I'm not entirely convinced that Bush went AWOL. Prove it to me.

[45th Med]

Until I see documents from the Alabama ANG, I can't commit to calling Bush AWOL. I have mentioned it a few times, but I have not been convinced by the documents provided by www.awolbush.com. Prove it to me that Bush was AWOL. Show me proof, don't just start namecalling. General Clark or Kerry still will not commit to actually calling Bush AWOL.

The US Military does not give Honorable Discharges to Airmen who are AWOL for a whole year. It was reported that workers with the Senate Campaign that Bush worked on in Alabama knew of Bush leaving for the weekend to perform his duty. I'm sure most of you know, National Guard members report for duty once a month so did he miss all 12 duty cycles?

I am aware of documents that point to the fact that Bush may have missed some weekend drills and he was administratively reprimanded for that. This document shows that Bush missed 35 days in his career.....that is not AWOL for a full year in any case.

All I am asking for is PROOF that Bush was AWOL for a year and never reported to his temporary assignment. I'll be convinced then.

[loudnclear]

1. You won't see documents just like you didn't see docs about cocaine

arrest. When is the last time you saw any documents on criminal behavior of children of the elites?

[45th Med]

9. Feast your eyes on this Document provided in a FOIA request.

I count only 32 days IADT, that is not a full year AWOL.

[Cronus Protagonist]

19. One day AWOL is bad enough - why do you reject 32 days?

Why must it be a full year? Would you be satisfied with 364 days? What's up with this? If he was ONE DAY AWOL, it is enough. And we know he was missing in action for several duty cycles. He was AWOL. All you're doing is asking people to prove a whole year.

By the way, he is an alcoholic too, but you'll be wanting proof he drank every single day for 15 years, right?

"FUCK Bush" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[45th Med]

22. How do you know he didn't have permission?

I have missed 2.5 months (weekend duty cycles) straight with verbal permission from my unit commander.

[Cronus Protagonist]

39. Sure, we don't know if he had "verbal permission"

Bush's commanding officer did nothing of the sort, because he noted on documents that Bush did not show up, and he was clearly expecting Bush to work out his obligations. He did not mention in writing anywhere that the abscense were with his permission.

I see you're getting desperate because your first post was a straw man argument (the key point requiring an entire years worth of proof) and now you're calling for a non-existent authority to corroberate a fantastic premise.

IMHO, you would fail a debate class in college.

"FUCK Bush" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[mhr]

2. Where Was He During The Year In Alabama, The Guard Did Not Know!

It's clear that no one else ever heard from him during that period as well.

That's all the proof you need.

Next question?

[Mari333]

6. My oldest son was in the Guard

if he wouldnt have shown up for his weekend stunts he would have been DIShonourably discharged and had an asskicking believe me...
His unit was shocked when I showed them bU$sh's records.
Frat boy got a pass from Poppy. Simple as that.

[45th Med]

7. There is ALWAYS DOCUMENTATION TO REPRIMAND AN AWOL SOLDIER

Soldiers can't just walk off and not get filed as such. Plain and simple. During the ABC report it said senate campaign workers said that they witnessed or knew of Bush leaving for weekend duty.

[Jackpine Radical]

15. There are supposed to be all kinds of documents

in your military records, such as--in the case of a pilot--flight medical records & records of drug tests. Where are THOSE records? The point here is that Bush's military file seems to have been "cleaned" at some point before the 2000 election.

The senate campaign workers are, first, partisan "witnesses," and second, even if telling the truth about what Bush said, they were in no position to observe where Shrub actually went. Most likely they've been dug up from somewhere and told to alibi the Dork in Chief.

[mike1963]

32. They saw him "leaving". What a great alibi. I take it you aren't up on

rules of evidence.
:eyes:

[Malva Zebrina]

3. I submit to you then that you contact George Bush and demand he release

his military records. Also I think you need to ask or demand of your president that he explain what he was doing during those eighteen months that his name is absent from all the military records.

I mean, come on, you do not need to attack the researchers here and elswhere that wonder about Bush's service and his AWOL and are asking questions about it.

All you need to do is demand of your appointed warmongering "president" whose biggest thrill, according to his press releases and his photo ops, smirking and acting like the strutting chimpanzee, is being in control of the life and death of hundreds of our young boys and girls who serve in the military, that he fully and honestly release all of his military records. Right? What is so hard about that?

[Jax]

8. Thank you Marianne

Looking forward to the answers.

Jax

[Lucille]

11. This is exactly right. Why hasn't * released his records?

Show the records and mean people will stop making these terrible, shameful election-year attacks.

[caledesi]

16. You are so right Lucille! Show us the "money" (records) and put

this to rest. Bet they can't do it.

And no, Scott McClellan, we don't care about no stinkin' honorable discharge - we want to know where he was!

[45th Med]

12. I submit that YOU are ATTACKING ME.

Read this document. I can explain it to you if you need help.

[9215]

20. Explain it to me please. n/t

[45th Med]

30. In a nutshell....

he missed 32 days. There are 52 weeks in a year, 104 days active duty for a weekend reservist. 8 days a month, so he missed a total of 4 months of duty. He may have had permission to miss those days.

[FlashHarry]

4. I don't think he was AWOL.

I think he was a lazy shirker who used his family connections to jump ahead in line and get a position in the Texas ANG defending Austin from the Viet Cong. I think he missed a few drills and his superiors gave him a slap on the wrist, while Kerry and Clark were fighting in Viet Nam. AWOL or no, he shouldn't position himself as a 'veteran.'

[Jackpine Radical]

Bush's C.O. filled out his annual efficiency report

with the words "Not observed at this site." So where was he?

[MooPie]

5. How about this then for deserter?

If you're willing to believe that he showed up for duty in Alabama, yet no one there remembers this future president of the United States... ...then let's take a look at this excerpt from the Texas Military Code.:
Acts 1987, 70th Leg., ch. 147, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1987. § 432.130. Desertion
(a) A member of the state military forces is guilty of desertion if the member:
(1) without authority goes or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to remain away permanently;
(2) quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service; or
(3) without being regularly separated from one of the state military forces, enlists or accepts an appointment in the same or another of the state military forces, or in one of the armed forces of the United States, without fully disclosing the fact that he has not been regularly separated.
(b) A commissioned officer of the state military forces who, after tender of his resignation and before notice of its acceptance, quits his post or proper duties without leave and with intent to remain away permanently is guilty of desertion.
(c) A person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished as a court-martial directs.
As is evident from the above, one of the elements of desertion is intent to remain away permanently. Bush asked for discharge from the TANG on September 5, 1973, and apparently left for grad school immediately after. (Does anyone know of university grad school years starting after September?) Now, let's take another look at that excerpt from the Texas Military Code.


(b) A commissioned officer of the state military forces who, after tender of his resignation and before notice of its acceptance, quits his post or proper duties without leave and with intent to remain away permanently is guilty of desertion.
So... On September 5th, 1973, George Bush asked for discharge (resigned from) the Texas Air National Guard, thereby stating his intent to not return to duty with the TANG. Now let us examine another document

That document is Bush's Discharge from the TANG. Notice block 33, at the bottom: "NOT AVAILABLE FOR SIGNATURE". There it is, folks. Bush left Texas before his resignation from the TANG was approved. There is your evidence of desertion.



Go here to read the entire document: www.awolbush.com/deserter.html

[45th Med]

17. So? Read my DD214. I was not available for signature either.....

many are not available to sign their outgoing paperwork, plain and simple. You are not obligated to sign your discharge paperwork, I did not....am I a deserter?

[MooPie]

26. No. I don't know your intent prior to your being discharged.

But the point being that Bush left immediately for school with no intent to return before he received his discharge papers. Technically he deserted as he had not yet been officially discharged.

[leanings]

25. Still doesn't hold up.

"after tender of his resignation and before notice of its acceptance"

A discharge isn't necessarily notice of the acceptance of a resignation.

[MooPie]

35. I'm sorry

But I'm confused as to what doesn't hold up. Do you mean that a discharge could have occurred prior to his submitting a request for resignation, thereby negating his request?

[YNGW]

10. DOA

>The US Military does not give Honorable Discharges to Airmen who are AWOL for a whole year.

Exactly. This is a dead-end street. Some haven't figured it out yet. They will. Maybe. No guarantees.

Focus: Economy and Security

[Sterling]

31. Unless your daddy is powerful.

And everone knows it's true. No way around it. Bush got a sweet deferment to the NG and half assed his way through it and got his daddy to make it all better. I don't know many Americans who think that is ok. It sounds exactly like the kinda thing we should be pressing them on.

[YNGW]

37. Good Luck!

But if we do, we're beating a dead horse. If this was to be an issue, it should have been made one in 2000. We tried then and it didn't stick. It won't be any different this time. Mark it down.

What's the word that describes someone who does the same thing over and over again expecting a different result?

[grasswire]

13. why not just ask George...

...to open his military record.

If there's nothing to hide, why won't he?

[BeFree]

14. Proof?

There will be an investigation. The proof will come out then.

As far as I'm concerned, he was AWOL and a Deserter. Why? The evidence I have seen, establishes that he failed to show up for his flight exam, and he failed to report to the Alabama Guard. That's the evidence I've seen. It's good enough for me, for now. The proof will come out in the investigation.

Until then, he was AWOL and a Deserter.

[45th Med]

18. What does this FOIA document mean to you?

[Wickerman]

23. what the heck is it?

A document, with no name on it? Am I missing the name? What is this intended to be proof of?

[45th Med]

34. This was provided on www.awolbush.com

I do not know the provenance of this document but it does provide tantilizing clues.

[Darwin2002]

24. Does the CHPY in corner stand for Chimpy? That's the only name i see.

How do you know who wrote the notations or when they were written. For all I know Karen Hughes wrote that in 2000.

[mike1963]

27. It's an alleged copy of an alleged document with nobody's goddamn

NAME on it.

[45th Med]

38. It may be under what was marked out......

nt

[ramblin_dave]

28. A document of questionalble origin

most likely a forgery that attempted to establish service for the missing months after this whole matter became controversial. Ask Marty Heldt, he is very familar with this document.

[madrchsod]

21. he was a coward

that cannot be debated. he refused to fly overseas, he won`t say where he was. i didn`t go because i told them i was not going to go.they thought i was crazy so they gave me a 4f. was i a coward? at least i stood in front of the guy in the induction center and said no and i was willing to face the possible outcome. did bush? no he hid out till the heat was off -he should have been put on active duty and shipped overseas. he`s a coward then and he`s a coward now....

[newscaster]

36. Keep in mind who daddy was and who granddaddy was.

The military gives out direct commission to doctors and clergy or those with a needed skill. Not to Ya;le graduates. Also, this TANG was a dream unit for the sons of nabobs who wanted their sons safe from Vietnam, in other words, the privileged.
Add to that the fact the former members ofg those units cannot remember seeing Bush on the AF base on the dates or time period in question and his commanding officer has no memory of him. Either everybody in the Air National Guard was blind and deaf or....Bush wasnt there. That he missed many many guard meetings is a given. That he refused a mandatory physical exam is a given, that he was granded is a given and that he decided to give up his commission after being assigned to a disciplinary Guard unit in Colorado is a fact. SWhat more do you want? A confession? Hah!

[SalParadise]

29. I think the closest thing we're going to see to "proof"

is the LACK of proof that he WAS there & the unwillingness of his organization to release any records on the matter.

I'm not convinced myself per se that he was AWOL (under the legal definition), but you have to admit that he definitely didn't serve his time in the guard like a normal citizen would have. He was obviously away from "duty" for extended periods, commanding officers admit to NOT seeing him for stretches at a time.

AWOL/Deserter - just semantics I say - the guy obviously used his position in life to get out of going to Vietnam (as did many other people) but also abused this ticket out of the war by coming & going at will. You or I, or any of the 150,000 soldiers in Iraq right now who tried the same would be sitting in jail.

The man is a disgrace not only to the country but also to the men & women who serve under "his" leadership (or lack thereof) as commander-in-chief.

[Beetwasher]

33. You Certainly GET It!

That's for sure! Welcome to DU!

[Moderator]

40. Locking

Rules to start discussion threads in the General Discussion forum.

...

7. Discussion topics that mention any or all of the Democratic presidential primary candidates are not permitted in the General Discussion forum, and instead must be posted in the General Discussion: 2004 Primary forum.

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