What a real universal health system would do for our economy

[Fovea]

Question: Why would we need guest workers? Are Americans too lazy to take hard jobs?

Answer: No. The real difficulty with low income jobs is not the low income, per se. It is the fact that these jobs do not provide health care, by and large.

If we did have a national health care universal access system, Americans who normally would have to eschew these jobs in favor of welfare would have a greater incentive to take a job that pays a fair wage. Further, if coupled with free tuition at a state college with a 3/1 year ratio could guarantee the opportunity to progress to millions that do not have such now.

It would also encourage the formation of small entrepreneurial enterprizes.

[ramapo]

1. Employment Freedom

Workers would be better able to persue new and better opportunities. Universal health would be a boon to entrepreneurs.

So many decisions are dictated by health insurance considerations.

I'd likely be doing something else today if not for the fact that I would not be able to purchase comparable health insurance to what I now have even if I was willing to pay the same hugh premium.

I'd have to pay from two to five times as much. Simply outrageous.

[blondeatlast]

2. You're on to something, I believe. My husband has the savvy

and know-how to start his own business, but we MUST have group health coverage. I have TWO chronic health conditions that require constant monitoring (insulin-dependent diabetes and a heart problem aggravated by frequent anemia).

I can't get private coverage--if I could, it would be prohibitively expensive.

I am 100% in favor of a single-payer, universal system. In fact, I'm considering starting a grassroots organization to push for it.

You in?

[Rainbowreflect]

3. I'm in.

There is no excuse for anyone in this country to be without health care.

[ramapo]

5. I'm in

but doesn't one exist already? Seems there's an organization for everything.

Single-payer, universal coverage. So simple. Employers should love it because it relieves them of a giant headache. Employees love it because they have freedom.

How could it possibly be more expensive (not dealing with the uninsured for the moment) than the mess that exists today?

Yes it will cost some billions to cover the uninsured but many of the uninsured are working and can pay somethingn towards insurance. It's not like their medical needs aren't paid for today. The govt pays in the most inefficient manner possible...when an uninsured person's problem becomes so severe they end up in an emergency room.

A government-administered program has been portrayed as the big boogeyman. Inefficient, bloated. Aren't social security checks processed fairly efficiently. After all the government doesn't need to make a profit. Government effectiveness and efficiency does not have to be an oxymoron.

[Hammie]

12. Simple?

Perhaps you could enlighten me. Since resources are limited, how would you ration care in this single payer system. Right now, medical is a pretty big fraction of our GDP without everyone getting all the care that they want. If medical care is free won't people consume much more of it?

[HootieMcBoob]

18. We already pay more per capita than any other developed nation

on health care. Yet we still have about 45 million people without any insurance at all. Don't you think that if we adopted a system similar to some of these other countries we'd be much better off in the long run? We're the only nation in the developed world that doesn't have universal health-care. We also have the highest infant mortality rate!

We're like the third world country of industrialized nations. It's embarrassing and immoral.

[camero]

29. It's already rationed too

Just think of how many people go to the docs with an injury that can only be seen through an MRI (soft tissue injuries, etc.) and don't get them. Just one example. I'm sure there are others.

[ramapo]

40. Not free

Everyone (mostly) pays. Single payer means there aren't dozens or more insurance companies, hmos, ppos, whatever, processing bills.

There would still be deductables, copays, differnt options from different providers. They wouldn't fight nn number of payers for payment.

Single payer is different from universal care. Two very related problems with different answers.

Universal care will cost. But who pays now when people without insurance require care? Proper medical care early can reduce health costs later.

[Fovea]

42. medical is a pretty big fraction of our GDP without everyone getting all t

Google Economy of Scale.

How much health care would a person consume?
Enough to be well. Non-essential services could still be private, but essential care and preventive care would be provided.

It is easy to count the hospital bills, but also weigh in the preventive care that might keep a working father or mother gainfully employed, instead of suddenly disabled at 45, such as I was. When you figure what is happening now with over 40 million working Americans uninsured, the hidden costs are quite possibly staggering.

[loftycity]

48. Send your bills in to Bush and Congress

Everyone should do this. They would be buried in paperwork.

[skippysmom]

4. Universal health care -- yes!

And not just because it's the right thing to do. I think it would be such a cost savings to companies of all sizes. Fewer HR people, for one.

[SoCalDem]

6. Employers would LOVE it

Can you imagine the lessening of paperwork?? And they would be able to give raises to their employees that would really be raises..not just an increase equal to what the premiums increased by..

Now, when the emplyers' share goes up, they almost have to consider THAT the raise..so the employee gets NOTHING extra..

The person working could have an extra box on their paycheck to withhold their share of the universal coverage cost, and that would be low because EVERYONE in the US would be paying it too.. Poor people could get a card that covered them (much like medicare now)..

It's too simple..that's why they hate it :(

[waylon]

7. The problem with that is

the wages would go down, considerably. Taxes would raise, considerably. The cost of everything would go up. It becomes an endless cycle. If you factor in health coverage for the kid making your Big Mac, you are talking about an expensive lunch! The money has to come from somewhere, guess where? I dont mind paying my share but .... the ugly truth is, I cant afford universal health care.

[Lars39]

8. We can afford health care for everybody.

Cut the military budget and the money is found.

[amazona]

10. then why do the europeans have a higher standard of living?

This is the problem with Americans -- they don't travel and they don't realize how they've been lied to. The nations with universal health care have a higher standard of living than we do, including a longer life span. And they have public transport and many other benefits too. And their tax burden is not any greater...well, not for middle class people, it isn't.

I guess if you are a multi-millionaire, then you would be expected to pay a lot more taxes than you do in the U.S. But I'm guessing very few people on this board fall in that category and those that do SHOULD be paying more than they do now, a lot more. I'm sick of reading about million dollar weddings. IF everyone paid their fair share, it wouldn't be a problem.

I have an income in the high four figures and I pay out more proportionately in taxes than any millionaire. There are no loopholes for me. And please don't tell me that I can make $400 or $600 a year or whatever by popping out a baby -- I am not an idiot and I know perfectly well that I'd spend more than that in the first month!

[waylon]

13. Higher standard of living?

Sorry, my fellow American (assumption), but I have traveled extensively, EXTENSIVELY.. (europe, australia, s. america) and I have yet to find a higher standard of living, anywhere. Unless of course, YOU are talking about the jetset crowd. I hear the French Riviera is very, very nice, but I dont consider that a fair "standard of living" comparison. And their tax burdens ARE higher, throughout europe. And they pay more for nearly everything, health care aside.

On that note, although our health care system is wrought with ridiculous profiteering, we still do offer the very best health care in the world. That says alot about a private health care system as opposed to nationalized care. I would rather pay a higher price for the best care than sacrifice quality.


I probably dont make as much as you so every penny counts on my end. I cant afford to pay more for a hamburger or an oil change and Im afraid a nationalized health care system would affect those goods/services the most.

[Lars39]

17. You are paying a higher price, and if you lose your health insurance

you have no quality, either.

Perhaps their tax dollars aren't being used as foolishly as ours. Putting all our eggs into the military basket shortchanges the citizenry. Offering the best healthcare(which statement in itself is debatable) is not the same as every citizen being able to partake in the best. When 43+ million people in the US do not have any insurance to even access basic care, the latest hotshot machine or technique doesn't do a lot of good for them.

[waylon]

20. Not quite accurate

What you are saying is that if you dont have insurance, you wont receive any medical services. To be sure, a hospital would probably turn you down for a heart transplant if you didnt have adequate coverage but you can get "basic care" regardless of your coverage.

Its hard to argue the military expenditures but, its also hard to sell. Ask people if they would scale back military spending by 50% so that we can finance univeral coverage and I would bet that the reaction would not be favorable.

[Lars39]

21. You might get emergency care, until you're stabilized.

Then the almighty dollar rears its head. If the hospital has run thru it's charitable funds, you'll probably be sent home. If you have an ailment that you need to go to the doctor for, they want their money upfront. Usually 2 days' wages(min. wage). I think you'd be surprised at the answer you'd get about cutting military budget for healthcare. After you've lost your car or house because of your medical bills, you might not give a damn if the military has another bomb.

[waylon]

24. Public spending on healthcare is higher in the US

than just about anywhere. The problem is that we tend to want the best, and that costs. We spend more public dollars on health care than most other countries, but we also spend WAY more of our own money.

[Lars39]

27. Yep, those pharmeceutical companies and insurance companies

barely scrape by, don't they? :silly: Lobbyists have made sure that the average citizen and public agencies will pay through the nose for whatever product and services are recieved.

[loftycity]

39. If you do not have Health Insurance you pay 500% more for

services. That is a fact. And now they have body attachment if you do not pay your bills. HMO's can have you thrown in jail for non-payment.
We are trying to have healthcare for all--this is not a Casino where we all have to gamble with our lives...
Check Democracy Now's article on HealthCare these stories (above) are there.
I have lived in Europe for five years and their health care is great!!

[Fovea]

46. waylon

We offer the best health care in the world?
Man, what are you smoking?

[loftycity]

47. The WTO rates the US Healthcare system below about 30 countries

countries. Go to the World Health Organizations Web site and you'll see.

[camero]

49. I'm wondering that myself

The US is ranked 37th in the WHO rankings.

Link: http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2000/08/28/gvsa0828.htm

Measured by life expectancy adjusted for the likelihood of a range of disabilities.

1. Japan: 74.5 years
2. Australia: 73.2 years
3. France: 73.1 years
4. Sweden: 73.0 years
5. Spain: 72.8 years

24. United States: 70.0 years
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Financial fairness
Measured by the equal distribution of the health cost faced by each household.

1. Colombia
2. Luxembourg
3. Belgium
4. Djibouti
5. Denmark

54. United States
----------------------------------------------------------------------
High spending does not necessarily translate into a better health system, says the World Health Organization. Among the 15 top-rated nations, the amount spent on health care as a percentage of the overall economy and on a per-person basis varied widely.

Health spending as Per capita
percentage of GDP spending Population
------------------ ---------- ----------
1. France 9.8% $2,369 59 million
2. Italy 9.3% $1,855 57 million
3. San Marino 7.5% $2,257 26,000
4. Andorra 7.5% $1,368 75,000
5. Malta 6.3% $551 386,000
6. Singapore 3.1% $876 3.5 million
7. Spain 8.0% $1,071 39 million
8. Oman 3.9% $370 2.4 million
9. Austria 9.0% $2,277 8.2 million
10. Japan 7.1% $2,373 126 million
11. Norway 6.5% $2,283 4.4 million
12. Portugal 8.2% $845 9.8 million
13. Monaco 8.0% $1,264 33,000
14. Greece 8.0% $905 10 million
15. Iceland 7.9% $2,149 279,000

37. U.S.A. 13.7% $4,187 276 million

[PA Democrat]

11. We are already paying a substantial price

for the large number of uninsured people.

People without health insurance don't get preventative care. By the time they do seek medical attention, it is often more expensive to treat a severe illness or condition.

People without health insurance typically use the emergency room to get medical help rather than a primary care doctor. This is a much more expensive source of medical care. And hospitals pass the cost of caring for those who are unable to pay on to you and me.

People without health insurance miss more work and school than people who can afford to seek medical treatment. This translates into lost worker productivity, and kids who aren't learning in school because they're either not there or are too sick to pay attention.

Every other developed country provides universal health care to its citizens. But health care costs are I think 40 % higher here than in the most expensive country with universal health care.

I'll see if I can find the link.

[HootieMcBoob]

19. How does every other country in the industrialized world do it?

Are we so incompetent that we can't even take care of our own?

[Kanary]

22. Actually, that is not the case

The cost to employers goes down... not a whole lot, but it does go down.

Please read up on the whole issue. There is so much to this, it doesn't lend itself to short posts on a forum.

Kanary

Kucinich 2004!

[ramapo]

41. Burger kid doesn't need it

Same rules as today...covered under the parent's plan. No parents? That's a different story. Who would deny the kid health insurance then?

[Fovea]

44. What mechanism drives wages down?

Particularly if the employers have less coming out of their kitty.
Your share will be, I suspect, lower than your current copay.
Further, the Military and its contractors waste and simply lose track of more money than this would cost.

Further, what makes you think the taxes would be regressive like sales taxes?

Sorry, I don't buy this old canard.

[Nikia]

51. Why would wages go down?

My employer is paying something like $3-$4 per hour for each employees wages for their portion of health insurance. Perhaps, wages would actually go up. That's $3-$4 that they could be putting directly into my pocket instead.

[amazona]

9. big business likes it better this way

If you were a big corporation, would you want to compete on a level playing field with the smaller more agile guys or even a self-employed entrepreneur? Hell no. They like it this way. Consolidation continues, and you either work for a big company or you're not fully deserving of human rights or even life in the U.S.

[PA Democrat]

14. Comparing the US to other developed countries

Here's the link

http://home.earthlink.net/~almyatt/u_h_care.htm

An excerpt:

"The corporate model of health care has already failed. It has failed to control costs, failed to provide choice of doctors, and even failed to maintain quality of care. It has succeeded only in providing profits to insurers by shifting costs to the insured. Medicare HMOs, touted as the salvation of Medicare a few years ago, were not allowed to shift costs to the insured, so many have simply stopped trying to compete with regular Medicare coverage. The standard Medicare program is far from perfect. People covered by it would certainly benefit from real prescription drug coverage. Yet with all its flaws, the government administers Medicare for less than 5 cents out of each dollar while private insurance spends 25 % of premiums on administrative expenses.

Facts show the superior efficiency of the "free market" is, in this case, just a myth.

In Australia, Austria, Belgium, Britain, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Israel, Japan, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Spain and Sweden, the annual per-person cost of health care is about half of the cost in the United States. Half, with all costs counted in United States dollars. In France, Germany and Norway, the cost is over 50% of the US annual cost, but less than 60 %. In all the other countries, it is less than 50%. "

[Cleita]

15. Good post and add quality child care in there too.

Many women don't go to work because they can't afford the child care while they are there and welfare is an easier option for them to stay at home with the kids.

[Kanary]

30. Yes, Cleita -- *Quality* child care

Child care workers are paid less than parking lot attendants!

Yet we claim how much we care about our children.

If child care workers had guaranteed health care, that would compensate for low pay, and we'd have more quality child care to choose from.

Kanary

Kucinich 2004!

[loftycity]

16. Universal would be a boom to the economy

First Employer's really should not have to carry the load. The insurance companies are killing them and giving us slow death.
Plus it will enable people to work where they want to work. Move where they want to move.
Right now the insurance companies have us boxed in.
It would free up Medical research to do what they do best inovate new approachs to health.
If you insure everyone you have it covered. Everyone would pay in a certain amount and the scales go to the younger part of the population usually does mnot get that sick and the older do. IT balances out.
The reason there is no healthcare now is because the population is older and the insurance companies are like casinos "the house always wins." Sure everything was fine 15 years ago--now that people are getting ill...your out.
No it has to change and it is the most important issue.
IF we as an entire country do not have excellent healthcare; where does empathy come from for others in a world if we are sick and not covered? How can you feel and want to help others;when you can't even help yourself or your family?
Our Universal Healthcare system will be the best in the world it will shine. It will take care of itself--it's better than giving a 550 billion check for whatever to the HMOs and Drug Companies.

[YNGW]

23. My Biggest Concern Is This...

Isn't anyone worried that the government will have access to all our private medical records? I mean, maybe not at first, but if the government is paying for our medical expenses, how long until they want access to what they're paying for?

I see a time when all our private medical information is in a national database where some bureaucrat or some administration with evil intentions can use our our medical records against us, possibly even supply such information to potential employers such as global mega-corporations or use it to ration out expensive medical procedures. It's the "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you" thing. I don't trust them. It does concern me greatly.

[Lars39]

26. They've got 'em now if they want them.

Just one example of when they can demand 'em: bush* comes to a town to speak at a college campus where there's a teaching hospital. The SS can demand all the records of the hospital.

[patdem]

25. This is what happens when you have no health care...personal experience

I have had pain in my side since I was 17 years old...many years ago. I have been to doctors when I had health care paid for and was told it was either a 'spastic colon' (Irratable bowl) or a gall bladder problem. I had an upper GI and a lower GI and nothing. Well for the last 10 years I have not had health insurance and my stomach pains got worse with age. On 1/25 I had a siezure due to pain and many many many sleepless nights and had my husband call 9-11 (the only time I have ever called 9-11 for me) and got the bill from the hospital for about 4 hours and a cat scan of my brain $2,500+.

Well, two days latter the pain made me believe I might be having an appendicitis but turns out I had a gall stone. I had to go into the hospital and have an operation to remove said gall stone which turned out to be the size between a ping pong ball and a golf ball...the largest anyone in the operating room had ever seen. It was presented to me in a container similar to one for soft cream cheese...because the stone was so damned big. When they removed my gall bladder the technicians in the operating room declared "It's a boy!"...LOL!!!! I was told I should have had an operation about 20 years ago (when I had insurance!!!)

To make a long story short. If 4 hours in the emergency room cost $2,500+ what does a 2 day stay in the hospital plus surgery cost? I have not gotten the bill yet!!!

I am sure all the bills I get will exceed my annual income!!!

[loftycity]

28. Send your Bills to Bush

Since he was generous with billions of dollars. Send him the bill and send a copy to your congress peopple. Everyone should do this.
If you don't have insurance you got nothing to lose.

[camero]

31. Good idea. Hey lofty

:hi:

[loftycity]

32. I was just going to email you

:hi:
This is a good one! Emailed LiberalHistorian!
I'm still working on it

[camero]

34. I've sent out a few more e-mails

But no answer yet. It's gonna take time. Democratic Kid said he gave our stories to Sen. Kennedy.

It's here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=106&topic_id=5283

[loftycity]

36. I thought the Dem Kid did a good job there!

Going to a Wellstone get together tomorrow.

[camero]

45. Cool

This thing has got some legs. Little did I realize. :)

[patdem]

33. Good idea...I will do exactly that!!! THANKS!

I am basically screwed...I am sure the cost of my hospital bill will be more than what I paid for my house!...I am screwed...I am screwed...I am screwed!!!!

I will send my bills to my Democratic Representative and both Republican Senators...thanks for the suggestion...bush*...it will never get past rove* who could not care less about my plight!

[loftycity]

35. Keep posting

And look for Camero and LiberalHistorian--Liberal Historian can tell you how to deal with your bills. And Camero has good links to all of this.

[HootieMcBoob]

37. A similar thing happened to a friend of mine recently

He had to have emergency surgery for a perforation in his large intestine. Of course, he has no health insurance since we were all laid off from the place we worked two years ago. He says he's "bought a luxury automobile". Meaning that that's what it's going to end up costing him. It's a shame.

[patdem]

43. That is what my husband said...'we bought a car'..but I think it is more

like a house? If 4 hours in emergency is $2,500 + what is 6 hours in emergency, plus 2 days in the hospital, plus surgery, plus the doctor, plus the guy who put you to sleep? I do not begrudge anyone this money...they made me better, but I am sure it will cost more than I paid for my house.

Of course most luxury cars cost more than I paid for my house!!!

[Cleita]

38. A friend of mine did this.

She had no health insurance and ended up in the hospital with something that was like Legionnaire's Disease that she almost died from. (They didn't know what it was because it was too late to take a culture, or some excuse like that.) But she had pneumonia-like symptoms and eventually got a $25,000 hospital bill for her cure.

She got on the phone and begged them to please explain why it was so much. Begging poverty and no health insurance, she got the hospital to agree to cut the bill down about a third, still a lot though and to let her pay it off monthly.

What happens is that hospitals charge private patients far more than insurance patients because they figure that the guy who pays will cover the two who don't pay. So see if you can negotiate a lower bill when you receive it. I would try to negotiate that emergency room bill too.

[ramapo]

50. Always bargain...kind of sick but it works

Most hospitals and doctors will take what they can get. If your bill is $200 and you can send them $100 today (and no more) they will often take that rather than your offer to pay $10/month for 20 months.

You should always negotiate, just like the insurance companies. Remember they usually get paid peanuts from insurance.