What to do with kids like these?

[theHandpuppet]

Honestly, I don't know what the answer is, but counseling and continuing probations aren't working for these brothers. I don't support jail time for minors, but what do you do with kids like these?? Where are we failing as a society when we (apparently) have no effective way of both helping these very troubled and dangerous youngsters while still protecting society?

From today's Halifax (Nova Scotia) Herald:
http://www.herald.ns.ca/stories/2004/01/21/fMetro209.raw.html

Cat hanger gets
9 months probation

Fetal alcohol syndrome suspected in case of troubled 15-year-old

By Sherri Borden / Court Reporter

A 15-year-old Cole Harbour boy who shows signs of fetal alcohol syndrome was sentenced Tuesday to nine months' probation and ordered to perform 30 hours of community service for hanging a cat from a tree and a weapons conviction.

(snipping)
That incident occurred nine days before the boy, then 14, and his 16-year-old brother tortured the cat in Cole Harbour on July 9.

The two boys dragged the cat into the woods with a cord around its neck and each took a turn hanging the clawing, gagging animal from a tree for about 20 seconds.

(snipping)
On June 30, just before 4:30 p.m., the boy pulled a knife on a Cole Harbour man who'd been having problems with the boy and two other boys in the neighbourhood over loud music and inappropriate behaviour, court heard Tuesday.

(snipping)
On Dec. 19, the 16-year-old was handed a year's probation for torturing the cat. He was convicted in October of wilfully causing suffering to an animal and violating a court order.

That case was widely publicized because the 16-year-old was on probation for derailing a passenger train in Stewiacke in April 2001.

Twenty-three people on the train were injured; five have permanent disabilities.

More....

[Exultant Democracy]

1. WTF, he derailed a passenger train?

[theHandpuppet]

4. Yes...

The 16 year old brother, who also participated in the animal torture case, had been on probation for derailing a passenger train.

The quesion is, what do you do with a pair of kids like these? The fact that they may have been born with FAS is certainly deserving of special consideration, but it doesn't appear that counseling is having any effect on curbing their vicious behavior. How long will it be before someone dies at the hands of these violent boys?

And for every child like these two there are thousands more out there with similar problems. Where are we failing as a society when we are at a loss to address the problem, much less provide adequate solutions? Do we need more money for our social service organizations? Youth programs? What is the answer?

Of course, such social service programs in N.S. are suffering the same problem as those here in the U.S. -- they have been slashed to pay for politically popular tax cuts.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

2. 1956 i witnessed 2 children do the exact same thing to a cat ...i was

6 years old and walking to the park to play, when i saw 2 kids (9 or 10 years old) carry a cat into the woods...i thought nothing of it until i heard the cat screaming in pain...and as i reach the far end of the wooded area they emerged with a rope tied around the dead cats neck and hooked it onto a car bumper (which had stopped at the stop sign)....i chased that fucking car for 2 blocks screaming for the driver to stop and when i finally caught up to the car the driver simply got out and released the rope from his bumper and drove away....the cat had had its eyes gaughed out and its ears cut off i vomited and cried unceasingly for days ...my sibblings and i went back and buried the poor cat....i was devastated!....it was an ugly awakening for my young soul...to know that there were children walking the same neighborhood with me capable of such darkness...i was never the same after that horrid experience....my point is that people never change....we have not evolved....only technology changes (advances) man does NOT!.... sadly man has remained the same as in cavemen times... :( IMHO

[ElsewheresDaughter]

12. timed out...those 2 kids may have grown up to be ted bundy and casey

[KansDem]

17. ...or even President of the United States!

«One of the local rituals for children,» reported Nicholas D. Kristof of Life in Midland, Texas, when George W. was a boy, «were meetings with cookies and milk at the home of a nice old lady who represented the SPCA. The cookies were digested more thoroughly than the teachings.»

«`We were terrible to animals,' recalled Throckmorton, laughing. A dip behind the Bush borne turned into a small lake after a good rain, and thousands of frogs would come out. `Everybody would get BB guns and shoot them,' Throckmorton said. `Or we'd put firecrackers in the frogs and throw them and blow them up.'»

Kristof made plain that «we» explicitly included George W. Bush, and that George W., the Safari Club International «Governor of the Year» in 1999 for his support of trophy hunting, was the leader among the boys who did it.
http://www.all-creatures.org/aip/nl-3nov2000-frogs.html

[Loonman]

3. Lobotomy?

Either that or lock them up for life.

[theHandpuppet]

5. These are kids...

... and kids born with disabilities (FAS). There have to be alternatives to "locking them up for life" -- i just don't know what the solution might be.

[Loonman]

7. Something needs to be done

Extreme animal cruelty usually translates into horrific crimes against people in the future.

It shows a lack of empathy or remorse.

Either remove them from society, or they will most likey be perping brutal rapes and murders later in life.

[Pithlet]

20. Yes, that is a definite warning sign.

If I ever saw either of my kids purposefully torture or kill an animal, I would seek help immediately. The train derailment goes beyond a warning signal.

My mom's cousin like to torture small animals (wild, not domesticated, like cats) when he was a kid, but thankfully turned out not to be a serial killer. He just gets his fix as an adult by hunting.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

19. I'll assume Loon means a mental institution, not prison.

In which case I'd agree. They need treatment.

[FunBobbyMucha]

6. Pile on if you will but he can't be helped.

I've worked with adolescents and children in a psychiatric setting for 16 years, and past a certain point, kids are, for lack of a more PC word, unsalvagable. A lot of behavioral research now says that a child who doesn't form normal and nurturing attachments within the first three years of life is fatally damaging where trusting and empathy are concerned. And that's without a biological handicap like FAS.

Not being a total fatalist, there probably is an answer for some individuals like this, but it would be more labor-intensive, expensive, and require such a large team of people shadowing the kid thru every aspect of his life (MST to the tenth power) that costs, manpower, etc would never allow it.

[TreasonousBastard]

13. An unfortunate fact that we refuse to recognize.

We have no mechanism for identifying or dealing with these kids at an early age, and only recognize them later when we call them monsters.

If they're bad enough soon enough, we'll try them as adults and execute them. Or, we'll just consider them career criminals and dump them on the prosecutors and wardens to deal with.

Or, maybe they won't be that bad, and we'll just blame the schools for why they don't learn.

This is a fundamental failure in our society that we simply deny. There are no easy answers, if there are answers at all, so everyone is afraid to ask the questions.

[dusty64]

8. I really don't have

a problem with locking these very dangerous and violent people up. 9 months probabtion is outrageous, in the 80's I got three years on a PINS warrant and had hurt no one.

[theHandpuppet]

10. Not in an adult jail...

... but I would agree that perhaps these young men do need to be confined before they do even more harm. That doesn't really address any long-term solutions, however, and when society starts locking up its kids as a pre-emptive solution for the potential threats they may pose in the future then we as a society are heading down a mighty slippery slope.

[Muddleoftheroad]

9. Future serial killers

By their actions early in life, abusing animals and derailing a train, they are lining up to be among the more dangerous psychopaths our society produces.

We should lock them up until such time as it is safe to unlock them.

[noonwitch]

11. Lock up the older kid for a long time

But work hard to salvage the younger kid's life. If he has FAS, he does not have the reasoning capability that the older kid has, and the whole thing was probably the older one's idea. He might respond to treatment, if he is treated at the right place by the right people. As he has been raised by an alcoholic mother, he has probably never known any kind of consistency. If he gets that in a positive way, he can still be helped. Sometimes, there are meds that help, too, if the kid has a diagnosed mental health issue.

[theHandpuppet]

15. You raise another question...

... which is what to do with the PARENTS of these kids? What responsibility should they share in this unfolding tragedy? These boys have been left not only with permanent disabilities thanks to their parents, but are obviously not receiving the kind of home life/treatment they need in order to turn their lives around. Certainly if we are to punish the kids we must also take a hard look at where this problem began -- with their parents.

[Exultant Democracy]

14. The good news is that another kid saved the cat,

He even gave it mouth to mouth in order to save it. That kid has a bright future, it is sad that heros are so often spawned by villans.

[mdmc]

16. I saw a kid kill a cat because another student's dad was gay

The cat killer is a police officer in NYC. Eventually karma will end his corrupt ass in jail.

[SheilaT]

18. It may well be too late

for these kids. They start from day one absorbing attitudes and observing the behaviors of the adults around them. So where are the parents in all this is a valid question.