Students disciplined for posters on King Day (African not African enough)

[Buffler]

Students disciplined for posters on King Day

A small group of Westside High School students plastered the school Monday with posters advocating that a white student from South Africa receive the "Distinguished African American Student Award" next year.

The students' actions on Martin Luther King Jr. Day upset several students and have led administrators to discipline four students.

The posters, placed on about 150 doors and lockers, included a picture of the junior student smiling and giving a thumbs up. The posters encouraged votes for him.

The posters were removed by administrators because they were "inappropriate and insensitive," Westside spokeswoman Peggy Rupprecht said Tuesday.

Full Story:
http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_np=0&u_pg=1640&u_sid=981030

I guess actually being from Africa doesn't qualify one as an African-American

[judge_smales]

1. Interesting.

That student is being discriminated aginst because of his color. That's racism. Dr. King is spinning in his grave.

[patmacsf]

2. Poorly written story

I think the real issue was the act of plastering the flyers all over the school which was a violation of the school's rules. To claim this is P.C. gone amok is a reach.

[xchrom]

3. you present an interesting point of view

that some how white folks from where ever don't have enough rewards.
the posters were inappropriate.

[Ripley]

5. So no more white people should be considered for

Distinguished Students now? Afterall, I guess they're all racists.

Lovely.

[judge_smales]

6. Isn't equality about the idea that

who gets the reward is decided on criteria other than what color a person is? To suggest that that only cuts one way is indefensable IMHO.

Lets revisit the Dream, shall we: "that a man be judged by the content of his charecter, not the color of his skin".

[liberalhistorian]

19. Exactly.

I think King himself would have disapproved of the posters being taken down and called "inappropriate and insensitive." He would likely have hailed them as exactly the kind of color-blindness goal he was working so hard to achieve. He always recognized the contributions of whites to his organization and to the struggle for civil rights.

[Mormegil42]

51. I believe this too

Rev. King wanted a color blind society, in my opinion. Meritocracy was the point of what talked about and what he sermonized too. Achieving goals as equals was the message I got from his philosophy and I have lived by it.

[philosophie_en_rose]

78. "Color blindness" is not King's dream.

It's not enough to be blind to cultural differences, when the effects of imbalance are still acute. If you honestly believe that there is no such thing as racism and that racism has no current effects, then I can see how "color blindness" could be valid.

But it's not. It's not equal opportunity to oppress people for centuries and then suddenly call it good when the oppressive laws are abolished. Eradicating Jim Crow and slavery was important, but it's just a first step in a long struggle to treat the injuries of the past.

I don't think that Dr. King would have supported those children that plastered the school with posters. Think about it. Was their intention really to celebrate the achievements of an African American? Or was it to make a mockery of the civil rights movement?

[Homer12]

4. It's probably a story on RW hate Radio right now

Sounds like one they would use, to trash liberals, and not have to talk about Bushco misdeeds.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

7. Homer12 don't you know it!....this RW pig trough material

[judge_smales]

8. You must mean

Limbaugh. Sounds right up his alley.

[pnb]

9. Well, the award is supposed to be for an African American

And this kid does qualify for that. If they wanted the award to be for blacks only, the award should read "Distinguished Black Student Award"

[Dhalgren]

26. "African American" does not refer to a person who was born

in Africa and later moved to the US. "African American" is used to refer to Americans of African descent. And it would be hard to give an award to a white ex-patriot from South Africa that was traditionally intented for an American black student. This just boggles the mind. The white student from Johannesburg is not eligable for the award.

[slksln]

60. If you want to get technical about it...

it is scientifically the most correct theory that every human alive today descended from an African woman. So to be fair, those that we consider "of African descent" are of purer blood than any other ethnicity in the world. There's a lot of psychology behind racism and a lot of learned behavior meshing with innate behavior. Its a very interesting area to study, actually.

~Selen

[iverglas]

65. duh, eh?

"African American" does not refer to a person who was born
in Africa and later moved to the US.

Kinda the way Siamese cat doesn't refer to a cat born in Siam? These folks will be trying to enter alley cats from Bangkok in cat shows, next thing you know.

Or natives of Montreal will be applying for French passports when someone calls them French-Canadian ... or someone will be wondering why a sitting room doesn't sit and a knitting needle doesn't knit ...

Somebody needs to investigate the concept of noun phrase, and how it is often just a little more than the sum of its parts.

And then maybe look up "disingenuous" while they've got the dictionary open.

.

[Pithlet]

70. I know we've disagreed in the past

and I'm sorry I was a bit nasty then.

But, you are rapidly becoming one of my favorite posters here at DU.

:yourock:

[iverglas]

71. aw ;)

Everybody loves a Grammarian.

;)

.

[Pithlet]

72. I am so "Issues"

I love that site.

[shanti]

81. i love it!!!

first time at the grammarian site, and i'm definitely passing this one on! you're batting a thousand today!

thanks, friend :hi:

[Yupster]

73. Then people will start

parking in the middle of parkways and then where will we be?

[iverglas]

75. trying

to drive in their driveways?

Groan. I almost forgot what the answer was.

.

[Breezy du Nord]

79. I think it was just sort of a joke

I mean, that's kind of how it seemed to me. I probably could think of dozens kids in my HS that would love to drive their teachers crazy by sort of getting off on a technicality like that, because if you take it literally, the boy is an African-American, just not in the sense we think of it. I think this has less to do with racism and more with the kids just wanting to piss off their teachers. I doubt they expected it would be such a touchy issue.

[shanti]

29. quit splitting hairs

you AND they knew what it was all about.

[iverglas]

67. d-i-s-i-n-g-e-n-u-o-u-s

Oxford Concise says:

having secret motives
dishonest
insincere

I think that's about all anybody needs to say about this.

.

[shanti]

77. thanks!

exactly the word for this!

[Tomee450]

30. In this country

the term African American usually means a black person, not a white from Africa. This white African has never experienced the racial discrimination of an African American who is black. Someone was just trying to be cute and it backfired.

[Wonco_the_Sane]

10. Omaha H.S. has "Distinguished African-American Award"???

Well isn't that special.
I didn't read anything in the article about "being from Africa doesn't qualify one as African-American". For that matter I didn't see anything in the article claiming the kid from South Africa was "distinguished". Sounds like a lot of flap over nothing.

Man, when are Caucasian-South-African-African-Americans going to get their due in this country??? SHEEESH LOL

[Virginian]

11. Confusing the people with the politics

In this country, the term African American is a euphemism for those who resemble the more common physical traits of Africans, IE. Blacks. (It is odd, sometimes, how euphemistically it is used. In the Simpson trials, the cabdriver stated he saw an African American walking in the vicinity. How did he know that person's citizenship?)

The spirit of the celebration does not include white Africans, but neither should it include recent immigrants from Africa (or the Caribbean islands) who are black. The spirit of the celebration is for those who have been involved in the struggle for equal citizenship in our great nation. The day is to honor a great leader in that struggle who, I believe, has benefited Americans of all races.

Give the kid a break. He and his supporters have taken a euphemism literally. And remember to keep an open mind, don't discriminate against him because of his country of origin.
There seems to be a tendency to think of Caucasians from Africa as racist because of the former South African government policy on apartheid.
This is not necessarily true.
Just as I would hate to be considered a war monger because of my government embracing the Bush Doctrine of Preemptive War, I am sure others have not always supported the policies of their nations.

[Lars39]

14. Very good point !

[Virginian]

12. Accidental duplicate post

computer said page not found after post. Returned and hit post button again.

[Lars39]

13. Mom's comments aside....

and to reeeeeaalllllly play devil's advocate here: what if the kid was just as racist as could be and thought up this nose-thumbing plan to rankle what few blacks there were in the school? The possibility exists. Maybe I've read one too many comments from that *lovely* Stormfront site. :shrug:

[Virginian]

17. That would be cruel.

If he were a racist.

[lapislzi]

15. What does it mean to be "African American?"

I ask this not out of disingenuousness, but real curiosity. My daughter was born in South Africa--her father is an Afrikaner. If she's not African-American, then what is she?

Not that I am a subscriber to hyphenation dogma, because I think it opens itself up to RIA (reductio ad absurdum)...which is precisely where this issue is going, imo.

Is it a skin color thing, or isn't it?

[Yupster]

16. I heard a similar story

a long time ago, and I don't remember it, but the gist of it was that some guy's family was mad at a newspaper for an obituary where they said the guy was the first African-American to ever do something or other in the community, and the family said he was Dominican or something, and he wasn't African or American but the newspaper said that according to their standards he was an African-American. One of those stories you hear, say hmmm and move on.It may have been when I was a newspaper reporter, but that was over 20 years ago, so not sure.

[Terran]

18. DUer naivete about race amazes me sometimes

There are several people in this thread who are basically siding with the logic behind this little stunt. Despite the fact that it is clear that this award is meant for students of non-European African ancestry (in recognition of that group's struggles in this country and their influence on its culture), some of you are naively wondering why the posters were so offensive, why this kid of white South African origin doesn't qualify for the award.

Well, what it really comes down to is this: this 'little stunt' is a reflection of a deep-seated cultural issue in America, which is that white people as a group can't stand it when Black people do or create something for themselves. We wring our hands about how Black youth have no good role models, and then when a school recognizes a Black kid for being a good role model, for being successful, we wring our hands again and whine that it's "discriminatory" against white kids. By doing so, we buy into the invalid logic behind the act.

It's true that this whole incident is akin to nothing more than a joke. I'm sure no one involved seriously thought that a white South African kid was going to get an award for being an outstanding "African American" student. But jokes are reflective of broader attitudes. This incident reflects the deeper fact that many, many whites are basically resentful of any thing or action that attempts to recognize the uniqueness of Black African-American experience and culture. It's the attitude that says both, "Why can't they act more like us?" and "We won't accept them as one of us." It's the same notion behind the hatred of African-American History Month. "Why should they have their own month? Why isn't there a White History Month?" Why? Because every month is White History Month, that's why.

Dirk

[prolesunited]

20. Aaah

a voice of reason on this thread at last. Thank you. I was beginning to wonder where I was for a minute.

Yes, it really would be ideal if we were a truly color blind society, but we're not. How many stats and studies do we need to see to understand that racism is alive and well? Just pretending we've solved the problem will NOT make it go away.

[no one in particular]

21. What?

'Well, what it really comes down to is this: this 'little stunt' is a reflection of a deep-seated cultural issue in America, which is that white people as a group can't stand it when Black people do or create something for themselves.'

The award was created by the school. The school should not be in the business of creating awards based on any race, religion, or any factor other than achievement.

I have no problem with the History Month concept. It does tell a side to our history, that for too long, has been left out.

[mopinko]

24. this crummy article doesn't tell us

what the award was based on. an award "based on race"- that would be like, for the most beautiful black skin? or the longest dreadlock, or what? no, i don't think that was it.

[Terran]

27. reply

I don't imagine that the school is "in the business" of creating awards based on race or religion. All it did is a create a miniscule version of what most big universities in this country do: give special recognition to certain students as a form of affirmative action. Which is obviously not something you support. If the school made some special recognition of a kid who was physically disabled, would you have the exact same objection?

The attitude you display is exactly what I'm talking about, frankly. So many people hide behind their alleged desire to create a colorblind society, and use that as an excuse to undermine attempts to actually reach that goal. The school should be in the business of encouraging and honoring students its in any way it sees fit. Doing it this way doesn't hurt anyone, and it ultimately has a benefit for the kid involved, for the school, and for the community.

Bigotry and inequality are not problems that you can address passively. They will never go away by themselves, like a recession, because of market forces. Affirmative action, in the widest sense of that phrase, is required to defeat bigotry.

[Terwilliger]

37. Thank you, Mr. Connerly

But if you don't separate the notion of distinctive blacks, you'll never get mainstream whites to recognize:

1) thta blacks folks are just as equal as anyone else is

and

2) that blacks have been horribly wronged by British and American economic imperialism

[Virginian]

22. The names of Blacks are not always listed in history.

Sometimes it is hard to find the names of Black heros or victims.

In Richmond, there once was a railroad tunnel under one of the seven hills. The newspapers of the day reported the collapse and listed the names of all the white lives lost. The names attached to the black lives were not reported. It is not clear that the count of black lives lost is even accurate. The ends of the tunnel were sealed without recovering the bodies.

Today, we would list all the names of these victims as heroes.

[pnb]

25. I think you assume to much

Regarding your reasoning behind what happened. What about the definite possibility that this kid, who is an African-American, doesn't like the idea that he can't be considered that because the phrase was hijacked for PC reasons? As I said in my earlier post, why not call the award "the Black..." instead of "African-American..."?

Regarding the invalid logic you mention, why assume that blacks have to have other blacks as role models? I am white and have and still look up to blacks as role models. That is the invalid logic.

That said, it also invalidates what you say about the reflections of broader attitudes in this case. The only culture that was invalidated in this case was that of the African-American, who effectively is no longer considered such by society.

[Terran]

31. reply

Pnb, you're one of the people I was referring to in my original post. You could not appear to be more deliberately obtuse on these issues. Possibly you come from a country other than the US, where the issue of race is not an issue at all.

What about the definite possibility that this kid, who is an African-American, doesn't like the idea that he can't be considered that because the phrase was hijacked for PC reasons? As I said in my earlier post, why not call the award "the Black..." instead of "African-American..."?

The kid who was depicted in the poster is not, in any rational or accepted sense, an "African-American", because of the meaning of that term in this country. This is what I mean by "deliberately obtuse" (a trait shared by most conservatives, I'm afraid). You cannot base any intelligent argument on calling this white South African kid an "African-American," because that term refers exclusively to an American-born citizen of Black African ancestry. Calling him an "African-American" is the sheerest sort of technicality of convenience. This kid has nothing in common with the African-American students who grew up in Nebraska and attend the same school.

As to the kid's actual motives, one can only guess. He may have been angered because, in your words, the phrase "African-American" was "hijacked for PC reasons". But, of course, both you and he would be totally incorrect. Nobody ever "hijacked" that phrase because it came into use solely to describe American Black people. Period. End of story. You may say that "gay" was hijacked and you might be right, but not "African-American". And of course, your use of the word "hijacked" says a lot about you.

Why not use the word "Black"? You call it "PC", I call it respect and civility.

Regarding the invalid logic you mention, why assume that blacks have to have other blacks as role models? I am white and have and still look up to blacks as role models. That is the invalid logic.

The "invalid logic" I was referring to is the logic behind the stunt with the posters, and the invalidity of calling a white South African an African- American; I'm not sure what that has to do with role models. Where did I say that Black people "have to have other blacks as role models"?

That said, it also invalidates what you say about the reflections of broader attitudes in this case. The only culture that was invalidated in this case was that of the African-American, who effectively is no longer considered such by society.

Um, ya got me there. I have no clue what you're talking about. Somebody's culture got invalidated? Who is no longer considered an African-American, by what society?

[Pithlet]

28. I agree

It looks to me like they were trying to use a technicality to prove some point. Never mind the experiences of a white African are bound to be much different than a black one, just as they are in this country. They were violating the spirit of the award.

[justjones]

34. Thank you.

Thank you, Dirk, for breaking it down. To me, you either get it why this little "joke" is not funny or you don't. Apparently, even folks who claim to be progressive just don't. How you had the patience to write this is beyond me.

[Terran]

52. Your welcome, justjones

You sort of hit the nail on the head there with your last question. Explaining this sort of thing to conservatives is one thing, but it pisses me off to see "progressives" not understanding these concepts. I have learned over time that race is often a taboo topic, even for otherwise well-meaning people. Some people have honestly never had to confront this, while others are just deluding themselves.

Welcome to DU, by the way.

Dirk

[philosophie_en_rose]

74. Thank you!

Well, what it really comes down to is this: this 'little stunt' is a reflection of a deep-seated cultural issue in America, which is that white people as a group can't stand it when Black people do or create something for themselves. We wring our hands about how Black youth have no good role models, and then when a school recognizes a Black kid for being a good role model, for being successful, we wring our hands again and whine that it's "discriminatory" against white kids. By doing so, we buy into the invalid logic behind the act.

I can't believe that people are supporting the misguided (to say the least) effort of insensitive children. The nomination of a white South African is simply ridiculous in the context of the award. White South Africans are not native Africans. It would be like nominating Strom Thurmond for "Native American of the year." Technically, he was born in the US. He's a "native," according to the dictionary. However, he is not a Native American. The freepish arguments appear clever, but are deeply racist and disrespectful.

The response to my objections are already posted. "Ohh.. You're making race an issue because you recognize minorities. You're discriminating against white people." Feh.

As other people in the thread have pointed out, it's not about "reverse discrimination." It's not about whether or not there are differences in cultures. It's about political power. It's about history. It's about justice and addressing the effects of oppression by creating positive role models and opportunities. If scales are unbalanced, it does not make things equal to put an equal weight on both sides. If a culture is suppressed, ignored, and degraded, it is not racist to remove barriers, pay attention, and give respect. And how in the hell is it racist to white kids to recognize a student that's a minority?

Again, the rebuttals are always the same... "Well, there are not white kid award!" Actually, no. There are already white kid awards. There is affirmative action for George W. Bush, as much as there is affirmative action for any child of color. It's only that white superiority action is a tradition.

For the freepishly minded, please look at Auntie Pinko's excellent article on affirmative action - http://www.democraticunderground.com/auntie/03/114.html

For white people, the 'unfairness' of affirmative action, or minority preferences, or highly publicized discrimination suits, is only worthy of attention when it is brought to their attention, or when it affects them personally. The overwhelmingly vast majority of their time, they are free to forget about the skin color, religious practice, language, and the various physical qualities they share with rest of the group that controls the largest share of America's wealth assets, political power, social influence, media attention, etc. Because they personally may not feel wealthy or privileged, they do not perceive the privilege they enjoy simply by not having to be 'different.'

Comparatively few Americans who are obviously Caucasian, apparently Christian, fully able-bodied, fluent English speakers, ever feel an automatic need to worry about whether they are being lied to by the real estate agent, banker, or personnel officer about why their offer to purchase was rejected, their loan denied, or they didn't 'make the cut' for a second interview. Even with laws that add some disincentive for such exclusions and lies, they still occur all too often in the lives of most people of color, minority religion, physical disability, etc.

For every individual of minority status who benefits from affirmative action, there are thousands who are trapped in neglected, powerless neighborhoods unheard by City Hall, poorly educated in schools that must struggle for the most basic resources, routed into dead-end, low-wage jobs, targeted by 'special task forces' of law enforcement agencies, represented in the court system by overworked or incompetent attorneys. There are millions presumed guilty, presumed poor, presumed ignorant, presumed less competent, identified by their physical characteristics rather than their achievements, aspirations, or skills.

[alfredo]

83. If the African Americans were in on the joke, then it is OK.

If they weren't then yeah the guy was being a jerk.

[mopinko]

23. wow, lot of folks here ready to fall into the right wing dance

this was a really poorly written article on a lot of points.
i have never liked the "tag" of african american on a lot of points, all of which come into play here. so let's just pretend it was not used here- let's pretend that nobody involved tried to be polite, respectful, and decent, and just used the word black all along.
then the intent of the recognition would be clear- to honor the accomplishments of someone who is one of 70 students out of 1,843, if not looked down on, at least obviously different every day of the year. a student with 300 years of history on their shoulders every day.
and the intent of the other student would also be clear, wouldn't it?

it is very unfortunate that the article also does not mention what the actual criteria for the prize was. i doubt it was for having the blackest skin. or for having the closest roots to the "old country"

so, let's just realize that we are missing a lot of this story. it is not hard for me to fill in the blanks, and see what kind of cruelty and prejudice COULD have been behind this display. and considering the history of race in this country, i would need a WHOLE LOT more information to believe that it wasn't.

[TexasMexican]

32. Do you want to know more.

http://www.genmay.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=280222

Here is a thread started by one of the students at one of the other forums that I visit.

He posted this a few days ago, its gotten pretty long and there is tons of flaming and such.

[DrWeird]

33. Why do you visit that forum?

Tis filled with idiot racists.

[TexasMexican]

36. moderately entertaining

I mostly ignore the racists since there is no point arguing with them but there is some entertaining things there.

[Terwilliger]

35. No it doesn't

Whites in South Africa are not from South Africa...they came from Scandinavia

[bobbieinok]

38. ??????????

I thought they came from England and Holland.

Afrikans is a Dutch language.

[Terwilliger]

39. Scandinavia is not Holland?

I think they were from Holland more than England. The company was the Dutch East India company.

[Heddi]

44. No, Scandanavia isn't holland

Holland is The Netherlands---actually, a region of The Netherlands, but a common word used to denote The Netherlands.

Scandanavia is Denmark, Sweden, Finland, and Norway

[Terwilliger]

45. ok...still it was close

and my point was their nothern European origins

[John BigBootay]

40. We're ALL "Africans"-- duh...

I think this whole race business is depressing. Let's try to rise above it as Dr. King hoped for-- and died for.

No more special categories for anyone. Let's just move on-- get it?

[Terwilliger]

41. Thank you, Mr. Republican

Why don't you go mobilize for tax cuts for the rich, huh?

[John BigBootay]

42. Oh-- we're NOT all Africans?

I think the genetic and palentological evidence would disagree with you.

[Pithlet]

43. I can't believe I'm responding, but, here goes.

Countering the racism that exists in American society is not racist. Acknowledging that people ARE judged for the color of their skin is in not racist. Pointing to programs intended to advance minorities and calling THEM racist because they're using race as a factor, is racist.

[John BigBootay]

47. That's cool, but let's be real about this thing--

we have to be very careful about how affirmative action, preferences and categories are applied, because they are a defacto admission that there are "differences" between certain groups (I choose not to call them races because I believe we all belong to one single species known as Homo Sapiens).

I admit that I look at this issue on a much broader level than most people-- this is how I think about many issues. I think it is more important to teach and preach equality within the species on a verbal scale and a practical scale-- that this will in the long run create a general atmosphere of non-discrimination faster and with less resistance than by any other means.

[Pithlet]

49. It is not an admission that there are differences

It is an admission that many think that there are differences, and act on those thoughts. As a result measures have to be taken to counter the injustices and oppression caused by those that think that way.

It is important to teach equality, but at the present time it isn't enough just to do that. You're right, race is indeed a man made concept that, when used to discriminate, harms people. Ignoring that doesn't help the problem, but just allows it to continue by stepping aside.

[Terran]

58. Yes

It is not an admission that there are differences. It is an admission that many think that there are differences, and act on those thoughts. As a result measures have to be taken to counter the injustices and oppression caused by those that think that way.

Exactly! You nailed the critical mistake in the thinking of the poster above. Couldn't have said it more succinctly myself.

Dirk

[Terwilliger]

50. practical? so now its not practical to make sure black folks have jobs?

You used the memory of King earlier and he was a strong affirmative-action supporter. Do you support King?

[John BigBootay]

53. I support his dream

If he truly believed in affirmative action (I am not aware of this) than I have some issues with him there. But that is ultiamtely not totally relevant, Dr. King was a man, just like you and me. A beautiful and passionate soul to be sure.

I believe his dream is possible to achieve through use of our strong wills. By speaking, teaching, preaching and practicing a philosophy that seeks to fulfill his dream.

That is MY dream.

[John BigBootay]

55. And no, I don't think you can "make sure" ANYONE

has jobs. That's simply not possible.

But you can strive for a world in which everyone has the same opportunities.

I can practice THAT philosophy in my own life. I can practice my own private form of "affirmative action." I can encourage everyone I know to do the same and to see the human race as a single family that ALL started in Africa.

Idealistic? Totally. Practical? Absolutely. My way does not breed contempt or dependence.

[Pithlet]

59. No

"Idealistic? Totally. Practical? Absolutely. My way does not breed contempt or dependence."

Lets talk about contempt and dependence. The only reason things like AA breed contempt is because of racism. We shouldn't scrap something that works just because it bugs the racists. The dependency thing is a total myth, based on the assumption that minorities are only getting those jobs and placed in schools because they're a minority, and not based on their capability to do those jobs. The reasons they couldn't get the jobs in the first place isn't because they couldn't do them. It was because they were a minority. If jobs and schools don't want to hire them because of the misconception that their race prevents them from doing a good job, then they need to be forced to.

[John BigBootay]

63. .

"If jobs and schools don't want to hire them because of the misconception that their race prevents them from doing a good job, then they need to be forced to."

Schools are already "forced" to, and virtually every company claims to be an "equal opportunity employer."

There is an important aspect of this debate that many here fail to grasp fully, or perhaps ignore-- it is the idea of "unintended consequences." There are tens of millions of "average" Americans who don't believe they are racist and hold no known prejudices-- simply by the fact that they rarely if ever interface with anyone outside their own subset. But these people will become your enemy if provoked into it. The thought of being "forced" to do anything may be so distressing to them that you inadvertantly create a new generation of racists and bigots simply because they resent your efforts.

You are confronting racism and in the end you may be successful-- I am not saying that your strategy is not legitimate-- it may very well work. What I am saying is that there is another way to do it that doesn't alienate a huge number of your fellow countrymen in the process, that's all.

[Pithlet]

66. but that "other way"

that you've been talking about doesn't go far enough. Just thinking that racial equality is a good thing does not go far enough.

Your whole point seems to be that we shouldn't actually DO something about it because it will distress those who either don't see the problem or don't care. I don't understand that logic. If it distresses them, so what? They'll just have to be distressed while society progresses. We don't just allow the problem to continue while thinking about how horrible it is and wish it were better. Sometimes society has to be shook up to affect a change.

[John BigBootay]

69. Fair enough--

I think you grasp my position, and I grasp yours (and the prevailing sentiment here at DU).

You understand that the forcing of legislation and forcing people to behave in a way that is not their custom may bring deep and potentially dangerous resentment upon people like you and of like mind. But you are willing to do that for the potential upside you see in the final outcome.

You will never directly address the concept of racism that lurks in the hearts of some men, however, and you may only enrage those that do not appreciate being told how to live and conduct their business.

We understand each other-- but we do not agree and we'll leave it at that.

[Terwilliger]

46. I think you're not what you say you are

how does that square with your scientific evidence?

African denotes "of Africa" which white folks and their history are NOT

[John BigBootay]

48. You're probably wrong--

I am a lily-white Norwegian/Italian/German/??? dude. But my genetic history almost certainly traces back to Africa-- about 30 to 40 K years ago.

I am very happy and comfortable with my African heritage. I even visited Africa a few years ago. Visiting the motherland puts a lot of things into a very deep perspective. I encourage everyone to go at least once in their lifetime.

[Pithlet]

54. That's the thing

you're talking about a history that is so long ago that it really has no significance, particularly when discussing racism. None of us resemble our ancestors that far back socially and culturally speaking.

[John BigBootay]

57. I admitedly look at the big picture... n/t

[Terran]

62. Ya know, John,...

...the whole "we're all from Africa originally" thing has been around for a number of years now, and I really don't see it making much of an impact on racism in this country. A lot of people refuse to believe it, and another lot of people don't give a f*ck about what was going on 40,000 years ago.

I do admire your idealism, but I also think it's very naive to think that just talking about the issue is a substitute for active and practical solutions. The things that have promoted equality between unequal groups in the US these past few decades have all consisted of programs, like affirmative action, that cost money and involve sacrifice. People like Dr. King inspired others, it's true, but it takes more than just inspiration.

[John BigBootay]

64. Tell that to Ghandi.

on edit:
We here in America are spoiled and lazy. We want our representatives to do the heavy lifting-- there's no substitute for doing it yourself.

[Terran]

76. Um, Ghandi...

didn't just sit around talking to people trying to convince them. He was in the streets confronting the authorities directly, shoving the issue in their faces, albeit non-violently. Is that something you're willing to do, to further the cause of equality? If so, that's good.

[John BigBootay]

80. Absolutely...

The point is-- he was successful.

King was also successful through similar tactics.

But don't underestimate the power of a single voice. Just as pennies make dollars, a single voice, when joined by others makes a very loud noise.

[Terran]

82. No argument there.

And I don't mean to sound overly critical of your approach. I make every attempt I can to educate people I come into contact on racial issues--it's become sort of my specialty, I guess. And I moved from California to a relative backwater, and a lot of people who live are very backward on this subject.

Dirk

[Terran]

56. That's a great idea.

Unfortunately, Republicans and conservatives are standing in the way of such a thing happening (and a lot of the rest of us need educating on the subject as well, apparently...).

[John BigBootay]

61. Agreed (to an extent)...

I honestly don't think we'll have a color blind society in my lifetime (I'm 37)-- but perhaps in 50 to 100 years. These things take time.

Republicans and conservatives? well, they kind of prove my point in a way. The civil rights act of '64 was the right way to go, but you can't legislate-out racism from someone's soul. That has to come from his friends, family, community, church, etc. I personally think it's more important for me to "convert" one racist in my lifetime than to vote for a smorgasbord of AA legislation over the course of my lifetime.

But that's just me-- you don't have to agree and probably don't. That's cool, too.

[xchrom]

68. glad we don't have to agree

whites in this country are culturated to behave in a racist way -- and several hundred years of americas violent, racist behavior is proof enough for reasonable, thoughtful individuals.
like wise it will take legislation in order to break the back of that culturalization -- they aren't going to do it out of the goodness of their hearts -- other wise our history would be different.
affirmative action is a great vehicle for changing behavior -- it's working. but nobdy said white folks weren't going to get their feelings hurt getting from a to b. that's life.