I'm afraid the classwar is coming...

[liberalpress]

We just had dinner with two of the nicest people in the world. They are die-hard Republicans, and we knew better. But being the season that is the topic of politics rolled around. We should have changed the topic, we didn't, harsh words were exchanged and a fun evening turnd foul in a hurry.

But the argument did give me a bit of insight. I could tell as they were defending their position about the poor being poor because they want to be, and anybody who wants a job can have one, etc., etc., that there is a bit of classism involved. (I pulled myself by bootstraps, so anyone can). But as we argued and they became angry there was also an undercurrent of fear. What we said couldn't possibly be true, buecause if it was, that would mean the world, which they'd never really seen beyond their own experience contained horrible, evil things. And that would be unfair. And frightening. And sickening.

Sometimes (a hard lesson to learn)it is best not to burst the bubbles of those too deeply inside. After of lifetime of in the bubble, the harsh realities of truth can kill you.

I hope, in a few days, when things calm down, we find we haven't lost some friends. But we may have. And more of us may as November comes and battlelines are drawn. Each set of beliefs is fighting for their very lives. There can only be one winner. The body count will be enormous.

[lcordero]

1. too late

we've been losing the class war for years. That's why America has turned into a caste system.

[Lorien]

17. We lose because

only the wealthy are actually capable of waging class warfare. If workers get up and walk away from their jobs or join unions to try to gain some sort of control, their jobs will be sent overseas or given to Bush's* new best friends, the illegal immigrants. This has become a country of the wealthy, by the wealthy, and only for the wealthy.

[dpibel]

53. I beg to differ

So, I think, would your avatar.

You have described the slavery of fear. If freedom is defined, as it is in modern America, as the freedom to choose a Ford instead of a Chevrolet, but you must be fearfully tied to the job those kind rich folk "give" you, then it's not much freedom at all.

Not all jobs can be outsourced (although many can). There are 300 million Americans. Legalizing a few million folk who cross the border to do stoop labor and keep clean the houses and lawns of LA and Houston and Phoenix could not offset the effects of a general strike.

Most importantly: They can't outsource consumption. That's where the American propagandized analytic breaks down. We've been trained to see it as a question of losing our jobs. In reality, if we all stocked up on a few weeks of food and walked off our jobs and out of the stores we'd see our true power. And I know that some people can't buy two weeks ahead on food. That's why some of us would have to help our neighbors.

Americans are trained from birth that they have no power beyond a quadrennial jaunt to the ballot box and no freedom other than the choice of brands (which freedom is vociferously defended by advocates of one or another).

In fact, we do power the whole economic engine. We provide the sweat and the skills and we give all the money back.

It's axiomatic that those who rule do so only with the consent of the ruled. Once that consent is gone, rule breaks down.

Don't think it's possible? Check out the Seattle general strike. For that matter, check out Ghandi's salt march, and the other instances where Ghandi convinced great masses of people to simply withdraw their consent.

The odd thing about this is, when you suggest this sort of economic action, people say, "But people will lose their jobs! People will suffer."

Guess what. People are losing their jobs. People are suffering.

People should do something. Better, people should do nothing. What're they going to do? Send out the National Guard to make people shop?

Do I think this will ever happen? Not in fear-based America. Do I think it would work? I surely do.

This is not a precise quote, but it's close, from Giovanni Ettor, one of the IWW organizers who was jailed for his work in the textile strikes:

"All the workers need to do to bring things to a halt is cross their arms."

[Jose Diablo]

55. The powerful and wealthy need 2 things from us

They need our work. As you mentioned above about a national strike. It would indeed shake the foundation the powerful and wealthy stand on.

Second, they need our obedience. Peaceful, non-violent civil disobedience in regards to that "free-speech" zone rule will force them to resort to violence to enforce an unjust law. As Gandhi said, this will hurt them when they realize the unjust law they are defending.

Denial of service and denial of obedience will rock this corrupt system to its core. And in its ashes a better system emerge.

[Bandit]

65. Everything you say is true but you left out the most important factor

An Organizer. India had Gandhi an extremely Charismatic leader who won the trust of the people. If we don't have a leader to stand up for the people and convince them of the truth of your assertions then we are doomed to failure. The Right-wing controls the media and the propaganda. It will take a very special person to unite the masses into action. Al Franken isn't that person. Neither is Senator Kerry. Dean has possibilities. So does Kucinich. I'm sure there is someone out there in America that would fit the bill and I truley wish they would step forward.

[dpibel]

77. Be your very own vector

Rats carry fleas that carry the plague.

Wrong thinkers carry the ideas that help their neighbors wake up.

I agree that it would be wonderful for a charismatic leader to emerge.

I refuse to believe that it's the only way. I think people in the USofA are very uneasy and very unhappy and they don't know why. Start pointing out that it could be because of the way the system works: You're told you can only be happy if you buy stuff; you can only buy stuff if you show up for work on their terms at their pay; once you buy the stuff, you're still not happy. Suggest that there's a velvet trap here somewhere.

Ghandi's India didn't have the internet, the growing organizational power of which is demonstrated by the Dean movement and MoveOn.org, amongst others. Ghandi's core support came from the bottom castes who were, by and large, less educated (albeit also less propagandized) than the average American.

I think a leaderless mass movement is much more possible now than it was in Ghandi's, or even Rev. King's, day.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

95. Also, movements usually start out as leaderless and the leaders come when

needed. There is a book called, "The Soul of a Citizen," where the writer points out that people met after church for years in the civil rights movement and discussed their common problems, then gradually started to stand up for themselves. MLK Jr. came along to lead the movement after it had been started by ordinary people.

[LizW]

103. I love that book

I need to find my copy and read it again.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

106. It was a good book, wasn't it?

I can't remember the author's name.

[Lorien]

114. Colonial India

was an entirely different world than what we have in America today. The Press covered Ghandi's march to make salt, and many in the British press felt he was courageous and right to do what he was doing. They shamed the British government by showing the truth. Our press sweeps the truth aside in favor of entertainment and propaganda.Our media is PART of the problem, not an aid to resolving the problem, as they were for the oppressed of India (and even more recently in South Africa).The media keeps our population complacent too-even my unemployed associates often blame Clinton and welfare mothers for their current situation because they refuse to listen to anything but the incessant right wing voice that rings throughout our airwaves. How do we inspire such people to rise up and take back their country? Leaflets and bullhorns? There's a general consensus out there that the internet is just a place for wacky conspiracy theorists-so how do we get past that? And where IS our Ghandi and MLK? (I've asked this question many times on DU) How can a leader arise when the media so efficiently renders them impotent (witness the "Dean scream")?

I would love to share your optimistic opinion that WE can be the ones to "wage class warfare" (a very bad choice of words when making any comparison to MK Ghandi, since what he achieved was done through passive resistance-"war" was never a term he used for for his actions)
but between globalization and the media, i see little hope for it. As Paul Krugman wrote recently; can a nations economy function solely on the sale of luxury goods and military hardware? I guess we'll soon find out.

[yorgatron]

2. you should try to maintain the friendship anyway

that way,when the class war DOES begin they will unwittingly let you into their house so you can take all their stuff! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :evilgrin:

[Sugarbleus]

33. ROFLMAO.... n/t

[lastknowngood]

3. class warfare has been declared by the rethuglins

they have been murdering and raping the working class for over 75 years.

[corporatewhore]

25. but dont forget the Dems did allow nafta wto and things lke welfaredeform

[Sugarbleus]

36. "Brother, can you spare a dime........."

CW:
You are sooooooooooooooooooooooo right! I voted for Clinton. Then he guts welfare INSTEAD of amending it in a positive way...what a slap in the face. I thought he was gonna get some worthwhile healthcare things into the pipeline also. NOT.
I am increasingly angry with democrats these days. They seemto be more like the nicer/"liberal" arm of the republican party! Business as usual.
I'm glad to see people talking about the class warfare issues here as it confirms to me what I've been thinking for a number of years.
The republinoids I run across are usually the working class folks that think conservatism is good because it will cut their TAXES!! Oh wow, that's a great reason to NOT understand the history of their party and just blindly mark the ballot. Geeesh

[mdmc]

45. Makes sense

:kick:

[bluestateguy]

4. A quote for you

"I am not interested in avoding class warfare. I am interested in winning it."

bluestateguy

[displacedtexan]

5. Send them a VHS or DVD copy of "Metropolis."

Might do them good.

[Indiana_Dem]

6. I know....anymore I don't bring it up unless they bring it up....

it's kind of like bringing up religion. It will hit them sooner or later. Wait until Social Security starts to wain in about 20 years. Those who are more blessed with money and substantial savings may be fine right now but I bet they're also banking on Social Security and Medicare as at least one leg of their financial retirement table. If things don't turn around soon and we don't get this deficit paid down, all these programs will be gone or we'll all have some pretty high taxes to pay and that includes retirees with money!!!

[Snappy]

7. Along these lines

I have been thinking that there is a polarization now in America that has been pushed to a confronation by Dubya and the Neo Fascists. In some countries this devide has actually lead to actual violent action. Another term of the Neo Fascists may lead to an actual revolution in America. There are a lot of extreme groups and a lot of real pissed off people now.

The blue collar conservs may just see how the Neo Fascists are driving them down. The Working Class may just revolt when they finally see how they are being decimated and assulted. It isn't the liberal or leftist intellectuals that will cause this revolution. As in most revolutions, the intellectuals point out the stink and the Working Class does the on the street work. Sure, there are a few intellectuals that may also be Working Class and be out there, as well.

The American people will take a lot of abuse from their Govt. incl Congress, such as lying to them and duping them into wars that mostly their young and Middle Class and Poor fight but if they see that their livelyhood is threatened they may shake off the apathy and fight back.

[blurp]

8. Class wars always seem to end up ugly

The history of all hitherto successful societies is the history of class cooperation.

[Frank Rose]

9. I wonder why some people think that when

we are divided into 'haves' and 'have nots' they will be in the 'have' group? When the top 5% are ruling over the bottom 95%, it will only be a matter of time before the top 1% decide they want more power and money. I realy feel sorry for the 'bubble people' because one day they are going to get blindsided by those they looked up to.

[liberalpress]

10. I agree...

...and that, I think is their unspoken, bloodcurdling fear

[Jackpine Radical]

12. 50% of the people think they're in the top 20%.

Well, those numbers aren't exactly right, but I did see some statistics sort of like that somewhere in the last year. Maybe it was 20% that think they're in the top 5% or something.

[JanMichael]

13. 19% thought they were in the top 2%.

This was about three years ago. I hope that number has changed.

[Strelnikov_]

93. 19% Thought They Were In The Top 1%

I have also heard 20% in top 1% thrown out in discussions, maybe just round off.

"During the most recent presidential election a Time magazine-CNN poll asked voters whether they were in the top 1 percent of income earners. Nineteen percent reported that they were, and another 20 percent said that they expected to be there one day."

So we have 39% of the population thinking they are, or will be, in the top 1%. Thus the 'politics of aspiration' that I feel explains the ascendancy of the greed based body politic.

Some statistics, not perception:

The top 1% of Americans own as much wealth as the bottom 95% percent.

Source: Edward N. Wolff, "Recent Trends in Wealth Ownership, 1983-1998," April 2000.

In the fifteen years between 1983 and 1998, the bottom 40% of Americans saw their wealth drop 76%. (In other words, they lost three-quarters of their wealth in 15 years).
In the same time period, the richest 1% saw their wealth increase by 42%.

The richest 40%, excluding the richest 1%, saw their wealth increase roughly 20%.

[Beam Me Up]

19. Aren't we all "bubble people"?

I understand what you are saying and agree with you. There are many well off people who think things can only get better for them--and they could be wrong.

But as I see it, it is only a matter of "degree". I'm a working class person--have been all my life. My parents were working poor. But still, I know that I live in a "reality bubble" that is DEPENDANT on a lot of things. For example, dependant upon there being adequate supplies of oil and natural gas; dependant upon those supplies being affordable for the manufacture and delivery of all the many products I consume in my "ordinary" daily life. This ordinary life is not "high on the hog" compared to many people in our country, far from it, but it still depends almost entirely on electricity and oil. I do not grow my own food (however, I did grow up on a farm and know something about how to). I do not make my own clothing (although my mother did make some of our clothing when I was a child). I did not construct the house I live in--and even if I had, I would not have manufactured the materials from which it was made. We live in a "reality bubble" that is a complex network of dependencies.

It is time we began to really consider what the glue is that holds our "reality bubble" together. Clearly, it is no longer the rule of Constitutional law.

In other words the class war has already begun. To a lot of folks, it still doesn't look like one, but it is and has been for quite a while. Some of us are just BEGINNING to figure out who the 'other' is.

In the future, if there ever are questions asked about how this all got started, we have 9/11 to point to. We did not start this war. Neither did the arabs. It was not one of us who stood up and broadcast on national television: "You are either with US, or you are with THEM, the terrorists."

[brokensymmetry]

71. Great insight!

And it bears repeating:

We live in a "reality bubble" that is a complex network of dependencies.

[camero]

11. Kinda hard to pull yourself up by your bootstraps

When you have been cut off at the knees.

[candy331]

14. Friends don't let friends remain ignorant

without a challenge to their minds.

[camero]

15. here here

I agree.

[Kanary]

35. Another great saying!

This belongs on a bumpersticker!

edited to say I'm referring to the "It's hard to pull yourself up by the bootstraps when you've been cut off at the knees"

Kanary, who relates to this totally

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

16. I had a random person at a bar start talking about "class war"

actually it surprised me. We were just randomly chatting and they started in about unemployment, Enron, and "class war" - their exact words. They seemed rather conservative, too, which surprised me.

[bloom]

18. In the forum with the candidates today

where "real" people were talking about their problems - esp. jobs leaving the country ( I was "downsized" recently as well) - it occurred to me that there just may not be any good answers. I felt like some of the candidates were thinking the same thing. The president is not going to be able to solve everyones problems.

Yes, there are things that can be done to make things better. But it is rather overwhelming.

[Beam Me Up]

22. Making things better. . .

First we have to identify what the PROBLEM is. What IS the problem?

It is difficult to fix a social problem when, to a VERY large extent, the PROBLEM is the social SYSTEM itself. WOW! How do you go about fixing THAT?

There were decisions that should have and could have been made over thirty years ago that would have brought our nation, slowly, peacefully to a new world vision. However, that didn't happen. The visionaries who looked forward and predicted our current situation were either assassinated out right or were simply not given forums that would allow their ideas to become either policy or social convention. The consequence is the world we have today: a nightmare of fascist power funded by the great wealth of international trade implemented through increasingly sophisticated technologies.

Kucinich is one of the living visionaries who understands some of this. He knows what has to change (in both directions of the class scale). It is unfortunate that he can not be given any attention--his ideas could catch fire. If they did, we COULD have a genuine "revolution" in this country. But, of course, that is the one thing "nobody" wants.

[Kanary]

32. "But it is rather overwhelming"

I believe that was the right wing master plan. Start so many fires, on so many fronts, and let them build unattended and almost unnoticed, so that when people are finally gasping from the smoke, nobody knows which fire to start with.

Our Dems and liberals were all asleep at the wheel, and involved in their own power-brokering, and let it happen.

It's going to take a lot of concerted organization and effort to confront it all.

Are we up to it?

Kanary

[bobbieinok]

97. agree!!!!! agree!!!!!!! the mast er plan

[Tinoire]

20. Class & Religious. It's going to get very ugly. n/t

[Ksec]

21. About poor

Theres alot of poor people who will never get out of poverty. Repubs pretend anyone can do it. Its a way to justify the rich getting tax breaks because someday "we will be rich too."

That attitude toward the less fortunate pisses me off terribly. I will beat any man who says this to my face, literally beat his ass.

[Kanary]

37. Thanks, Ksec, for being in my corner!

I've been called a "parasite", and would have given anything to have someone there in my corner at the time who wold speak up. It's very demoralizing when your so-called "friends" don't have the gumption to speak up to stuff like that.

Kanary

[Sugarbleus]

38. I feel your rage Ksec..

I remember those sentiments about .. 'I wanna be rich too, someday'

I must confess that I'd like to sock a nose or two once in awhile also. }(
Everyone thinks being RICH( filthy, stinking, more money than God rich) is the only goal in life. I ask, then what?

[Sapphocrat]

47. I'll back you up, Ksec...

As one who went from poor to almost-rich to very poor, I can testify that all the hard work in the world can be vaporized in a nanosecond by one bad break.

Or several bad breaks.

[BiggJawn]

23. Don't kid yourselves. when it comes, it won't be just ReTHUGS...

...Who feel somebody's steel.

Some of you will "get it" from people like me, just like I might "get it" from some pissed-off guy trying to raise a family on 3 part-time jobs.

I don't think the mobs will stop to check voter registration cards before they slaughter some of us.

To somebody who dreams of 40 kilobucks, 80 thousand look pretty rich

[corporatewhore]

24. 80,000 is pretty rich

[BiggJawn]

59. We know that. But some think $80,000 is "Middle-Class"

Right here on this board, even.

You CAN be well-off and not lose sight of your fellow man, but the point I'm making is that when the mobs come into your neighbourhood, or stop you and the family in your Volvo, they're NOT gonna care that you sent 5 kilobucks to Moveon.org or a Grand to Dennis.

[lostnfound]

62. So? What conclusion are you reaching? nt

[GreenPartyVoter]

63. $100,000 and under not rich... seriously!!

My folks, a special ed teacher and a postal rural route carrier, make about $100,000 a year. But old debts and mortgages (they put my bro and me through school, bless their hearts) keep them just barely making it.

So even thought $100,000 a year _sounds_ like a lot, it isn't unless you are a) talking about a single person's pay and b) talking about people who have zero debt.

[Piltdown13]

81. And then there's the geography factor

$80k per year would be more than enough to live very, very well on where I live, especially if we're talking about just one person or a couple. But I doubt that money would go nearly as far living in someplace like Boston or New York. No, I don't think $80k could be considered "poor," in almost any location, but it certainly doesn't qualify as "rich" everywhere.

Edited to add -- I guess there's also a very real perspective/perception issue here as well (in determining what is considered rich). I know that I had lots of friends and acquaintances in high school who considered my family to be wealthy, and by comparison with their own families' situations, I can see why they thought that. What they didn't know, though, was that we lived in a paid-off house purchased by my grandparents in the early 1960s...before Grandma deeded my mom the house, we lived in a couple of bare-bones rentals. As for our income, well, there's a reason I qualified for Pell Grants during part of my college career. We weren't poor, but weren't rich either -- but as far as my friends who actually *were* poor were concerned, there was little difference between me and the kids who lived in the million dollar houses and had their own BMW's. But I have a hard time arguing with their perceptions, regardless of how inaccurate they were, because the fact is, our situations *were* different. The trick is getting those two groups to see that they have more in common with each other than anyone does with the super-rich ruling class.

[Beaker]

82. the only time I would consider someone in the U.S. with an $80k income-

to be rich, would be if that was interest income from investments.

anyone with an $80k salary might be comfortable, but not rich...especially if kids are involved.

[GreenPartyVoter]

83. And there you have it.. Neocons have made us turn on each other

by telling us that "comfortable" is the same as "rich".

[redqueen]

96. Yep - set the middle class and the poor up against each other

then the fatcats sit in the back and laugh while they keep shearing us.

*sigh*

[BiggJawn]

84. You're joking, right? 100 kilobucks "isn't rich"?

Then what would you consider MY $37,000? Poverty-stricken?

Methinks a lot of folks here need to study the French Revolution, only try substituting the word "rich" for "Aristocrat"...

[GreenPartyVoter]

87. reread my post please

$100,000 in the free and clear is a lot of money. But it isn't if you are _massively_ in debt and half of it isn't getting to you.

We're raising two kids on $25,000 a year (which is a lot more than what we used to be living on). I know what it is to be poor so don't even try to lecture me on that. I also know that my parents, even on their high income, are living about as well as we are... hand-to-mouth. (The post office keeps "losing" my dad's checks in order to force him to switch to direct deposit, which he does not want to do. So their "big" money isn't in their wallets right now.)

And THIS is what I was talking about when I said it's how the neocons get us to turn on each other. (Us being the middle and working classes.) We need to band together and take on the super-rich, not shred each other while fighting over the crumbs that drop from their gilded tables.

[BiggJawn]

91. Then where do we draw the line?

If we "need to band together", just where do we cut it off at? You want to see it higher than 100 kilo because of your folks. Well, then somebody else will say "No! It needs to be at 250 Kilobucks so I don't get 'shredded'..."

OK, so let's say for the sake of argument that I make $400,000 a year, but my debt load is so obscene that I have to clip coupons and play "utility disconnect roulette". Who's fault is that?

Hey, tough luck about your folks, but I didn't force 'em to take on all that debt .

And from where I sit, 100 kilobucks *IS* "super-rich".

[GreenPartyVoter]

92. No, the economy did though

They haven't made that kind of money all their lives. They had to fight tooth and nail to get what they have. There was a time when my dad was a sternman for a lobsterman who paid him IN LOBSTERS. My mother had to trade lobsters to her friends so they would buy milk and peanut butter for us.

They went into debt when they mortgaged our broken down old house twice to put themselves through grad school and my brother and me through college. They could have let my brother and me sink under the weight of the college loans (and actually, my brother did take on paying for his last years of school so he is still under those loans) but either way _someone_ was going to wind up in debt.

Now, if we had _true_ public education from cradle through at least college, how would that change the number of folks living in debt?

Imagine how many people could get better jobs if they just had the education? Imagine how many folks could own a home by 30 if they weren't saddled with student loans for ten years or more?

So while I understand your point about where do we draw the line... I've come down on the wrong side of it many times. Living at the poverty level but still just too "rich" for rent refund or heat assistance or food stamps.

So think hard about where to draw the line, and just recognize that just because someone looks on papr like they have a lot of money or things doesn't mean they are living well. (I myself am a "homeowner". I own a trailer. I am lucky to have a roof over my head and that I didn't lose it when we went bankrupt, but don't tell me to expect Robin Leach at my door asking to cover my "lifestyle" any time soon.)

Edited for spelling, and to give Dennis K. a mention because he has a plan to make education available to _every_ American.

[reprobate]

104. BiggJawn, we draw the line at attitude, not income.

There are many of the 'upper middle' class that are on our side. I myself am fortunate enough to have worked hard and put away enough and been lucky enough to have retired with enough to be 'comfortable'.

I was talking to my broker the other day and he told me of a wealthy client of his who instructed him to sell all of his walmart stock because of how they treat their employees.

This guys investments and income put most of us to shame, but his heart is in the right place, and to call him the enemy is to ignore a potential allie. That's something we can't afford to do.

Don't judge a book by it's cover, or a person by his income.

[BiggJawn]

110. Please go back and read my earlier post.

Where I asked (rhetorically) if you think the mob will check voter cards before they bludgeon you for your car keys.

That's my warning. You think some mob is going to conduct "exit interviews" when they come to your nice neighbourhood, you're gonna be in for a VERY rude awakening.

I still remember when I was supporting a wife and new baby on $98 a week while some asshole on the TV said "Well, are you better off now than you were..." And back then, I would not have cared how much you gave to the Sierra Club or your local NPR station, or that your portfolio was full of "shade grown" coffee stock. I would have only seen a man who was living less "hand-to-mouth" than me, and it would have made me angry.

You want to keep thinking "but I'm just like them, I just have more money, that's all", fine. You're mistaken, but that's your perogative.

[GreenPartyVoter]

111. My car doesn't run well and my "nice neighborhood" is a trailer park

I'm not worried about the mob coming here to lynch me seeing as how many of them would be my neighbors and friends, who are also struggling to get by. They might try to enlist my help in lynching someone else, though.

Actually, from the sound of your posts it seems like you are living better off than I am these days. Am I supposed to get mad at you for that now and come bang down your door?

Yes, you are right in that there are always folks worse off than you, so how well off you are is all relative. That was my point too, if you read my posts further down in this thread, you'll see that.

[reprobate]

112. OK, we are both right. I reread your post. You are right on the mobs.

No, the mobs won't ask for a financial report. And that's the big worry when it starts, but hopefully it won't be that bad. But you may be right.

On the other hand, we do need the support of everyone whth the same beliefs.

edited to add:

And many of those on our side with resources also have experience and talents in organizing, funding, PR, etc. All abilities that will be needed.

[lapislzi]

99. add geography into it as well...

100k in North Dakota (for example, NO OFFENSE to ND DUers!) is not the same as 100k in the NY metro area, or LA, for example. CGrantt and I gross close to 100k (jointly), and we are comfortable. The knowledge that it could change at any moment keeps us from becoming complacent.

We are also still paying off ex-spousal debts and debts from the days when we were not so well off. Nothing more soul-destroying than debt. Just another of society's many ways of punishing the poor!

[area51]

26. jeebus

Republinazis said:

"...the poor being poor because they want to be...."

I am so tired of that republinazi lie; that is such BS.

[loudnclear]

27. The "class war" has been with us for a long time. We're just losing ...

it takes wealth and power to win...we don't have either that's why we are losing and always will.

[Beam Me Up]

39. I don't accept your defeatist position

What it takes to win is vision and a willingness to think way outside the box. Both those things may be even more difficult to come by than 'wealth and power'. "Wealth and power" are so OLD WORLD. In the New World, real power is insight and real wealth isn't anything anyone can 'own'.

[Hamlette]

28. on NOW tonight they were talking about this...and how we lost the South

it was pretty interesting. Basically the republicans (starting with George Wallace...who was an independent..yeah) started by saying the Dems were the party of big taxes and big government and all government wants to do is take away your rights and your money. They also said private enterprise is the answer to all our woes. It was all about racism. Still is.

Brainwashed.

We need a new meme.

The difference between us and them, and it seems true of your friends, is they feel entitled, we feel thankful. No one got there on their own. No one. (the guy on Now was saying the US is the LEAST mobile society of all of the industrialized nations now. Even in England it is easier to go from class to class than here.)

Oh, and on the issue of "welfaredeform". You don't know what you are talking about. Welfare reform has had more positive effects than negative ones. So far. We should NEVER go back to the "old" system.

[bread_and_roses]

79. I do know what I am talking about

having worked in human services for many years and having (and continuing) to read exhaustively on the subject.

I know yours is the general view, but it is simply inaccurate. I could give you endless anecdotal examples, but I don't trust anecdote as arguement, even my own. There are a number of good analysis of what has happened since welfare "reform." Which was a pander to the demonization of the poor. And tragically, those who are most at risk since welfare "reform" are some of the most vulnerable, including children of single mothers.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

29. David Cay Johnston talked about how the tax system has created class war

My local NPR affiliate, WBUR, has a show called "On Point" and David Cay Johnston was interviewed. He says that the tax system has created a huge disparity and that the middle class is paying for the super-wealthy.

This is DEFINITELY worth a listen!

http://www.onpointradio.org/shows/2004/01/20040130_a_main.asp

[number6]

30. its here ...

..

[gate of the sun]

31. burst their bubble

and never look back....sure it would be nice to ease them in gently but hell life sucks much more for those who are suffering then those with rose colored glasses having them pulled off. I'm sorry I've heard that rhetoric from my mother blah blah blah they chose through ignorance and choice not to know....they aren't babies for godsake.

[Kanary]

34. I thank you, liberalpress, for speaking out for me! Please read!

I understand the conflict you feel about alienating the "nice people" who have been your friends. I understand the feeling of having "stepped in it", and "should have known better".

HOWEVER, the other side of that is... for so very long we have all been afraid of speaking up. We have "hidden our light", and those who are paying the price are the underclass of this country, the ones who just aren't the popular cause, and haven't been for a very long time. It's popular to speak up about the environment, or animals or "outsourcing" (what a silly word!). There are many popular causes, but those of us on the edge are mostly forgotten in all this. I have begun to feel like the proverbial chopped liver. I feel like a pariah right here at DU. People talk about the uprising of the underclass, but that is very unlikely to happen, as we have no support, and KNOW that we have no support.

Knowing that you have spoken up in my behalf means more to me than you can imagine! I need to know that there are those who are willing to put some of their values on the line, and speak the truth.

There is a woman here on DU, Mari333, who has written many posts about her situation with her stepson in the military, and how she is speaking up to her relatives, and cutting off those who can't/won't understand her feelings about the war. *I* need the have the same support with my situation. I need to have those who will speak up on my behalf and take those risks. Otherwise, "they will come for me, and nobody will speak up", to paraphrase the words of the WWII philosopher.

So, I know that right now it probably doesn't feel very comfortable, and you may be second-guessing your words. Just know that *I* am appreciating what you said to them, and others in my situation would, too, if they could know.

A heart-felt thank you!

Kanary, who is also a "nice person", but is fading away....

[liberalpress]

61. Thanks for the kind words..

...I am happy to be employed right now, but like the rest of us, only a paycheck away from being one of "them" (Gawd I hate that term)

[fudge stripe cookays]

64. Don't worry Kanary.

I'm in the middle of Freeperland here in Texas, and I try to talk to people about this all the time.

I used to love my job. I was in a department of 20, and loved all my coworkers.

Then Bush got elected. A good number of them voted for him. A good number of them were laid off. And a good number of them STILL love him.

And a good number of them have now been crossed off my correspondence list. I've tried talking to them, mailing them informative articles, etc. After awhile, I just said "Screw it." These were not friendships; they were acquaintanceships. I was not willing to compromise my principles any longer with these idiots just to "keep the peace." I will get in people's faces and tell them WHY they were laid off, why our president and his minions are destroying our country, and why I won't put up with their ignorance anymore.

Good luck. Keep the faith.
FSC

[Broken]

40. ....

The existence of classes is class war. Therefore to end class war the working class must abolish the middle and ruling class.




"We know that revolution begins with street disturbances and outbreaks; it is the initial phase which involves force and violence. But that is merely the spectacular prologue of the real revolution. The age long misery and indignity suffered by the masses burst into disorder and tumult, the humiliation and injustice meekly borne for decades find vents in facts of fury and destruction. That is inevitable, and it is solely the master class which is responsible for this preliminary character of revolution. For it is even more true socially than individually that 'whoever sows the wind will reap the whirlwind;' the greater the oppression and wretchedness to which the masses had been made to submit, the fiercer the rage of the social storm. All history proves it . . ." Alexander Berkman

[JanMichael]

41. Good.

I will support my brothers and sisters to whatever end there is.

[solinvictus]

42. America and class war

It's happening right now and the current Republicans are turning the clock back a century for the benefit of their corporate masters. I believe it was George Will who said that the goal of conservatism was a return to the economic world of 1900. I certainly believe it. Unfortunately, among many poor Republicans, there's a perception that's analagous to the old notion of the Divine Right of Kings execept it applies to corporate America. Though the poor Republican may make $16K per year in a menial, dead end job, they sincerely believe that CEOs and super wealthy corporate owners earned their money through hard work and brains. They will, because of politics or religious fundamentalism, identify with the same people that bleed them dry and deny them a living wage. Here in the South, religious fundamentalism is rampant among the conservative poor and they will typically vote in lock step for Republican candidates.

[specimenfred1984]

43. Don't Judge Them, Educate Them

and if they can't learn anything, then you'll have to admit your 'friends' are either dumb and/or bigots.

And the classwar is already being waged everyday. Corporations have rights that people don't, a huge corrupt propaganda ministry sells us lies everyday and, our so-called leaders lie and steal from us daily as well.

It's a financial war now, who knows if it'll become an actual civil war. If 2004 is another presidential "selection", I think a civil war will actually occur and much sooner than people think it will.

A few riots could quickly go national, affecting every major city. I've been in the middle of a riot, it's not something anyone should ever wish for. Every effort should be made to avoid this type of thing happening to America.

Educate your friends and the masses.

[mhr]

73. If They Refuse To Listen And Learn, The Only Thing Left Is

The club,

Rope,

Knife,

and Gun!

Lot's of Guns!

And then lots more of those Guns!

One day the republican thugs are going to rue the day they did not support gun control.

This is truly indicative of how smug they are.

[Serenity-NOW]

44. Don't be afraid, class warfare has been here for some time

portions of the ultra wealthy have been waging war for some time now. That's why they need protected compounds. Take Bill Gates for example as he buys up the perimeter homes to his own. Now why could that be? Are there increased sales in fencing, walls and gates? I'd bet there are. It's about Peak Oil and don't be confused about what is going on.

[Sapphocrat]

46. There was a time...

...I didn't understand how the U.S. Civil War could literally pit "brother against brother." I thought blood really was thicker than water, no matter what -- how could ideology ever be so divisive?

I understand it now. As the out and outspoken liberal lesbian of a large extended family, I've become the target of several who are rich (and who have never had to actually go out and get a job -- they inherited their daddy's business), arrogant, smug, and thoroughly committed to their Bush*-loving ignorance. But they zero in on me, because they know it makes me crazy to be dismissed as the silly little cousin who'll grow up one day and see the light. (My oldest cousin actually said to me: "I'll keep working on you -- I'll bring you around." My answer: "Where the fuck do you intend to start -- by turning me straight?")

They don't want discussion or even debate -- it's just a cruel game to them. They take obvious great glee in grinding their $300 Bruno Magli heels into my face.

And maybe it is out of fear. At this point, I don't care. I won't be treated like an idiot just to be polite and not burst their little bubble.

In the end, I've decided it's just not worth it. I don't go to family gatherings anymore. Ideology is that important, if betraying your deepest convictions means selling your soul in order to keep the peace. (You'll pardon the multiple mixed metaphors, I hope.)

So screw them; I don't giving a damn if I never see them again.

On a positive note: My eldest sister and my ultra-born-again cousin -- both of whom are registered Democrats who voted for * in '00 (but neither of whom shares that nasty, blind arrogance I was just talking about) -- have each decided they're voting Democratic this fall. I thought both were lost causes, but after a lot of loooooooong talks over the past three years, now they're the ones asking me about the candidates. So that's made me feel pretty terrific lately -- and almost canceled out the arrogant assholism of the true Repukes in my family.

And, btw, on the subject of class warfare: You know how everybody keeps asking how there can possibly be gay Republicans in the world? It's classism, that's all. That's all of it.

[Seldona]

48. Hate to admit, but I think your right.

Not everyone is going to be rich. Period.

To some of us that doesn't even matter.

All I want is to work hard, have my own house, maybe a cabin up north to retire to.

I don't live beyond my means. I don't owe anyone anything. I think about the future and am trying to plan for it.

But I live paycheck to paycheck. Most jobs are part time and offer no benefits, and if they do they are a joke.

What pisses me off is the transfer of wealth from the blue collar workers, of which I come from a long line.

Not everyone goes to college. Doesn't mean we are stupid. Or less deserving of a decent life.

So does that mean my wife and I should work 4 jobs just to own a house, drive a late model car?

Excuse me, but the rich got theirs. That is fine.

But when they start going for mine too just because they are so arrogant that I am somehow less and deserve to live a shit life, that is when I will push back.

Why can't there be a living wage?

Why do I have to live from paycheck to paycheck so some fuckhead can get a jet?

So shareholders can get fugging richer and pay less taxes while my payroll taxes go up?

They wouldn't have ANYTHING if it wasn't for us. The worker.

And most of my family could work circles around those people, easy.

I thought the American dream was supposed to be about everyone getting a little piece of the pie.

I will work my ass off for it.

But when my government starts allowing companies to steal our goddam benefits and pensions, that is crossing the line.

I about lost it when they cut overtime to 8 million Americans, and then told companies how to avoid paying it to those who were supposed to be helped by the new rules.

It is obsene!

Bah I have to mellow out. But this shit really does get to me.

Just one more comment.

There are one hell of alot more like me then them.

Once people wake up, this current crop of corporate whores are in for one big wake up call.

And I do not advocate violence here.

I really mean taking this country back and force a government for and by the people.

Like it is supposed to be. Like I believe Democrats can make happen, if given the chance.


Sorry about ranting here. Just had to say this.

[grasswire]

49. a proud tradition in America

The day will come with a red, red dawn
And the men in the marble halls
Will hide and try to get away
From the men in the overalls


(something like that, from the days of the Wobblies)

[Seldona]

50. Well said.

I just hope I wasn't over the top there. Been sitting here thinking maybe I was.

Definately touched a nerve.

[loudsue]

80. What a great post! I'm bookmarking this thread...

So many simple observations that speak thunderous truths.

Wow!


:kick:

[rman]

51. RW would have us believe..

That any individual's chance of finding a job depends -exclusively- on the individual's desire to work.

They seem to think the number of available jobs is always infinite.

ie the fact that corporations move lots of jobs off-shore (which they are allowed to do because of laws and regulations passed by government) would not reduce chances of finding a job - according to repubs.

[Snappy]

52. Good Posts

Hey, rants are good. I am not against people having some wealth but when CEOs make 50 times more than the lowest paying worker and walk of with millions upon retirement, somethin' jus aint right. When companies shut down and move to Mexico then to China, it just aint right. When companies send jobs to India, it jus aint right. This matra about everyone can be retrained for somethin'else then if that job is outsourced or the company moves just don't get it. You guys understand, right?

The Dems are guilty of selling out the American worker, also. Maybe not as much or outrageous as the Repubs but they haven't helped much.
Kucinich is the only candidate that really unnderstand all of this and he has been doing what he can about it. I am not advocating Socialism but as on another thread I feel that a hybrid is needed.

The country will be 3rd World one if this trend of gutting the system isn't stopped. The Neo Fascists are not Repubs. The are are brand of Corporate bootlickers and most of them are millionaires. They have disdain for Americans below their income level.

I have more on this...later.

[Jose Diablo]

54. Not 50 times

500 times!!!

[quaker bill]

56. It started twenty three years ago

With the election of Ronald Reagan. We had a bit of a drop in the tempo during Clinton, but it has picked right up again under Shrub.

I enjoy taking cloistered middle class types down to the shelter to feed and have dinner with the homeless. They find out that these are real people who really don't like their current situation.

The problem is that not many people are open to this. It would mess with their minds too much.

[OneTwentyoNine]

57. I couldn't have debated your Rethug friend under the freakin table..

Standard mantra in the Limbaugh/Repig play book: "Poor people are poor because they want to be."

While that might hold true to a very thin slice that just don't want to work,the truth is for the other 99.99% they DON'T choose to be poor,Republicans and greedy Corporations make that choice for them.

Twelve long years of Reagan and Bush proved that. Wages were stagnant and actually went backwards in those 12 years. I'd never heard of a "wage concession" until Ronald Reagan took office and 10 million lost their job. Minimum wage never budged in those years yet prices on most everything else went sky high. We had the largest rate increases on utility's in the mid-eighties around here. Car prices went up so much that for the first time in history used cars outsold new.

What's changed during Chimpboys 3 years? Nothing,wages are again sitting still,aviation workers here are once again taking concessions and then STILL seeing their jobs disappearing. We're once again running massive deficits which will have to be paid for in higher interest rates and taxes.

No one wants to be poor,but when the best job you can get pays $240.00 a week you end up being poor by todays standards and prices.

David

[BiggJawn]

60. Local company took "Wage Concessions" last week.

The paper had a picture of the CEO at the Union hall having a beer w/the Rank and File, thanking them for saving HIS job as well as their own....

If I had been the Local president, I wouldn't have let the guy on the property, much less had a brewski with him. HE is the problem, not the membership.
And how did the Union decide to give back their pay? The Company told them they'd be out of work and the factory would move if they didn't give it up.

And there's no promise that Fairfield won't go ahead and close anyway this fall.

But then we'll have a coupla weeks in the paper of teary-eyed former factory workers crying "But we gave them CONCESSIONS! NOW what are we gonna do? My wife also lost HER job at the hospital. It's all them Demorat's fault! Rush said so!"

[cryofan]

58. BRING.....IT.......ON!!!

Class war is something we desperately need in this country. But that class needs to be waged in 2 places: in the ballot box and on the strike line. If you read my sig url and go to links about social democracies, you will find out about how the Danes managed to use massive strikes to paralyze Denmark, thus forcing the ruling elite to give them what they wanted.

[thinkingwoman]

66. not coming--coming to a head

We're at the beginning of the end of the class war. It's been waged for decades and the poor are losing--big time (as cheney the reanimated rat man says).

IMHO, we're like the south in the civil war as Atlanta was burning. It's all but over.


The question is, what's our next move?

[camero]

67. Wrong analogy

I would use Gettysburg myself. It took awhile for the Union Army to be backed up that far before they went on a rampage that culminated in the burning of Atlanta.

[thinkingwoman]

69. ok, I conceed

yours is better than mine. ;-)

[camero]

72. We will win yet

:)

[thinkingwoman]

74. I think most of the troops

need to fight and win still don't know what is happening to them yet.

I read so many posts on DU that claim that the masses don't care or are going along with what our modern day robber barons are doing. I just don't think that is true. I think most people know they are being hit, but don't understand where the flurry of blows are coming from. Once they do, and they eventually will, look out!

Like you, I believe we will win. But what is the next move? How can we begin to educate the troops without tripping the class warfare wire that gets us beaten back down in the national media. How can we reclaim the issue by reframing it, and stay under the radar long enough to do some serious educating?

[camero]

76. Forums like this are a start

That's where the education begins. Also at the dinner table, the water cooler, town meetings, and other places. Some bubbles will get burst on the way. You can't win them all but enough of them will wake up to the fact that the rich are not on their side.

I remember when Bush first got selected and some cable schmuk said, "What are they gonna do? Stop paying taxes? Move to Canada? Stop going to work?". Sooner or later people will figure out that to turn things around they need to stop feeding the troll. And now alot of these ideas are floating around out there.

The seed has been planted. We just need to help it grow.

[mhr]

68. If The Rich Are Taxed Too Much And The Poor To Little, Then

Why has the income gap between rich and poor continued to grow?

Secondly, if millionaires and billionaires can fight for their economic interests, then why can't the poor and middle class?

Thirdly, there is already class warfare in this country. Just look at the income of one CEO.

The income of Lou Gerstner from 2002 tells the sad tale.

L. Gerstner
Former Chairman and CEO
International Bus. Machines

(see the link below for better formatting)

2002 Compensation
Salary $ 2,000,000
Bonus $ 1,500,000
Long-Term Incentive Payoffs $ 1,542,314
Restricted Stock Awards $12,875,000
Other Compensation $ 370,465
Value of Stock Option Grants* $ 0
Total 2002 Compensation Plus Stock Option Grants $18,287,779

CEO-to-Worker Comparisons
Annual Weekly Daily Hourly Per Minute
L. Gerstner $18,287,779 $351,688 $70,337 $8,792 $146
Low Wage Worker $10,712 $206 $41 $5.15 $0.09
Average Worker $25,501 $490 $98 $12.26 $0.20
President $400,000 $7,692 $1,538 $192 $3.21

How Many Years to Equal L. Gerstner's 2002 Compensation?
Low Wage Worker 1707 years Completion Date 3709 A.D.
Average Worker 717 years Completion Date 2719 A.D.
President 91 years Completion Date 2093 A.D.

Source: AFL/CIO

http://www.aflcio.org/corporateamerica/paywatch/ceou/database.cfm?tkr=...

[mhr]

70. Horatio Alger Is Dead, Didn't Your Friends Get The Memo!

Serioulsy, Paul Krugman wrote on this in December.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040105&c=1&s=krugman

The Death of Horatio Alger
by PAUL KRUGMAN

The Nation
January 5, 2004 Issue

The other day I found myself reading a leftist rag that made outrageous claims about America. It said that we are becoming a society in which the poor tend to stay poor, no matter how hard they work; in which sons are much more likely to inherit the socioeconomic status of their father than they were a generation ago.

The name of the leftist rag? Business Week, which published an article titled "Waking Up From the American Dream." The article summarizes recent research showing that social mobility in the United States (which was never as high as legend had it) has declined considerably over the past few decades. If you put that research together with other research that shows a drastic increase in income and wealth inequality, you reach an uncomfortable conclusion: America looks more and more like a class-ridden society.

And guess what? Our political leaders are doing everything they can to fortify class inequality, while denouncing anyone who complains--or even points out what is happening--as a practitioner of "class warfare."

Let's talk first about the facts on income distribution. Thirty years ago we were a relatively middle-class nation. It had not always been thus: Gilded Age America was a highly unequal society, and it stayed that way through the 1920s. During the 1930s and '40s, however, America experienced what the economic historians Claudia Goldin and Robert Margo have dubbed the Great Compression: a drastic narrowing of income gaps, probably as a result of New Deal policies. And the new economic order persisted for more than a generation: Strong unions; taxes on inherited wealth, corporate profits and high incomes; close public scrutiny of corporate management--all helped to keep income gaps relatively small. The economy was hardly egalitarian, but a generation ago the gross inequalities of the 1920s seemed very distant.

Snip ......

[Selwynn]

75. Class war is coming? Newsflash - Classwarfare has been here since...

the industrial revolution.

[GreenPartyVoter]

78. A river of blood

I think it's going to become a physically violent issue before much longer.

The have-nots can't take much more.

[Kanary]

113. No, it won't be "physically violent"

You're right, the "have-nots" can't take much more. But, they will, again, take it out on themselves.

As I've said many times, they know there isn't any support for them. They have been marginalized, including among the liberals and progressives.

They have been effectively seperated from each other. Lone people don't start "physically violent" actions. Even if one person "loses it", there won't be a rush of others to the cause.

There will just be quiet, unnoticed deaths.

You can't look to the "have-nots" to start your revolution for you.

Kanary

[Gman]

85. I think your friends have the same disregard for you

as they do for others. Frankly, if they got that upset, I don't think they were ever really friends. Friends are people that you can count on when you need them. I seriously doubt people of that mindset would be there for you or anyone else.

Frankly, I would find other friends.

[Gman]

86. And... During in the Civil War

brothers fought brothers, friends fought friends.

Its the same now. Will the culture war become violent? At this point I still don't know.

[catmandu57]

90. Nobody should have more wealth than they could spend in two lifetimes

What are they going to do with it, let it sit and be looked at? Drag it into a pile and sleep on it like Smaug?

A history professor told me that until the middle class starts feeling downward preassure then things will stay pretty much the same. The poor and ultra poor are sociatal whipping boys, as long as one can feel they have a little more than the jones then things stay quiet.

That's the trouble, people who have just enough to have too much, who perceive that they are in the upper class, when in reality they are nowhere near it nor have any hope of attaining upward mobility.

These are the people who have bought the pigboy's lies, who will defend the "system" until the bitter end. Those for whom welfare is a code word, racist, and justifying their views.

Those are the people who really need to fear economic upheaval, the rich, the ultra rich, they are hidden behind walls, they have the ability to escape. If class war, adctual physical blood letting war were to break out, who would one go for?

The ones perceived as wealthy, because those people would be long gone from here.

[bleedingheart]

88. The masses are getting tired of being labeled...the war is starting

There are a lot of people who work 40+ hours a week and can't make ends meet but yet GOPers can't help but proclaim that those people "just don't work hard enough or long enough"...and at the same time they blather on about family values. Funny when you work more than 40 hours a week, you don't have much time for family.

[Silverhair]

89. The word "ALL" seems to be a large part of the problem.

I suspect that your self made friend looks at ALL poor people as failures, and I also suspect that you look at ALL poor people as just unlucky. The truth is a mixture of both. Some poor are poor through no fault of their own, and some are poor because they make and continue to make bad life choices.

Let's face it. The choices we make in life DO HAVE CONSEQUENCES. And often one of those consequences if poverty. But there are also those whom have done everything right, and are still poor. One of the problems we have is that our programs for poor relief don't attempt to treat the cause, but mostly consist of handouts. The handouts come at a high price in social self esteem for the poor and in resentment by the taxpayers.

I am not against helping. I have received help in the past, but it was temporary help to get me back on my feet after outside events had knocked me down. I didn't stay on the dole.

--------

A few days ago, I was enjoying a poker conversation with a new acquaintance, and somehow the conversation turned to politics. He was of the opposite persuasion from myself, and he was also the type who didn't have any depth to his politics, just opinions strongly stated. I declined to engage in the political side of the conversation and steered the talk back to poker. I don't view politics as so important that it must dominate all avenues of my life.

[Jim Warren]

94. One of the best threads I've read here, ever.

Class war has always been, yes, but the largest transfer of wealth in the history of the planet began with the S&L crisis under Regan, coasted along under Poppy Bush and now is in the home stretch with junior and the neo-cons.

They mean to win it this time.

Remember what the godfather of the neo-cons, Irving Kristol, said:
"Gun-boats or police cars, whatever it takes".

The many controlled by the few.

We are more, we have the numbers.

Keep your powder dry.

And kick it!

[Zero Gravitas]

98. Its already started

in fact it has been going on for some time. How else to describe the massive export of blue and white collar jobs from this country? We're asked to believe that middle class people with their fancy 5-figure salaries and 3 bedroom houses are parasites on the American economy. Why if we can only push these freeloaders off the bottom line, CEOs everywhere can buy those much-needed second yachts.

[Ripley]

100. Right here in this thread.

There are people here attacking other DUers because they make a professional salary (it must be over $80,000 I guess to be considered super rich).

I don't know any professionals (engineers, lawyers, doctors, managers, even ER nurses I know) who make much less than $60=80,000 a year.

Why do you hate people who worked their asses off in school in order to get a good paying job? In real dollars these wages are actually less than what those professionals made 30 years ago.

This is why the Democrats continue to lose.

[GreenPartyVoter]

101. It's easy

to see someone who looks they have more than you and be angry about that. I feel that way myself sometimes.

But I stop have to stop and remind myself of two things. 1) there are some terrific RICH folks out there. Ben Cohen, Paul Newman, etc and 2) Somewhere there is someone who would kill to have what I have. Somewhere out there someone even poorer than I am is sizing my neck up for a guillotine.

This doesn't mean I don't care about poverty or class warefare. I surely do. It just means that I need to keep my eye on the prize, equality through better policies, and focus my energy on that. (And by better policies, I mean what Dennis Kucinich has in mind. ;) And of course, I feel better policies will come about with a better election system.)

[Ripley]

105. But everything is relative.

When I was 19, working as a waitress and secretary doing shit work for frat boys who were given their jobs on a silver platter, I resented their salaries and clothes.

When I graduated from college and was able to use that in order to get my foot in the door and work my way up in very good paying jobs, I saw the difference. I was older, more worldy, more work-experienced and became well aware that not everyone making a salary well over the average of what? $40,000 is rich. There are huge considerations to be taken in. What are their work skills? Education? Luck? Where do they live geographically? Do they save their money? Do they invest? How old are they? How much do they give to charities?

I'm sick of being told I'm uber rich and should feel guilty because we have paid our dues and can now be comfortable (well, as much as you can when there is nowhere to invest your money safely and Smirk is causing massive layoffs and a continued jittery economy across the board).

Democrats who buy into this warfare are no different than the sheeple who buy into the repuke news that you should be proud to have that Walmart job, despite losing your IT job making 30 times that amount.

The dumbing down of Americans has resulted in fatalistic Americans who either cannot remember or choose not to read history that shows how the middle class after WWII until about the 1970's was better off than the "super rich" at $80,000 makes today. Yes, there were poor people back then too, and maybe the majority didn't make $5,0000 a year, but did they resent those who went to college and had a good job? No, they saw it as hopeful, they could do it too.

Today, average people can't do that because college tuition has skyrocketed out of sight, grants have disappeared and depressed wages and no savings vehicles prevent people from saving for college.

So, the war is on.

[redqueen]

102. Failure to identify the true enemy

This is common and frustrating as hell.

The 'powers that be' have managed to divide & conquer very effectively in advance of this 'class war'.

If they can count on the poor to attack the middle and upper middle class, they're safe.

Even the way they divide the income brackets adds to this misidentification of the problem. It's divided into quintiles, when it really needs to be very finely granulated at the top (1%, 2%, 5%, 10%, etc.) THESE are the real criminals, not professionals making 100-200K.

[Zero Gravitas]

107. huh?

Why do you hate people who worked their asses off in school in order to get a good paying job?

I don't hate them. In fact I am one of them. My quote about "fancy 5 figure salaries and 3-bedroom houses" was SARCASM.

[Ripley]

108. Sorry!

I didn't mean to respond to you, personally...

I was talking about the posts above who seem to feel that way.

I got your sarcasm! :hi:

[reprobate]

109. The first shot in the class war was the assasination of JFK

He was about to pull us out of viet nam, and to make a deal with castro, two things the super rich hated. The first because of the war profits to the military-industrial-government complex, and the second because of the gambling and agro complexes. Anything that threatens the profits of the very rich will cause them to strike back, usually violently.

The texans had the phrase: remember the alamo

The french had the phrase: remember the bastille

How about we have the phrase: remember the kennedies.

[Lorien]

115. kick