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Could BBV scandal actually keep Bush in office?

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IkeWarnedUs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 12:13 PM
Original message
Could BBV scandal actually keep Bush in office?
First, don't get me wrong - I want BBV abuse to become public knowledge. Even if this could be the outcome, the truth MUST come out.

I wonder though, with the primaries underway and the election drawing closer, could the election be "postponed" until the issue is resolved, keeping not only Bush, but the Republican controlled Congress in place?

At what point would there really not be enough time to add voter verifiable paper trails to the existing machines?

Is it realistic to demand simple paper ballots in November 2004? Granted, it may take a long time to count them all, but hey, it took over a month to find out who won in 2000 with machines.

How can past BBV voting fraud be corrected - if it can at all? Is it possible that Bill Clinton could be put back in the White House as the last legitimately elected president? Could the Oval Office go to Hastert as the next in line who was legitimately elected by his constituents? What about Congress - examined state by state for legitimacy of their state's voting methods?

Again, I am NOT suggesting BBV should not be exposed, but have these questions been addressed?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. Paper Ballots are the only way
Edited on Mon Jan-19-04 12:36 PM by BeFree
to stop this insanity. As you pointed out, the machines caused a month delay in the count the last time around. While there may be no recourse for Justice in the last elections, let's not let it be said that we got screwed again once we knew it could happen.

I would imagine that if enough of us DEMAND paper ballots, paper ballots will become the system.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. Exposure is the name of the game with BBV. The more Americans know
the healthier our government becomes.

Transparency should be the goal in all democratic governing.

Yes, it is always a real possibility as long as we have electronic voting machines that are owned by private companies and do not provide a separate paper ballot and mandatory intermittent auditing during the voting process.

You bet its a reality. It could easily be qualified a probability wherevever electronic voting is taking place, because there are simply no checks and balances. For more good information about it, take a look at Blackboxvoting.org, and I strongly recommend you to pass some information on to your friends and family. There was a New York Times article that was posted yesterday called Fixing Democracy that would be a great article to send friends.


Heres to a fair and accurate voting system!!!
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. BBV could help Bush in several ways
-- BBV activists could call for a boycott of the election to protest the issue. Actually I've already heard comments here at DU along those lines.

-- BBV issue could cause people not to be confident their vote will count, thus decreasing voter turnout.

-- dem candidate does not do enough on the issue, causing activists to spew invective on him, suggesting he's in cahoots with Bush, or charging him with "having no spine" or whatever, causing division within the dems

-- BBV could prevent some districts from improving their voting systems, thus causing them to use their old ones which have been proven to disenfranchise thousands of people. The NM sec. of state who asked a question at the MSNBC brought this up, she said that Bush was delaying HAVA by not funding it.

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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Nice exercise in 'pretzel logic'......
.....it's so twisted! :wow: :evilgrin:
Yeah Cocoa, blame the people who are trying to expose and correct the problems with the system for being the problem with the system. :crazy:

Nice try though! :)
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. better than a bunch of emoticons, and sarcasm
:shrug:



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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Lets take your arguments one at a time shall we?
-- BBV activists could call for a boycott of the election to protest the issue. Actually I've already heard comments here at DU along those lines.

Please post a single link to where any "BBV activist" has ever advocated for a "boycott of the election". You can't because that is NOT what BBV activists are about! Any comments along those lines are not from anyone who fully understands the issue and has been fighting for fair and honest elections. Not voting is not an option for anyone trying to ensure that 'every vote count as intended'. Many of us are actively working on voter registration drives and car pools to get as many people to the polls as possible. Check out just about any voting activism site and I'm sure you'll find help on how to start your own registration drive in your area. It's an insult to all of us who have been working so hard to get people to the polls and ensure that their votes will count to suggest otherwise.

-- BBV issue could cause people not to be confident their vote will count, thus decreasing voter turnout.

The BBV issue should cause people to lose confidence in the current system as there is no confidence that the votes will be counted as cast and no way to go back and check the votes afterward by eye. That is why we are working daily to get the legislation in place to change the system. We are actively working to raise the confidence level so more people will feel their vote counts! Again a bogus argument and an insult to try to twist what we are all about.

-- dem candidate does not do enough on the issue, causing activists to spew invective on him, suggesting he's in cahoots with Bush, or charging him with "having no spine" or whatever, causing division within the dems

Once again would you please back up your assertion with a factual link to where anyone from BBV, Verified Voting or any other voting activist site is actively causing divisions within the Democratic Party. Asking ones elected or potential future representatives to go on record with their opinion on a subject of this importance is part of the process of selecting who you want to represent you. It's your right to choose a representative who feels the system as it stands is just fine. It's my right to question why they don't understand the enormity of the problem. I'm too busy to venture into the GD Primary 2004 forum but I'm just sure it's chock full of threads dividing the party over the issue of fair elections.

-- BBV could prevent some districts from improving their voting systems, thus causing them to use their old ones which have been proven to disenfranchise thousands of people. The NM sec. of state who asked a question at the MSNBC brought this up, she said that Bush was delaying HAVA by not funding it.

This is the funniest one of them all. The BBV issue is, and has always been, about improving the voting systems for all Americans. Trading one system that disenfranchises voters for a different system that disenfranchises voters is not an improvement regardless of how much fancier and faster it is! For you to suggest otherwise is just a joke and another insult to those of us who have worked tirelessly to get the message out to the public. As far as Bush* underfunding HAVA is concerned, what does that have to do with the BBV push for a Voter Verified Paper Ballot? Paper Ballots can and have been used for years without computers. When honest people from all parties are involved in counting the votes, the vote count is honest. When dishonest people get involved in vote counting, fraud occurs. No machine or law designed to force machines into use by a given date, will change that fact.

*No emoticons were used in the making of this post.*


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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I hope you're right
all those thing I listed are honest concerns I have about the BBV issue.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Ok I'll cop to the charges.
I forced Diebold to put security flaws in their machines. I was the one that Gave convicted felon Jeffery Dean the Keys to the King County Election computer. I was the one responsible for John Elder collecting the absentee votes.
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. You orchestrated the takeover of the Election Center......
.....by R. Doug Lewis and helped him found the NASS and NASED! :evilgrin:

I suspect you also wrote his testimony for his appearances before those groups and Congress!

Damn politicians! they're all alike! ;-)
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Punch Cards Did Not Discriminate
Here ya go Cocoa:

http://www.rules.senate.gov/hearings/2001/031401knack.htm

Following the last Presidential election, a widespread perception emerged that punch card voting equipment was more prevalent in counties heavily populated by minorities and poorer persons. Our study contradicts this belief. We combined county-level demographic data for the mid-1990s with information from Election Data Services on voting equipment used by the counties in the 1998 election. Our results showed there is little support for the view that resource constraints cause poorer counties with large minority populations to retain antiquated or inferior voting equipment.

....snip....

. Nationally, racial differences in punch card use are negligible: 31.9% of whites and 31.4% of African Americans lived in counties using this voting technology. Controlling for county size and other variables, counties with larger percentages of African Americans actually have a significantly lower probability of using punch cards.

2. African Americans are more likely than whites to live in counties using electronic voting or lever machines, the two types of equipment in which "overvoting" is impossible if the equipment is programmed correctly.

3. Hispanics are more likely to live in punch card counties than blacks or whites, but this disparity is attributable entirely to the use of punch card voting in Los Angeles County. In most states, whites are actually more likely than Hispanics to live in punch card counties.

4. Based on presidential voting patterns in 1996, Democratic and Republican voters were equally likely to live in punch card counties, for the U.S. overall.

5. Because we elect Presidents by the electoral vote and not the popular vote, it's also relevant to make these comparisons on a state-by-state basis. It turns out that in the majority of states where some counties use punch cards and others do not, whites, the non-poor and Republican voters who are more likely to reside in punch card counties than African Americans, the poor and Democratic voters. Unfortunately for Vice-President Gore, Florida happened to be one of the exceptions to this pattern.

6. Public resources don't seem to matter much. Counties with punch card systems actually tend to have higher incomes, higher tax revenues, and larger populations than do counties with more modern voting equipment. In counties using electronic voting systems--the most expensive type--per capita incomes and property tax revenues are actually lower than in counties using punch card or any other voting technology. Florida is actually one of the best examples of these patterns: the largest and richest counties tend to use punch-card equipment. The Washington Post's claim of November 11 that it is "mainly affluent counties that have switched" to newer technology turns out to be dead wrong.

....snip....

A recent Cal Tech/MIT study has exposed as false another popular belief. It found that the electronic systems often promoted as the high-tech solution to chad problems actually generate the same rate of invalid presidential votes as Votomatic-style punch card equipment.

Evidence from studies such as these has obvious implications for some of the proposed solutions to problems associated with punch card voting. Our study shows that providing financial assistance to replace punch card technology would not be subsidizing the poorest counties--in most states, including Florida, it would subsidize the richer counties. And replacing punch card technology with expensive electronic systems might not reduce the number of invalidated presidential votes. In fact, it would probably increase it in the short run, because we don't understand yet why electronic systems generate a high rate of invalid votes, so we don't know what to do about it. On the other hand, just about everybody has become well informed about exactly what can go wrong with punch card technology. Next time around, anyone still using punch cards will probably take extra care to insert the card into the slot correctly, punch their selections forcefully, and tear off any hanging chad before turning in the ballot. Poll workers likely will check the vote recorders periodically for chad build up. The error rate for punch card voting will probably fall far below the rates prevailing in recent years for punch cards and electronic systems.

---end----


Now, you tell us, why Congress ignored this. Too much mulah from the vendors and defense industry contractors, perhaps?
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. thanks for the info
I actually didn't say anything about discrimination. But I have heard charges about the punch cards having a disproportionate failure rate in minority areas, so it's good to know that this is disputed.

Now I have to ask, who is the person giving this testimony, and why are you presenting him as the final authority on this?

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. A precident was set in 2000.
By not extending Clinton's Presidency until the disputed vote issue was settled and we knew for sure who was the elected President, a precident was set that shouldn't allow this to happen, I hope.
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DrBB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
8. I posted the exact same point
...a day or two ago on another thread.

It's an old dictator's trick: the opposition starts discovering your plans for rigging the election? Easily handled: you express shock and dismay, and declare that the election must be cancelled or delayed because corruption/vote rigging/whatever has been discovered!

I know this exact scenario played out in a number of post-colonial dictatorships during the cold war, South American and African. I can't cite chapter and verse, but it's a venerable tactic.

I actually don't think the Chimp will resort to it--they've gotten everything they want by gaming the system as it is. But it was a dark thought that crossed my mind, too, when I saw that editorial in the NYTimes.

Pessimistic minds think alike, I guess...?
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-19-04 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
14. "Could BBV scandal actually keep Bush in office?" No......
.....Failing to inform the public and address the issue might keep him in office though. :)
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