? How Do "Decent" Repubs Support a Lying Shrub?

[UTUSN]

My local wingnut punching bag and I have sparred endlessly re: Shrub. I have posed the following question to him repeatedly, which he repeatedly skirts:

Given that there REALLY ARE some "decent" Repugs out there somewhere, how do you reconcile your principles with Shrub's lying, greed, and all manner of scoundrelly activities, all the while that HE claims to be so religious?

I continued: This despite that you DECENT Repukes KNOW your boy is rotten to the moral core, that his "religion" is a sham, that he is a lordling (as in "drunk as a lord"), thinking he has a birthright to pillage and live off the public funds. There is PLENTY of smoke out there that pretty much shows the no-good Shrub was up to back then and continues to be.

You remind me of the old lady on the bus in '72, coming home from school, when I told her about NIXON's dirty tricks and she said, almost in stroke mode, "I JUST DON'T *BELIEVE* that President NIXON would DO things like that!"

********QUOTE********

The wingnut responded:

"Whatever he is, I believe Bush's religion is real, that he had a real conversion of the heart, a "come to Jesus" moment. I don't think the present Bush is the same man as the old drinking and hell-raising Bush."

*********UNQUOTE*******

I replied:
You keep skirting the issue, although here you are close to giving a direct answer to the eternal question of how DECENT Repukes can support a rotten-to-the-core person, your answer being that you BELIEVE his religion is real. You have FAITH. So, it's just like the old lady with NIXON, eh.

But let's take Shrub's "real religion" another step: If this person did, indeed, have a real ephiphany-------------------HOW does his "real religion" allow him to LIE and LIE and LIE and pursue policies of GREED and VENGEANCE and REVENGE---NOW???? What the **** kind of religion is THAT?

As for not "drinking" or "hell-raising" NOW--------this is immaterial. Like LIMBO, he has not really dropped the arrogance or done the humility that is necessary for real recovery. This is known as a "dry drunk." Just somebody who is not physically doing the chemical abuse for now, but who continues the destructive personality characteristics.

What kind of "real religion" allows for all of this immorality?

[Bandit]

1. It is a Christian thing. They wouldn't understand it.

:shrug:

[marie123]

2. we go over to DU

I still believe Bush's religion is real. It is common for a reformed alcoholic or drug user to turn to god to help get their monkey of their back so to speak

His religion didn't allow him to lie, his revenge for Saddam clouded his mind and thinking.

But he did lie to us and worse he is destroying us. He is taking away our security, our health care our homes our lives!

so to answer your question again we come over here for help and support. Trust me it was not easy, but more will come

[catzies]

3. My favorite "decent Repub" is coming around...

We talked for hours last night at my kitchen table and killed a couple of six packs (just to watch them die) and he said some of the most encouraging things I've heard in years.

He's GOP through-and-through, but not *this* GOP. He's very secular for starters and doesn't like how the Religious Right stole his party from him. He admits to having to turn off FoxNews now as it stresses him out too much.

Now, I'm not going to end this by saying "I'm convinced Shrub is through! Another GOP wingnut says he cannot vote for him!" but my friend's evolution pleases me greatly.

[pacifictiger]

4. It hard to win over people who have

become blinded by the teacher instead of the true message. That in many circles is called a cult.
Personally I like my signature quote from Thomas Jefferson.

[sendero]

5. When you have a religion....

... that teaches you that there is basically no consequence for sin as long as you declare Jesus to be your savior, well you can hardly be surprised when a lot of people take that literally as a "free pass".

[petrock2004]

22. i agree

it's just a shame that some really good people have turned into these "irresponsible christians."

they feel that since they're already "saved," it become unnecessary to do things like... donate to charity? teach tolerance? vote with their conscience?

but it's not just a christian thing - irresponsible people are everywhere. some people think, instead of god or jesus, the government will save them, so they shirk their personal responsibility. some people think it's money. for others it's their parents...

if we all lived in a time when we had to grow our own food and to write we had to carve into stone or hand-make paper... things would probably be a lot different.

then again, if we all lived in a time like that, we wouldn't survive past 30, and where's the fun in that? :)

[Skittles]

6. these are the republicans who put their party above their country

it is a disgrace. And Ann Coulter says WE are treasonous ???

[T Wolf]

7. there are no 'decent' repukes

and the sooner we realize that and stop trying to appeal to them, the better off we all will be.

Recognize the reality that they ARE the enemy. You do not placate or try and convince the enemy of the error of their ways, especially when they have the power. You fight them in every way possible, using every weapon you can.

The only hope we have is that the repugs are defeated and consigned to the trash heap of history as soon as possible. The longer they hold power, the more difficult it will be to reverse the damage they have done. I question whether it is even possible to undo what they have done to this country, and the world.

Like we say in the environmental movement, extinction is forever. Too many people have died and too much irreversible damage has been done to this planet by the policies of the Greedy Ol' Party. It is time to fight back and save what we can.

[marie123]

9. the mind

what a terrible thing to waste.

Your post only fuels the fire. We are not the enemy, just Americans trying to make like you. We want the same thing as you. Our mistake was to believe in someone who did not have our best interest in mind.

You, however, are doing just what the government wants. They don't want us to unite. They want to keep us separate and angry at one another, so they can do their thing.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

11. Have you considered re-registering as an Independent or Dem?

I agree that we have to unite-there are a lot of angry conservatives out there who are BULLSHIT about Bush's free-spending ways. New England Republicans-who tend to be more liberal than a lot of Southern Democrats-should think twice about where their party is going. Do you really want to be associated with neo-cons and fundamentalist Christians who shit all over the Constitution?

[marie123]

12. great question

not sure what I am going to do.

I could never become a democrat. Reason being is they are the same as republicans only they love to tax us. Same shit different name.

I am thinking of becoming an independent. I do wish the green party would get bigger and stronger cause they are the change this country needs. I was so counting on Dean to pull us threw

[Kathy in Cambridge]

14. I think the 2000 election has taught us there IS a difference between them

I voted Nader in 2000-I truly believed that both parties were big money and could give a shit about us average folks. I believed that and did not realize what a threat this new breed of Republican (neo-conservative) was to our country and way of life.

the tax cuts that Bush put through-which benefit the wealthy-would never have been proposed by the Dems. Bush & Co. want to do away with taxes on UNEARNED income-which, of course, benefit the rich. Meanwhile, payroll taxes are going through the roof.

If you are a Dean supporter, consider re-registering so you can vote in the CT primary (super Tuesday, March 2nd). Or vote for one of the Republican candidates running against Bush.

[marie123]

15. thanks!

will do

[ProfessorGAC]

17. You're Misguided

The difference between the R's and D's is not that Dems like to tax us. The difference is that the Dems tend to believe that the country can support the slightly higher tax load without impinging on economic growth (and the mathematics shows they're right) while the Republicans just want to spend money they don't have. They're excusing it by suggesting that lower taxes means a better economy and the mathematics proves them wrong.

It's not a matter of taxation. It's a matter of spending and the Dems tend to be less willing to spend money they don't have! Even FDR resisted the Keynsian approach for 6 years and only took that tack when all other attempts either failed to generate economic recovery or saw those that worked declared unconstitutional.

The highest rate of borrowing in U.S. history ALL occurred under the last 5 Republican presidents. And, despite the rhetoric to the contrary, they did not all have Democratic Congresses. As a matter of fact, under the terms of those presidents, the Senate was Republican more often than it was Dem.

So, the differences between the two parties are not as simple or straighforward, nor as limited, as you suggest. But, the last thing that would define the differences is the willingness to impose taxes.

The last time a Repub president lowered taxes, EVERY STATE IN THE UNION WITH A STATE INCOME TAX RAISED THOSE RATES! 98% of homeowners in this country saw increases in real estate taxes! 88% of all tollway fees rose in the 80's! The difference in willingness to tax is that Dems tax income and reveal their intentions to do so. Repubs raise taxes on the sly and make folks like you think they're lowering them.

Do some research before you reject half the potential government for a reason so easily refutable and so lacking in substance.
The Professor

[Zero Gravitas]

16. no

Ordinary Americans who disagree with us are NOT the enemy. The enemy is Bush and the people he represents, the corporations who put power and money before democracy and the best interests of the entire country, the PNAC fascists and the religious fanatics who want to replace secular law with their personal interpretation of Christianity.

Many if not most Republicans are decent people who have been manipulated and lied to and who have been hoodwinked by propaganda, but increasingly they are beginning to wake up. They have been poisoned by vitriol similar to yours that makes ordinary Americans who disagree with them (i.e. US) the "enemy".

I hope we can go back to the days when Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and liberals can respectfully disagree on policy but share the same underlying goals of making life better for all. We need to seep away the hate created by the likes of Limbaugh and Coulter and the sheer greed that enables the Bushes.

[Kimber Scott]

37. I believe the Administration is Manipulating the Christians

You talk about these guys having their own interpretation of Christianity and in my opinion the only interpreting they do is when they are trying to manipulate the people who seem easiest to manipulate. Organized religion teaches people they must follow someone else's interpretation of "life" and its "meaning." They believe someone else knows what's best for them, someone else knows what's right and wrong. So, it stands to reason the more religious one is, the more likely one is to follow the "leader." Cheney, Rove, Perle, Rumsfeld, and Bush all use this trait to their best advantage. I don't know anyone who could call any of these men "spiritual." It's all a sham, a game.

[x-g.o.p.er]

18. The enemy is not other Americans

TWolf,

I so disagree with that. I am an ex-repub, and I want the same things for my family that you want for yours--

good schools for your kids (if you have any)

a truly free society that has a government of the people, not the insider and lobbyist

a clean and healthy environment

safe cities and towns to live in

A good job so I can support my family, and a prosperous society that will be better off when I hand it over to my kids than when my parents handed it over to me.

My God, both the extreme left and extreme right are so blinded by hate for the other, that it seems like there will be no chance to elect someone who is a truly good and decent person who has the best interest of the country in mind. Not their political party, or their particular interst group. Jump on the freeper site, they think the media is liberally biased.

The extreme left thinks the right is the greatest threat to peace--they think the extreme left is. It goes on and on. Every bad thing the extreme left thinks about the right, well, ditto vice-versa. It is absolutely insane.

The only hope we have is that the great uninterested masses of people become informed, and impassioned, and start taking back our country to what it is supposed to be:

Government of the PEOPLE, by the PEOPLE, for the PEOPLE

I kindly ask you to read my post in the GD room, "Why a former Republican is voting Democrat", and then tell me how we are so different.

Thanks

[T Wolf]

28. I read your postings there and have not changed my mind.

In general, repugs (ex or not) want theirs and to hell with everyone else. That is the basic difference between us and them (you?). Libs believe that the welfare of all of society is the goal, whereas cons believe that there is no group responsibility. Rather, "rugged individualism" is rewarded. Of course, most of the powerful in your party were "born on third base and believe they hit a triple."

Your posts in the other thread continued to defend the POS squatting in Al Gore's house. The truth is that he lied and thousands of people have died. And continue to die.

I am always wary of people who have "revelations" and come to see a new "truth." It seems that you were perfectly happy to go along with the program until your own ox was gored in the aftermath of your Gulf service. Then, it's "I deserve better and I'm going to get it." Cognitive dissonance sets in and you find it a little difficult to continue "drinking the kool-aid" while fighting the system you so recently defending.

A truer conversion would have involved a personal sacrifice on your part. That is, giving up a benefit or privilege you enjoy because it is not right that you have it.

I would be the first to admit that liberalism is not perfect. But it is a damn sight closer than conservatism. And, in the battle to stop the cons, some of the values that we libs hold may have to be put on hold, temporarily. I'm not Gandhi. Or Jesus. Or someone who is willing to give up because fighting back means doing some unpleasant things.

Playing fair only works if both sides play fair. Turning the other cheek only gets you two slapped cheeks. And in this battle, a lot more than red cheeks is at stake. I want my daughters to have a chance at a full life, in a free country, on a healthy planet.

And I work for that. By whatever means necessary.

[Bunny]

29. x-g.o.p.e.r.

You are absolutely right. People of good will can share the same goals and aspirations, but disagree on how to get there. It doesn't make either right or wrong, just different.

So much of the nasty comments made on DU about Republicans (I've made them myself, I'm not pointing fingers) refer to the extreme far right, religiously obsessed wing of the Republican party. We are sick and tired of them trying to impose their world view on us, in America of all places, the land of the TRULY free (at least that's how it was set up).

I think the majority of DUers believe that there are Righteous Republicans, good people that we may disagree with on policy but share the common goal of wanting to make our country better.

Please don't get discouraged, stay here, read up and get to know us. We are not YOUR enemy!

[MrsMatt]

31. we all come to the truth by our own paths

I have family members and good friends who are republicans, and they are good people, albeit misguided in their political affiliations. I respect their right to their position, even when I don't agree, and demand the same from them.

I've always felt that tolerance was the greatest virtue that liberalism possessed.

Inflammatory rhetoric gets us nowhere.

[Malva Zebrina]

8. He may or may not have stopped drinking

but has done nothing about the rotten narcissistic personality that he was born with. He is still the same personality with, or maybe without, the booze.

Whatever he does, he knows he will be "bailed out" again. He well never be challenged on any of his crimes. I do believe he has committed crimes. HE will be bailed out of anything--he knows it--his arrogance shows it--and he will triumph over justice and the law because he knows he is entitled. Also, a whole lot, a whole lot of money ready to do so.

[jansu]

33. DRY DRUNK!

He is what the psychiatrists call a DRY DRUNK. (If you believe he is not drinking now. Although, I question the Pretzel incident happening to a sober person). They have all of the problems, and sometimes worse problems, than people who are still drinking. Research it. Also, keep an eye on his feet. He sometimes drags them.

[leesa]

10. It's a religion of convenience. You declare yourself "saved" and

then do whatever the hell you want. When someone confronts you on your un-Christian-like behavior, you come back with "No one can see what's in another's heart", or "good deeds are irrelevent, it's what's in his heart and he says he has given himself to Christ, who are you to judge", etc... It's cheap religiousity. It's an excellent con-job by the GOP propaganda machine being perpetrated on people who are extremely gullible and very lazy.

[UTUSN]

13. Such Wingnuts Sound Like Fanny Brice Singing "My Man"

<snip>

http://www.absolutelyric.com/a/view/Barbra_Streisand/My_Man/

Written by I.Bibo, L.Woods & M.Yvain

He’s not much for looks
And no hero out of books, it’s my man
Two or three girls has he
That he likes as well as me, but I love him...

Oh, my man, I love him so,
He’ll never know
All my life is just despair, but I don’t care
When he takes me in his arms
The world is bright, all right...
What’s the difference if I say
I’ll go away
When I know I’ll come back on my knee someday

For whatever my man is,
I am his forever more

<snip>

[The Night Owl]

19. Exactly! Here is proof of what you say...

"I mean, {Bush} could make terrible mistakes and come out of it. It doesn't make any difference what he does, good or bad, God picks him up because he's a man of prayer and God's blessing him..." - Pat Robertson

Yes, he really said that.

There you have it. According to one of the most well known Christian leaders in America, Bush can do good or bad and God will still bless him.

What is Robertson's message? As long as you believe in Christ, you can be as evil as you like and God will still bless you!

[CalebHayes]

20. They don't

[StlMo]

21. Anyone who supports Bush is not decent.

.

[ComerPerro]

23. Two choices

They are either really blind to what is really going on, or they are so fucking sick that they know what is going on and they support it wholeheartedly.
Most of the time its a little of both.

[ale81]

24. EX Repub checking in

Not all who were originally for him are now. Me included.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

26. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

There is a lot of good information here at your disposal. It seems that a lot of traditional Republicans are disgusted with Shrub-they put their country before party affiliation! Good to hear! Maybe we can get our country back.

[UTUSN]

34. RR, Thanks for Being so...well, RATIONAL. n/t

[myrna minx]

30. Welcome to DU.

:hi: My mom is an old school republican who thinks critically. I have tremendous respect for her. I am about as liberal as they come, yet we agree to disagree on many subjects in a respectful manner. Although her Christian worldview connects her primarily with the Democratic philosophy, she is still a republican. She is the kind of republican that the wing-nuts would consider a liberal. I love my mom. She is the one who taught me to have respect for all humanity, and that all people have the right to live in dignity. Her worldview is oil to water when it come to bu$h.

[calimary]

35. Yippee! Another one! Welcome, new friend!

Your very first post - and it's a good one. A welcome one, just like yourself. Glad to have you here! Even better considering your change of heart.

Blessings!

And by the way, I notice there are numerous new arrivals here, even just today. What's up? Not that I'm looking a gift horse in the mouth. DAMNED glad to have you guys here, all you new people!

[Lugnut]

39. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[indepat]

25. Is it they will support anyone who will implement their agenda, lock,

stock and barrel, no matter what baggage they bring to the office for that really does not matter?

[Hammie]

27. It is better than the alternative?

Clinton wasn't all that Liberal, but no one questions how "Decent" Dems could've supported him? If he's out guy, we support him, same for them, even if they have to hold their noses to do it.

[slater71]

32. Me to.

Long winded conversation with a fellow worker Pub. he finally said that he has to vote republican and that`s it and any details don`t matter.

[rhino47]

36. My Hubby has been a Repuke for 30 years.

Hes a devout Catholic.To make this clear he is a very Christian man.He helps without judging.He believes that some of the most religious people he has met are junkies,poor,people that have nothing in most peoples eyes.We have had many debates over the years
about politics.Basically I am for progressive social changes.Hes for
smaller government and fiscal responsibility.However.Then came the shrub.My husband just last night spent hours hand writing letters
to get out the vote.Yes for Wes Clark.How did this change come about?
First thing was the reading to kids as the towers fell.That was the first crack in his belief in this miserable failure of a administration.Dan was rather concerned over the "God Appointed Me" of shrubs.It highly offended him as a Christian.Shrubs cutting veteran benefits,the war in Iraq,endless useless spending ,halliburton,the "prescription drug" program,Kyoto the list is endless for my husband.Its really amazing because he is as pissed of if not even more then I am.The stunning thing to me to is his GOP coffee meet up
on Monday mornings where he meets 14 other repukes.Only one will vote for shrub again.Its pretty bad (in their eyes not mine) when a group of middle aged white conservative men fondly wish for Clinton days.He hopes all the repukes stay home.Because shrub has pissed off basically ever branch of the repukes.

[kodi]

38. they are loyal to the party that represents their principles

just like we are.

it might be justified to wonder what in the world makes republicans tick, but in this attempt it is useless to lean towards dehumanizing them as persons who lack basic decency.

there are 50 million republicans in america and the overwhelming number are not anne coulter or rush limbaugh clones.

when we on the left decry republican voters as "lacking decency or brains enough to look out for themselves," we set in motion a visceral response to those charges that is not easily countered with logic.

liberals are quick to applaud a millionaire as a hero who is against repealing the estate tax and who is willing to sacrifice a part of his own wealth for the common good, but we admonish as a fool a $9/hr maid who votes republican because she feels that the GOP policies are right even though like the liberal millionaire she herself will sacrifice for her political beliefs.

our political adversaries are humans, just like us. no more, no less.