Is there PROOF that Bush went AWOL?

[SeveneightyWhoa]

Bush apologists at a right-wing forum are asking for proof that Bush went AWOL. They say he was honorably discharged, whereas I've heard differently.

So provide me with the proof, simple enough for rabid Bushists to digest.

[Woodstock]

1. Lots of good stuff is here including scans of documents

The Boston Globe article link that outlines the case very well:

http://awol.gq.nu/AWOL_Globe%20series.htm

Tom Paine article, another good one:

http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/3671

Scans of the National Guard documents of Bush's records:

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/document.htm

And some interesting scans here:

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/privilege.htm

Satisfactory participation during my membership in the Air National Guard of the United States will be attendance and satisfactory performance of assigned duties at 48 scheduled inactive duty training periods and 15 days field training annually... statement Bush had agreed to.

Bush admits his attendance was spotty. During one interval he skipped all drills between May 1,1972 and (at least) November 29, 1972. That period of time would have encompassed 24 training periods.

But Bush was serving in a champagne unit that was refuge for the area sons of privilege. Its ranks included John Conally's son, Lloyd Bentson's son, John Tower's son, SEVEN Dallas Cowboys, and two sons of the businessman who got G W Bush into the Guard ahead of hundreds of others on a waiting list.

[OneTwentyoNine]

2. Huh,ask them where the proof is that he wasn't AWOL

Point is that there is no records of his service when he got transfered from Texas. Hell,of course he got an honorable discharge,he dad could have arranged that easily.

Ask those same people why Bush and James Bath refused to take a random drug test by the NG. They both were grounded over that refusal. Maybe those Bush boot-lickers can explain that one.

David

[cosmicaug]

10. Civil liberties.

OneTwentyoFive wrote:

Ask those same people why Bush and James Bath refused to take a random drug test by the NG. They both were grounded over that refusal. Maybe those Bush boot-lickers can explain that one.

<DEADPAN>They were both ardent supporters of civil liberties and were making a principled stand against drug testing?</DEADPAN>

O.K., boys and girls, don't laugh so hard.

[Hippo_Tron]

49. LMAO that was the funniest thing I've seen all night...

Stand against drug testing, BWAHAHAHAHAHA.

[RapidCreek]

18. Give them Bush logic...

Saddam Hussien must prove he does not have WMD's. If he cannot prove he does not have WMD's it is proof that he must and we shall forcibly remove him from power and prosecute him.

George Bush must prove he did not desert or go AWOL. If he is unable to prove he did not desert or go AWOL then that is proof he must have done so and should be forcebly removed from power and prosecuted.

A body with police powers failure to enforce the law and arrest when it is broken is not proof of innocence.

RC

[9215]

40. hee, hee, hee

I likes it!

[shooga]

36. Yes

he left at least twice ... once for at least a month ... to work on a campaign.


http://www.fudgereport.net

[kath]

55. Yeah, if Bush would just release his full military records, he could

clear this right up!! So why hasn't he?

[rfranklin]

3. He was assigned to a disciplinary unit...

and didn't show up there either. He was discharged honorably because his father was rich and connected. Regular guys who didn't show up for service were prosecuted.

[TomNickell]

4. It's more a question of interpretation....

The facts are pretty clear. Here's the orignial BostonGlobe article:
http://web.archive.org/web/20000619121358/http://www.boston.com/news/politics/campaign2000/news/One_year_gap_in_Bush_s_Guard_duty+.shtml

He trained as a pilot--did some serious time. Then, lost his flight qualification because he didn't take a physical exam. Then wound up blowing off 2 years.

Calling this "Desertion" is 'over-the-top'. But it pisses off the Bushies big-time, so it's fun to do.

I think * made this a legitimate issue when he pulled that aircraft landing stunt.

[cosmicaug]

14. Over the top.

TomNickell wrote:

Calling this "Desertion" is 'over-the-top'.

It might be oner the top but perhaps it is also technically correct on more than one instance.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

48. Desertion "over-the-top"?? Not during wartime...

...and in previous wars some people got shot for doing quite a bit less.

[Bozita]

5. Look at http://daily.misleader.org

===============================
THE DAILY MIS-LEAD
< http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=1304872&l=15657 >
===============================

SPECIAL AFTERNOON MIS-LEAD: QUESTIONS ABOUT BUSH'S MILITARY SERVICE LINGER

Questions about President Bush's military service were raised at last night's
Democratic debate by Peter Jennings who called charges of desertion from
the Texas Air National Guard "reckless" and "not supported by the facts."
However, meticulously collected evidence suggests that there are continuing
questions.


Despite Mr. Jennings characterization, the facts relating to the president's
military service, beginning in 1968, and abruptly ending in 1972 -- two
years prior to his six-year commitment -- are not at all clear.

* Investigative reporters with the Boston Globe looked into Bush's
service during the 2000 presidential campaign, in an article that appeared
on July 28th.

* A retired member of the Air National Guard has obtained several memos
and official letters regarding Mr. Bush's military service, and provided an
analysis of whether the president "did the duty necessary," as he
maintains.

* A scanned copy of President Bush's request to be transferred to an
inactive postal Reserve unit in Alabama (he requested the transfer to work
on a U.S. Senate campaign) can be viewed here:
http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=1304872&l=15658

* A scanned copy of the denial of Bush's transfer order can be viewed
here: http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=1304872&l=15659

* A scanned copy of the memo confirming Bush's suspension from the Air
National guard for "failure to accomplish annual medical examination can be
viewed here: http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=1304872&l=15660

* The full analysis can be viewed here:
http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=1304872&l=15661

Read the Mis-Lead -->
< http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=1304872&l=15662 >

[kentuck]

17. "...failure to accomplish"???

""failure to accomplish annual medical examination can be
viewed here: http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=1304872&l=15660

==================

What does that mean? That he took the physical and failed it? Or that he failed to take the physical altogether?

[Stephanie]

20. He failed to take the physical at all - didn't show up for it

That was the same year they instituted drug testing for pilots. Bush and his good pal James Bath BOTH failed to complete their physicals that year. Bath is the one who later represented the business interests of some Saudis in the U.S. He invested in one of Bush's early business ventures. No one knows if the money was his or the Saudis'.

[Old and In the Way]

26. If he fails to take the physical, how'd he get the honorable discharge?

nt

[starroute]

41. Not just "some Saudis"

James Bath became the US representative of Salem bin Laden (Osama's father) in 1976. According to his former partner, he was also the CIA's liason with Saudi Arabia as of that year (which was the same year that Bush Sr. became head of the CIA.)

Bath helped finance Bush Sr.'s 1978 campaign for governor and then in 1979 paid $50,000 for 5% of Bush Jr.'s Arbusto Oil, using money that may have come from bin Laden (although Bush has denied it.)

When Salem bin Laden died in 1988, his interests in Houston passed to Khaled bin Mahfouz, and Bath continued to manage Mahfouz's investments as well. (Mahfouz himself was then a principle shareholder in BCCI, has been involved in any number of banking and other scandals since, and is the brother-in-law and major financial supporter of Osama bin Laden.)

As of 1992, Bath was being investigated by the FBI/Department of the Treasury for guiding money to Houston from Saudi investigators who wanted to influence US policy while not registered as a foreign agent.

[RapidCreek]

21. Indeed...Mr. Jennings ignorance of the facts certainly doesn't

mean they don't exist....how fucking arrogant. I used to think this guy was a fairly decent journalist.....He has just gone to the top of my list of on-air self important ignoramuses.

How sad.

RC

[Kathy in Cambridge]

6. Here is a post with a ton of mainstream links:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1050081

Good luck!

[Bolo Boffin]

7. He was honorably discharged.

Which is about as difficult as falling off a log.

There is no proof that Bush went AWOL. There are a lot of questions about his 1972 service. He managed to accumulate the necessary points to maintain his Guardsmanship, but it's clear from the record that Bush wrote the last two years of his service time off. He only attended when he had to make up the time. At one point, his absenses got him ordered into active duty time instead of the inactive duty time he'd been racking up.

The big problem is that some paperwork that should be in the record, isn't. When Bush skipped his physical that grounded him, a Flight Inquiry Board should have been convened to examine the matter. The records of this FIB have not been released. If the Board convened, where are the records? If it didn't convene, why not? That's one of the real questions that people should be asking about Bush's Guard record.

1972 is also the year that he took one of his underaged brothers out drinking, then challenged his dad to settle their differences "mano a mano". Christmas holidays, it was. 1972 was a bad year for Bush.

The vet above who cautioned that this might not be the cause to pursue so publicly is speaking from the heart. The only people this tactic will sway are older veterans, and odds are they know about this stuff one way or the other already.

[TomNickell]

13. Harrassment and embarrassment....

<<The vet above who cautioned that this might not be the cause to pursue so publicly is speaking from the heart. The only people this tactic will sway are older veterans, and odds are they know about this stuff one way or the other already.>>

Reasonable point.

Seems to me though that having Michael Moore et al out making this kind of charge eventually helps. Bush has managed to convince many people that he is a Top Gun Gung Ho Military Man.

Rebutting the charge of 'Desertion' or 'Going AWOL' requires bringing up the whole business of Bush's special treatment and general fecklessness. Also touches on the cocaine/drinking issue.

[RapidCreek]

23. The more people yell "prove you didn't go AWOL George"

The harder they'll be to ignore....that is a plane and simple fact.

RC

[Valjean]

16. But he never

But Bush NEVER showed up for his physical. That physical could have revealed drug use.

The reason for Bush NOT showing up for a physical is unfathomable unless he was trying to hide something. He was SUSPENDED from flying because he didn't take his physical. He did not VOLUNTARILY give it up as he claimed.

[put out]

52. This man's mouthpiece said

His personal physician was not available since the future prince was in Alabama. Therefore he could not take a flight physical. Unless his personal physician was a Flight Surgeon, the personal physician could never have given a flight physical. There were lots of Flight Surgeons in Alabama. Also, some were associated with TANG.

Good grief, even that simple fact (a G.P. cannot do a flight physical unless the doctor is a Flight Surgeon) goes unrecognized.

[Dr Fate]

51. If a few more people now know about it, then it's a chink in the armor...

...and that can only be a good thing...

The candidates should just let DEM guests on Political shows bring this up...

[TomNickell]

8. Clark made a more serious charge last night.

During the debate Clark also said something like, "Bush didn't do everything he could have done to prevent 9/11."

Fox news analysts jumped on the AWOL response. Ignored the 9/11 charge.

AWOL seems to have 'legs' today. I've seen no mention of 9/11.

What's going on here?

[kaitykaity]

9. Rotsa Ruck.

Bush-believers wouldn't believe Bush was a murderer
if they caught him in the back room with the bloody
knife in his hand and the body at his feet. There is
no reasoning with them.

But if you enjoy getting your forehead bloody . . .

[woofless]

11. The only guy I know that quit going to Air Nat. Guard meetings

soon ended up with us way down in the S.E. corner of Turkey. Tour length 18 months. This was 1971 so we are in the same time frame as W's supposed "service". No one can deny that he neglected to fulfill his obligation to the FANG. Nor can they deny that the only way for him to get an Honorable Discharge is to have strings pulled on his behalf. He is without honor.

Woof

[booradleyjr]

12. bush tang document images located here

www.thepowerhour.com

[HereSince1628]

15. Yes, yes, Bush seems not to have shown up at all the meetings

the difficulty is that he also wrote a letter seeking permission to do so.

At the time this was happening, there was a general excess of people in service and many units were down-sizing and very liberal about attendance

My active duty enlistment was shortened by 14 months and I was supposed to attend active reserve meetings...like many other Vietname vets I had the attitude "Let them come and find me." Of course they never did.

A more interesting story, which carried into his later life is his drug abuse. He lost the right to fly because he wouldn't piss in a cup.

[Lostmessage]

19. Question is

Are the people that shredding the evidence still alive.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

22. Here is another link to Bush the Deserter with the actual paperwork:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1047325#1047452

[UTUSN]

24. Could Shrub ACCOUNT for That Missing Year, eh/Please??? n/t

[mike1963]

25. It's a tough burden of proof. A "negative", essentially -

very difficult to prove something (anything) did NOT happen. In the absence of military courts-martials, Article 15s, or the like, we are much like in the position of somebody who needs to prove that "person x" (Chimpy in this case) was not at such-and-such a place. The fact that nobody saw him (or will claim to have) doesn't really do anything for our case.

Of course, I believe there is sufficient circumstantial evidence to make a fairly good case he actually -was- AWOL but it probably isn't good enough for either a legal or political conviction...although if it were a Civil case, one could probably convince with a preponderance of evidence.
:grr:

[stevedeshazer]

27. You're joking, right?

It's all here:

http://www.awolbush.com/

[Yupster]

28. Very dangerous

I think this issue is very dangerous for Democrats and can be calamatous in a debate.

It seems to me that AWOL is a formal thing a soldier is charged with. After missing so many days, and trying to locate someone, a person is finally officially declared AWOL.

It's not a matter of missing meetings. You're either declared AWOL or you're not. If there's not paper signed somewhere officially declaring him AWOL, this could be disastrous, especially in a debate.

Question to Democratic candidate during a debate... "People speaking at your rallies have said President Bush was AWOL from the armed forces. You have stood there on stage and let your supporters call the president a deserter . Now with the president on stage with you, will you take responsibilty for what has been said at your rallies, and call President Bush a deserter, or will you repudiate your supporters who've made this serious charge against the president?"

Answer choices?

1. There is evidence that President Bush did not attend all the hours of service he was supposed to in the Air National Guard and therefore the charge of desertion may have some merit. ((Result - headline - Dem nominee calls Bush a deserter. Secondary headline - Bush's commander calls him one of top 5 % of fighter pilots he ever trained.)

2. I'm not going to criticize President Bush for his service in the National Guard. I'm not going to try to reconstruct whether he went to all the meetings he was supposed to or not. (Result - Dem base voters let down again by another backpedal)

3. I don't have time to look into National Guard records of 30 years ago. I'm trying to get elected President so we can get Americans working or not. (Dem nominee looks weak for not criticizing Bush to his face)

Bush's rebuttal...

"Look I'm no hero. Senator McCain, Colin Powell, John Kerrey are heroes. I joined the Air National Guard. I was a fighter pilot. Some even said I was pretty good at it. Anyway, I flew in a fighter again a couple of years ago, and it was fun to put the flightsuit on again, but believe me, the pilot I flew with could have flew circles around me when I was flying in the 70's. (Result -- middle Americans say -- "wow, I didn't know he really was a jet pilot. Post debate coverage of just how good a pilot was George Bush? goes on for three days)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

29. It's an important issue

Maybe you should go to work for Rove-you seem to have all your bases covered.

If the Dems can prove it-and they can-it is an issue that resonates with people in wartime, especially people who have family in Iraq and Vets.

I come from a military family and they will NEVER vote for Bush BECAUSE of his dereliction of duty. This is an affront to the poor white, black and Latino kids that died in his place.

[mike1963]

31. Better Dem answer: "I really don't care to comment on that."

Result- leaves a little doubt for the wingers and gives a little subliminable (sic) message "yeah, I know all about it..."

But I doubt there's anyone except a few hermits who didn't see the "mission accomplished" stunt and heard "Bush was a fighter pilot" on TV a few trillion times.
:eyes:

[RowWellandLive]

32. Great post!

Right on the money. Rational thought rather then emotion is the way to win.

[bobbyboucher]

62. Right on! Give his sorry arse a pass.

He is a fraud. Learn it, live it, and take that apologist crap to hell.

By the way, "rather than emotion" not "then". Thanks in advance.

[stevedeshazer]

33. So, Democrats should talk about the weather?

Nice square pegs you've carved out there, but they don't fit in the holes.

Somehow, I can't see Bush in your imaginary last paragraph. Bush is incapable of admitting to anything less than superlative behavior on his part.

[Bozvotros]

46. Or they could say something like this....

4. Look, Mr. Jennings, Blitzer etc. There is considerable evidence that in the heart of the Vietnam War, when lots of our troops were dying, George Bush was given preferential treatment, undeservedly advanced, was trained to fly at considerable expense and was grounded and disciplined for failing to take a physical. There are also questions about whether he took off for a year or more and did not complete his service requirements. Mr. Bush has claimed that he did complete it. I am withholding a public pronouncement on my opinion at this time, but the simplest way to lay this matter to rest once and for all is to have Mr. Bush release his full military record. He seems reluctant to do this, but util he does there will be reasonable doubts about whether his special treatment extended to an early release and receiving an honorable discharge.


Trust me. They don't want this issue out there for people to mull over as our troops are dying and our Reserves are held over. There are ways to address it politely and firmly and get the facts into the public domain.

[Nihil]

67. Good call

Your reply emphasises the known, provable facts (preferential
treatment, peers dying, failure to turn up for a medical), raises
the questions (AWOL? for such a long time?), states the candidate's
distance from using personality issues (withhold personal opinion)
and puts the ball completely back in Bush's court (where's your
service record then?).

Excellent!

What would be even better is for every Democrat candidate to use the
same format so that not only does it not become a wedge within the
party but also keeps this bubbling as a visible (albeit not vital)
issue that might, just might, start to wake the electorate up again.

Nihil

[Media_Lies_Daily]

47. Junior was a deserter. Face facts and quit making apologies...

...for the treasonous bastard.

[uhhuh]

60. Better response

"I don't think it is a question that should be directed to me. The president is standing right there. I'm sure that you have examined any evidence pertaining to the president's service. Pehaps you should ask him about it."
"I know there have been questions raised about this. I can't fathom why you inquire with me about his life when he is available to you at this time."

[jbm]

30. I have won this argument many times..

by conceding in the beginning that he wasn't AWOL,but then asserting that his service record reeks of special privilege. They go down in flames pretty quickly,because it's so obviously true.

[Yupster]

34. That's a much better tact

The AWOL stuff without paperwork declaring it is a big loser.

[bobbyboucher]

64. The paperwork is there, pal.

It says his ass was grounded and it doesn't say he was present and accounted for. He skipped. Don't give me this "big loser" blather. The mother-fucker skipped out because he thinks the rules don't apply to him. Quit covering for his sorry ass.

[bobbyboucher]

63. Nice cave in.

Keep up the bad work.

[Pobeka]

35. I'm not wondering about whether he was AWOL, why'd he avoid Vietnam?

Other brave men were serving in combat. If Bush was such a good pilot, then why wasn't he using his flying talent to defend our young soldiers on the ground fighting the Viet Cong?

[tinrobot]

37. Good question...

But only the candidates who went to Vietnam can ask it in a debate.

[mike1963]

38. Why not? You don't have to be a chicken to identify a rotten egg...

I was in the AF during the VN "war"...I didn't get sent there, but could have, it just didn't happen to happen, as it were. Chimpy specifically said he wasn't willing to serve overseas. And I don't know where all these recent stories about him being such a great pilot are coming from; everything I've heard for years was that he was pretty mediocre.

It's awfully hard for me to imagine him having the discipline and focus to actually be a good pilot. Unless I was sitting in a seat with controls, there's no way in hell I'd ride in any plane he was driving...

[kath]

56. have you heard the rumors of him crashing a jet?

[Djinn]

50. same here

regardless of whether he was AWOL, missing, skipping the odd "class" or lying under a table somewhere as 48 hours of booze and coke slowly wore off - why was he able to get out of going to Vietnam?? People I know of had to piss off to Canada or the UK, disable themselves, go to jail or go to the jungle. Why was there a Texas air guard at all, why didn't they just write up some legislation that said "if you're rich and/or well connected pease check the box marked priviledged snot nose who doesn't wanna get shot" surely that wouldn't have been anymore obvious than having a division fighting the viet cong over Texas?

What was the reason that Chimpy never had to get near south east asia but 50,000 Americans (and 500 Australians not to even mention the millions of Vietnamese) had to die because their birthady got pulled out of a barrell. How was Georgie boy able to jump over all the other applicants for the sqeamish squadron? all 100,000 of them especially as his test scores were dismal - all this IS on record

But as arguing with freepers is much like banging ones head against a wall I'd simply point out that apart from the reams of evidence presented and widely available,:

In 1968 Shrub declared ON PAPER that he did not wish to serve overseas (one can only assumed many of those dead american boys also didn't want to hence the whole conscription drama and that many serving soldiers could think of a few places they'd rather be than Baghdad.

George W. Bush on sacrifice:
"I've been to war. I've raised twins. If I
had a choice, I'd rather go to war."
Houston Chronicle, January 2002

mmmm guess that was the war you guys fought with Alabama???

[leftofthedial]

39. their "honorable discharge" gambit is a red herring

the whole point is that despite having gone AWOL and blown off a year of service and then being grounded (after the taxpayers spent a million bucks training him to fly) for refusal to take the mandatory physical (which included drug testing), he was "honorably" discharged because his daddy was a bigshot repuke.

[crushbush04]

42. The facts are on this site

Factcheck.org

And quite frankly... I know most will not want to hear this...but the charge is crap

Lets keep it real

By the way this is the absolutely best website to check out political facts of lies on both ends of the political spectrum

[dpibel]

45. Wow! Get yer straight scoop here!

The scales have fallen from my eyes!!!

Thank you.

What does FactCheck, the Annenberg Fund source for God's Own Truth tell us in this thorough, evidence-based debunking? Let's have a look:

"Bush says he missed some weekend drills during the period in question, but attended others and later attended extra drills to make up for those he missed. Several news organizations looked into the matter and reached mixed conclusions."

Now there's a clear exoneration if ever I saw one.

"The fact is Bush was honorably discharged without ever being officially accused of desertion or being away without official leave."

Those of us accustomed to reading will note the all-important qualifier there. Can you find it? Sure! I knew you could! It's "officially." If I go out and kill someone, but I'm never officially accused of murder, then, QED, I didn't kill anyone. See how easy that is?

For reasons not clear (other than, I guess, to demonstrate what a guy our Fierce Warrior Chieftain is, FactCheck wants us to know that his flight instructor ranked him as one of the best 5% flyers he ever did train, and his buds all thought he flew rill good too. It's not clear to me how this proves he wasn't AWOL, but it's in there, so it must.

Then FactCheck tells us that the Fierce Warrior Chieftain and his press guy, Dan Bartlett, both said that he fulfilled his duties. Personally, I don't know why FactCheck didn't just stop right there, since that's proof enough for me. Oh, yeah!! There's a couple of folks who worked on the Blount campaign in Alabama who remember that Boosh was in the Guard, and he talked about it. One of them even dated him (base reached not specified)!!! So she would know!!! "He told us that he was having to do his Guard duty in Alabama while he worked on the campaign." I mean what more do you people want?

Just to give a flavor of the utterly unbiased tone and approach of FactCheck, here's a pretty cool paragraph:

"After the Globe story, partisan websites denounced Bush as “AWOL” and worse. One is even named AwolBush.com . But other news organizations dug in and came to much milder conclusions." OH MY GOD !!!! A partisan website called AwolBush.com???? I rest my case. Can't be true.

Note again the tuned wording. If this were so much bunkum, why wouldn't a person say, "other news organizations dug in and found the story to be a pack of partisan lies"???? Surely it couldn't be because they didn't find it. "Milder conclusions." What a pretty phrase.

And then they talk about Michael Moore and Wesley Clark.

Now, dOOd. You hate to tell me the story is a pile of crap. And this is what you present to prove it??

Who do you think you're playing with here?? (And I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about DU). You have got to promise me that you are joking.

(With apologies to all for the excessive punctuation, but, sometimes, rants are like that.)

[Cronus Protagonist]

59. They ALL know he's a deserter and a warmonger and an imperialist

I like your rant. It got me thinking.

The right wing are presenting their side as if this is a game and the object is to pick a winner and make him one, no matter what. The truth is not to be mentioned - the intention of the right wing is to spin everything in the world into a sword with which to hit the enemy: Democrats, liberals, gays, lesbians, women, wimmen, Wiccans, etc..

Lives lost, harm done, the destruction, the cost, the debt, the environment, social programs, the poor, the elderly, the disadvantaged are either targets or merely "collateral damage" in their lust to win at all costs.

It's spin that is lauded in Republican circles.

The truth is not pretty enough to use as a weapon (especially if you're raping the people's savings bank - The Treasury), and it can hurt you, so it's best to avoid discussing or mentioning it. Instead, Bush and his inner circle wilfully craft every event and news story into either an attack on an enemy or a merit point for Republicans. And they teach the GOP faithful how to propagate the propaganda well and widely.

So they know the truth. They know Bush and some in Congress took us to war in a blatantly illegal imperial grab for the world's future oil supply. We know it, they know it, the world knows it. We all know it. Under all the spin, the facts will out and we all know it.

Some of us are not OK with any of it. Some of us are not OK with a lot of it, and there are mixed opinions all over the place. It's easier to ignore or spin than it is to handle truthfully and if you spin it right, you can even win with it. That's the world according to a Republican Bush loyalist.

So there's no point in anyone trying to persuade a Republican who's playing this game. We're not playing the same game as he is.

I think part of the problem is that we're treating them as if we agreed that they thought their own positions were true. Since they know they're spinning, and they live in a spinning world, anything you say would also be spin for your side, and hence not true and certainly not of any consequence.

I imagine something like this in the mind of a Republican operative: "The facts are irrelevant, or they don't exist, and in any case they are always subject to interpretation. Everything you say is spin, and my spin is better than yours. Perception is reality and I insist your perception be the reality I create with my spin or you're completely irrelevant and wrong."

So how does one whip the carpet our from under one playing this game?

I think the weak point in this method of propaganda is that the spin must be the same monolithic spin all over the place to make it "reality". They, like the author of that web site, need to know what the spin is and they need to evangelize it.

So every day the elite in the GOP get together and decide all the spins on the events of the day, which they then disseminate to the operatives who spread it around on TV, print and radio (I didn't make this up, they do this). So Rush uses the same catchy one-liner as Bush does later in the day, as do all the right wing operatives.

So the right wing speak with one voice, are committed to winning at all costs and are immune to the truth.

But I see cracks now.

What appears to be happening now is a splintering so that there are visible differences between either the spin now and the spin then, or the spins from each of the new internal factions of the Bush regime.

Look at the reasons for war spins or the spins that evolved from election 2000. As we move along, they don't match over time because the spin has to be continually modified to cover new revelations of reality, like no WMD found in Iraq.

Of course, the hardcore brownshirts don't care, as I said, but the people they're trying to keep hypnotized, the masses, are beginning to pick up on this "spin creep".

Then there's the different spin coming from the new factions of the right wing cabal - the libertarians are becoming a bit more vocal against Bush, the Rummy clan says one thing and the Powell clan says another, there are pissed off factions within every group that provides the core support of the GOP: voters - they now have pissed off Christians on both extremes of the scale, small-government types, fiscal conservatives, suburban housewives, swing voters, etc., all creating their own spins and even outright dissenting interpretations.

Heck, some are even embracing the truth now!

The spinning isn't working so well, the game is changing and the Bush cabal is losing control of the message. So it's our job to take advantage of that for the betterment of all mankind.

Does anyone have any ideas?


"FUCK Bush" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[dpibel]

65. Interesting analysis

And probably worthy of its own thread.

I can't figure what real people can do about it, other than call it when you see it. I've had some interesting conversations with my mother, an Xtian fundy who votes single issue Repub. Every time I tell her a bit of truth about the Fierce Warrior Chieftain, she gets a little shakier in her resolve. Then again, she has some interest in the truth, which causes her a lot of problems with her fundamentalism.

An additional observation that fits with what you said: I think a great deal of the anger and uneasiness in the general population has to do with the discomfort caused by cognitive dissonance. The true believers are as you say; they quaff the koolaid with gusto, just to see who can take the most poison. But there is, I think, a great mass of willfully blind people. They know there's something bad wrong, but they do everything they can to avoid finding out what it is. It's hard to live that way. It makes you cranky and out of sorts. It makes you think that maybe you'll feel better a little bit if the USofA goes forth and kicks a bit o' brown butt.

But it never works. The gnawing in your gut never goes away.

But I have no idea, really, how to break through the years of propaganda and conditioning. The true believers, the real gamesters, are beyond hope. How do you get to the rest?

[ThomWV]

43. AWOL Has Little To Do With An Honerable Discharge

You can have an AWOL and still get an honerable discharge, as a guy who was a few days late comming back from a leave one time I can guarantee you of that.

An AWOL in the military isn't the end of the world, a disertion is. As I understood the difference when I was in the Army it went something like this, you were AWOL for the first year, but on day 366 it was disertion. Disertion will get you a dishonerable after a jail term, AWOL will not. Its like a misdemeanor compared to a felony as I understand the distinction.

The point is that the coward did not show up at duty he was obligated to attend for a period of about a year. Do you want that kind of disgraceful background in your Commander in Chief? We're talking about a year here, not a guy who was gone for a couple of days.

Thom

[BevHarris]

44. Start here -- photocopies of his military documents

http://www.talion.com/missing.html

other documents are linked.

Bev Harris

[theorist]

53. J. H. Hatfield's "Fortunate Son"

This book is a great compilation of Bush's public life. As far as biographies go, this one is thorough. The author doesn't approach the desertion issue at all, but portrays this time in his life as troubled.

By the way, of all those quotes on the factcheck dot org site about his time on Blount's campaign, the following one is missing (which is in Hatfield's book):

"Although he is collectively remembered by other staff members as a 'party boy who couldn't keep his hands off the girls,' they seemed to be more surprised that the Texan with a distinct twang acted like a Connecticut-born preppy Yankee. 'He wore penny loafers without socks to the office,' said one surprised campaign associate." (p.49)

Remember the cocaine allegations? This is the book that broke the story, and resulted in the author's ultimate "suicide". (I'm not a die hard conspiracy theorist, but I have my reservations about the events surrounding this man's death.) Altough the author was a convicted felon, this book can be appreciated for its clarity and fairness. You actually get the feeling that the author likes Bush during certain points.

Also, does anyone know of anyone in the Bush administration who chews tobacco? If so, he may be the one who leaked the cocaine story to the author.

[truebrit71]

54. Have them prove he DIDN'T...

Where was he when his base commander couldn't account for him??

[Dr Fate]

57. Sure- lets see his records...

...who he served with and when, what kind of skills he was trained in and to what extent.

I'd love to see some interviews with some people he worked with. It's weird that we have never been shown anything like this...

You would think the media would have investigated this, considering how he played it up during the election...

[TeeYiYi]

58. http://www.awolbush.com/ . . .

. . . thanks to Stevie D and post #27.

TYY

[0rganism]

61. Wrong question: Is there PROOF bush showed up for duty, May 72-May 73?

He was gone from the Alabama Nat'l Guard for a year. He skipped his flight physical, got an official transfer to Alabama from T.A.N.G., didn't show up for duty, got stuck in a disciplinary unit, and ditched that too.

Ask your fine friends exactly what days Bush served to make up his 36 days of missed service between May, 1972, and May, 1973.

Plenty of people here have referred you to websites with proof of his absence. http://www.awolbush.com is a fine repository of documentation. Now, it's very much up to the bushistas to find the proof of his presence. They have the interest in his integrity -- at least they ought to -- so let them do a national service and rescue his honor. If they are unable to justify his honorable discharge, perhaps he didn't deserve one.

[Columbia]

66. You're letting them frame the debate again

There are so much more horrible things than Bush missing a few drills thirty years ago. Don't you know you guys are falling into the trap!?!? By concentrating on this silliness, the real attention is detracted away from the economy and national security. This is EXACTLY what Karl Rove wants. He wants everyone up in arms about 'desertion' or being 'AWOL' with thin evidence while everything else is going down the shithole. Go ahead and keep crying about this and you can bet your DD214 that there will be four more years of Bush.