David Horowitz said we attacked Iraq for refusing to disarm.

[Eric J in MN]

This was on a "Dennis Miller" show broadcast late tonight but taped last week.

No one on the "varsity panel" asked how Iraq could disarm weapons it didn't have.

[Chicago Democrat]

1. Horowitz can eat me.

Im a Danish

[mmm]

2. Does Horowitz EVER tell the truth? Of course not.

[oasis]

3. Whoreowitz was a radical lefty until he discovered how much he could make

by trashing the left. He i$ the lowe$t form of $cum.

[Michael Harrington]

4. I've read a couple of his New Left era books...

He was a schmuck then and he's a schmuck now. The New Left's answer to Podhoretz. No loss for the Left, no loss at all.

[onecitizen]

5. It's kind of hard to disarm........

what you don't have. Sheeesh!

[Norquist Nemesis]

11. Said the same thing to my DH last night

Asked him how can you prove a negative. His response was, "Oh poor, Saddam. He's just been treated so unfairly."

Oh the joys of living with a Con. *sigh*

[JanMichael]

6. Man I'm glad he left the "Left". Good riddance.

How does a lying sack of shit like that get so well published/heard anyway?

Osmosis?

[Loonman]

7. Whorowitz will say anything to keep his job

n/t

[Solomon]

8. Miller's really scraping the barrel if he's got people like

Horowitz on his show.

[NYObjectivist]

9. Tackling Horowitz' ideas, not the person.

I'm a newbie.. and I don't want to be jumped on.. but, DH is one citizen who had personal outrage of the revolution.. from the descriptions in "Hating Whitey".. a civil rights "believer" could become frightened when ruthless power is revealed. George Orwell was similarly disillusioned.. Do you all routinely insult him?
DH is a real fire-eater, but he rails against conspiracies.. At least mentioning that he is an enemy of anti-american radicals, and so is at least NOT a traitor to America is worth getting into the discussion.
I don't know about you all.. but there really was ( is) a communist conspiracy against ALL western democracies. At the least, its worth considering whether some of our icons have feet of clay.

[leesa]

10. I really can't make heads or tails out of most of what you just said

But I suspect the "communist conspiracy" is similar to the "Muslim terrorist" bit. Simply a con job designed to allow the sale of arms for bogus "wars" and a reason for the US to grab resources and land. After the Muslims, who will be the next bogieman?? Got to have an enemy if you want to make billions selling arms to make war, and then make billions getting contracts to fix what was broken. It's a sweet deal, the Bushes have been in the business for over a hundred years....and the communism one was a long runner.

[NYObjectivist]

19. what, there ARE no threats?

Consider that there WAS ( is) a communist conspiracy.. It really is history, and independent references acknowledge the widespread threat.
( one example?: Vietnam had an active communist organization from the mid-30's.. they were responsible for typical terrorist revolution. The resistance to french/US puppet regimes also was conducted using established soviet operations.. The victory by them in 1975 allowed them to scour the countryside and exterminate and "readjust" their society by the millions.. again the NYTimes is a record of evidence)
Please also consider the historical record of civilizations and nations actively ( covertly) struggling for power. Europe, Asia, Africa, AND the middle East have multi-generational "wars"..
Were you aware that the anti-western arab movement has been explicitly working against us since before WWI?
That they have repeatedly SCREAMED in public discourse and violent acts that they, indeed ARE a conspiracy at war with our way of life?
Come on.. I hate corporatism and McDonalds.. I don't want to drain blood from your children..
Are you aware they call for martyrs to kill our soldiers?
I don't think the republicans have their hands in the backs of the ayatollahs, do you?

[not systems]

20. I doubt it.

You say "The resistance to french/US puppet regimes also was conducted using established soviet operations.."

I think this is not true.

The people of Vietnam fought to be free of imperial domination by
the Japanese, French and Americans.

To say that this was because of soviet control is simply breathing the
fumes of the propagandists that justified our genocidal colonial war there.

Not recognizing the legitimate nationalist impulses of all peoples to
not be rules by others is folly.

It was folly in Vietnam and it is folly in Iraq today.

[NYObjectivist]

26. the communist counter-gov WAS real.

Sorry, but numerous sources ( including "Fire in the Lake" by Francis ....) as well as the Pentagon Papers, chronicle the active soviet style organization.
More importantly, and the core of MY anti-collectivism is the free use of violent supression of non-communist citizens ( soviet records of their own conduct in the gulags should be enough.. but to read the NYTimes relate present day(!!!) work camps in the residual soviet gov't indicates the enduring changes that this kind of revolution brings.
In all the corporate and economic dominance the west brings to these "developing" countries, overt and ongoing genocide and stagnation are NOT political policy.
.. DH ( to stay on topic) IS a progressive and a liberal in the old, classic sense. We all are. We are the children of the West, and we are individual and sovereign souls.
But even our ancestors didn't always feel that way. Once we killed any who spoke heresy. Yet who would deny that God and Human Goodness have been our civilizations grail for 500 years?
Maybe we aren't explaining things to ourselves well.

[not systems]

29. Who would deny that God and Human Goodness...

have been our civilizations grail for 500 years?

The tens and hundreds of millions of people subjugated and enslaved
in the name of Western progress through out the world.

An example are the Native Americans dispossessed of a continent by your progress.

Maybe you think the dead should be forgotten so you can have your illusions of freedom and righteousness.

I deny.

[AG78]

30. Who could deny what?

God and Human Goodness have been our civilizations grail for 500 years? When?

[JanMichael]

13. Using Orwell and Horowitz in the same breath is disingenuous at best.

Orwell certainly had his issues with the Communists (Not the POUM, he admired them and the Anarchists once he realized that the USSR was actually stopping the Revolution from happening.) in the Spainsh Revolution/Civil War but he remained a Socialist.

Horowitz however is an opportunist and intentionally obtuse to rightwing lies about the Econopmy, the Invasion, and Bush in general.

To try somehow to equate the two together is simply wrong.

Ciao.

[Bridget Burke]

14. Sorry, I have no icons (at least, not since Johnny Cash died)

I do not worship graven images.

Back in the 60's, most of the far-left firebrands I knew were trust-fund rebels. Most of these repented & are all for lower taxes. Some of the militant ones were true believers--they may have mellowed a bit, but didn't turn into rightist a**holes. NONE of them were members of the communist conspiracy; I would have considered none of them "anti-american".

And what's wrong with being "a civil rights 'believer'"?

Horowitz was a scumbag then & he's a scumbag now.

Also, I recommend you work on your prose style; it's fairly opaque.

[NYObjectivist]

17. Grammar and vulgarity

Gee, thanks for taking it easy..
Okay.. I'm trying to introduce a more impartial tone... That kind get arrows from all sides..
..Bridget, I CAN take blunt criticism, and I do need to improve.
I type /post as I think. This makes for misconnected topics, and unclear examples.
( eh?)
Although "fairly opaque" means "nominally transparent", doesn't it?
I didn't put down civil rights.. The remarks earlier asserted that DH had NO principles.. I qotated it in recognition of you all having contempt for him.
The book I mentioned ( no more free plugs) relates his personal history, and how he came to be disillusioned with the Black Panther Party, and conduct of violence and lies.
.. Not everyone is cut out to be violent revolutionaries, and I am just saying that consider that kind of fear and loathing to turn one person..
As far as the collectivists.. history is real, and the soviets themselves were proud of their schemes.
By definition, these conspiracies are secret.. skepticism is reasonable, but conduct and results should also be relevant, right?
SO Saul Alinsky, Tom Hayden, Jane Fonda, and the Rosenbergs DIDN'T work against our nation?
I mean come on.. The needs of citizens in a modern society can't be solved with rabid capitalism.. even the "maharushie" isn't saying that..
but radical activism almost always demands fanatic allegiance to some ideas we HAVE seen lead to dictatorships.
DH is a Jeremiah, and no fun to wade through.. but some hidden connections SHOULD be revealed.

[not systems]

18. Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda are American heroes.

The Vietnam war was wrong and morally abject opposing it was patriotic.

[NYObjectivist]

21. being against the war, and being pro-American are NOT the same thing.

Propaganda for the enemy..
and political demonstrations HELPED kill fellow citizens..
Speaking of oppurtunistic reversers.. It is JFKerrey the young social climber at that 1970's rally, isn't it?..
Now lets be fair. Vietnam WAS us being on the wrong side and backing the wrong faction.. but as Americans we aren't supposed to have abandoned Asians to collectivism..
Right or Left.. there are a LOT of graves filled with communist intentions...
But wait, Hayden and Fonda are heroes.. people who get education deferments are bad.. Loathing fighting so much ( and in my schoolyard that was called a wimp )a resistor SHOULD write to authorities.. but slouching out of work is a greater offense.
You know, picking on the people and avoiding points and conclusions isn't helping.

[not systems]

23. Political demonstrations saved fellow citizens.

In Vietnam we were not on the wrong side we were the wrong side.

No doubt many graves are filled with communist intentions...
but 57000 Americans are dead and 3+ million Vietnamese are
dead because of your idealogical kins obsession with seeing
a red behind every national Independence movement in the
last 50 years.

"You know, picking on the people and avoiding points and conclusions isn't helping."

What?

[NYObjectivist]

28. cross thoughts

Don't get me wrong.. I was born in 1960.. I was young, but not unaware.. The tragedy of Vietnam was all the ignorance and lies ( by all sides of this orwellian nightmare )as well as these highlighted casualties.
But you aren't upset that the communist victory there and in Cambodia,and Laos, and Burma resulted in far more corpses?
Supposedly in pursuit of self-rule.
By the way,
picking on the messenger, is mocking warnings of REAL communist murders, and you not naming ANY
Nationalist Independence movement that WASN'T a communist front,
or soon taken over by worse criminals.

[not systems]

32. Picking on the messenger?

You?

How about the ANC they were a nationalist Independence movement and communist.

Yet I think most people recognize the justice of their cause.

Do you?

[NYObjectivist]

37. ANC?

If you are referring to the S African struggle, and the other legitimate calls for freedom from gang rule,..
Just naming it does not justify the example.. Oppressed people who allow criminal leaders to commit atrocities are NO longer noble victims. They are political animals and have picked the rules of their especial struggle.
The consequences of their philosophies is that the continued atrocities and counter bigotry in the region is getting worse..
AND the economic system has been faltering since their independence.. like all the revolutions.. their only product are corpses.

[not systems]

40. "Oppressed people who allow criminal leaders to commit atrocities...

are NO longer noble victims."

Wow.

I can imagine how you feel about Sharon and his government.

"like all the revolutions.. their only product are corpses."

and democratic representation for millions of formerly disenfranchised
black South Africans but I guess you have other priorities.

[NYObjectivist]

42. pigeonholing opposition

No.. the Afrikaaners ( who were< and are > NOT all neo-nazi's) are not my heroes.
"formerly disenfranchised".. now THATS euphimism..
No.. I didn't want the decadent remains of european diamond oligarchs to remain in power. There in The Congo, or Vietnam.. but there should have been , and should now be more than one kind of alternative.
.. As far as Israel, Sharon, and social democracies of the european mixed-economy model...
.. I have had criticisms of the balkanised political process whenever religious parties ( shades of theocracy ) hold sway
.. Comparatively speaking, though.. I don't like the grandson of the pro-nazi grand mufti of Jerusalem ( thats Arafat for those unaware )and I sympathise with them.

[not systems]

44. "formerly disenfranchised"

From: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=disenfranchised&r=67

adj : deprived of the rights of citizenship especially the right to vote

Is not a "euphemism" it means exactly what I intended.

I can see that you have a variety of ideas about thing listed in
the above post and we probably could agree on some things. I do
think that you should reassess you blanket dismissal of all
national Independence movements as fronts for soviet power.
If the US had sided with these movements against colonialism
then "more than one kind of alternative" might have emerged.
Instead we sided with the colonialist and polarized the
world between communism and capitalism.

[not systems]

16. There was (is) WMD also so let us be "objective" right?

Communist conspiracy please give me a break.

I suppose you think Ann Culter has it right about
Joe McCarthy getting a bad rap also.

[NYObjectivist]

31. Soviet records

I presume that the thousands of soviet records revealed since the collapse mean nothing to you.
Have you actually spoken to any european immigrants? Come on..
The American nation may not be doing everyhing right..
Leaders of both parties are an embarassment.. where are these polymaths of modern society?
Until the supra-men ( women) rise up, and lead the way.. we keep trying to improve our grade.. all while raising the standard.
( we're agreed so far, right?).. The opposition endorses and demands all the repressive things we reject. Name a communist ( read: socialist )regime that didn't bleed its own citizens,
routinely?

[drdigi420]

22. hahahahahaha

you sound like reagan

the only 'communist conspiracy' going on was 'how do we eat and keep up with the US-led arms buildup?'

answer: they didn't

the 'cold war' was won LONG before reagan was president, the USSR was broken in the early 70s. The US knew it too, we just didn't want to end the cash cow for defense contractors.

[noiretextatique]

24. dupe eom

[NYObjectivist]

33. Quoting FDR

Good relevance.. Isn't he the guy who turned an income tax on "income" ,
into a withholding tax on every citizens wages?
Wow, talk about a government hand in every pocket, huh?
p.s.
( conspiracy theories STILL insist that FDR knew about Pearl Harbor)

[not systems]

34. FDR was a great man.

People like you who want to replace the social democracy created by FDR
that defeated fascism and communism with the system of unrestrained
capitalism that created both are blind to the true history of this nation.

[NYObjectivist]

36. people making sweeping remarks

In fact, simplifying, and broadbrushing extremely complicated events and eras misserves us, the citizenry of a modern civilization. But I realize you meant well.
Criticising political leaders and their policies is not wrong. Leaping to the conclusions that FDR defeated communism, or that America ever had unrestrained capitalism, OR that I am blind to the numerous strains and themes in history, is laughably weak.
No one could deny that his administration had many effects , not all were performed at peak efficiency, and politically, he was far too pragmatic.

[not systems]

41. Leaping to conclusions.

I said "social democracy" defeated communism not FDR.

It did so by reducing the predatory aspects of raw capitalism
creating a society where all members could progress together
with the greatest inequities smoothed.

I did not say you were blind to "the numerous strains and themes in history"
but to the positive contributions of FDR.

You don't like social security was the conclusion I drew from
your FDR comments.

[noiretextatique]

25. so...was he scared of black people before or after

he embraced the black panthers? :eyes: seems like it was before. his romantic notions got dashed, and now he is the bitter, racist lunatic that always lurked within. sad and pathetic...without the slightest trace of anything approaching a principle.

[NYObjectivist]

35. why we should read more

Why, yes.. he was in the upper end of things until some murders of disagreeing members, and THEN the coverups and other upsetting details.. Whatever happened.. the idea that deaths and violence were becoming real is something we can empathise with.
In the books he writes about his families history and how he believed in the changes we needed in this nation.
He IS a partisan and bombastic voice.. but disregarding or assuming that all of DH is oppurtunism,
without actually reading him...
loses what outrages and indignities he has since revealed.
( after all we all agree, right or left.. we must be ever-vigilant of our representatives.)

[noiretextatique]

38. poor, wittle david

i have read his rag "front page." i even had the displeasure of having him respond to a letter i wrote in which i described him as a bitter, pathetic, dishonest racist re: his screed on reparations, which is pure fantasy and delusion.
why, yes...he was in the upper end of things until some murders...then, he was whitebread and pure the driven snow again. some of his former friends believe (and i tend to agree with them) that horowitz never took responsibility for HIS PART in what ultimately happened.
he is the very epitome of hypocrisy. it's no wonder some embrace him...he is an american classic, in a perverse and twisted way.

[Jacobin]

12. These guys are obviously missing their "irony gene"

I mean, how else could you explain this blather?

[kispoko]

15. hmmm....

was that the same show where he said that wmds were never/not (can't remember which of those he said, not that it's still not batshit insane either way) the reason for the war?

no shit folks.... i actually saw him say that.

not that we should be surprised though, these people will say anything with absolutely no shame..... but just the effrontery to say *that*, ya know?

[NYObjectivist]

39. check your records..not the pundits.

The Iraqi chapter of The Down with Jews and Americans club ( AKA baathists)are ONE of a large, hidden, non NBC equipped violent fraternities..
( skull and crossbones for real)
Sometimes the criminals just can't be tolerated any more. They just refuse to stay quiet..
And if you ask our local ally in the region.. Iraq's regime ( nor any of the other radical anti-jewish orgs.)didn't need NBC devices to be deadly.
We are not going to change the rank and file of our nation's bureaucratic, ivy-league elite.. at least not quickly..
and the arabs pride themselves in remembering transgressions.
So sorry, but once the police are clobbered.. all bets are off.
( and I don't know about YOU, but the gloves should have been off in the Iranian hostage crisis..)

[chelaque liberal]

27. Orwell nailed it, didn't he?

And all of the farm animals read the sign that was different than they remembered it and they think "Oh my. I guess I was wrong."

[swinney]

43. Thanks. Great point. Stick em up to armless person?

Thanks.