about when, and under what cicumstaces, Prayer and the Bible were in schools - and when they were removed.

You could also respond by saying that if you think our problems in schools are caused by GOd being taken out of them, why do other countries with Secular education have much better school systems than we do.

You could also ask why, if ever there were such a thing as prayer and the Bible in school, schools were segregatedt. Is segregation godly?

[Tansy_Gold]

26. "government officials teaching religion"

That argument no longer works.

The ultimate goal is to have ONLY those who are "approved" teaching in the "public" schools.

Any teacher who does not abide by the state-sanctioned religious instruction guidelines will not be able to teach.

It's not that they want government control of religion; they want their religion to control government.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

5. NOPE went to public schools in the south in the 50's...we never had prayer

nor Bible readings....also learned the pledge the original way, before the "under God" was added....then in 56 had to relearn it because of the "red scare"

south florida...miami beach ...dade county...no prayer nor Bible thumping...i thank God for my jewish family and friends for nipping that in the bud....religion is personal and should be taught by parents and churchs

[RebelOne]

23. I beg to differ.

I went to school in South Florida in the '50s. And we prayed every morning. Elementary, junior high and high school.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

27. really what school did you go too?....we did not

[RebelOne]

34. Quite a few of them.

But the main ones were Miami Springs Elementary, Hialeah Junior High and Miami Technical High. And I remember we had prayers every morning.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

56. I went to southeast elem hialeah..and miami springs jr high and we didn't

...i must know you :7

[Punkingal]

6. Yes, it was,

and it still was in my school, long after it was not supposed to be. I don't think anyone ever complained about it, because it was a rural area of Tennessee, and no one would dare admit to having a problem with prayer, anyway. Girls wearing pants was frowned on, and there was no special education, and people still went to the principle's office for spankings, too. (But only the boys were spanked.) It seems like a 1000 years ago, compared to today.

[Devlzown]

7. I think it was a local option.

I'm 34, and I don't remember prayer or Bible readings in school. My parents do, but they say it depended on who the teacher was. I'm sure it made a big difference if the principal was a Bible-thumper too.

[alcuno]

8. I've heard people who went to school in the 40's and 50's say

that they had some prayer in their schools; not all of them. There was never any edict that said no prayer in schools, just individual decisions by School Boards and lawsuits over time.

BTW - Where's the proof that there is a direct CAUSATION for taking prayer out and a perceived erosion of the schools (personally I wouldn't agree that the problem is as great as is implied.) Why doesn't the writer instead make the argument that it was the integration of the public schools beginning with Brown v. Board of Education in 1954 that has caused the 'erosion?" Certainly the time frame would fit. You see they are saying it's "prayer" but what they really mean is "integration." The problem is that they can't say it without being rightly called a racist. Therefore, they've switched over to prayer in the last 15 years.

[Silverhair]

33. You are wrong. Prayer is NOT a code word for integration.

I know, and have known, lots of folks over the years since that supreme court ruling, and they are still upset over it. Believe me, when they are talking about PRAYER, they are talking about PRAYER, not intergration.

I also know black people that aren't happy about prayer being removed from the schools.

To understand them does NOT mean I agree with them. The gov't should not be teaching religion, nor should it be interferring with the free exercise of it.

[alcuno]

42. I'm not so sure that I'm wrong as I've seen no evidence that I am.

Think about the idea of prayer in the public schools and the people promoting it (I went to a Catholic high school, by the way.) Why is it so important for people to have prayer in the schools? They say that they are concerned with the "morals" that are being instilled in our children. When you look at the public school system, where is there an abundance of problems with violence, drop-outs, and uninvolved parents? Or in other words, where might they think that morals are missing? The answer is the inner-cities/urban areas of the United States. Who lives in these inner-cities/urban areas? The answer tends to be minority populations.

I'm sure that there are some very well-meaning people out there who do not see the parallel, but to me it's pretty clear. When it became apparent that the argument over integration was lost and when society as a whole turned against racism, many developed a new front for their cause.

There was no argument in the 60's and 70's over school prayer. It was only in the 80's that it gained a following.

[SoCalDem]

9. In junior high we started every day

with the lord's prayer, pledge of allegiance and we had to recite "Trees"..

My home room was a distant cousin to Joyce Kilmer :eyes:..

They said the protestant version of the lords prayer, so I would never say the end of it (Catholic,here)..

Even as a kid I was uncomfortable with it.. I can imagine how a jewish or muslim child must have felt:(

[TrogL]

10. When I was a kid

Every morning we had the Lord's Prayer and a Bible reading. This would have been in the timeframe 1959 to about 1966.

Those who objected (eg. Jehovah's Witnesses) were allowed to stand in the hall. Nobody seemed to make a really big deal out of it.

[HereSince1628]

11. The Gideons would occassionally hand out new testaments

on the sidewalk in front of the high school building and on that day there would be scriptures in the school.

Growing up in Elgin, IL and attending school from kindergarten in 1958 to high school 70 we did the pledge with the 'under God' statement through 6th grade.

In grade school we also sang as a multi-grade choir honest to goodness Christmas carols which certainly had a christian message.

I am pretty sure that physics, chemistry and math classes had a lot of praying.

[atreides1]

12. Not That I Can Remember

I went to school in Hawaii, started 1st Grade in 1965. We did three
things, we recited the Pledge of Allegiance, sang America, and sang
Hawaii Pono'i, the Hawaiian National Anthem.

But we did not say a prayer.

[many a good man]

13. Catholics started it

Catholics in big cities were the main force in the drive to remove school-led prayer. As Catholic immigrants went to urban public schools in large numbers, they felt discriminated against by Protestant school teachers who told them that their prayers were "wrong" and their religion not properly Christian.

Public schools have a tradition of being locally-controlled in this country, which led to a tyranny of the majority. State and federal courts in this country have done the right thing to remove state-led and state sanctioned worship that demeans minority sects or religions.

[Tims]

31. Agreed

(see my post #29)

It's been so long since prayer was allowed, few people remember (or have conveniently forgotten) that there were many Christian and Jewish groups who were advocating the removal of prayer from schools long before Murry-O'Hare and that many of these groups had been successful in many school districts. Today there is far more religious diversity, even among Protestants, than there ever was before the court ruling.

If the ruling is ever overturned, I would say it would only be a matter of days before the very people who had been yelling the loudest for the return of payer to schools would be at each other's throats and filing law suits against each other.

Separation of church and state has never really been about theism vs. atheism, it's always been about religious freedom, to not be persecuted for one's beliefs and a person's right to choose what those beliefs are.

[SemperEadem]

48. not to mention

"Separation of church and state has never really been about theism vs. atheism, it's always been about religious freedom, to not be persecuted for one's beliefs and a person's right to choose what those beliefs are. "

and let us remember that we're talking about children, not adults here... some children are already persecuted enough at school by bullies and those not spun tightly enough without having to defend why they believe what their parents have trained them up to believe.

We don't need persecution by the Inquisition. Removing that religion trigger from the equation provides children with a safer education enviroment because they aren't called upon to navigate the religion minefield.

[NashVegas]

39. Tit for Tat

There's also the matter that at the turn of the 19th-20th century, when the notion of public schools was really taking off, the majority of private, non-elite schools were Catholic. Protestants didn't want government funding parochial schools for that reason.

[Silverhair]

14. Yes. The school I went to, from 1st grade to 12th,

started each day with a non-denominational Christian bible verse reading and non secterian prayer. In grade school the teacher lead us in prayer before meals.

[Bridget Burke]

15. Not in mine.

High School graduating class of 1966, semi-rural outskirts of Houston. In the elementary years, the day began with the Pledge of Allegiance & "My Country 'Tis of Thee". There may have been a prayer at an assembly or special occasion; I seem to recall somebody reciting the Lord's Prayer "wrong"--not as the Catholics do. Generally, religion was NOT part of the curriculum.

There was a yearly Christmas pageant in elementary school; since the student body was mostly Protestant with a few of us Catholics, I don't think this offended anybody. One year, the closing song was the last verse of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic"; the music teacher let us know it applied to Civil Rights:

"In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea
With a glory in his bosom that transfigures you and me
As he died to make men holy, let us live to make men free.
His truth is marching on."

Once I got to Junior High, there were a couple of Jewish kids, which I thought was very cool.

[donsu]

17. no prayer - started kindergarten in '39

nt

[jmowreader]

18. We had it in ours, but it was mellow

The Gideons came to our school in the seventies and passed out the little Gideon's Bible to all the fifth graders. We all took one. Don't ever remember reading it, but it was free and of course you're going to take free stuff.

Don't remember ever having organized prayer except once--the baccalaureate service the week before graduation. You didn't have to attend but just about everyone did. (Okay, most of the girls who went planted observers in the audience who could tell 'em if their hair and makeup worked with the Old Gold caps and gowns the girls in our school wore.)

[Yupster]

19. I still have the memory

we said a prayer, had milk, cookies, and then took a nap by putting our heads on our desk for half hour or so with the classroom lights out.

This would have been around 1964-65. This was in Staten Island New York. Nice memories looking back.

[leesa]

20. No prayer that I recall. Of course, like now, you were perfectly

free to say a prayer to yourself at any time.
Regarding aborion...these nasty people have NO PROBLEM murdering Afghan and Iraqi children, including the ones that might be in the dead Mommy's womb.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

21. Went to public schools in Minnesota and Wisconsin

at a time when it really was like Lake Wobegon--almost everyone was either Lutheran or Catholic.

I did have school prayer in kindergarten, but it was at a Lutheran school, so no problem.

From grades one through twelve, we had no school prayer. None. Minnesota did have "released time," in which churches and synagogues could take kids out of school for an hour or so once a week for religion classes, but only two of the six churches in down took advantage of it. We also had Christmas celebrations. But never any prayer.

More significantly, neither my mother (Minneapolis public schools all the way, 1920s and 1930s) nor my father (small town in northern Minnesota, same era) nor my stepfather (Omaha, Nebraska, same era) nor my grandmother (Minneapolis public schools early 1900s) ever had school prayer.

Oregon, with its long history of secularism, not only never had school prayer but actually banned religious-sponsored schools for a few years in the 1920s, mostly under the influence of the rabidly anti-Catholic Ku Klux Klan. (Not many people know that Oregon was the northern state with the strongest Klan presence in the 1920s and that during the 1940s, Portland was considered the most racist Northern city.)

[elfin]

22. Yes - I remember

each day would start with the teacher reading something. don't know if New Testament or not. I never listened..... and now I'm a Democrat, a truly evil person.

[SoCalDem]

24. In HS we could take time off on Ash Wednesday to go to church

Shame on me.. My girlfriend and I would take off and go shopping, and then put ashes on our foreheads (from the car ash tray)..

I am going to HELL :)

[forgethell]

25. Yeah, when I was growing up

we spent 5 minutes a day, first thing in the morning. Pledge of Allegiance and a pretty harmless prayer. I say harmless because it had absolutely no content in it. Whichever God was being addressed wouldn't have known it was Him.

[kath]

28. It's STILL there, in the South (or at least until 4-5 years ago)

There was an absolutely chilling article in George Magazine in November of 1998 or 1999 titled "What Would Jesus Do?" about a Jewish family in Alabama. The children were viciously harassed at school because they didn't participate in the praying (a teacher tried to force one of the kids to bow his head during the prayer) and just in general because of being Jewish. Kids at school drew swastikas on the back of their clothing in permanent marker, played "Keep Away" with one of the boys yarmulkes, and other fun stuff like that. When the mother complained to school officials, one of them said "well, y'all could just convert" to make it easier!! It brought tears to my eyes to read it.

[Tims]

29. Yes and No

I started school in the late 50's in a small town in south Texas. There was no school lead prayer or bible readings. There were student lead payers before football games and such, but nothing during class time. It may have had more to do with the 50/50 population split between Catholics and Southern Baptists in the town than any liberal thinking. The positions on the interpretation of the bible and prayer where so at odds with each other between these two groups that avoidance was probably seen as the best approach. When the court ruling came down in the 60's, there was passive acceptance by even the most conservative in the community and nothing really needed to be changed in the schools (student lead prayers at school sponsored athletic events would not be challenged for many years).

My sisters, who were several years older, started school when we still lived in Columbus Ohio and prayer and bible reading were a regular part of their daily class activities.

My wife attended school in all white suburb of Houston and morning prayers were read over the school's public address system everyday up until her graduation in 1972, long after the supreme court's Murry-O'Hare ruling and clearly in defiance of the law.

My response to those who advocate prayer in school (or any breakdown of the separation of church and state) is to ask if they believe that the message of their religion is so weak and the hand of their Lord so frail that they need the assistance and the power of the state to do what their churches and their God cannot. Does God need endorsement by the state to give Him credibility?

[jpak]

30. We HAD to pray out loud or go to the corner

and the Gideons came every year to pass out Bibles.

To make matters worse, the nuns at Catechism told us that if we said the Baptist version of the Lord's Prayer at school, we would go straight to Hell.

So every day we had to make a choice - Hell or the Corner.

Not a choice a 7 year old should ever have to face.

[Tims]

35. Was that a PUBLIC school????

Sounds more like a Catholic school. If it was, then they have every right to whatever form of indoctrination suits their fancy.

This brings up the perils of school vouchers. It is likely the only choice most people will have is between an underfunded decaying public school or Hell in a religious school. Non-sectarian private schools are rare and usually quite expensive (a voucher would hardly offset the cost for most people).

[jpak]

36. It was public school

Catechism classes were at church.

[many a good man]

51. Catholic schools

I attended Catholic schools from 5th-12th grade. Only one class out of the whole day was devoted to religion. There really wasn't any intrusion of Catholic doctrine in any of the other classes. In fact, many non-Catholics attended my school, and they were allowed to sit out the religion class.

My school also picked up a lot of kids who were kicked out of public schools because of recurring discipline problems--most adjusted and responded much better to the greater level of discipline and respect. Many others attended because of the more disciplined environment (and to avoid being bussed across town to the black schools). The overall curriculum was what you would call "classical:" back to basics, rote memorization, dead white guys, etc. This was the 1970s.

[theboss]

32. My mom prayed in the 50s and 60s

My dad did too, but he went to Catholic School.

[no_hypocrisy]

37. Prayers (until Ed Shemp and Madeline Murray O'Hares' case) and Bible

Education (until Vashti McCollum's case).

If you wanted to "opt out" of classroom time devoted to religion, you would have to go to a vacant room, which was usually the room reserved for punishment/detention. That gave you a stigma by association that you must be "bad", "wrong", etc. for not staying in class to learn about the Bible and/or pray.

The above First Amendment heroes/heroines protected the rights of a minority by preventing members of the minority from being made to feel excluded from their peers on the basis of religion.

[kcwayne]

38. I had a teacher that prayed over a girl suffering from an acute asthma

attack, instead of getting her to the nurse. At the time, we were conducting a science experiment with potatoes suspended in water to seeing the roots sprout. The water turned putrid, putting out a noxious odor. One hot day (no AC back then) the smell was overpowering and it set this girl off onto a horrific attack. I thought she was going to die.

The teacher proceeded to call on Jesus to help this poor afflicted girl. I remember thinking that this was really stupid (I was in 3rd grade) and that we should get the girl to the nurse. I said so, and the teacher told me to shut up and pray. The teacher happened to be my Sunday school teacher as well. Little did she realize that her stupidity started me on the road to atheism. That was the first time I can remember thinking that prayer wasn't good for anything, and you'd have to be really dumb to think Jesus would show up and heal my friend.

And yes, we said a prayer everyday before the pledge of allegiance. This was in 1963 in Portsmouth Virgina.

[theboss]

40. I'm not doubting you . . .

.. .but I see these kinds of anecdotes about "Christians all the time here." I went to Church twice a week until I was 18 and have been a regular church-goer for 30 years in four different states. I've never met one person who would do something like this.

This woman sounds mentally ill. I wouldn't use her as an example of Christians.

[kcwayne]

43. You've never heard of Christian Scientists?

My teacher wasn't one (we were Methodists), but I remember her being overtly religious. From my recollection of her, I wouldn't say she was mentally ill.

I have met fanatical Christians including Mormons, Penecostals, Southern Baptists, Church of Christ, and Moonies who have displayed similar deficiencies in reasoning skills over the years, so you must not have that look of "needs savin" that attracts these cretins into my world.

I have also met Christians that are balanced, intelligent, and a pleasure to be around. I am married to one. From my experience, Christians fit the bell curve of humanity the same as non-Christians. They are comprised of people from all ends of the spectrum. Empirical evidence suggests that belief in Jesus does not skew one to the intelligent/moral or stupid/immoral group of humanity. Looks to me like they get spread around on all the faults and postive attributes of humanity, the same as everyone else.

[theboss]

47. I think Christian Scientists ARE insane

They strike me more as a cult than anything. I don't understand their doctrine.

And I agree with you that Christians are just the same as everyone else. But I get defensive on this board sometimes because "Christian" automatically equates "medeival world-view" with a lot of people.

[Jacobin]

41. Never was in mine in 1950's and 1960's. NEVER

And I live in the deep south.

[Individualist]

44. Went to public school in TN

The day always started with a recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance followed by the Lord's Prayer, then the teachers would read a few verses from the Bible.

[SemperEadem]

45. that's rich..

" if only we had known 50 years ago that our country would allow little babies to be murdered in such a violent way while still in the safety of their mommy's body"

Those little babies are the same ones that these creeps refuse tax money to to feed once they are out of their mother's bodies, walking and talking. They care no more about born babies than they do for elderly people who have to eat cat food because they can't afford to live decently in their fixed incomes.

The right to life movement is proven by how they embrace the HMO's and dismiss those who are already alive and living--only pink babies who can't talk back are worthy of protection--not grandma or grandpa who can't afford to eat decently.

[ribrepin]

49. Prayer in School

1955--Montana-No Prayer
1956--Florida-Lord's Prayer
1957--Montana-No Prayer
1959--Washington State-No Prayer

[Ilsa]

50. I graduated in 1976 and our stupid school still had daily prayer.

It was watered-down, almost meaningless tripe. The religious kids thought they were nonsense because they were slush. The nonreligious kids didn't listen anyway, but they put up with it because they didn't want to be in trouble for something like this.

We had a 50% drop out rate between junior high and high school, mostly due to pregnancy and boys leaving to work to support their young wives and babies. No real sex ed.

The system was a failure then as much as it is now, if not more.

[davsand]

52. Oh yeah, it was there.

And I know the family that fought it. One of the sons STILL is disliked by some for who he is.

Read this article about the issue!

http://surge.ods.org/idle/spray2.htm

The fundamentalist Christians simply will not give up on the public school prayer issue.

One wonders how many more times we will have to go over this issue. The thing that puzzles me is how, exactly,the right-wing of Christianity expects to benefit if the teachers of America start praying as the school day begins. Do they expect better children or miracles in the classroom?

It simply puzzles me that right-wing Christians can't let go of this issue, because the separation of church and state is so ingrained in our consciousness that it would take a revolution to reverse our thinking.

Besides, wasn't it all decided 50 years ago, when Vashti McCollum took her case all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court and won?

McCollum was incensed that the Champaign,Illinois public schools were pressuring her son, Jim, to attend released-time religion classes inside the school building. McCollum believed that the law prevented religious people from coming into a public school building for the purpose of evangelizing children. McCollum was truly infuriated when she learned that her son had to sit in the hallway while the religion classes were taught...

The guy that wrote this is a minister!

Here is another article about Vashti and the SCOTUS decision:

http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/march98/vashti.html

Pax to you!

Laura

[pdx_prog]

53. Never remember organized

prayer in scool. I went from '64 to '73 in SW Missouri, and '73 to '76 in Tenn. We always said the pledge of allegiance in grade school but that was it. I went to school with Jewish kids in both Mo and TN, and they were never ridiculed or looked down upon....heck one kid was the best Defensive tackle in the school's history.

What I digged in high school was that after lunch we would have a two minute silence for anyone that wanted to pray to whomever.....if you wanted to just sit there you could, just as long as you were quiet

[roguevalley]

54. When I was a kid, we had the pledge and then the Lord's

Prayer every day until Madeleine Murray O'Hair won her case. It was a public school in Oregon.

[lumpy]

55. I was schooled in Alaska and

the state of Washington public schools. The Alaska school was federally run (before statehood). I didn't experience prayer or Bible readings at any school. Different times different morals. Respect for teachers, parents and society was a given. Every thing I needed to know about morals was taught by parents and the church. Spiritual growth was left up to the individual, thank God.

[ThomWV]

57. Yes - Montgomery Country Maryland, Mid-50's