Let's clarify something here...this is important.

[RapidCreek]

While I will agree that Georgy W. went AWOL....HE IS AND WAS NOT A DESERTER. If we are to be taken seriously in our assertions about AWOLS "service" to his country we must speak from an informed position.

To be classified as a deserter one must be away without leave, while on active duty, during a time of war. Bush was not active duty during the Vietnamn War.

Short post, I realize...but I think this is something that needed to be said. I would encourage all of you to correct this common error when you see one of our fellows commit it.

RC

[curlyred]

1. and Howard Dean is not a draft dodger

I do think part of the rhetoric about Bush is reactive to crap we hear about Dean and Kerry. If the tactic of spinning and exaggerating works for "them", it is very tempting to engage in it ourselves.

[RapidCreek]

8. Certainly it is....none the less it is counter productive if we give in

to this temptation....The facts are damming enough. As the author of post 2 suggests, by giving in to colorful inaccuracy spurred by rhetorical emotion we create for ourselves a trap. We give the obfuscators, misdirectors and lier's ammunition to paint us a malcontents and wackos.

We don't need to spin or exagerate.....The facts speak for themselves. Pronouncement of truth is not an attack. Inaccurate assertion is, whether intentional or not. This is why we must be as accurate as possible.

RC

[FreeperSlayer]

13. ROFL!

[Mistress Quickly]

2. You're right

We have to have all our ducks in a row, or else the media will harp on the fact of the differences between AWOL and deserter, and meme it down the memory hole, like everything else.

[Don Claybrook]

3. I thought AWOL was < 30 days

And deserting was anything > 30 days.

Is my assumption incorrect?

[RapidCreek]

16. To be guilty of Desertion Intent must be proven.

Being AWOL for mor than 30 days is often treated as intent....but not always. It is certainly termed criminal behaviour. Since Vietnam was not technically a war but a police action that intent would need to be assessed by a special courts martial and would not be considered a capital offense. IF George had gone AWOL for more than thirty days during a time of war his case would be heard by a General Courts Martial and would may be considered a capital offense. There are different typed of AWOL offenses. If you miss a formation or are late to work it’s called failure to repair. If you’re gone for a day or more, it’s AWOL, and if it’s longer than 30 days you’re dropped from the rolls and a desertion warrant is issued for your arrest. Herein lies the rub....I have yet to see ANY evidence that George Bush was dropped from the rolls or that a desertion warrent was isseud. As such, stating that he deserted is incorrect. On the otherhand plenty of evidence exists that he went AWOL.

RC

[RandomKoolzip]

4. Saying that Clinton was a draft dodger never hurt Repub crediblity

with the general public. Shit, If I had apenny for every time I heard the media say that "Gore says he invened the internet," or "Clinton inhaled and dodged the draft," I'd be able to retire. Yet, those are all inaccurate or bald faced lies, spun by Rove and the RW media mavens. Yet, this strategy of exaggeration WORKED for the republicans. Hell, now they've got all three branches of govt. and the fouth estate as well.

Seems like "dumbing down" a story for maximum impact has worked for the right, right? Not advocating "lying" here, but if the public wants to believe that Bush is a Deserter, more power to 'em.

[RapidCreek]

11. The point is...is that that is taking the low road....

Many times I have become enraged by those on this board who feel that pronouncement of an uncomfortable or embarassing truth about a politico is "taking the low road". It is no more taking the low road that saying "the sun is very hot". Intentionally and to some degree unintentionally introducing lies, innacuracy and misdirection IS taking the low road and should be left to the likes of the Limbaughs, Hannity's, Orielly's and Roves of the world. Rethuglicans MUST lie, they MUST misdirect and they MUST obfuscate. The nature of their ambition and the fruits they seek as reward requires it. Quite the oposite is true with those of our political bent.

We do not own the media...we cannot monopolize it's message and when given the mic we must be accurate or we will get burned. We are a party of virtue and we must make every effort to behave as such...anything less and we become hypocrits. This is not to say that we need to be mealy mouthed, molly coddling milk with toasts who won't say shit when we have a mouthful. When we do say shit...particularily when we are in our enemy's house, we damn well better be accurate in our assertions....or WE WILL get called on it and the power of our message will be lost.

RC

[Warpy]

5. Chicken George

...has run away his whole life. Mentioning his AWOL status during Vietnam should be an "oh by the way" leading into his cowardly behaviour on 9/11, his inability to conduct an unscripted press conference, his inability to tolerate any dissent (including silent protestors holding signs or simply turning their backs), and his complete inability to debate an opponent during a presidential campaign, even in a forum as controlled as the LWV forum is.

After all, the AWOL thing is just an early indication of a cowardly pattern that has lasted his entire useless, wasted life.

[mike1963]

6. Here's a link to Article 85

It doesn't say anything about "a time of war."

YMMV

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/ucmj/blart-85.htm

[dennis4868]

9. Thanks....

you beat me too that :-)

[RapidCreek]

12. This does however....

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/ucmj/blart-2.htm

AWOL's unit was not activated as such they were not in "Federal Service". Calling him a Deserter is stepping onto dangerous ground. We know he did report to a post at some point after his initial AWOL period, so proving intent as far a desertion is a difficult thing to do. We KNOW that he was AWOL. That can easily be proved. Personal feeling aside...being absent without leave for more than thirty days in often treated as intent to desert but NOT ALWAYS. Determination of whether or not George W. Bush Deserted would need to be assessed by a special courts martial since technically speaking the police action in Vietnam was not wartime.

I personally would prefer to err on the side of provable fact...if I were to make such claims on national media outlets

RC

[Demonaut]

21. says DESERTER to me

Uniform Code of Military Justice does not make distinctions about the status but about the punishment during a time of war

[RapidCreek]

32. The point is, that the UCMJ does not apply to gaurd units

not in federal service.

RC

[BOSSHOG]

7. I served in the Navy 24 Years

george bush deserted his fellow servicemembers leaving a void which hurt his units integrity. Sea lawyers will claim he did not "desert." Murderers who are not charged with murder did not murder, I suppose. The American College Dictionary offers this definition - To desert: to forsake one's duty. I would not want the sonofabitch in my unit. When discussing bush with conservative morons I shove deserter down their throats, because in my heart HE IS A DESERTER, one who has never been held accountable for his actions. I do not give a flying dog fuck less about what some conservative asshole thinks about my fact based opinion of the commander in chief.

[HawkerHurricane]

10. I concur, Chief...

Anybody away from his unit less than 30 days without permission is an 'unauthorized absentee' or AWOL. More than 30 days, he's a deserter.
And Bush was more than 30 days.

PO1(SW) H. Hurricane

[Ivote]

14. Excuse Me

But AWOL is an acronym for
A= Absent
W=With
O=Out
L=Leave
This is for the folks that are not familiar with the term.
By the way, my husband had been home on leave and had gotten sick.
He went to a Military Hospital and was admitted, but they never contacted his base. Dont you know the MP's (Military Police) showed up the next day at my house and was charging him as being AWOL, until they confirmed that he was in the hospital. That was only one day.
I guess things were done differently back in the 60s.

[HawkerHurricane]

15. Things were different, all right...

They were stricter.
And it was easier for a politically connected rich boy to avoid his duties.

[rppper]

34. after 30 days, one goes into deserter status.....

be it war time or peace, at least that was according to the ucmj during my stint...and seeing how the ucmj is essentialy unchanged since it's penning, i am reasonably sure it is still the same as it was in 97 when i got out.

[RapidCreek]

18. Well I only served three years in the Navy....

And I feel like you do. The point is that knowing inside that the little fucker did desert and prooving it are two different things. WE know he went AWOL. There is proof he went AWOL. Getting into a discussion with Neo-Con Chicken Hawks is not the same as going on national television and spouting inaccuracies. And if, if, you are inclined to suggest Bush deserted on National Television it could certainly be pulled off if prefaced with an explanation like yours. In otherwords..."Certainly Bush went AWOL, of that there is no doubt.....In my mind heart he deserted though...etc. etc. Lacking such a preface the only response a Neocon needs come up with is "No he didn't" and your shot down.

RC

[Deege]

19. While I understand...

the call for using care when making claims about the other side in these issues, I do feel that the Shrub has never been held accountable for his deplorable behavior.

However, I would like to add one additional coal to this fire. Even though there were more than 500 names ahead of GW for Texas National Guard, and his test scores were, at best average to poor, his name was moved to the top of the list. Why? His family was wealthy, his father was a Senator, and as with any spoiled rich kid, he got his way. So, in a universal sense, GW is a deserter, because some other young man had to go to Vietnam so little Georgie could stay home, snort coke, get drunk, and then not even bother to show up for National Guard duty. The disgust I feel for this man is more than I can contain.

Deege

[HawkerHurricane]

28. Minor, nit picky correction...

George Sr. (George the Greater) was a congressman, not a senator.
Other than that, you are on target.

[Bandit]

17. There is the military term "Desertion" and then there is the people's term

Bush deserted his duty to the Guard and that is not in doubt. To actually meet the military definition of the term Deserter Bush* may not qualify but in fact in laymans terms he deserted his obligation to serve. He was Absent without leave for over a year. He obtained a "Special Commission" for what, we have no idea, considering most "Special Commissions" are give from the battlefield. Better known as "Battlefield Commissions" Bush* was commissioned faster than any other individual without receiving a "Battlefield Commission" With that Commission came obligation. He deserted that obligation.

[RapidCreek]

20. If You All Would Like to Know How I Really Feel About AWOL George

This is a letter to the editor I sent my local paper and they refused to print....even though I supplied evidence of my assertions.


I am a veteran, as is almost every male member of my family prior to 1985.
We have fought in every war from the Spanish American War to Vietnam, with the exception of
Korea....perhaps prior wars as well but no history is available.


George W. Bush was a vocal supporter of of the police action in Vietnam. I
won't belabor the point of how he got into the Texas Air National Guard
ahead over 400 already on the waiting list. I won't belabor the point that
he declined the opportunity given on his enlistment papers to serve
overseas. I won't belabor the point that he disobeyed orders and failed to
show up for drug testing and a mandatory physical and as a result was
forbidden to fly. I won't belabor the point that his being forbidden to fly,
effectively wasted the 200,000 to 1,000,000 dollars worth of US taxpayers
money spent to train him. I won't belabor the point that he went AWOL by
UCMJ legal definition and got away with it. What I will belabor is the fact
that George W. Bush stood in front of my countries flag, a flag which my
family has protected for the past hundred years, and SWORE, with one hand on
his heart:

I, George W. Bush
Do solemnly swear
That I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States
Against all enemies, foreign and domestic
That I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same
and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States
and the orders of the officers appointed over me
According to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice

SO HELP ME GOD

This was a pledge of commitment. It was a pledge made under the eyes of God
to fellow country men. It is a pledge that George W. Bush failed to fulfill;
a failure borne not of hardship or the fortitude of principle but of
arrogance and privilege.

As a US veteran, I find the man, George W. Bush and anyone who attempts to
defend or excuse his dishonor to our flag, our constitution, God and our
country, contemptible and unpatriotic.

He has no business being our president and certainly no business being
Commander and Chief of the United States Military. He has no business
expecting young men and women to live up to a commitment that he himself
decided was not worth living up to. My head hangs in shame that this man
represents our country to the world.

Sincerely,


RC
USN VET

[Demonaut]

22. RC, Where did you serve?

I was on the USS Constellation, Ronnie visited us to tout the 4% pay increase for active duty.

[RapidCreek]

23. I am nuc waste.

got an academic drop from nuc school....and ended up working for ET support detachment at Great Lakes. Never got on a boat, unfortunately. Sounds like you were in shortly before I was...at least you got to "see the world"! Then again....in retrospect I am sort of happy I never made it out to the fleet. One of the guys I went to boot camp with got blown into Jello on the Stark. I coulda been there too. I think 4 or 5 of the cats I was in BC with were on that tub.

Yea...Tailgunner Ronnie....what a champ.

RC

[Demonaut]

24. No doubt about Ronnie

My job was PH, they offered me ET but the schools were too long and hey, thought I'd be working for National Geographic when I got out, or better yet Playboy......Oh well, found out I worked better in the darkroom than as a photographer...I do have some great pictures though

[RapidCreek]

31. Man that must have been sweet

You made the correct choice my friend! I am envious. You see I am a photographer/artist myself....I might have actually enjoyed my time in the service if I'd had your job.

RC

[GuyFawkes]

25. Dean is a draft Dodger. Bush is a Draft Dodger

Let's not parse words here. Both of them found a way to avoid service in the most trying time of their generation. OK. If you were against the war as a conscientious objector that is one thing. But neither of them are or were conscientious objectors.

Howerver, Kerry and Al Gore did fulfill their service.

It was a test of a generation, Dean and Bush failed that test.

[Bandit]

26. What about President Clinton ~ was he also a failure?

Dean had a medical excuse Bush* signed up and then refused to go. Big difference. To me a Draft Dodger was someone who went to Canada and burnt their draft Card. It wasn't someone who played by the rules. The rules stated you could get out of the draft if you were in college or had a medical deferment. Another way was to enlist in the National Guard which a lot of people did but almost all of them at least finished their obligation. Bush* did not do that.

[KayLaw]

27. That's just not so

If Dean turned up for his physical and was turned away for medical reasons, that does not make him a draft dodger, nor is it illegal in any way. AWOL or deserter, what Bush did was wrong and illegal. You can't begin to compare the two.

I used prescription pain medication after my surgery, which is legal and socially acceptable. Rush Limbaugh sent his maid to buy similar drugs from a dealer located in the parking lot of a Denny's, which is illegal and socially unacceptable. Yes, we both took the same drugs, but - here again - you can't begin to compare the two of us.

[RapidCreek]

30. You could if you were a NEOCON IDIOT!

RC

[RapidCreek]

29. I disagree

Dean went in for a physical and he failed. He has stated quite plainly that he did not want to serve and did not agree with the police action in Vietnam. Bush said quite the opposite but did something else. See post twenty. There is no comparison between him and Bush...none at all.

RC

[Galley_Queen]

37. There is a Huge Difference

in trying to avoid the draft, and signing up and then just not showing up. Anyone with half a brain tried to avoid the draft. Can you blame them?

And let's not forget that Clinton had ONE deferrment, and then signed up for the draft. His number was so high he didn't have to worry about being called. Nothing wrong there. Especially when you compare ONE deferrment to Cheney's 5-6 deferrments..and all the rest of the chickenhawks like Perle, Wolfowitz, Limbicile, etc., etc.

[Bridget Burke]

33. You're probably right, but discussion is useful!

I'd like to see some news programming devoted to the topic. One pundit could try to prove that Bush was merely AWOL. Another would opine that he was actually a deserter. Surely, somebody else could point out that it was only the TANG, so who cares?

The last point would resonate with those viewers in the National Guard or Reserves, or with relatives in same. Some would even have recently deceased relatives who'd "only" been in the Guard.

In-depth coverage could include Bush's youth & possible drug history; this is one possible reason given for his avoidance of flight physicals. Was his "community service" in Houston prompted by the goodness of his heart or did a judge suggest it? Perhaps some respected reporter would be granted an interview? (Ha!)

Must-see TV!

[kurtyboy]

35. Agreed

Language is important.

But for him to be Honorably Discharged after being AWOL is very, very unusual (Considering the era)

[leesa]

36. Bush has purchased everything in his life and I am sure he

purchased his honorable discharge as well.