Have you ever met a confederate sympathizer?

[bluestateguy]

I never have, but I'm curious about anyone who actually thinks that the South's cause was somehow a noble one. I realize that slavery was not the only issue to cause the war, but I just can't imagine that anyone in 2004 thinks it would have been a good thing for the South to have won the war.

[rockymountaindem]

1. I've met a few.

Most of their arguments are incoherent and historically inaccurate. Some of them just claim that if a state wants to leave the Union they should just be allowed to. Again, for the most part their logic just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Sorry, if I tried to explain it my post would be 10 pages long.

[mdmc]

81. America is like a gang

once your in you have to die to leave. You are not free to leave; you are not free to associate with whom you like.

Our strength comes from our unity. Forcing unity weakens strength.

I mean, the USSR should have been allowed to dissolve, right?

[rumguy]

2. no - but I did meet a supposed ancestor of John Brown

[Spider Jerusalem]

27. Guy must've been pretty old, no?

Considering that John Brown's been dead since 1859, and was, if I remember correctly, in his fifties at the time, any of his ancestors would have to bee well over two hundred years old...maybe you mean "descendant"?

[slackmaster]

3. Your best shot at meeting one would be to hang out in the South

I paid many short visits to a small town in South Carolina about 15 years ago. There were a few people who would fess up to at least nominally supporting the Confederate cause, at least the states' rights part of it.

Even people who don't support the Confederacy like to refer to the Civil War as "The War of Northern Aggression".

[DBoon]

5. Sort of like calling

WWII "The War of English Agression"

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

64. That would be...

..."the War of Polish Aggression" according to the official Nazi spin of the time.

[displacedtexan]

4. My entire family

...even the highly educated ones. Thanks for reminding me.

[MrBenchley]

6. Plenty of them

There's at least four or five who indfest the discussion boards at Delphi.

For that matter, the Republican Party is full of them...check out the story of Southern (slavery was good for the slaves) Partisan magazine..

THIS idiot was a Wall Street Journal EDITOR, of all things....notice he conveniently omits some aspects of the slavery experience, like whipping, rape and the like...

http://www.vdare.com/roberts/freedom_index.htm

[arcane1]

7. MET them? Hell, I used to be surrounded by them!

you haven't lived until you see the treasonous confederate flag, and the patriotic American flag, on the same flagpole

[spunky]

76. Thats a daily occurence in Mississippi

since the confederate flag is still in our state flag.

I went to high school surrounded by frat-guy wannabes wearing t-shirts that said "The South Shall Rise Again" and other equally ridiculous statements.

But its because the Civil War "wasn't about slavery, it was about state's rights."

[dwckabal]

8. I am surrounded by them

Southern apologists that claim:

1. the Civil War was not fought over slavery
2. The North invaded the South because they thought it was getting too powerful
3. Most slaves were not mistreated
4. Most slaves loved their masters
5. Lincoln was a ruthless dictator
6. Lincoln loved slavery

etc., etc. It makes me sick.

[Spider Jerusalem]

30. Well, actually, at least some of those are accurate.

The Civil War was fought over secession. The secession of the Southern states was the casus belli, and while slavery was a second-order cause, it wasn't the primary one.

Most slaves, oddly enough, WEREN'T mistreated...to the Southern slaveowners, a slave was a valuable investment, one which he wanted in good health and able to work. Of course, deprivation of freedom and the penalty of lashing, branding or even hanging for seeking freedom is quite mistreatment enough.

And as to Lincoln...there's no getting around the fact that he WAS, essentially, a ruthless dictator. Under his authority and at his direction, Federal troops went into border states, to coercively ensure that elections had the "proper" outcome; dissenting newspaper editors were imprisoned without habeas corpus and had their presses smashed; these among many other things. Lincoln was willing to go to any length to preserve the Union, and saw the nobility of his goal as excuse for ignoble action...an opinion which the overall verdict of history has confirmed.

Oh, and Lincoln wasn't a huge fan of slavery, but neither was his opinion of blacks favourable. His actions as regards slavery during the war were political statements rather than acts of real purpose (the Emancipation Proclamation, for instance, didn't affect slaves in Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri), and he wanted freed blacks deported to Liberia.

The issue is a lot more complex than you seem to realise, and there was good and bad on both sides.

[Skittles]

34. the very fact that one human being OWNED another human being

was MISTREATMENT. UNDERSTAND ???????

[Spider Jerusalem]

56. I think that's essentially what I said.

Sorry if you have a hard time grasping subtext.

[Skittles]

84. essentially, not exactly

I have no hard time grasping

[Spider Jerusalem]

96. So you're just obnoxious for the hell of it?

Bugger off, then.

[mdmc]

82. Thank God that never happened up North!

How many "American" slaves were freed by Lincon through his Proclamation? Zip.
ps - I like civil rights and deplore slavery.

[Tomee450]

94. Weren't mistreated?

Please!! African Americans have oral histories of slavery. It was a horrible institution. My grandmother's great grandmother was a slave. The horrific story of her enslavement has been passed down to us. The long hard hours of labour, housing the slaves under the house on some plantations, the beatings, the rapings, the selling of parents and children. Even pregnant women were not immuned from the beatings. On some plantations, food for the slaves would be dumped into the hog bin. They would have to eat fast or go without food. The slaves were lucky to last through their thirties. It was felt that it was cheaper to work the slave to death, then just buy another slave. Please, let us not engage in revisionist history.

[Xithras]

101. Cheaper to replace?

Sorry, but that's a serious historical inaccuracy. Depending on the part of the south you lived in, slaves cost the equivalent of $15,000 to $30,000 each. Since most slaves were owned by plantations, and since plantations were largely family-owned businesses, VERY few slaveholders looked on their slaves as a cheap-replaceable resource.

Most slaves, in most of the south, were treated reasonably well because of their financial value and their high replacement cost. They were typically given decent shelter (by 1800's standards), two or three meals a day, and Sunday was typically granted as a day off. While it's true that most slaves died by the time they reached their 40's, the same holds true for poor whites (the average lifespan among the poor of any color in 1850 was 42...and the average lifespan among the merchants and affluent was only 47).

There were two major exceptions to this that color our views. The first was the poor slaveowner. There were many poor people in the south, typically the lowest class whites who barely survived by farming a few acres of land. These people would literally save for YEARS to buy a slave, and they often viewed their slaves as tools to be beaten and broken...kind of like cattle. These people abused, underfed, and neglected their slaves badly, often more to stoke their own ego's than to elicit any specific kind of behavior. Sometimes the powerless do evil things when given a little power.

The other major exception, and the one that most of our modern perceptions of slavery originate from, is the cotton fields of Louisiana and Mississippi. Slaves who misbehaved or tried to escape in the northern slave states often found themselves sold down the river to these two states, and to a tragically shortened life. Slave buyers in Miss. and Louisiana often bought these "troublemaker slaves" cheap, for as little as a few hundred modern dollars, and because of that saw little value in them. They worked them seven days a week, they fed them bad food once a day (if that), they didn't provide them shelter, and discipline was often provided with a bloodthirsty savagery completely out of scale with the infractions being punished. It was hell.

The simple historical facts, however, are that most slaves existed in conditions outside of these two exceptions. Of course, the fact that they were slaves at all, stripped of their free will and their natural rights, was abhorrent enough to justify the Civil War and the condemnation of those who supported it (i.e. the Confederacy).

[SoCalDem]

9. Yes I have.. not a pleasant experience

:(

[Dob Bole]

10. I met Jimmy Carter....

It would be a bit of a stretch to call him a sympathizer of Confederate ideals, but he did pardon Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis when he first became President. He writes about the South a lot, and many people in this area had ancestors who fought in the war, but nobody thinks it would have been a good idea for slavery to continue.

[denverbill]

11. Wanna meet one? Go to FR and call Robert E Lee a traitor.

It's pretty damned funny, because there are like 10 diehard Confederates over there and the northern freepers agree that he was a traitor.

[Misinformed01]

12. Someone, I think it was Lars, said just last week

that it was about time for another Southern Bashing Thread!

You must have read that and decided s/he was right!

Edited for snotty comment. God, I hate these threads, I am going to try the new "ignore the whole damned thing" deal...haven't done that one yet.

[bluestateguy]

15. South-bashing

If you look at my past posts you will see that I have stood up to people here who bashed the South. I have lived in Texas for almost 6 years, and I do not believe in South bashing. Indeed, as a Union supporter I appreciate the help of Southern soldiers and officers who remained loyal to the Union, who were willing to be called traitors in order to fight for America.

[Misinformed01]

18. Dear, I don't care how old you are

that was before your time.

However, I am sure that if you had lived back then, you would have been an incredible help to the Union, and that they would have been able to repay all of that appreciation.

[arcane1]

16. this is a south-bashing thread?

How so? :shrug:

ps- I was born in the south, lived there 31 years... I don't bash the south, but I have no love for the confederacy, either. There is a HUGE difference

[Skittles]

36. they always resort to the "south-bashing" defense

always

[JanMichael]

63. They always become south bashing threads.

At least from what I've seen.

[Lars39]

75. There's a lot of things in every region that can be bashed.

Broad-brushing the peopleof an entire region with the racist brush is what is wrong.

[JanMichael]

78. Yes it is and it happens a lot.

Especially on threads like this, even with the best of intentions. Hell I'm probably guilty of it myself. While I may have been born in the semi-South (Arkansas) I've lived all over the States, as well as in Central Europe, and I don't hold any regional loyalties. I'm one of those creepy "Citizen of the World" types:evilgrin:

Flags?

I've got my issues with the 1862/3 Confederate Naval Battle Flags that many of my fellow citizens sport on their vehicles, usually trucks. I think it's intended to offend.

I've also got mixed views about the Civil War (Or War of Northern Aggression...) that sometimes gets me on the occasional shit list.

Institutional Slavery? Evil. Wage Slavery? Evil. Plantation owners with Slave Labor? Evil. Manhattan "Business Men" profitting from Southern Slave Labor? Evil. And so on and so on.

EDIT: The "White Trash" label is also very destructive. While it can be said that it applies to all crude, rude, less than "classy", "white" folks it's usually more focused...

[IowaBiker]

31. Copperheads?

Oh yeah. They're all over the place. Tim McVeigh was one.

Trent Lott.

The guy on the grassy knoll.

The fellow who shot Dr. Martin Luther King.

John Ashcroft is another.

Look at all those Dixie flags down there. It's nothing more than an occupied terrorist state.

Biggest mistake God ever made was not giving Grant and Sherman nuclear weapons.

America would be a much better place without rebel sympathizers.

--Brian

[Misinformed01]

41. Spare me

Martin Luther King
Hank Aaron
Louis Armstrong
Edgar Allan Poe
James K. Polk
Elvis
Merewether Lewis
Thomas Jefferson

Those are right off the top of my head.

Yeah, too bad the South wasn't nuked.

[aldian159]

54. what?

Lewis, Jefferson, Polk, and Poe died before the Civil War STARTED. How the hell can they be confederate sympathizers.

[ermoore]

57. Obviously . . .

you're right, most if not all of those people wouldn't be Confederate sympathizers, but I think the dude's point was that the majority of "great" Americans (and define "great" by whatever criteria you want) are from the South.

Washington
Alvin York
Davy Crockett
Michael Jordan
Patrick Henry
Oh, the list goes on and on . . .

[Dhalgren]

71. "Snort" That's really funny!

"The majority of great" americans are from the south. What a hoot! The South has some things to be proud of, as a region, but mostly the south should be ashamed of itself, as a region.

[napi21]

13. Just come to Ga. or SC

I lived in SC for 6 years, and in Ga. for the last 3 years. There are a lot of Confederate supporters in both states. The former Governor of Ga. was not re-elected because he forced a vote to remove the confederate emblem to be removed from the state flag. Ga. elected the first Republican Governor in over 100 years because they were so upset about that!

You must remember the big deal in the 2000 campaign over the Confederate flag flying over the state house in SC.

When asked, most will tell you their feelings are all about their ancestors who fought and died in the civil war and they WON"T forget them!

I have my own suspicions about their reasons, but I was born a yankee, so I don't feel that I should say any more.

[Rockholm]

26. I am from SC, but live in MA....

I have ancestors who fought and died on both sides. All the men in my family went to The Citadel. The War of Northern Agression was just that. The North won. Let's get over it. By the way, my tag line is "Rebel by Birth, Yankee by Choice."

[Kathy in Cambridge]

28. Welcome to Mass from a native

my Masshole pedigree goes back to the 17th century and I have ancestors who fought and died in the Revolutionary War. All the anti-Northern bias is so silly. That would be like me hating the Brits because they fought in my backyard. if you want to call it the War of Northern Agrression, fine. Both sides were really at fault.

[Rockholm]

38. Thanks for the kind "Welcome" Rose.....

I have been in Massachusetts since 1986. I like to inform the warmongers that scream how this Iraq War is keeping me "free", that my ancestors have fought in EVERY war in the US..Revoluntionary War, War of 1812, Civil, WWI, Korea, WWII, Vietnam, Gulf War. As far as I know, nobody in my family is in Iraq. Thank God.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

46. 1986? You're a native now!

:hi:

My father is a Korean war vet and is so despondent about all the deaths in Iraq. and today in Afghanistan-that was awful.

[mdmc]

85. Ditto Rose! Ditto!

My relative Jon Gist fought in the rev.
I'm a Yankee.
I believe in states rights.
I believe in the Constitution.
If Georgia is more comfortable saying that primitive monkeys "changed over time" to become modern humans, instead of humans "evolved" from monkeys, then let them. (silly)
http://www.recordonline.com

[SaveElmer]

14. Lots...they are in denial

These people love the myth about the South. All the stuff about the lost cause, how confederate soldiers had more panache and drive than yankee soldiers. Some in the South have a bit of an inferiority complex when it comes to the north, and they identify with the underdog nature of the confederacy. In order to reconcile this with what they know to be true, that at its core, the war was about slavery, they have tried to convince themselves that the war had nothing to do with slavery, but was about states rights, and about a northern aggressor who was attacking them unprovoked (they also conveniently forget who fired the first shot), and that slaves really weren't treated badly.

I used to be a Civil War reenactor, which I enjoyed very much. Many of the southern reenactors were like this, and would argue these points with you until all hours of the night (I must also say that I met alot of southern reenactors who were not like this and just thought the history was interesting).

In general, the people I have met who are enthralled by the confederacy are not bad people, and do know deep down what the score really was, but they have compartmentalized that in a way that allows them to reconcile both in their mind.

On edit: Despite my avatar I live in Virginia (grew up in Minnesota)

[bluestateguy]

17. Hmmm

I remember seeing some Confederate sympathizer on TV who claimed that 41,000 blacks fought for the confederacy. :wtf:

[SaveElmer]

19. He's right

I'm not sure of the exact number, but there were a significant number of black soldiers in the confederate army. Some were there for patriotic reasons, but near the end of the war Jeff Davis promised freedom for any who fought for the confederacy. This probably accounts for most of them

On edit: This is of course dwarfed by the 200,000 black soldiers who served in the Union Army and Navy.

[MrBenchley]

67. Sorry, that's revisionist history

and an outright fake from the neoConfederate crowd.

"near the end of the war Jeff Davis promised freedom for any who fought for the confederacy"
Look it up...it was a month or so before Appomattox...and the proposal was never implemented/

[WoodrowFan]

69. Agreed

There were a handful, mostly some Southern free blacks (there were a handful of those) and slaves who went with their masters. But the idea that somehow the CSA had tens of thousands of blacks fighting in their Army is akin to Holocaust denial in its historical illiteracy.

[SaveElmer]

79. I stand corrected

I should have looked at it more closely before I answered. I do know there were black confederate soldiers, and I did say that I didn't know what the number was. Regardless of the number, the use of the fact of black confederate soldiers as a way to rationalize the war is unacceptable.

My point in the previous post is that I know many who are entranced by the confederacy, and they are by and large good people, who if you talk to them realize the war was about slavery, and that it was obviously wrong, but have been able to seperate that in their minds from the characteristics of the confederacy which they find appealing.

[mdmc]

86. Replace slavery with what?

Mixed marriages, affirmative action, separate but equal, the 3 / 5ths rule? Only war would have ended slavery.

[SaveElmer]

87. No argument from me

I'm merely trying to describe what I see in the people I know who are enthralled by the confederacy. I personally have no doubt whatsoever that the civil war was completely about slavery. And whatever was the reason most northerners went to war in the beginning, the outcome was a noble one.

[ermoore]

58. No way . . .

Dude, c'mon. "Inferiority complex," sounds like wishful thinking on your part to me. I think it's more just a case of regional loyalty and it happens everywhere, all over the planet, it just so happens that not everywhere lost the War of Northern Aggression to the rest of the country. Furthermore, no one wants to be the bad guy, and no one wants to think that their ancestors were the bad guys, that's why the South's slavery is minimalized as much as possible.

Myself, I'm from the South, and I'm really big on the South, but I do consider the War of Northern Aggression to the absolute low-point of our history (in that it was, essentially, a war fought in defense of slavery).

On Edit: And yeah, I have met someone who wishes that the South had won the war. What puzzles me most about that is that he's a huge patriot and it doesn't seem like he'd ever want to see America weakened in any way. I think it just comes back to him refusing to admit that his ancestors and their countrymen could ever have been the "bad guys." What's also funny is that this is my cousin and I just haven't had the heart (or the will to start another argument) to tell him that the part of Tennessee our family is from largely supported the Union and fought for the North.

[Anaxamander]

73. Inferiority complex... No.

I'll tell you now that Southerners don't have an inferiority complex when it comes to Northerners. Why would they? Does the fact that the North won the Civil War mean that Northerners are any smarter or more courageous than Southerners? No, it doesn't. The North had more resources, sure, but they also had more casualties than the South. In the end the North won, but why would that mean that someone born in Kentucky would somehow feel inferior to someone born in New York? Is that an inferiority complex Southerners possess, or is it a superiority complex that (some) Northerners project?

[SaveElmer]

83. Not talking about all Southerners

As I said in my post, and I apologize if I did not make this clear, I am strictly talking about those who are enthralled by the confederacy. I have talked to many of these people, particularly when I was reenacting. It is clear when talking to them they cannot stand the thought that the confederate army was beaten. They overcompensate for this by inventing all sorts of rationales to show that the army was not beaten, but came to an end because of confederate politicians, or some other such reason.

[Nay]

20. You gotta be kiddin' me.

I'm surrounded here in Virginia.

[arcane1]

21. VA in the house!

born & raised in Richmond :hi:

[Tims]

22. Yes

I've worked with a few. Their main argument is state sovereignty and the belief in limited federal power. Though a few were definitely racists who simply used this argument to mask their racism, most were not. They were for the most part serious anti-government libertarians who saw government's only role as to provided for the national defense. They were also extreme property rights advocates and saw property ownership as the basis of all social structure and the motivation for all social contracts. Any time you would talk to these people for any length of time, the subject of property rights would always come up, and the perceived loss of these rights would be linked to virtually any of society's ills.

Many believed slavery was morally wrong and believed that most of the South at the time of the civil war also believed it to be wrong, but apposed the abolishment of slavery because they believed that the North's real motivation for the abolishment of slavery was not a moral one, but a way by which the rich norther industrialists could gain control of the South's wealth. They believed the Northern bankers and merchants could control the market for Southern agricultural products and keep prices low despite the Southern plantation owner's increased expenses after the abolishment of slavery. They would then be able to buy up these plantations as the Southerners went bankrupt. The fact is, this indeed did happen after the war.

[Sapphocrat]

23. Unfortunately, yes.

"States' rights, states' rights, states' rights..." like a broken record, until you're wishing whatever state he/she comes from had been allowed to secede.

Of course, when you apply the "states' rights" argument to, oh, say, gay marriage, things get very ugly. I know one S.C. who hit back with, "If this were the olden days, I'd be drawing a pistol from my petticoat and..."

I kid you not. That remark came from a real, live, self-described "Southern Belle."

Ask me sometime about my experience with one memorable Nazi sympathizer.

[laruemtt]

24. worked with a few

at a college in florida. all yankees were bad and should be sent back up north. could not bring them into the late 20th century for anything. strange.

[Devlzown]

25. Yes.

The older people on my dad's side of the family. They're almost all dead now. My great-grandmother was born in 1899 and she just died a few years ago. Both of her grandfathers fought for the South and she told me plenty of stories about the war that heard from them. She had her wits about her, so she wasn't full of romantic bullshit stories. People on my mom's side of the family never had much to say about the Civil War -- which is a little odd in the South. I found out that some of them fought for the North even though they were from Tennessee. So I had family shooting at each other over slaves that none of them owned or states' rights or whatever. I'm just glad they weren't better marksmen or I might not be here today.

[morgan2]

29. i believe they had every right to

succede if thats what their states decided.

[Bridget Burke]

61. They didn't "succede"

They failed.

[DrWeird]

32. Shit, there's a few on this board.

I wish they were as rare as nazi sympathizers.

[Skittles]

33. I remember one guy I worked with

who was involved in those ridiculous reenactments - gawd, I'd make fun of him until he was purple in the face. What a f***ing moron.
I remember him telling me to "get over" election 2000. I told him that was pretty rich, coming from a f***wit who still hadn't gotten over the freaking Civil War.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

35. Flags

Without even considering the merits or lack thereof of the Northern and Southern causes, the hard political reality is that the Confederate States of America was conquered and that nation was eliminated from the face of the earth.

I don't know what the history of allowing the Confederate symbology on state flags but I think this is ridiculous, like letting the swastika adorn government buildings in occupied postwar Germany. The symbolism is important, it encourages all the wrong kind of thinking. It's hard for me to imagine people like Lincoln and Grant allowing this so my assumption is that it arose subsequent to Reconstruction, but I don't really know.

BTW I am all for the freedom of individuals to display these symbols in their homes or cars or whatever from a free speech standpoint but as far as I am concerned they have no place in any level of government in this country.

[Skittles]

37. they might have the right to display their piece of shit flag

and I reserve the right to be sickened every time I see it.

[wuushew]

40. Its not some ancient tradition it dates from Eisenhower

The seemingly benign intent of honoring the centennial of the civil war has been perverted and continued on for forty+ years.

[SOteric]

39. Close. I used to work with a professor of history

who believed that the major motivating factors of the war had less to do with slavery and more to do with economy, industry, tariffs and the right to secede from the Union.

He often pointed out that to the brink of Lee's surrender, the south was actually winning the Civil War; and that economically, the south could have prospered without the northern states, but the northern states would have been unable to grow and prosper without the south.

It is a moot point at best, but one he greatly enjoyed mooting.

[Djinn]

43. that's pretty accurate isn't it?

isn't there that quote about if we could save the Union without freeing a single slave - it surely was about political/economic reasons over and above the abolition of slavery. That doesn't mean I'd be flying confederate flags if I was a US Southerner, for the same reason I wouldn't display a swastika, regardless of it's older meaning it has Nazi connotations now and always will - the Confederate flag regardless of the complexities of the real causes for the civil war, has pro-slavery connotatoins.

It's be interesting to see the freepy outrage and cries of "traitor" if a few lefty states wanted to secede over the gay marriage issue.

[knight_of_the_star]

45. He seems to be ignoring military reality

The South was nearly beat by the time Lee turned his sword over the Grant.

Sherman has just finished sacking Savannah and had already turned north into SC and was burning what ever could be put to torch. The Mississippi River was under solid control of the North via a fleet of gunboats and New Orleans, Tennessee was under Union control, the Southern coastline was solidly blockaded, and France and Britain were looking the other way as far as what the North was doing.

Yeah sure the South was winning the war. Depends on how you define "winning".

[GreyV]

42. I did...

Last year in Atlanta. I met this acquaintance of a friend I was visting. Anyways, we started talking about politics, race, history, etc. Then he started a thirty minute lecture on south, and how the confederacy was noble and just, and how liberals were trying to suppres and erase the southern heritage. I couldn't believe my ears. It's still 19th century down there.

[bilbobaggins]

48. Brush, thy stroke is broad

You met one guy in Atlanta who was a sympathizer and your judgement is that its the 19th century down there? I've lived in the south all my life until recently (just moved to Los Angeles) and lived in Atlanta for 7 years. I can say without a doubt that the confederate sympathizers are a dying breed. Yes, GA did vote out its governor but it was not over the flag. They simply do not make up enough of the electorate to change an election. Hell, after the state flag change there was a push to bring the old one back, and I can say that the majority, if not all of my friends and acquaintences were not confederate sympathizers. The talk shows, radio shows and newspapers were filled with people telling the confederates to get over it.

Let me just say that this thread has some incredibly intelligent discussions on the cause of the civil war, and that is why I come back for more. Vigorous and scholarly debate is fantastic. And then I have to read some of the most shallow, vain and niave posts about the south that make we weep for the Democratic Party. Before you pass judgement on the south and paint us all with a brush the size of Detroit, consider the following statement:

I hate Muslims. They are all religious fanatics who are living in the past. Muslims need to come into the 21st century. Everyone of them are backwards.

Now, replace the word "Muslim" with Southerns. All too often the discussions on the South degenerate to such statements. And these stereotypes are no more valid than those who feel all Muslims are violent religious fanatics.

And yes, I am well aware that there are a lot of racists living in the south. The south is just more up front about it. Go North and you find the same, its just whispered. Come out here to L.A. and you will discover racism just as rampant. Ask anyone in South Central or Compton. Or ask the Latinos, Mexicans, Cubans, Spanish, etc and see how they feel about the racism. Wake up! Its everywhere. Its insidious. The South no longer has a monopoly. Especially Atlanta.

Give it another couple of generations and the Confederate Flag will wane more in popularity. The South is growing up and has a ways to go, but it is no where near what it used to be. Take Stone Mountain, GA, just outside of Atlanta. This national park, the one with the stone relief carving of General Lee, was the national rebirth rallying point of the KKK. Now, people of color occupy the Mayor's office and many prominent government offices and is a wonderful place to live. A lot can change in 50 years.

southern rant over.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

49. Now substitute "elitist", Repuke code word for Northeastern Urban Liberal

you'll hear that plenty on DU, and then umpteen reasons why a "Yankee" can't win the Southern states.

[Djinn]

55. as a complete and total outsider

I think BilboBaggins AND RationalRose make very good points, I've noticed both the "southern = backwards" and the "elitist northeners" mythology.

It's hard but we all have a responsibility not to resort to generalisations - unless we're talking about the fake, tacky, vacuosity of Sydneysiders ;)

[GreyV]

59. Confederacy?

"Give it another couple of generations and the Confederate Flag will wane more in popularity."

Another couple of generations? What? The fact you said that is quite telling of the serious problem that the south has. I mean do you understand what you said?

Problems is, I've met many moderate and seriously progressive Muslims who have entered the 21st century just fine. I have yet to meet a progressive southerner who doesn't long for "the good ole days". Sure Taliban might have been stuck in the 12th century, but most of the south is still somewhere in the 19th.

Confederacy? Get over it, its been almost 150 years now.

[Anaxamander]

74. Yeah, okay. It's 19th century down here.

In Atlanta, a city that has a black female mayor, it's 19th century. Sure.

In Atlanta, where a multi-racial crowd gathered to protest Bush's visit on MLK day, it's 19th century. Okay.

By the same anecdotal token, let me say this: I went to Cleveland, Ohio during Xmas and had a conversation with a bar manager. He gave me a run-down of all the "black neighborhoods" I should avoid during my stay. Then he told me about the "white flight" to the suburbs. Apparently middle-class white folks wanted to live around "decent people."

So what did I think at that particular moment? "Man, it's 19th century up here."

No, I thought, "Man, this guy's a racist asshole."

[Malva Zebrina]

44. I once attended a re-enactment in Florida of the battle of Olustee

and I have to say it was a fantastic display. Thousands of people were strolling along the main throughfare all dressed in costume and there were hundreds of tents dedicated to selling civil war costumes and everything else related to the civil war. The women's costumes, most of them, were home sewn and they were great. I took at least fifty pictures of this event.

The actual battle re entactment was also spectacular.

I sat next to a man in the bleachers who was quite enthusiastic about the southern strategy. He obv iously recognized my accent an NOT a southern accent but we did have a nice conversation. Then he mentioned the thing on the forehead as a biblical sign of the Armageddon!! Well , we were polite, and pretended to not know a thing about it so he expounded further. We just smiled. :shrug:

On the whole thought, that display was really enjoyable.

[HootieMcBoob]

47. The Republican Party is full of them

Ever hear of Trent Lott?

[liberal72]

50. I am from Alabama . . . . .

and there are still a good many who look at it as something in our heritage to cheerish. If, as a southerner. you say you do not like the confederecy the number one question you get is "Aren't you proud of your heritage?" I've heard this many times from people when the issue of the confedercy or the confederate flag comes up. Also, many of them try to rationalize the issue of slavery by saying that only a small percentage of southerners had slaves. Of course they fail to realize that the southern society saw nothing wrong with slavery and that many southerners saw owning slaves as goal like many of us see owning our own house as a goal.

[trof]

66. Welcome to DU from a fellow Alabamian.

:hi:
There are quite a few of us here.

[Elwood P Dowd]

51. You guys sure are painting southerners with a broad brush

I was born in Alabama and have lived here 50 of my 57 years. I don't
really see all this confederate stuff you're talking about except in
certain rural areas and places like truck stops. I don't know a single
friend or family member that has even mentioned the confederacy in years.

Many southerners are defensive about this issue. In some cases, it's northerners that helped create the situation. I remember being in the
Army during Vietnam and driving from Maryland to New Jersy to visit an
Army friend. Stopped at McDonalds to get something to eat, and the
punk behind the counter asked where I was from. The words Alabama had
not been out of my mouth 2 seconds before he started his "we kicked your ass in the Civil War" crap. That was the first of many times northerners have thrown this in may face even though many of my ancestors were not even living in the States during the Civil War, and the ones that were living here were split on the issue.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

52. Well, my dad was in the Air Force in the '50s and early '60s

and was stationed down South. He was treated pretty badly by some folks down there. Being Catholic probably didn't help. So it goes both ways. Don't blame the Northerners for framing the argument, though.

BTW I have cousins in TN, GA, and SC and they never mention the Civil War. I think you're right that it's limited to the fringe.

[Elwood P Dowd]

53. Yep

Why both groups still bring up crap that happened 140 years ago is
beyond me. Why don't both sides bring up the Indian issue? They both
had a hand in that sad part of our history, and many famous Civil War generals did their part.

[justsam]

88. I was in the Army in the 50s

and the south losing the civil war caused more fights than i can remember, can anyone imagine what America would be like now if the south had won, my ancestors would still be on a reservation or would have been slaves also,

[LibDemAlways]

60. I went to high school in Southern California with one.

He had confederate flag bumper stickers all over his car and took great pride in being a "Rebel."
Also was involved in a nasty racial incident. He spray painted anti-white graffiti on the school walls to make it look like the work of blacks. A real piece of work.

He might have gone on to a position of prominence in the KKK, but instead he became a US Senator - George Allen (R) VA.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

62. as a born and raised southerner (now living in NY) i know plenty that do

[Loonman]

65. From time to time

I ask them why they support criminality and look up to war criminals, cads and murderers.

[anger is a gift]

68. Lived amongst them all my life!

I was born in Georgia, raised in the mountains of North Carolina, and currently live in the Virginia town where RE Lee and Stonewall Jackson are buried.

Surprisingly, this is the least Confed-sympathetic town I've ever lived in. That's not to say that there aren't any symps here; it's just that they aren't quite as virulent as they are farther South.

[WoodrowFan]

70. I live in Virgina, what do you think? *S*

Even in Northern VA we have them. UGH. The wierd thing is finding them in New England!

[Bridget Burke]

72. "It was really about States' Rights"

Back when Ken Burns' Civil War first ran, a friend of mine kept saying the war was not about slavery. I realize that secession & the Confederates firing on Fort Sumter were the immediate causes, but slavery was somewhere in the equation. He was otherwise an intelligent guy, but couldn't get over his family history. He wouldn't argue further--it was some kind of intellectual dead end.

Cragg Hines, the token liberal columnist for the Houston Chronicle, wrote a piece during an earlier Confederate flag controversy. It's no longer available online, but I practically memorized it. He identified himself as a fifth-generation Texan whose grandfather fought for the south; he was captured at the Battle of Vicksburg. Hines then went on to say that slavery was horrible reason to break up the Union and that Reconstruction did not go far enough. He pointed out that modern use of the Confederate battle flag began as backlash to the Civil Rights movement. His family pride & Southern pride were intact but he acknowledged the wrongs that were done.

My own family background is mostly fairly recent Irish immigrant. No historical controversies there!

[Nevernose]

77. I heard Howard Zinn speak once

He's a confederate sympathizer.

[Misinformed01]

90. This is ALWAYS ignored on DU

Note, not one DUer responded to you.

These threads are a joke-and this one should have been locked last night.

[mdmc]

80. Sure.... Many folks

have relatives that fought in the war. Many folks would prefer America to be a group to be joined, and left, if warrented, rather than a gang, that once you join, can never be left.

[On the Road]

89. In Middle School, I Had a History Textbook

in eastern NC which referred to "the War between the States", defended slavery as an economic necessity, and probably contained a whole litany of pro-Confederate arguments. (Note: I've been a Northerner most of my life.)

My personal opinion is that the country would have been better off if Lincoln had let the Southern states secede. The South would eventually have gotten rid of slavery. It would have taken a little longer, but it would have come from within, and it would have avoid the evils of reconstruction and the successful terrorism of the KKK. I believe it would have mitigated the racist character of the South ever since. And it would have removed the corrosive influence of the South on the policies of the rest of the country.

Anything that's imposed with force is resented, regardless of whether it's a noble cause.

[Shfreeman8]

91. No one has mentioned Robert Byrd?

Wasn't the senior senator from West Virginia a member of the klan?

[Courtney_P]

92. I am a Southerner

and yes, a lot of people tend to paint the South with a very broad brush. I am at once proud and sickened by southern heritage. I defend the states rights to fly the rebel flag even though I find what stands for to be repulsive. The issue is a tough nut to crack. Where is the line between freedom of speech and tolerance? I look at it this way: It is anyones right to believe what they believe and to speak their mind accordingly, but it is also my right to think they are biggoted wretches and tune them out accordingly.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

93. Yes, and he regrets it. Unlike a lot of Repukes who have NEVER apologized

How does this fit into the Confederate Sympathizer question, anyway?

[Yupster]

100. Republican office-holders in the Klan?

I don't know of any other congresscritter who was ever in the Klan but Byrd, Republican or Democrat. Please name a few of these unapologetic former klansmen in congress? I have always put Byrd in the disgusting class of former klansmen in congress all by himself. Let me know if I'm missing anyone, at least in the last 30-40 years.

[greekspeak]

95. YES!!

I go to school with one. "The war of Northern Aggression" was fought against the sovereign nation of the CSA by "yankee" Lincoln. He will cite constitution, law, history, the works to prove his point, which is superior simply because he believes it to be. He is in a MASTERS program (not history) and spouts this crap off all the time.

He is the Chimp base...an aggressive, testosterone-ridden Georgia WASP who thinks that his opinion is superior to all, that women are foolish creatures, and that shooting first and asking questions later is a proper reaction. He is also a practicing fundamentalist Baptist preacher who spouts off Bible verses from memory. Until I met him, I thought people like him were stereotypes, mere fancies. THEY ARE REAL!!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

99. Sounds like my old boss

he really disliked those of us from the Northeast-especially the women. He was still fighting the Civil War.

[liberalpress]

97. You don't live in the rural south, I'm guessing.

[quaker bill]

98. Yes

Remember Ashcroft once belonged to an organization with this theme. They are not all that hard to find in the south.