Saginaw citizens fight J-ROTC program in schools

[Bozita]

http://www.mlive.com/news/sanews/index.ssf?/base/news-9/107590801939850.xml

ROTC suggestion under fire


Wednesday, February 4, 2004
COREY MITCHELL
THE SAGINAW NEWS



Antiwar residents are trying to shoot down plans to bring military training to the Saginaw School District.

School leaders are considering offering Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps instruction at Arthur Hill and Saginaw high schools.

Kill the proposal, opponents said.

"Take it off the table," resident Mark Kraych said. "Put it on the back burner. Let's get something else for our kids to do."

The former City Council candidate and several other civilians spoke out against the ROTC plan during Monday's Saginaw Board of Education meeting.

He pointed out that Holly McGeogh, Michigan's first female soldier killed in the Iraq conflict, was a Junior ROTC cadet for four years at Truman High School in Taylor.

"I don't think her parents thought that when she joined the ROTC, she would die," he said.

"What I am debating is the ultimate goal."

more...

[stopthegop]

1. free choice would dictate it be offered ....

allowing people/parents to decide whether their kids enroll in JROTC....it's like a lot of things: if you don't like it, don't put your kids into it...

[el_gato]

2. it aint free when they are using my damn tax dollars to do it

[DevilsAdvocate2]

13. Tax dollars

Are also being used to fund the public school.

[lcordero]

3. better idea

How about reducing class sizes, getting textbooks, and lifting the overall academic standing before having money invested into a new program.

[stopthegop]

4. I believe the local school district does not pay for JROTC

...so it would not decrease funds for other uses

[xchrom]

5. local tax dollars, no

and these are people who aren't just against the war -- but like myself, against the whole military industrial complex. it's about wanting the size and influence of our military greatly reduced.

[Bozita]

6. School district pays half of teachers' salaries

http://www.mlive.com/news/sanews/index.ssf?/base/news-9/1075218673191600.xml


-snip-

The Marine Corps funds most of the cost, Haskell said.

"Buena Vista is responsible for half of the two teacher salaries," he said. "It's not too expensive. The Marines pay for the uniforms, text books, computers, copying equipment and the desk for the instructor."

-snip-

[stopthegop]

7. I stand corrected..thank you...

[Bozita]

11. At Taylor Truman, the ROTC teachers also demanded the health insurance ...

...package provided to the certified staff.

They were not happy with the one from the military.

[lcordero]

9. the Marine Corps don't pay for any of that

taxpayers do

[lcordero]

8. local funds or no local funds, those are still MY tax dollars that

are paying for JROTC.

[stopthegop]

10. true...and people's tax dollars pay for lots of things

some of those people don't like...it's unavoidable...
everyone can find at least one use of tax $$ they don't like..

[revcarol]

12. You don't see the JROTC ante-ing up rent for the classroom,

costs of electricity and heat, the cost of the janitor to clean the room. All costs to the district, which could better benefit from a program FOR students' interests, not AGAINST them.

[stopthegop]

14. Bingo!! that's it..

"program FOR students' interests, not AGAINST them"...this program would be bad because YOU think it's bad for the students...

would you be in favor of banning/dropping a program conservative parents thought was bad for students?

[havocmom]

15. Pre-WWII ROTC was common in schools

after the Great Depression, school funding was hurting, much like today.

I recall both my folks photos in their ROTC uniforms. If a studen wanted to be in band, they had to be in ROTC as that was how they managed to scrape enough $$ for band classes. Some choice!

I also recall watching my dad as he would look at the old high school yearbooks and run his finger lightly over photos of classmates who did not make it home from the war he managed to survive. It was a war that had to be fought, but so many young men from that one small school,,,

Once, I caught myself going over photos in my yearbooks. I saw my finger posed over the photo of a classmate that didn't come home from Nam. I threw the books out.

Some wars need to be fought and the losses are truly regrettable. Some do not need to be fought and the losses are tragic. Starving school funding then offering the 'help' of ROTC is more than mean and nasty, whether it is in 1940 or 2004. Getting people worked up with pride at seeing how handsome a son or daughter looks in uniform is step one in getting them to be invested in supporting whatever action wearing that uniform may demand. Get them suckered in at an emmotional level and they will be less likely to fight you on a logical level. It is psy-ops 101 and I wish the parents fighting it well.

[5thGenDemocrat]

16. Saginaw Arthur Hill alum here (MSchreader is another)

And I took a GED a month after I turned 17 and left AHHS (in my junior year) to enter -- wait for it -- the Army.
I will say this for the proposal -- the Saginaw Public Schools offer any number of extracurricular programs and all kinds of educational options. I consider JROTC to be just another option, and it has (by most accounts) worked very well out at Buena Vista High (which is another school district entirely).
If it was required that JROTC grads serve in the active military upon completion of the program, then certainly I would raise hell about it. But they aren't, and I think more discipline and responsibility among high schoolers is a good thing.
I couldn't wait to get out of Arthur Hill and join the military. I understand that not all youngsters are like me -- but enough are that JROTC provides another option and, better (IMHO), one that the school district --strapped for funds as it is -- doesn't have to provide out of its own pocket.
Frankly, I'm more upset that the district is planning to shut down the neighborhood junior high school five blocks from here and send the kids two or three miles to a facility just as old and just as obsolete. All in the name of economy, of course.
But JROTC? It doesn't bother me a bit. The kids who want to join it will join it -- nobody's being forced into it. And, like I said, I was at Fort Knox at the same age (and from the same socio-economic class) as these kids. I learned a lot about life and about myself in the process.
John
Finally, I'd note that in spite of Mark Kraych (who got smoked in the last city council election even though I personally voted for him), most people aren't nearly as up in arms over this proposal as the article might suggest. I suspect it'll go through rather easily.

[davsand]

17. How progressive IS Saginaw?

I was left with th impression that it was an island of progressives compared to the outer areas. But even with that, I didn't see a lot of the Birkenstock/sprout eating/tree hugger type stuff typically associated with liberals when I was up there. Did I miss something or is it fairly Dem--but mostly blue collar?

I'm not being snarky about it--but in no way did I consider it to be as liberal as Ann Arbor or any of the "college liberal" towns I've seen. I saw a lot of good hardworking folks who just happen to be Dems. I can see where that demographic would not be terribly upset by any program like a Jr.ROTC.

I live close to a haven of uber-liberal college folks and they'd stroke out over this--while the town I live in still sings Christmas carols at school--in GERMAN. I know the difference a community attitude can make!

John, Give them all a kiss for me, I'll be there in June!

Laura

[5thGenDemocrat]

18. Saginaw is very Democratic, but not particularly "liberal"

We tend to be more "Lyndon Johnson" type liberals here -- pro-civil rights, pro-equal opportunity, pro-union (it's a UAW town) and, yes, pro-military. Of course I'm generalizing -- I'm sure fellow Lumberjack MSchreader would have a much different take on this. But I'll flatter myself enough to say that I'm probably more representative of mainstream Saginaw political thought than is Marty the Marxist.
Like I said, the JROTC program doesn't much bother me if it does some good in providing some direction and discipline to these kids. There are too many homes in this town where dad isn't around, whether through divorce, or through neglect or just because he's at the Delphi plant 60 hours a week (so is mom, frequently). The military may not be the best possible stand-in, but it beats just about all the currently available alternatives.
The football stadium at the high school is named "Arthur Hill Memorial Stadium," but it doesn't memorialize Arthur Hill -- it memorializes the AHHS kids who died in WWI, II, Korea and Vietnam (and there are a bunch of them).
We certainly aren't as bright as the high school kids down in the People's Republic of Ann Arbor, but we are smart enough to read all the names on the plaques inside the stadium and to know what to sign up for and what to stay away from.
The military doesn't kill you -- wars do. There's a difference. I served in the Signal Corps and the only blood I ever shed came from paper cuts. But, had there been a JROTC at AHHS when I was there, I almost certainly would've signed up for it and, just maybe, would have stayed out of the service, having been provided an alternative. Then again, maybe not.
John
Looking forward to seeing you in June, Laura. So is Andy the Right Wing Republican and so are we all.
It is now 133 days, 16 hours and 50 minutes to FUNDAY X.