Heresies of a Black Guy - I AM FREE!

[economic justice]

I can hardly stand it any more. I HATE the cubby hole I have been placed in and how DARE I try to think for MYSELF! So....let me get this off my chest among friends. I may get flamed (probably will) but I need to feel FREE! I know from private messages here that I am not the only black man to feel as I do. I do not claim to "speak" for black people. In fact, I will tell you right off the bat: I speak for FEW blacks and even fewer black DEMOCRATS. But, speak I must.

It is hard to be black and not accept the defeatist message of our so-called black "leaders." To believe that you can be black and successful in America is too often considered the thinking of an "Uncle Tom." You see, to be black and to be a Democrat is to be stereotyped like no other group. I MUST accept the message of the NAACP, the message of the Urban League, the message of black "leaders" who tell me that I cannot overcome my being black. To do so would be an "accident" "knowing the right people," "selling out" "Uncle Tommin'" on and on and on. If I reject the Sharptons, Jacksons and the defeatist message of my "leaders" I should be a Republican. Hogwash! What if I am a Democrat on almost ALL of the issues? Doesn't THAT matter????

I am not the most popular person among political types in my hometown because I am black and I **refuse** to be catered to and refuse to be told I need a helping hand, extra this and extra that. I do not hide behind my skin. I absolutely REFUSE to listen to the race-baiting hucksters that tell me and my friends and family that we are NOTHING but victims. How condescending! I will stand on my own two feet and not accept from ANYBODY that I am only "somebody" in a POLITICAL and HISTORICAL context. That is crap - it's not the fifties and sixties, or even the seventies anymore -- it's the 21st century.... a new day....and Harold Ford and others will continue to win with that message. The so-called "black leaders" can take their message of inferiority and cries for step-stools and high-chairs to where it's welcome - among those who need to have *excuses* for not moving up and forward. I reject it with ALL I HAVE. It is a *defeatist* message!!

I work day in and day out with young black males in job training and placement. Unfortunately, most (80%plus) don't WANT to throw off the weight of being a victim. I get called an "Uncle Tom" (and worse) for suggesting that maybe the problem lies within, and the constant BS from our black "leaders" who tell us we need this and that and can't move ahead without extra this and that --- it's completely defeating. My message: Forget the message of crutches and excuses. Forget the message that things are soooo bad being black. Respect our history of struggle, but **honor** it by accepting the future our family before us fought for. Now is NOT the time to sit back and bitch and gripe and moan about everything that is wrong --- think on what is right and TRUE and don't worry about being called "Uncle Tom" or anything else -- strive for success! Strive for a better future for YOU and your family. Accept defeatist "leaders" at your own peril. They make LIVINGS off of telling you how horrible things are. I refuse to believe it!

I have been through college, the Army, worked in the media and now work with organized labor. I didn't fall off a truck yesterday. I don't need to be told that I am "telling other blacks what to think!" (That's a favorite.) I AM THE ONE who has been "told what to think" for decades, and if I DO NOT accept the message of my being a perpetual victim then I am an "Uncle Tom" and worse. Black does NOT mean handicapped. It is NOT a disease. It is a skin color. That is ALL it is. In days long past, that skin color did not give us an equal shot at opportunity. Not anymore. We have all the laws we need. The choice to walk through the doors of a new dawn and step up and ahead is OURS. The attitude must change first. Believe it or not, thinking like this is considered "conservative.' Ha! I am a Democrat....PROUD to be a Democrat. But being black and being a Democrat does NOT mean we must accept the condescending notion that we cannot be successful because things are sooo bad. Other races and ethnic groups have overcome. Jews - success personified. Asians? Some of the brightest and hard working people around. We are BLACK and we SHALL overcome......the dark message of defeat. Visit the site of a REAL "black leader" for America's future:
http://www.house.gov/ford/
DESIGN YOUR FUTURE! DON'T LET OTHERS DO IT FOR YOU!
It is NOT a "Republican" message. It is the message of opportunity and hope carried into the political realm. We are victims no more. We are Americans and we ARE somebody! Sorry this was so long and thanks for reading this far.

[candy331]

1. Seems like you have a lot of emotional issues

that need working out. You are free to vote for whom you choose so are others. You do know that right?

[economic justice]

2. I will say this

"Emotional issues"??? Because I am angry for being pigeon-holed? You mean to tell me that if I express MY opinion on an issue then I am "free to vote for someone else, you know that don't you?" I didn't even mention voting - did I? (I don't think I did) I will vote for the Democratic nominee for what it's worth. This isn't an "election issue".......your point?

[Printer70]

25. I hear you

Good point.

[AP]

9. These are DEFINTELY political, and social and economic issues.

[salin]

30. wow

that is a rather dismissive post/message. Then again, it somehow seems appropriate given the context (in a performance art/ironic sort of sense.)

[ChemEng]

35. Exactly what I was thinking....(n/t)

[RandomKoolzip]

3. I love a good rant!

Thanks for that, EJ. That was cool.

I'm a white guy, so it'd be insultingly presumptuous for me to pretend to know how you feel, but I admire you for being your own person and excelling on your own merits, regardless of your economic stratum or skin color. I say this as a white guy who has still not been able to transcend his OWN working class backround, despite my continued efforts to better myself. I envy your success and hope to emulate it myself someday....I don't ask for a hand out either, but I DO wish that there was a living wage in the USA (and no, I don't see that as a contradiction!)

And I hope you haven't been insulted by any of the white liberal guilt you see on display here, either. All but 2 of my co workers are black at my restaurant, and nothing pisses them off more than some white dude passing off his supposed righteous (self) regard as "concern." They can't respect a pose. Neither can I.

Just be yourself.

On edit: "Emotional issues?!" Guy-yi-yi.....

[lcordero]

4. I REJECT Ford

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2003/roll676.xml
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2001/roll497.xml
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2001/roll398.xml
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2002/roll455.xml

on edit: I REJECT any Democrat that votes like him:mad:

Kudos to Barbara Lee and Sheila Jackson-Lee

[Djinn]

7. sort of like the argument I have with my sister

about whether I'm a feminist or not. I have a bit of a problem with the female "victim mentality" theory that seems to suggest that (for example) a woman who is drunk can not consent to sex so therefore any sexual activity is coerced or forced - I think this is crap and dangerous - if a woman isn't responsible for her actions while drunk surely a bloke can say "yes I raped her but I wasn't responsible I was drunk"

I have never experienced (atleast as far a I know) discrimination because I have no willy (maybe some people have had assumptions or whatever but never in a way that actually effects me) I have always been able to get a decent (well decent-ish) job and have never personally felt that I couldn't or can't do something because of my gender.

BUT I do see where she is coming from in terms of institutionalised sexism and a global system that is patriarchal in it's operation....I'm blathering a bit here but the point I'm getting at is while I don't feel discriminated against that doesn't mean other women in this country aren't - maybe I'm just a bit better at expressing myself, maybe I have no embarrasment gene which means I'm happy to say my piece and maybe because I grew up closer in age to my brother than my sisters I have a better understanding of the male dynamic and am more comfortable within it than other women.

In short it's not really anyone's place to decide who should feel victimized

[linazelle]

5. Kind of confused here...I am black too....

I am educated--grad degree, decent job. Still, I believe there is an ingrained societal caste system that does perpetuate racism. There are established circles where real wealth is exchanged from which most blacks in this generation are excluded and will never see. For those reasons, racism is still an issue in America more than most countries. Blacks in America are playing catch up on many levels which is obvious in a story I read recently which listed the average net worth of blacks as four times less than that of whites.

I think that there is an unspoken prejudice against many blacks which is only dispelled when we state our "qualifications." By appearance alone, we are relegated by many to the likes of those on welfare rolls or inner city ghettos--not just by whites either.

As for following black leaders, I am definitely not one who supports Jesse Jackson or other "leaders." We are not monolithic and legions of blacks feel the same way.

That being said, I don't really believe that things are that bad for blacks either. Eventually, we will catch up educationally and financially with the rest of America. We have the same opportunities today as anybody else as long as we choose to take advantage of them. The problem is, many blacks really do not know where to begin to take advantage of opportunities since they have been raised in poverty and undereducation. I don't know the numbers, but would guess that half of blacks, or maybe forty percent, are in this category.

The only way this will change however, is if those individuals wake up, much like those here have done politically, and take charge of their fate. As Frederick Douglas said, "Power concedes nothing without a demand, it never has and it never will."

[Old and In the Way]

15. We'll meet you halfway.....

"Eventually, we will catch up educationally and financially with the rest of America."

I think the Republican plan is for all of us to meet in the middle. The standard of living for the vast majority of Americans will be heading down unless we retake our government and reset the priorities..

:-)

[economic justice]

53. Excellent post, thanks....

Really an excellent reply. A lot to think about there. Clearly, you are a thinker. If one thinks through all of this and arrives at different conclusions....to me....that's great! I am certainly not trying to say that I have all the answers. I was expressing a legitimate frustration. You, I think, realize that and I appreciate you replying in the way you did. Unfortunately, you'll read a few posts below that seem to think I am a traitor of some kind for daring to even voice some of these things.

[FDRrocks]

6. White Guy who thinks he is empathetic....

I get the general sentiment. I also think there is institutional racism that cannot be stopped through any means other than government interventions.

You can stand alone as a man without a racial distinction that is fine. But this country is owned by rich white folks, and I believe institutional racism still exists.

I think we need a system, temporarily, that favors minorities in college and job applications. I think we need this on a temporary basis to get "middle america" really used to the idea that they live in a multicultural world.

All my ideas on the race issue mainly stem from my believe that institutional racism is very prevalent in our society.

You seem to have a very Libertarian approach to the whole idea. I usually agree with Libertarian ideas outside of economic issues, but I disagree on this issue. I believe minorities need help in this society. Not permanently, just temporarily.

[eridani]

8. Can't find the link, but---

--a recent piece of research compared job applications for white and black applicants.
34% of white men with no arrest record were called back
17% of white men with arrest records were called back
16% of black men with no arrest record were called back
No black men with arrest records were called back

When being a straight arrow black man doing all the right things gets you the same entry into the employment market as a white jailbird, something is seriously wrong. Feeling like a 'victim' looks a great deal like being realistic, though of course it isn't a reason not to strive to be your best anyway.

[wtmusic]

10. Excuses know no gender or race

Hell, there's always an excuse for why 'I' am not where I think 'I' am entitled to be. Good rant--hope you feel better!

[Solomon]

31. Dammit Dammit Dammit.

Acknowledging a fact does not make it an excuse. I for one am sick to death of this kind of rant. Glad it makes you feel better to be so superior, however, I see the same fucked up attitude here about blacks, that the right wing has.

I'm glad you figured it all out. Just go ahead and ignore the FACT that blacks continue to excel despite the racist system. You act like we've all given up. That's such bullshit. We continue on in spite of the crap we have to put up with. Most of us aren't satisfied with making it alone. I and my family have come from a bad situation and overcome a lot of fucking obstacles, but you know what?
It's not very satisfying when I look back and see the rest of us still caught in the shit. I've made it personally, but I take no pleasure in boasting that I was "smarter" because I got out and others didn't.

You act like there's one monolithic way to go instead of working on all fronts. The fact that we have politicians who are still working the front of inequality does not mean we do not have blacks working other fronts. It reminds me of the folly in not knowing that Malcolm X was crucial to the success of MLK. Without the alternative of firey Malcolm, Martin never would have been "chosen" as our leader by the establishment. He would have been squashed before he got started.

I for one would feel a whole lot better if we just got our fucking forty acres and a mule.

[Muddleoftheroad]

33. Polar opposites

Personally, I fall decidedly in between the two of you.

However, one point, no one owes us 40 acres and a mule. That was a military rule, not a law and it was rescinded.

[Solomon]

34. What the hell difference does it make if it were a military rule,

a law or a fucking treaty? I guess the Native Americans have no beef either because they had treaties broken, not laws.

Did the government owe us the protection necessary to our political majorities in the south? Did they owe us the protection to stop the wholesale theft of our land down south? I guess not. There was no "law" that said we should be treated like citizens.

On edit. My viewpoint is NOT a polar opposite with that of the poster. I and my family, LIKE MOST BLACKS, have never used victimhood as an excuse not to succeed. Doesn't mean we aren't victims however. That's my point. To say I'm polar opposite is to suggest that we should only act like victims. If I run in a race with a lead weight on my ankle and come in third, am I not allowed to say I had a weight on my ankle? The weight on my ankle doesn't mean I won't try and run the race, but surely it has something to do with my execution of the race. I will continue getting in the race, but I am also damn sure going to try and get that fucking weight off my ankle. To not do so would be stupid.

[Muddleoftheroad]

36. It makes a lot of difference

The military did not have the right to do what it did, even though it was a very good idea.

The actions were not the result of a treaty, they were the result of an outright military order.

Yes, the government should have protected us more. Had Lincoln not been murdered, that would have happened. Johnson was no friend to the black man.

What land do you talk about that was stolen from us? We didn't have any to speak of.

While you may not have used victimhood, I feel our LEADERS do, as do many who see it as an easy out. In D.C. and Baltimore, I saw this as a common occurance, blaming the man for everything and taking little responsibility.

We are victims in some ways, but need to stop being so, even if it hurts us for a while.

[Serenity-NOW]

11. Just remember whitey is a minority and one of these days... n/t

[economic justice]

52. One of these days, what???? <eom>

[i_am_not_john_galt]

12. Amen and Amen

Thank you for speaking.

[Alenne]

13. This pisses me off

The majority of blacks do not think of themselves as victims. We are striving for success and becoming more and more successful. This is nothing but the Republican message that black people are always looking for a handout. I reject your message that black people are sitting around looking for someone to do something for them and I reject the message that I can't be successful because I am a victim. They are both bullshit and it doesn't sound any better because a black person is saying this crap.

[Printer70]

26. Sharpton et al need to stop

Preaching the doctrine of victimhood. It benefits no one. And yes, it's a mindset that can be cultivated. I'm a minority myself and am insulted by this kind of pandering but disappointed when I see how effective it is.

[Alenne]

39. Could you get me a link to that speech?

I keep hearing about Jesse and Al telling all us black people how we can't succeed because we are victims but I have never actually read any of those speeches.

[Bush loves Jiang]

59. Sharpton needs to stop sucking George Pataki's dick...

The guy has no right to call himself a Democrat.

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. I fall somewhere between

I agree that there is a culture of victimhood and we need to throw off those chains ourselves. Lord knows, our leaders aren't helping. They know that culture keeps them elected or in power.

However, there are issues where we are kept down -- the drug war for instance. It disproportionately impacts young black men. We need to deal with that. We need to fix urban school districts which again hurt our children more than many other groups.

But most of all, we need to admit to ourselves that we have arrived. That it isn't being a Tom to succeed or even talk correctly. That not all African-Americans need to look, act, think or even vote alike to keep their race intact.

[Alenne]

38. I disagree that there is a culture of victim hood

but you can believe it if you want to. I am sure there are some black people who blame their problems all on racism but there are some white people who blame all their problems on blacks and Mexicans taking their jobs. Nobody would dare suggest that those white people represent all white people. The majority of black people are working their asses off trying to have something. The majority of black people are trying to get good educations for their children so they can be successful. You can deal in Republican myths if you want but I will choose not to.

[Muddleoftheroad]

42. Republican myths

The state of our cities is not a Republican myth. It is not a myth to point out how many of our young men die early or go to prison. It is not a myth to say that many just give up.

I don't think we know what the "majority" are doing. I just know that we do fight a culture from rap to hip-hop to drugs to violence that urges our young to emulate the wrong choices and reject the right ones.

Here is this from the UN:

While the conscious prejudices of individual actors undoubtedly play a role in the criminal justice system, contemporary race discrimination in the criminal justice system is frequently subtle and diffuse, revealed particularly in patterns of racially disparate impact -- and in their toleration by the white political majority. Racial disproportions in the national prison population testify powerfully to the inextricable link of race and the criminal justice system. Although blacks constitute 13 percent of the U.S. population, they comprise almost fifty percent of the prison population. African Americans have an eight times greater chance of being incarcerated than do whites. Although young black men in their twenties and thirties constitute two percent of the national population, they constitute one-third of all admissions to prison; they are incarcerated at a rate 17 times greater than the national rate. Thirteen percent of black men are disenfranchised because of felony convictions.

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/geneva/item6.htm

[Alenne]

44. Maybe you should discuss my post

I did not discuss black men and the criminal justice system.

[Muddleoftheroad]

45. You paint a culture that is short of victimhood

I see the opposite. After a lot of years in the urban areas of Baltimore and D.C. I see lots of folks who allow themselves to embrace the culture I just described above. No one is forcing them to take or sell drugs or commit crime or prey on their own neighborhoods.

They embrace it nevertheless and blame The Man for every problem they encounter.

[Alenne]

48. A lot doesn't mean all

I obviously see the opposite of what you see and Thank God. I see a lot who are going to college and graduating. I see a lot who are getting good jobs and who are successful. I see a lot who have not been to jail and don't plan on doing anything to get them there. I see the positive when everyone else wants to see the negative.


There will always be people who blame someone for their problems. There are white people who blame blacks for taking their jobs. There are black and Hispanic people who blame white people for keeping them down. But they do not represent the majority of black, white and Hispanic people who are trying to be successful without blaming anybody for their problems.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Isome]

18. Vicitimology is being peddled by the white GOPers... hard!

and it has been peddled since the beginning of time.

White people had brought so many Africans in the country, they outnumbered the Europeans, so they made laws to prevent the enslaved Africans from being freemen... which would be hard on the poor white men in the country who were free. They cried Victim.

Afterward, white people were sure that just living too close to Black people would cause unspeakable horrors to happen to their women and children, so first we had Jim Crow, then defacto segregation like segregated schools and real estate redlining... to save white people from the predatory Black folks. They cry Victim.

A Black man stands in his doorway and is shot 19 times by the police because they were sure his wallet was a gun... after all, Black people are so violent towards police, shooting them practically on sight is necessary. They cry victim.

According to too many white people, Affirmative Action takes away their jobs, or slot in a university, and gives it to the nearest, least qualified Black person. They cry victim.

Not a single Black person in a position to communicate to the masses has sent messages saying that Black people cannot help themselves or that they are lesser people who have not succeeded or cannot succeed. The message has been and will always be one of parity. Attitudes cannot be legislated, but behaviors affected by attitudes can be. (It's important to remember that everyone who steps up to the plate to champion a cause isn't necessarity a leader, just like not everyone who claims to be someone or something on the internet is what they say they are.)

There is systemic racism in this country, it's indisputable to anyone who actually does think for themselves. The contempt directed towards Black people by others of their ethnicity isn't because of what they think; it's because they don't think. Instead they act as a sponge, whose soaked up all the external negativity, and now projects it onto the image in the mirror.

[Solomon]

32. Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou Isome

Very well said. I don't have the strength to tear into this one like I should.

For all you highfalutin successful black corporate moneymakers who are so ashamed of Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton, let me explain something you might not be aware of.

Without people like Jessie and Al around, you think you would be such a hotshot? Don't you know it's because of threats like Jessie and Al that you have your hotshot job? My wife is a lifetime worker for IBM. Whenever they have slowdowns, guess which employees are the first to get shafted? When Jessie was out there doing all the "corporate shakedowns" as O'Reilly puts it, you guys were protected in your jobs. The moment they took Jessie down with the illegitimate baby thing, he lost his "shakedown" power. Guess what happened? Corporations felt free to go ahead and riff tons of blacks. Without the threat, you guys would be nowhere. So get off your fucking high horse. What they do is just not for "those blacks".

I might not agree with everything they say or do, but I'm damn glad somebody is out there saying it and doing it.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

47. Racist result

In fact, even if the action was not racist but had a disproportionate impact on our people, it would STILL be actionable.

[sandnsea]

16. "overcome my being black"

I'm white, but that phrase just bugs me. I've tried to put it into words, but I can't. It just bothers me, race just is. A person shouldn't even be in the position of thinking that race is something to "overcome". Opression is overcome, bad things are overcome, not race. I don't know, but I'm going to post this for more debate.

[JasonBerry]

17. I think

I find this thread rather fascinating. I think the poster was saying it in a cultural way, as in overcoming the road blocks due to racial prejudice. In other words, like the old spiritual "We Shall Overcome" is used:

1. We shall overcome
We shall overcome
We shall overcome some day
Chorus:
Oh deep in my heart
I do believe
We shall overcome some day


2. We'll walk hand in hand
We'll walk hand in hand
We'll walk hand in hand some day
Chorus:

3. We shall all be free
We shall all be free
We shall all be free some day
Chorus:

4. We are not afraid
We are not afraid
We are not afraid today
Chorus:
5. We are not alone
We are not alone
We are not alone today
Chorus:

6. The whole wide world around
The whole wide world around
The whole wide world around some day
Chorus:

7. We shall overcome
We shall overcome
We shall overcome some day
Chorus:

[sandnsea]

20. That's overcoming oppression

Oppression is a bad thing. Skin color isn't. That's why I thought it was a strange choice of words.

[markses]

22. Curious evolution

The "spiritual" was actually called "I shall overcome" and did not sound at all like what we hear today until Pete Seegar and Guy Caraway - in connection with the political work of the 1945 South Carolina tobacco strike and the pedagogical/political work with the Highlander Folk School adapted it in the 1940's. The "I am not afraid" stanzas were added only in 1957 as a response to racist violence, including KKK attempts to shut down Highlander (Highlander did have to close in the early 1960's, if I remember correctly, as a result of accusations of communism and federal investigations into same).

It's well and good to wax nostalgic about "overcoming," but "overcoming" is political. That is to say, a strong injection of social class that - while portrayed as "victimhood" in the initial post (I think, in part, accurately, given the excessive attention paid to "feelings" in early 21st century capitalism) - can also be portrayed as clear-sighted understanding of the social forces at work. It's a nice song, but it's meant to DO something, and I don't think it's meant to "overcome being black" in the way E-J claims. At least, don't tell Miles Horton or Gus Caraway that!

[Printer70]

27. Misinterpretation

Not being a minority, I see how it might be easy for you to do this. His point is that he sees himself as a person, not constrained or defined by his skin color. We don't want politicians who see us by our skin color first and treat us differently- especially paternalistically. Much of racism today is subconcisous and requires us to be less race concsious, not more so. Judge people by the "content of their character" not the "color of their skin". The race-consciousness mindset is something to be overcome.

[linazelle]

19. kick

:kick:

[markses]

21. Ay yay yay

Rhetorical strategy of reaction, page 1 of handbook:

1. Before you begin, establish your ethos by portraying yourself as an outsider, even though you are parroting the line of the most powerful social forces. Example:

"I know I will be in the small minority here, and I know I will be reproached and attacked and savaged by those who favor conformity and group think, but I believe that everyone has equal opportunity in America!"

This strategy has several benefits. First, it casts you in the "little guy" role which has tremendous emotional appeal - since possibilities and potentialities for life remained thoroughly constrained by powerful social forces for the vast majority of people. In other words, the martyr role rings true, because people generally feel that their lives are affected by power. The trick is to reverse and obfuscate the operations of that power and its effects. This way, you get to play the "aggrieved" while at the same time aligning yourself with the stronger power. An inestimable benefit for YOU, and an inestimable benefit for the stronger power. Second, it disarms opponents attacks by pre-emption; the martyr stance prepares the ground for response.

2. Deny social oppression of any kind, but do so subtly.

Is strategy 2 in absolute contradiction with strategy 1? Yes, of course it is. Strategy 1 works because there is social oppression, which is the only reason the martyr role has any rhetorical force. Yet strategy 2 diminishes the effects of power without diluting the force of strategy 1. How does this work? It works because of the inherent contradictions of the social formation, and because of ideology. There is little doubnt that the "victim" role is overused - strategy 1 assures its overuse. At the same time that those who are legitimately aggrieved in the current social formation ARE, in fact, oppressed, it is also the case that such oppression is not total, but leaks. Moreover, following the "wounded attachments" line of argument put forth by Wendy Brown, it is clear that focusing solely on the oppression is not sufficient for transformation. Strategy 2 cleverly plays on this facet of social movements by portraying a binary situation: either victimhood or transformation (with the necessary proviso that the only path to transformation lies in alignmemnt with the current social power).

So, we have a internally unstable strategy that nevertheless works wonders: Claim to be a victim (this feeds the true victimhood of the majority of people); the deny victimhood (this proposes assimilation to the current power as the only route out of victimhood).

Needless to say, there are other possibilities:

1) The victimhood proclaimed could take aim at the true forces of social oppression rather than aligning with them and claiming oppression on their behalf.
2) The movement for transformation could come through practices NOT aligned with the current social power. In other words, they could transform the social relations rather than merely reproducing them.

The beauty of the reactionary methods outlined above is that they subvert these alternatives while asserting the interests of oppression.

[ret5hd]

23. Excellent...

wish i had taken debate in HS...

[Catherine Vincent]

24. Whatever...

n/t

[Printer70]

28. People shouldn't let...

white guilt eat them up. Some minorities don't want paternalism.

[fire and desire]

37. You're mixing up ideas

I don't know of any blacks who are referred to as "Uncle Toms" when they strive for and achieve a better life. I'm not sure where you live but it must be pretty bad there.

That label is typically used to describes blacks who (whether successful or not) shun their own people in order to win cool points with whites. This is typically done by making blanket generalizations (such as: blacks are lazy, looking for handouts, afraid of success).

Re: Jackson and Al Sharpton. If you're referred to as an uncle tom, its probably because you let the media (which is run by whites) decide who you should respect and who you shouldn't respect (for example Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh). True, they didn't grow up in fancy middle class homes and they didn't receive top notch educations. Yet they've succeeded in making a lot of people uncomfortable by bringing certain racial issues to the forefront. Instead of being ashamed of "your own" when their faces show up on the evening news, try listening and understanding the message they're trying to get across. I'm not saying to follow them, I'm just trying to get you to think for yourself w/o letting people like O'Reilly decide for you.

[Judi Lynn]

43. Appreciate your post, fire and desire!

Welcome to DU. :hi: :hi: :hi:

Thanks a lot.

[economic justice]

51. Think about this

You said: "That label (Uncle Tom) is typically used to describes blacks who (whether successful or not) shun their own people in order to win cool points with whites."

Yes. Exactly. My point is this: Don't allow people to tell you that doing "X" and "Y" and "Z" is "acting white." For example, I conduct a job interview workshop that sees mostly 18-25 year old black males. When I bring up the point that you should be sure and turn down the radio, etc. when you pull up in front of a business you'll be interviewing with, I hear hisses and "shiiit" etc. Is turning down the thumping hip hop really a big deal when you pull up in front of a potential workplace? I would say the same to a white kid listening to heavy metal. Most realize this makes sense. But some think it's "scoring points with whitey." The real issue is - what is acting white?

WOW!!!!! Talking about making my point!!!!! I cannot believe you wrote this:

"Yet they've succeeded in making a lot of people uncomfortable by bringing certain racial issues to the forefront. Instead of being ashamed of "your own" when their faces show up on the evening news, try listening and understanding the message they're trying to get across. I'm not saying to follow them, I'm just trying to get you to think for yourself w/o letting people like O'Reilly decide for you."

You said exactly what I say the black "leaders" (that you're so fond of) say all the time. Your message to me is clear: Blacks think ONE WAY and if I have different ideas, then I am "listening to O'Reilly and Limbaugh." How condescending!!!! Black Democrats, black PEOPLE must all think alike, huh? Otherwise they are "putting down their own." I think your reply pretty much was a perfect example of the culture I was talking about in my original post. You blast me for thinking for myself while telling me to....."think for myself!?!?!!! If I disagree with the message of Jackson/Sharpton/etc. then I am not "thinking for myself"??? Thank you for making my point better than I ever could!

[fortyfeetunder]

40. On your points about motivation....

I am particulary intrigued by your dicussions about talking with young black males. There are ways to motivate people to excellence, and I am wondering if you came across as a motivator or demotivator. I'd love to talk with the people you've mentored...

[economic justice]

50. That was a personal sideswipe

You don't even know me. I have been called a quality motivator and have many of the kids I have worked with become friends and turn their lives around. Having once been a "young" black male, I can relate and feel I can help. Feel free to email me and maybe we can talk.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

41. You sound like someone with a bad case of internatlized racism

That is, you believe the negative stereotypes about your own ethnic group.

I'm white and no expert on what black leaders say, but I've never heard Jesse Jackson or anyone else tell African-Americans that they should all just lie around in the gutter and feel sorry for themselves.

[economic justice]

49. On the other hand

Overtly? You are right. But the message is unmistakable. Bush has never come right out and said, "I want the rich to get richer," either. But, his message, again, is unmistakable.

[Alenne]

54. Could you give an example?

I hear this about "black leaders" often but I have never actually heard them say overtly or otherwise anything that even comes close to black people can not be successful in America.

[sweetheart]

55. inspiring feelings: is freedom genetic or conditioned?

We all get handed crippling issues to overcome in life, some more so than others... and inevitably these are internal, yet one can't deny that the outside world is blacks-white equal. I have no answers, just to treat the outer world as if it does not exist denies the fact that it does.

To "treat" it implies that someone needs special treatment, which enforces a victems state of mind. I simply don't know. Affirmative action does seem fair to me. Prisons are mostly filled with black folks and clearly the "legal" system (justice is hardly an apropriate word) treats black skin unjustly most of the time... statistical denial that there is endemic racism in america is simply arrogance and blindness.

Just it seems to me that some of those problems are the same as poor people of all races... and that class-poverty is root, as much as race is. Identifying too much with the old barrio and never learning how to speak and function in polite, upper-class (read wealthy) business society blocks one from being that. Just attachment to "being" any class is arrogance and egotism in my view, yet we need to work and economically succeed in life, and to not be in that upper class working, means your kids get worse education, that you live in a less nice area, that crime is likely a greater problem on your block and all that sorta stuff... environment is the issue, much more than genetics.

I think the crux of what defines "republican" in this area is the belief that wealth and success in life are "born" and not made... that your class gentry is your original sin, and that you can't change it, or god performed a miracle if you do... and i think that democratic views would be that all people are equal in birth, and that by providing one child with a different feedback-environment than another, behaviour, class and success in life become conditioned.

Were i black, i would get out of the USA first, probably to canada, and get as much college education as possible to stave off the inevitable racism around intelligence and such... I would live in a nice area and ditch any person in my relations or friends who treated me as black. I'm a person first, skin second.

I respect your conundrum. I have no answers. The film "trading places" with eddie murphy tells the truth, IMO. It is an issue of environmental reinforcment of concepts of self.

If you do nothing, you are already free. There is no freedom at the mountain top that is not already there at the base. Freedom is a state of mind, unbound by attachment to concepts of self. Just thinking oneself a greater concept is not freedom, or perhaps in a relative world it is "greater freedom" yet in that world, one is never ever really free, as you are always beholden to "the man".

I admire your courage to speak on this, and am very glad you do.

God bless you and your loved ones,
-sweetheart

[Comadreja]

56. No offense to you

Condi "Nice job, boss" Rice has removed any doubt that blacks can also fit in with neocons, though I think she is even more strident than before (perhaps a sign of inner conflict?).

[angee_is_mad]

57. feeling just a tad insecure R U and unappreciated?

it will be alright my brother. Now why you feel that it is neccessary for you to explain that you do not need a hand out and that you work is pretty suspicious to me.

Are you against affirmative action? Is that the basis for your post?

[economic justice]

58. ???

I wasn't "explaining" anything of the sort. I also don't feel insecure. Misunderstood? Maybe. I take that back.....from your reply.....obviously misunderstood.