Are you a Christian?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

Poll question: Are you a Christian?

[mike_c]

1. dyed in the wool atheist here....

eom

[mopinko]

46. devout atheist

get a lot of grief sometimes for putting it this way. but when i get into one of those situations where it would be so nice to hand it over to whoever, i say a little "prayer" to myself.

[MrPrax]

55. Hey that's my line...LOL

Devout Atheist!!

I don't get grief...if anything if I say it loudly enough, then I get to avoid 'religious' raps, which of course are not discussions, but long sermons and monologues, on how evil or 'lost' I am...

Although I am not 'anti-Christian'...I treat most religious thought with equal contempt...the small part of religious liturgies (like the 'golden rule') are, IMHO, commonsense and rarely require the enforcement of a vast cosmology

[arwalden]

304. Born-Again Atheist

Oh that has multiple meanings for different folks. I mostly say it to piss off the fundies. --- But truthfully, when I FINALLY let go of my Christian beliefs, it was indeed a "rebirth" and a new POSITIVE outlook on life.

-- Allen

[Bandit]

2. I didn't answer your poll

I believe in virtually everything Christ said when it comes to how you relate to others. I just don't believe in God in the same context as most "Christians" do. I am.

[Terwilliger]

3. not really

I believe in certain Christian concepts (not necessarily Christian, mind you) but I don't believe in god.

[NeonLX]

4. Yes (in an agnostic sense).

I can't claim to know everything there is to know. I don't believe that all of God's knowledge and splendor can be crammed inside the covers of a book written by men. I also don't think we humans can gain perfect and total knowledge, though we can darned sure try...

If you claim that the Bible is the "be all and end all", it sounds dangerously close to idolatry to me (worshipping the book rather than God).

[beyurslf]

5. atheist

[Walt Starr]

19. I don't beliefve in atheism, and I'm not too sure about agnosticism

:evilgrin:

/jk

[JanMichael]

6. No. I'm not any type of Theist. That said I don't care if other...

...people take that route so long as they stay out of my uterus!

Well, not mine...

PS- Nor am I a Deist. I hold no belief in Deities. I suppose on a cold night in Budapest I'm an Existentialist.

[madrchsod]

7. i believe in what

was attributed to Christ in the first three books of the new testament ,as to the rest ,Paul can rot in hell for all i care. the old testament-nice read of the history of the tribes of those lands

[Coyul]

8. Theravadin Buddhist Here...

...Purji is Wiccan

Christianity 'ain't' us!

[Kazak]

9. More of a pantheist, really...

or a naturalist maybe.

[Selwynn]

10. If you want an answer then you should give your def of what "xian" means

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

12. I leave the definition to those responding

I guess I could have worded it - "do you consider yourself to be a Christian". I will allow each respondent to decide for themselves.

[Selwynn]

203. .

[Az]

14. Xian/Xtian

Is an abbreviation often used by Bible Copiests and Clergy over the centuries. It is not a slur. It is an established abbreviation of Christian. Similar to Xmas in usage.

[rucky]

40. Ancient capital of China durning the Qin Dynasty?

[Az]

47. Always did a double take

while watching Saber Marionets. One of the nations to survive on the new planet was called Xian. Kept getting an image of a bunch of Romans in my head. When they finally get there it is all Chinese. Goes to show that the rational mind and the emotive associations formed by the mind are not always the same.

[drdigi420]

11. no box for 'HELL NO!'

might as well ask me if i like spikes in the skull

[jonnyblitz]

271. i am a definite HELL NO!

might as well ask me if I would vote for Bush! :puke:

[On the Road]

13. I'm an ex-Chrisitan

still very interested in historical Jesus studies and church history. But none of the religious traditions today represent what Jesus taught, and if any of them did it would be considered so bizarre that no one would subscribe to it.

[MISSDem]

258. Where can one find out what Jesus really taught?

Honestly I'm curious.

[Misinformed01]

15. Where is the third choice?

"I am not sure?"

I thought I was, but the more I study, the less I understand. How about "I think all that myth stuff surrounding virgin births and mystical happenings is just really cool, and I enjoy reading about it; but don't have a clue in hell if there is such a thing as eternity for the soul?"

Or even better: "it really doesn't matter what anybody THINKS in the long run."

"Yes," or "No" is just too black or white for some, or most people.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

52. you can decide for yourself

I purposefully did not set a definition, so you can choose whatever definition you like.

[Spider Jerusalem]

16. Not really, no.

In somewhat of a philosophical sense, but not in a religious one...I think God is nothing more than a useful metaphor for describing the sum total of natural forces and processes which shaped and govern the universe; I think the idea of God as an omnipotent, omnipresent supernatural being in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition is rather silly. And my philosophical Christianity is no more or less Christian than it is Confucian or Buddhist.

[smirkymonkey]

179. I like that description - Do you

mind if I adopt it? I have always thought the same, but never put it quite so elegantly.

I have usually described god as universal creative energy, or something along those lines. Really, I think no human being can ever have actual knowledge of this force, we can only percieve it and know when we are in sync with it.

[Solomon]

276. I concur. I like the description too.

There's two issues here. What one considers a christian to be, and what one considers "god" to be.

I was raised a christian but I shy away from calling myself a christian because the word has been hijacked. On the other hand, it's hard for me to say I'm not a christian, because I adhere to the golden rule (which I understand, is not necessarily a christian concept).

I don't believe in an anthropomorphic god, but I suspect there is some kind of intelligence working the universe. Actually, I'm close to actually believing that "god" is evolving, which I guess, makes me a non-christian, in terms of most people's definition.

I can never call myself an atheist because I do have to admit, that when something bad happens to me, like pain and fear, I do say a prayer. Come to think of it, when something good happens to me, I say a little thankyou. But I don't believe there's a man in the sky. So I don't get on my knees everynight to pray.

[PVnRT]

17. Yes

In that I believe in Christ. On the other hand, I don't like organized religion nor the fuckwits twisting it for their own political ends *cough* Pat Robertson *cough*.

[Walt Starr]

18. I'm a Born Again Pagan

And again,...
and again,...
and again,...

[yella_dawg]

172. Not me...

I was born Pagan. I got it right the first time.

[JaySherman]

206. LOL. Same here.

Recovering Catholic. Went to Catholic school my whole life and all it taught me was that my religion and organized religion in general are an institutional farce.

[hyphenate]

20. Lapsed Catholic

And proud of it. I don't believe in most organized religions, and call myself an agnostic more than anything else. I found too many contradictions, lies and agendas in most religions that make me doubt how much is true, and how much was created by leaders through the centuries to keep the populace under their thumb.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

21. Half-Assed Catholic

I love Catholic ritual, just not a lot of the views. I was raised during the '70s and early '80s when Liberation Theology was popular, and knew a lot of nuns and priests who went to Central America and Africa to help the poor. There still is a thread of obligation to the less fortunate in the Church, but there is also a sexist, homophobic element that disgusts me. I guess that can be said of most religions...

[randr]

22. I don't "practice" any religion

I find the same truths and revelations of human character are present in all religions. Also the same principles and suggested conduct of behavior are expounded unilaterally. The problem is that not all of the people who only practice their religion of choice don't quite have it down yet.

[Rich Hunt]

23. Jesus

You people are all going to hell.

What will the freepers think of you free-thinking loons?

:evilgrin:

I have no hostility to religion - I just don't practice it.

[NeonLX]

26. All I can say is...

...it can't really be hell unless it's populated by neoconservatives & TV preachers!

[JNelson6563]

38. how's that go again?

Go to hell for the company and heaven for the climate. :-)

[buck4freedom]

291. See...

Us Gnostics believe this IS hell... and it's populated by Neo-cons and TV preachers!

LOL!

[buck4freedom]

290. It's Friday the 13th...

They'll probably think what they did on Friday the 13th in October 1307. "Wow, good time to burn some Gnostic and Heretics at the stake."

Oh well... throw another heretic on the barbie! :-)

[BiggJawn]

24. I'm an Atheist.

And all that means is that I believe in one less god than "the mainstream".

[Walt Starr]

48. Interesting, you're further from me than you are the Christians

As a pantheist, I recognize infinite aspects of the divine as represented by various deity images which would tend to suggest I worship multiple gods and goddesses. As far as I care to break things down, it is a single Goddess and God.

My point, however, is that monotheism is closer to atheism than it is to pantheism, but most monotheists tend to tolerate a pantheist before they do an atheist.

As an aside, I do not believe it is possible to have a rational and logical discussion or debate about religion, ergo, when engaged in religious debate I always take the stance of the atheist as it is the only position that is supportable by rationality and logic. The spirutal transcends the logical and rational and must be experiential. You cannot communicate such a transcendent experience and thus, each person must formulate their own religion to coincide with the transcendent experiences. When one personal religion is close enough to another personal religion, you have a true communal experience and can organize based upon that. Unfortunately, that organization often brings those who do not have transcendent experiences but are trying to "fit in" and thus, the organization becomes corrupt.

Be that as it may, all of those words can be summed up in just a few.

Religion is all in a person's mind.

[Az]

50. You may find the difference comes from

Doctrine. Monotheism in the form of Xianity is more about adherance to doctrine than questioning the nature of the universe. Pantheists are much more into questioning the nature of things and this puts them in a similar camp to the skeptics and atheists who are naturally probing as well.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

54. Interesting - you take the opposite approach than I did

I allowed people to decide for themselves what the label meant, and whether they wanted to identify with it or not. Many other posters have decided to define the label for other people - mostly those who do not identify as Christians.

[Az]

79. Consider

The Christian belief system comes directly from the story contained within the doctrine. It is specifically not a consideration of the universe. The nature of the universe is secondary to the story of Jesus. Though secondary the nature is constrained by the story and thus the dilema with seeking the nature of the universe. If found to be contradictory to the story it is rejected.

Pantheism seeks to understand the universe and does not come with an attached dogma or story that is built upon its framework. As such it carries not intrinsic dogma or authoratarian commandments. It is far closer to the intellectual attempts to posit personality traits the Roman Pagan gods had to represent nature rather than the experential nature of the monotheistic religions.

[Walt Starr]

97. True, we anthropomorphize ntural phenomenon

We apply the personality of Diana, for example, to the feminine aspect of the tidal qualities present during a full moon.

We apply the personality of Pan to the natural fecundity present during the spring of the year.

We apply the personality of Cernunnos to the darkening of the year after the Autumnal equinox.

Pantheism then becomes an interesting combination of psychology and ecology.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

99. and the Christian story is ... anthropomophization of nature!

!

[Walt Starr]

113. To a degree, yes

The myth of a dying/resurrected god saving mankind, besides being nearly unicultural (Osris/Horus, Odin, Mithra, Krsna, Buddha) is significant of the changing seasons of the year.

Which just goes to an assertion I agree with that Christianity is just one of the latest in a long line of Pagan religions.

[buck4freedom]

292. BINGO!!!

You win the prize. Welcome to Gnosticism!

[Az]

118. Not quite

The xian story builds upon the Judaic mythos which is an attempt to describe nature and how things are. However xianity takes that as a base line and establishes a new story on top of that foundation. Thus the OT is locked in place as the backstory to the plot they set in the NT.

Hang around some Rabbi's for a time and you will see that Judaic approaches to the nature of the world around us are still very exploratory. In coparison the fundimental Xian view is very fixed. Any questioning is rejected. This is largely because that which is important to them (the NT) is dependent on the structure of the OT. Fiddle with the OT and the NT unravels.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

125. not necessarily

I actually think the "Christian story" existed prior to the Jewish story of the old Testament, and was adapted to fit with the OT. As WaltStarr said, you could consider Christianity to be one in a long line of pagan religions - in fact, the oldest continuos, existing pagan religion. Most pagan religions existing today are based on Christianity in fact.

"In coparison the fundimental Xian view is very fixed. Any questioning is rejected. "

Of course, fundamentalist Christianity is mostly a tiny sliver of Christianity, and barely 100 years old. Your assertion doesn't hold for most Christianity I don't think.

There always seems to be a tendency to give all other religions an expansive ideological framework while trying to put Christianity into the narrowest possible boundary. Why is that?

"Hang around some Rabbi's for a time and you will see that Judaic approaches to the nature of the world around us are still very exploratory."

Funny, that's not my experience at all.

[Az]

129. Origins

The origins of xianity may well include dipping into established mythologies. I suspect it was more of an amalgamation. Borrowing some from Judae, some from Mythra, some created from contemporary experatial factors. To try to pin it down to one thing is perhaps a bit much to ask.

I was not trying to suggest that all xians are tied to the same views of fundimentalists. I would not even assert that all fundies were made from the same cloth. I prefer to let each individual demonstrate the nature of their fabric.

As to the Rabbi's it could well be experience and circumstance. I have associated with some fairly interesting characters (including Rabbi Wine in case you have heard of him). Chalk it up to a anecdotal claim if need be.

[buck4freedom]

293. Jewish Myths

Actually come from older pagan myths.

You're going from a Literalist perspective. The New Testament is a very limited reference of what actually was the various philosophical ideas of the time. You're thinking of Jesus as a real person and the old and new testaments as history rather than what they are... myths which encode ideas about the physical universe and its spiritual antecedants.

[BiggJawn]

60. A Paradox, isn't it?

I thought at I posted this "Well, what about Pagans and others who believe in MANY Gods/Godesses?"

But since people tend to get all bent up when you say "Eh, it's ALL a bunch of HOOEY", I left it at that...

[enki23]

110. but it *is* all a bunch of hooey

[Muddleoftheroad]

25. So far

Not exactly trending along similar lines with the rest of America. Perhaps this is another indication about the other many differences of opinion.

[Columbia]

57. I've thought the same

Maybe we should rename the board, "Atheist Underground"?

[Muddleoftheroad]

75. Not exactly underground

As evidenced by some of the posts.

[durutti]

229. That's right!

Force 'em underground, where they belong! We'll show them where independent thought gets 'em...

[Az]

231. Na, been in that dungeon long enough

If anyone wants to stick us back in that hole in the ground there is gonna be trouble. Ain't going back, no how, no way.

[durutti]

228. Is that a problem?

Is there some reason why you think there needs to be uniformity of thought?

[JohnLocke]

27. Jewish

[historian]

93. the real locke

Im doing a 20 page essay on locke and his influence on modern day politics. If you are john locke re incarnated ill take you to mcdonalds if you do m y essay!!!!

[JohnLocke]

187. Hmm...

Try this...

http://directory.google.com/Top/Society/Philosophy/Philosophers/L/Locke,_John/

[historian]

192. re web site

Thanks - the site was very helpful

[JohnLocke]

199. No problem (Psst...I really am John Locke)

:) :yourock: :) :)

[durutti]

230. ::barf::

Locke in a nutshell: government exists only to protect property and prevent everyone from killing each other. Humanity is just a "blank slate" to be molded to the likes of the ruling class.

Not one of my favorite "thinkers".

[JohnLocke]

245. Ehem.

Life, LIBERTY, and Property. Apparently you forgot one.
Anyway, do you prefer Hobbes?

[1gobluedem]

28. I'm Catholic too

Catholics are Christians even though the daughter of a Baptist minister once told me very seriously that we aren't.

I agree with RationalRosie -- love the ritual but there are things that disturb me concerning homophobia and a woman's right to choose. Fortunately, I belong to a pretty liberal parish in a very liberal town.

[progressiverealist]

29. Fundies and Repubs have driven me from the church... ex-christian

Just left the Lutheran church after 38 years, counting the year of my baptism as year one. I am saddened by this, but the fundies and right-wingers have successfully taken over the Christian church, more or less as a whole.

[NeonLX]

31. Doesn't have to make you an ex-Christian...

...just an ex-churchgoing-Christian :)

The fundies drove me away for decades; took me a long time to realize that maybe *they* were the problem, instead of the teachings of Jesus themselves...

[Sugarbleus]

193. That's where I'm at too Neon

I am passionate (eep..that word)about the teachings of Christ et al, but I'm disillusioned with the "organized" right-wing, conservative church(in all it's forms) in America today. I am sad.

Some say they can love God, as a Christian, without going to church. I think thats true, but getting together with others who believe likewise is really important in terms of supporting one another. I haven't a clue where to find a "church" that is both spiritually nourishing AND socially conscious.

Guess, I'll just hang out in here for a while. lol :P

[Az]

196. Just think of it this way

Would you be able to derive the entire belief system on your own without the teachings of the church to instruct you about what to believe? Without churches doctrinal beliefs have a hard time progressing.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

184. Try an Episcopal church

As one of my fellow parishioners said, "They're like the Lutherans used to be."

[durutti]

234. Others suggestions...

Society of Friends
Unitarian Universalists
Presbyterian Church USA
United Church of Christ
American Baptist
Disciples of Christ
Reformed Church in America
United Methodist Church

[murielm99]

297. United Methodists are anti-gay.

I stopped going to church there.

[durutti]

232. ELCA or Missouri synod?

ELCA churches tend to be pretty liberal. I went to one when I was growing up. It was in a very right-wing community. But there, I was taught that evolution is real and God isn't necessarily a male.

[murielm99]

300. I was raised Missouri Synod

They are very conservative on doctrinal issues, and things like the sacraments in particular. Actually, I kind of liked understanding my traditions, and why we did the things we did.

When I married, I went to the Church of the Brethren, a peace church. We got a very fundamentalist pastor, for some reason. We quit, and went to a United Methodist Church. Now, they have decided to be anti-gay. I think I am done with this for awhile.

There are no perfect churches, just like there are no perfect candidates. I may look again for one that sort of fits my views, but is still Christian. If that is possible. It is the people who mess it up, not God.

[mrgorth]

30. Yes and no

I believe I am. Most wouldn't.

[K-W]

32. Nihilist here

so, yah, not christian

[Az]

A breathing nihilist is like

a luddite on the internet.

There is no purpose to life other than what you make of it.

[K-W]

226. Not really

I just dont apply any beliefs to the world around me. It interferes surprisingly little with me leading a normal life.

[ieoeja]

33. Compared to yesterday's Hunter poll.

This is one is missing the third option: "I am not a Christian, but I do support the right to be a Christian".

:)

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Strapping Buck]

35. Devout, orthodox Roman Catholic

go to Mass daily.

[Strapping Buck]

36. Devout, orthodox Roman Catholic

attend daily Mass

[Az]

37. And post twice daily as well apparently

:-)

[Strapping Buck]

41. Touche...

Sorry, I got some weird error message from the DU server (both times actually) so I assumed my message did not post.

-Stapp

[Az]

45. Was getting the same

Quit my browser and came back. Seems to have cleared. Course it may have been a glitch on the server if you and others were getting it too.

[GreenPartyVoter]

39. A very liberal one

[Az]

42. My list

I am a Humanist/Atheist/Unitarian Universalist/Taoist. That is I develop my understanding of morality by means of humanistic reasoning. I am atheist by definition. I am UU by assoication. And Taoist by similarity of my understanding of the world around me to that of Lao Tzu's teachings.

[rucky]

43. Raised Jewish...But Jesus ROCKS!

so does Gothama Buddha, Krishna, Muhammed, Gaia...etc. Can't decide/doesn't matter - they all have basically the same message.

Everything is one.

[Az]

44. Well they all are

trying to answer the same questions. One would hope that the teachings that have survived the longest might have gotten some of the issues right.

[Sugarbleus]

215. LOL LOL---->bobblehead chimp... good job rucky! n/t

[VOX]

49. Baptized Methodist, but haven't been near a church for more than 20 years.

But do I blindly believe in some old man in flowing robes who acts as a celestial puppeteer? Of course not. I have a mind, and I'm going to use it. It's the organization -- the business -- of religion that bothers me so much. However, I do understand the value (and danger) inherent in all organized religions.

Jesus was a radical -- an instrument of change, love and renewal -- and it's so very sad that his life and teachings have been so twisted over the centuries.

[Muddleoftheroad]

51. Still far apart from the rest of America

Very far in fact.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

53. Yes, and far from the rest of the Democratic party I think too

I believe that Democrats are mostly non-church-going, but still a majority identify as Christian. This might explain the hostility towards Christians on DU.

[Terwilliger]

56. saying yes makes them like George W. Bush...could that skew the poll?

after all, if you're a "Christian" then you must believe what GW Bush believes, right?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

58. if you're "Gay" you must believe what the Log Cabin Republicans do right?

nonsense, just like your post.

[Terwilliger]

61. I see

so I can say Bush doesn't believe in Christ and God but OTHER people do "Those according to what WCTV thinks!"

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

64. I don't know what you mean

"so I can say Bush doesn't believe in Christ and God but OTHER people do "Those according to what WCTV thinks!""

I can make neither heads nor tails of that sentence fragment. Sorry.

[Terwilliger]

67. not surprising

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

68. no, it isn't

look, we agree!

[bobbieinok]

131. sarcasm. right??????

...

[Az]

65. I find the hostility seems to derive from

a lack of voice in the public. Where the xian groups have an active social group to help its members deal with societies troubles atheists and other nonxians do not have these social safety nets. Thus they have no means to work out their frustrations with xians and others. So when the ability to vent these frustrations does come along they often do so with less tact than should be called for. They will include anything that resembles that which causes them stress in their reaction. It is lack of exposure, experience, and practice that brings this negative tactic into play.

[Terwilliger]

69. I think it comes from witnessing things like DoMA

and realizing that religious institutionalization is the enemy of liberal society

[Muddleoftheroad]

72. Liberal society

Nice broad brush you are painting religions with today Ter.

[Terwilliger]

78. what does that have to do with "liberal society"?

so, you think church hierarchies like freedom of expression and free will?

[Muddleoftheroad]

84. Depends on the church

Churches in the African-American community support many such things.

[Sterling]

216. Yes they do and I find irony

In the fact that most African American churches seem to have a better handle on Jesus than the former slave masters who pushed the religion on them in the first place.

[truthspeaker]

82. he said religious INSTITUTIONALISM, not religion

We are facing a common enemy: rigid, hierarchical, authoritarian organizations who preach bigotry and tell their adherents how to think as well as how to vote.

We are on the same side against the Religious Reich, if only we would all realize it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

85. Definitions

Organized religion is not only fine with me, it is a big part of my life as it is with many other DUers.

[Columbia]

88. I concur

"Organized religion is not only fine with me, it is a big part of my life as it is with many other DUers."

As do the vast majority of Americans.

[hells-bells]

285. I will second that notion....

I am a regular Church attendee, also.

I do not think that religion is necessarily anathema to most Democratic values. God is love. And I find that it totally inspires me to do more for all those around me.

[truthspeaker]

83. I admit I still hold a grudge for converting my ancestors at swordpoint

but that was 900 years ago so I try to let it slide.

But the injustice of forced conversion is more recent for American Indians.

[truthspeaker]

66. what hostility towards Christians?

I haven't seen any hostility towards Christians on DU. I have seen hostility towards the Pat Robertson/Ralph Reed style of Christians, but none towards Christians in general.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

71. Then you haven't been paying attention

From a post above: "Christianity is nothing but a cult filled with seriously deluded human beings."

I've been on DU for over two years, and while it's *nothing* like it was back then (the mods now delete the most offensive, hate filled posts) the anti-Christian sentiment is rampant. Compare the treatment of even liberal Christianity to the treatement of Judaism, Islam, or Paganism. It's not even close.

It's understandable considering the make up of the political parties.

[truthspeaker]

74. OK, but that's one post out of 73

I'd hardly call that a large amount of hostility. Especially when the rest of Harrad's post - re: the blood and hypocrisy - makes sense. At least he gave a reason for his hostility, even though I think his hostility is an overreaction.

[Muddleoftheroad]

77. Today

At one point, the DU religion wars got so out of hand that there was an official timeout ordered on all religion posts. Perhaps some of the nastiest folk on both sides of the issue went away or perhaps not. I imagine we'll find out after a bit on this thread.

[Terwilliger]

89. the treatment of Islam? are you fucking kidding me?

and there's NO SUCH THING as liberal Christianity...if Christianity was so damned liberal people wouldn't have a problem with it

My biggest complaint about the religious is that they can't keep the numbnuts out of my laws. When you seal that problem I'll stop thinking of all of you as god-pods.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

101. thanks for that

It's good to see it out in the open, that way people know what we're talking about.

[Az]

108. Um, I strongly disagree

There are a great many very liberal xians that I know personally. The xians you are reacting to are likely a very vocal and active minority. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson do not speak for all xians.

[Terwilliger]

195. I didn't say liberal Christian individuals

I said "liberal Christianity"

[durutti]

241. There is such a thing as liberal Christianity.

Ever hear of liberation theology? Quakers? Martin Luther King?

[Djinn]

153. but that isn't anti - christian

I think you'd find most people who hold views like "Christianity is nothing but a cult filled with seriously deluded human beings." probably hold them about all religions - but why is it OK for religious people to beleive we're all going to hell but it's not OK for us to think that you're all wasting your time?

btw I'm not really sure what I believe which is why I like posts like this - lots to think about

[Sterling]

218. I agree that is the most offensive bunch of BS

I have no time or respect for people who say or think that. It is so arogant and hateful.


I am not saying that all Christians feel that way but it does seem to be a popular worldview.

That idea is what drove me from the church. It clearly shows how flawed the dogma really is.

[DrWeird]

80. There isn't any.

Any attacks on christianity are against DU rules and are promptly deleted by the mods.


There are a few loudmouths with martyr complexes, no pun intended. who think that an attack on right wing christian bigots, be it Jerry Falwell or Vatican officials, is an attack on christianity and promptly hit the alert button and rant about how DU is antichristian.

I remember one specific instance where one was ranting on and on about how christianity at DU was savagely attacked by antichristians, also claiming moderator bias, and then the subject of scientology came up and said person went on a hypocritical tirade about how scientologists are stupid and/or crazy and how it's not a real religion and said people should be shunned.

Frankly, these peoples opinion really shouldn't carry any weight.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

86. That's simply false

Many attacks on Christianity are not promptly deleted by the mods, at all. As for loudmouths with martyr complexes, there are certainly a few on both sides of the Christian/anti-Christian debate.

[DrWeird]

87. So you're claiming moderator bias?

Is that what you're saying?

[Muddleoftheroad]

90. As is evidenced by this thread

The mods move fast to remove the most offensive garbage. But a lot of the anti-Christian stuff hides in the gray areas where it offends as it is intended to do but doesn't quite cross the boundaries into that which is obviously deleted.

And of course, many of us recall when the whole topic was put off limits for a while as a result of the infighting.

[DrWeird]

104. What are you expecting? The Spanish Inquisition?

If it isn't deleted by the mods, then it isn't inappropriate.

This talk of secret hidden bigoted messages that only you can see reeks more than a little bit of paranoia. Frankly, I think you just want everybody to conform to your narrow views of christianity, given that you're so openly hostile to other peoples opinions...

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=113&topic_id=4757#4971>

[Muddleoftheroad]

111. It can still indicate or express strong anti-religious views

And on these subjects, such comments flow with abandon.

My "narrow" views of Christianity? I don't endorse a randomly bogus claim that I find offensive to my beliefs and now I'm narrow? LOL.

[DrWeird]

115. Ah, see, there you go.

You get offended by other peoples personal beliefs, you even go so far as to claim they're bogus.

Why should we consider your claims that your beliefs are being unjustly attacked when you attack other peoples beliefs and claim their beliefs are somehow an attack on yours?

[Muddleoftheroad]

117. LOL

You are quite amusing.

So, I can create a religion or belief solely targeting other religious beliefs so that it offends them and those others dare not be offended?

It doesn't work that way.

[DrWeird]

123. How do you expect to be taken seriously?

You demand tolerance of your beliefs yet you show none for others. That sounds very hypocritical to me.


If you want to talk about that thread, start by answering my questions for you in that thread.

The fact that you get offended by the suggestion that Jesus may have been gay says alot about your character.

[Muddleoftheroad]

130. Beliefs

I haven't even been back to that thread in some time and had forgotten all about it.

I am offended that Jesus is being coopted by a cause. I am offended when the fundies try to take Jesus along for the ride and I am equally offended when others do so.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

157. hola DrWeird...

I would like to answer your question...

Yes, Jesus was likely to have been dark skinned like just about all of the inhabitants of the region or that era. It is apparent that the artists who depicted Jesus as an anglo were doing it to satisfy patrons' sensibilities or their own.

However, the suggestion that Jesus was gay is completely unfounded and with no basis in fact (the only 'facts' we have are the gospels) it is reasonable for someone to become offended at the assertion. It would be similar to someone making completely unfounded claims about say, one of the current democratic presidential candidates, and then being shocked when someone is offended...

Does that answer the two main questions of that thread? I know I am not the person to whom the questions were presented but I felt compelled to answer...forgive me if I have overstepped...

theProdigal

[DrWeird]

161. "satisfy patrons' sensibilities or their own."

A bit contradictory then, no?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

162. contradictory?

the fact that they misrepresented what Jesus probably was? Are you trying to point out that one misrepresentation of Jesus is more valid than another?

theProdigal

[DrWeird]

165. No, I'm pointing out that neither is more valid then the other.

Why should be one offended by speculation that Jesus may have been gay when one is surrounded by images of a white Jesus?

My point was that in Scandinavia he's nordic, in Japan he's asian, in Africa he's black, why can't he be gay?

People do this because they want to identify with Jesus, right? So why is it insulting to think he could have been gay?

If you're going to whine about how other people are disparaging your narrow religious views, despite no real evidence such remarks exist, one should extend the same courtesy to others.

Jesus fucking Christ. You'd think that people who call themselves christian would understand the golden rule.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

171. whining?

please don't attribute things to me that I am not doing...

I personally am not insulted, but some people could be and there is no reason for you to be surprised by that. But suggesting that he is gay without any factual basis is considerably more 'substantial' than dealing with his color/appearance. Why do yo become so upset at the assertion that he is not gay?


theProdigal

[DrWeird]

176. No, I'm not talking about you.

And I'm not at all upset with the conjecture that he was straight.

Why is sexual orientation considerably more "substantial" than his race? I understand why people get mad about it. But they got made at the depictions of a black Jesus back in the sixties.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

178. sorry...feeling a little touchy today

had a bad day in class...software blew up on me and I just about lost it with a student...please accept my apologies...

as to the question of this post...see 'to continue' below

pleasure chatting
theProdigal

[ProdigalJunkMail]

175. to continue...

Despite what many short sighted and bigotted people believe to the contrary the ethnic makeup of Jesus was not central to any part of his message. However, suggesting that he is gay does go against one of the tenets of the Christian belief structure...that not one letter of the law passed away at the coming of the Christ and if Jesus was God incarnate (as most christians profess) then the law stating a prohibition on homosexual acts was still in place. Therefore, suggesting he was a homosexual means that Christ sinned and therefore is not perfect and could not have atoned for sin...which is another foundation of the faith of many christians...THAT is why it is offensive.

Christ never defended himself against any charge and, yes, too many people go way too far in defending with ferocity the person of Christ. But to suggest that he was gay goes into the very foundation of Christian beliefs.

theProdigal

[Az]

177. Considering

how many documents were purged concerning these matters in the early church history, perhaps going into the foundations of the church would not be such a horrible thing to do. But that is not for me to say. Some seek truth. Some seek faith. Perhaps they meet, perhaps they don't.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

180. i think they do...somewhere

and I wish there were more readily available writings about the 'life and times of Jesus Christ.' :-) Anything written about him or BY him (wouldn't THAT have been sweet for us christian-types) would give us a better insight into who we believe God is.

theProdigal

[DrWeird]

181. There's no real evidence Jesus really existed.

There's certainly no evidence that he was the son of God, that he was born of a virgin, that he was white, gay, straight, or anything else.

So a person has no business about other peoples concepts of Jesus anymore then the other people have about the original persons beliefs.

It's not any ones business deciding who is christian, and who christ was.

Sorry, would like to continue, but gotta run...

[ProdigalJunkMail]

183. thanks for the chat

will continue to butt heads in the future I would suppose :-)

have a good evening...
theProdigal

[ProdigalJunkMail]

190. given that argument...

there is no real evidence that anyone of that era existed...it is all just words on paper and could have been fabricated. There are words written to bolster the evidence that Plato founded the Academy near Athens, Greece (not to be confused with Athens, GA) but there are words written by various authors to bolster the evidence that Christ walked the earth...all or none of it could be fabricated.

I will agree with you though that one's relationship with their deity is their own business. If you believe that the man called Christ was gay, more power to you. But my idea of who Christ was and is (yes, I do believe that) is based in what I read of him in the scriptures and what I find of him experientially...and the two do not conflict. There is nothing to suggest his ethnic makeup so that is not a concern. But there is something there that speaks to his sinless life and where someone contradicts that then they are contradicting the only known works pertaining to his life. If someone attacked a foundational belief of yours, you might be tempted to fight back against it.

I certainly see your point and value your input, but the assertation that Christ is gay is no more founded than the assertation that John Kerry is (I just picked him to make a point...not to suggest anything about his sexuality).

theProdigal

[hells-bells]

286. wow...

is this person for real?

[enki23]

246. is calling it "a bunch of hooey" antichristian?

would that be like calling war protestors antiamerican? or would it be more analgous to say calling creationism "wrong" is anti-christian? am i allowed to say "some of it is a bunch of hooey?" like when pat robertson says bush is chosen by god? i can say that's hooey. and i can say some *kinds* of christianity are a bunch of hooey. that's allowed. how many kinds can i include, before it crosses into anti-christian territory?

and if i think christianity is based on mistaken beliefs, and say so, i'm anti-christian? if i am, isn't there something wrong with me not being allowed to profess my belief that, it just happens, is completely incompatable with theirs? wouldn't saying one were a religious jew contain an unspoken statement that one thought christianity was based on mistaken beliefs? without some mighty semantic gymnastics, it would.

if i were to say "it's a bunch of hooey," i wouldn't be saying christians are all stupid. i'd be saying they're all wrong. i don't think that's "anti-christian." i think christians are entitled to their beliefs, so long as their beliefs do not affect my life. their right to swing their bible, however, ends where my nose begins. up to that point, they can believe whatever they want. even if it's a bunch of hooey.

or... i suppose one could say "love the believer, hate the faith." that would probably be fair too.

and sometimes... sometimes i love christians enough to try to talk them out of their erroneous, and often dangerous beliefs. is that anti-christian? usually i don't love them enough to do this. is *that* anti-christian?

maybe anti-christianity is like pornography, and defined by community standards. maybe it would be true to say "i can't define it, but i know it when i see it." that would explain a lot, really.

[Muddleoftheroad]

261. You ask many rhetorical ifs

To say Christians act unChristian is perfectly fine and sometimes pretty darn accurate. To say Christianity is a bunch of hooey is not.

And if you think christianity is based on mistaken beliefs, and say so, yes, you are being anti-christian. If you say you believe differently and are unprovoked to attack then you should not attack as well.

If you say Christians are all wrong, yeah that's pretty anti-Christian. I don't claim Muslims are wrong. Or Jews, etc., though I believe a different religion. In my opinion, God doesn't discriminate against different religions.

So, what "erroneous, and often dangerous beliefs" do you try to talk Christians out of?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

96. not really

Well I will say that the moderators - like all human beings - have their biases, so in that sense, yes, I claim moderator - and poster - bias.

I am certainly *not* claiming that the moderators consciously allow Christian bashing while deleting bashing of other religions.

[blondeatlast]

107. Stick around--I've been equated with that wing-nut in Kansas,

The "equator" has since been rightfully tombstoned, though.

[Woodstock]

94. I agree, most Dems are Christian and there is hostility here

toward Christians.

DU is often a nice place to visit, but it isn't the real world.

[Az]

124. And I appologise

for any hostility you may experience. Please approach it with tolerance and understand that it may simply be that there are not enough vocal tolerant xians out there for others to make an informed opinion on the matter. Unfortunately the believers that make the greatest effort to be heard also seem to be the ones that endorce hatred and overturning our rights. Atheists being the disconnected minority that we are (try finding a fellow atheist in a crowd) are very concerned about rights and may react strongly when we feel they are threatened.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

135. easy to find athiests in some crowds

If you take the entire population of the US, a majority would identify as Christians. Take the entire population of voting Democrats, perhaps a majority but a lot less. Take let's say, the population of politically active, liberal Democrats in New York City, and you'll find athiests well represented.

The problems come into play when a subset of people denigrate Christians when Christians are in fact a minority in that subset - like DU. While DU seems generally tolerant towards minorities on DU that are also minorities in the general population, like say Muslims or athiests, great care is taken not to offend. On the other hand, on DU it seems that offending the minority of Christians here is justified because the majority of Americans are Christians.

[Az]

137. Dynamics

You may be able to find atheism well represented in some groupings. They still are hidden. It is an unfortunate side effect of the nature of our society that the atheists that tend to band together are the angry variety. Those that are not angry tend to avoid atheist orgs. Thus there is not an effective supportive social structure behind atheists giving them support when they are in need of it.

Upshot of this is a feeling of exclusion and isolation. With no social structure or external means of identifying fellow atheists we fall into the belief that there are no other atheists around for us to communicate with. We do not feel welcome in church enviroments. Thus when presented with an opportunity to voice this frustration it sometimes comes out in a torrent.

[durutti]

239. Translation:

"I can't defend my position, so I accuse everyone who disagrees with me of undue 'hostility'."

[Djinn]

151. so what

I don't really get what your point is muddleoftheroad, is it a problem that most of the people who answered this thread are out of step with "mainstream America"

[ulysses]

200. well, that settles it.

You can't trust anything anyone at DU says if we're not in total agreement with the rest of America.

:eyes:

[durutti]

238. More to the point...

FOX News is right -- we really are a bunch of latte-sipping, New York Times-reading, NPR-listening yuppies who are "out of touch" with America*!

* The Deep South.

[ulysses]

252. exactly

except that I prefer plain coffee, cancelled my NYT subscription years ago, have a non-FM-receiving radio in my truck, and am in regular contact with my in-laws south of Atlanta. ;-)

Muddle likes to play in the stereotype sandbox.

[Sterling]

217. Maybe

I don't know that most Americans are as religious as you may think. Anyway who cares. If everyone wanted to jump off a bridge?

[durutti]

237. So?

Is the rightness or wrongness of a position of a position determined by its number of adherents? If most people thought slavery or segregation were O.K., would it be fine with you?

[thebigidea]

265. then why waste your time with such unamerican, non-mainstream biblehaters?

the rest of America is eagerly waiting!

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

59. Yes.

Born again, follower of Christ. I make no apologies.

[Terwilliger]

62. *GASP* Define the terms! Define the terms!

:eyes:

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

73. Everyone gets to decide for themselves

which is the response I've given to anyone asking me to clarify my definition. (Please see the previous posts).

See, if someone chooses to label themselves a certain way, I'll leave the definition of that label to them. That allowed for differences of opinion, and I don't think I'm making any blanet judgements about people's religious beliefs in the thread. :)

[elfwitch]

63. Just call me Jewey Jewman....

I have been offered memberships in many clubs and organizations. The Christian club is one that I have never wanted to join.

[progressiverealist]

70. you're not missing anything

[elfwitch]

91. I didn't think I was...

:hi:

[Skidmore]

76. Raised in the

Christian Protestant tradition but I believe fully that there are many paths to God/Enlightenment/Supreme Being, only some of which are labelled Christian.

[Jack_Dawson]

81. Yes but not a "Left Behind" kook

[historian]

92. a jaded cynic

Religion has its beginning in the caves when cave dwellers were petrified by thunder and lightning imagining they were caused by some beings somewhere, and so they sought to appease them with offerings. From there religion went downhill. It very rapidly became a form of oppression and repression, raised intolerance and bigotry to new levels and gave hypocrisy a whole new face. As for the bible it was written by men who were scientifically ignorant and who wrote about natural occurrences (floods etc...) either as a parable or to soothe the masses with fairy tales.
As for christianity, the ethics and modes of behavior preached by jesus are certainly appropriate but beyond that I find it difficult to believe he was anything m ore than a radical who was angry at the corruption of the Sanhedria who were very careful about maintaining their elite positions in life.

[maveric]

95. I'm a bad catholic.

Grew up with the RC church but saw the hypocracies and now dont regularly practice.
I like the rituals and the base messages in catholicism but the church's stance on abortion and gays keeps me away.

I believe that catholicism is one of the "purer" forms of christianity and it tends to act more "Christ-Like", IMHO.

[xxqqqzme]

98. if christian

is being defined as the belief of JC being the son of god, redeemer of sins & ascender N2 heaven....then no.

if christian is being defined as belief that I should love my neighbor as myself, refrain from passing judgment & treating children w/ respect...then yes

[MAlibdem]

100. What is this, American Airlines? (n/t)

[noonwitch]

102. Technically, yes

I consider it more of a spiritual thing than a religious one. I also practice Wicca sometimes.
I don't believe the whole died for my sins line. I think Jesus taught us how to pray, how to treat others, and that death is not the end of existence. I don't think that he comes into your heart and takes away all your responsibility for making your own decisions, however. There is also something about his life, death, and way of teaching that is compelling beyond just the words.
I also practiced wicca for many years and found it to be a valid way of observing the universe. I particuarly like the idea of the divine feminine principal that modern christianity does not usually recognize, except for the catholic view of Mary.

[Muddleoftheroad]

103. Interesting

The percentage of Christians is actually dropping. It's good for folks to remember this when we discuss religion and related topics because it shows just how far different the DU opinions are from the rest of the U.S. on this subject.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

106. I agree - that's why I started this thread

I hope it becomes clear that most people on DU are *not* Christian, and most of the opinions on DU regarding Christianity come from people who are not Christians.

I still maintain that no other religion would get the same kind of treatment on DU than Christianity. What amazing is how quickly non-Christians are to define what is and is not Christianity and who is or is not a Christian.

All I can say is Thank God we have a separation of church and state in this country.

[DrWeird]

112. Yes, yes. Atheism is unamerican.

But given that most americans don't go to church regularly and are in favor of the death penalty, I think the only major difference between us and the rest of the US is that we're more honest.

[Muddleoftheroad]

116. UnAmerican

In that most Americans aren't atheists. Other than that, it is founded on freedome of speech and belief, so they're both American values.

What does the death penalty have to do with the price of beans?

[Az]

121. Well if you

take the derivitive value of the current commodity of beans and cross tie it to the expectant social shift with a hard core religious right death penalty supporting administration and its supportive economic policies you will clearly see that the price of beans has everything to do with the death penalty. </humor off>

[durutti]

242. We all better convert!

Right, Muddle? Just say it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

263. Feel free

But only if you wish. What good is a conversion if you don't believe it?

[LiberalFighter]

105. Not anymore

Believe in true values? Yes

[FatSlob]

109. Roman Catholic

[Dob Bole]

114. Native American and Christian

Nobody threatened me with a sword. Nobody grabbed a spoon and said "Here, eat this." In fact, when I did become a Christian I was made fun of and lost a lot of "friends." I find that there are huge stereotypes of born-again Christians present on this board. Just read some of the posts above this one. Some are funny in their ridiculousness. The others are frustrating.

[Dob Bole]

119. And another thing...

I'm tired of the whole "if people hate Christians, it's you own fault" attitude that gets applied to no other religious group on this board. It sucks.

On edit: For example, Xian. Nobody here says " I hate those damn JXs and MXlims. I hate those guys so much that I'm going to refer to them as BuddhiX. I'd like to see someone's shiXy excuse for that one.

[Walt Starr]

133. Xian is accepted by most Christian theologians as an abbreviation

It is not nor has it ever been derogatory. It is an abbreviation, nothing more.

[Az]

134. Historically

it was used by Copiest and Monks exstensively. Similar to the use of Xmas.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

136. It's use on the internet in modern USA however

is almost entirely from athiests and non-Christians, and usually associated with anti-Christian websites. The first time I ever encountered the use of Xian was on online forums dedicated to "debunking" and demeaning Christianity.

I suppose it's too much to ask people to use the terms we choose for ourselves.

[Az]

139. In a conversation between friends

It is always possible to ask the other to moderate their language. Understand that it is not likely meant to be derogatory(certainly not in my case).

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

142. here's an interesting thought

I'm enjoying our discussion Az. Do you know the origin of the symbol your avatar is parodying? It's actually associated with liberal Christianity from the 1960s. If I was thin skinned (and I'm not) I'd probably be offended by it - it's not really a pro-Darwin symbol, but an anti-Christian one - and one that really confuses which branch of Christianity it's in opposition to. The people orginially using the Jesus Fish symbol were NOT fundies.

On edit: Just to be clear, I'm talking about the modern adaptation, not the ancient use.

[Az]

144. Yes I am aware of its origins

Symbols do change however. In fact the fish symbol goes way back to Roman times and fertility symbols. The reactionary appearance of the Darwin fish may have been jumbled. But the current incarnation is squarely aimed at the Fundimenatlists and their attempt to remove evolution from the schools and supplant it with creationism.

It also has become an unofficial mark for atheists and nontheists. We are relatively devoid of any symbols to recognise each other with. As such I leave my fish out there for people to have something to identify with. My fish is not so much a symbol against the Christian fish as it is a symbol to let other atheists and nontheists know they are not alone.

This is a very real factor for many atheists (not all). How one views the world around them has a great deal to say about the social circles you gather around you. It can be very difficult to maintain relations between individuals of opposing beliefs. Over time this can lead to a very detrimental isolation. Atheism does not mean you do not appreciate company. Thus I do not back down from letting others know my positions so they may find an opportunity to ask questions or make connections.

[Dob Bole]

140. It is derogatory....

unless you are writing in Greek, in which case 'X' could be construed as the same meaning as "Christ." When many people on this board say Xian, they mean the same thing as when they say Bush*

[Walt Starr]

156. When I say Xian

I am typing four letters rather than nine. Nothing more, nothing less.

Just like I type Dem rather than Democrat.

It's an acceptable abbreviation, nothing more, nothing less.

[blondeatlast]

255. It's the Coptic spelling of Christ. Perfectly acceptable to this Xian.

[blurp]

120. I used to be a fundy

I would take my bible to school, argue with friends' parents about the interpretation of bible passages, cry during prayer.

But I was also very interested in science. At one point I had to justify my belief in god. I couldn't do it. That hypothesis seemed unnecessary.

Now I'm an atheist.

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike Christians. I actually respect the degree to which the fundamentalists take the bible seriously. I don't accept their axioms, but I admire their desire to be consistent. I have a real problem with excessive ethical flexibility and excessive pragmatism when it comes to issues of right and wrong.

Discussions of ethics and morality aren't just stupid language games philosophers play, after all. What people generally consider right and wrong has huge social consequences and it's a serious business.

[bhunt70]

122. Not religious - A sceptic.

[kaitykaity]

126. I chose Agnostic if I have to chose.

I think the whole thing is too big for us to know. I understand how people need religion to meet a need, life is hard and complicated, and religion can be comforting. My biggest problem with religion is organized religion, people who talk the talk but forget to walk the walk (to overuse a phrase), and people who use religion as a way to look down on other people.

[Tinoire]

127. 100% Believing Roman Catholic

To Caesar what is Caesar's and to God, what is God's.

It is the Traditional Roman Catholic Church that made me a Progressive.

[leyton]

132. Same,

and I don't see any conflict between my political beliefs and my Catholicism. The latter, as well as my background and my surroundings, inform the former.

[Sterling]

221. Maybe because you guys really care

and understand what Jesus was about? I have so much respect for Christians who can see through the BS.

[jokerman93]

128. Being Raised Catholic

Being raised Catholic was enough betrayal for a lifetime.

Although I'm drawn to real mysticism in a kind of non-deist way, I take perverse pleasure shocking the more obnoxious morality police with a little Satanic kitsch just for fun. It amazes me when grown adults start trembling and freaking out when they believe I'm involved in their Manichean fantasies of abject evil and debauchery. Now I have no idea what their fantasies actually are, but they MUST be truly disturbing...

COOL!

Sympathy for the Devil just came on the radio.

}(

[theorist]

138. Scientist. n/t

[A-Schwarzenegger]

141. Yes.

[CO Liberal]

143. I'm an Ex-Catholic, and an Ex-Christian

I left the Catholic Church in the mid-'70s. I stopped calling myself a Christian after being exposed to assholes like James Dobson, Pat Robertson, and Jerry Falwell.

Today, I believe that there is a higher power out there, but it's beyond human capability to understand it. In other words, no one has the true answer.

[Desertrose]

145. spiritual.... incorporate a lot of traditions

raised christian....somehow it just never "took"...have studied many and just keep what works ...as the Hopi's say..."if it doesn't grow corn,what good is it?' I tend to agree.....if you can't use it in your life...well...
:shrug:

Peace
DR

[Supormom]

146. Liberal Christian ... Just like Jesus

[MrSlayer]

147. Satanist.

Dr. LeVay's philosophy echoes my own far more than any organized christian religion.

[flaminbats]

148. a brother of Demnos...

Monks are famed for their devotion and purity. Only those who worship Kta may become monks, the other Fael and the Demnos having more material matters to persue.

The monk is at the same time a lethal fighting machine and a devout student of theology and lore. The belief being that only through knowledge and the quest for truth can a mortal truly ascend to a state akin to that of the gods. While this might seem like the purest of arrogances from a divine point of view, it is both the fuel and fire which drives them.

Many wonder why Kta and his priests suffer the existence of the order when it seems that their obvious goal is to ascend to the same level as the god himself. Some reason that the path of the monk is a false one and their piety and prowess are simply used by Kta as a tool. Others believe that perhaps this is the true purpose of Kta, who is reckoned as the embodiment of purity and faith. Or perhaps it would be a self-destructive hypocrisy for the god to destroy something built upon a fundamental truth, if the possibility of ascension is indeed a truth.

http://www.darkmantle.com/monkpage.htm

[Nomad559]

149. Another Heathen Here

:evilgrin:

Truth

Heretic

[MissMarple]

150. Deist, culturally Christian. I have trouble with dogma.

There is no one way to seek the Divine. To impose one way on everyone stifles religious experience and creates antagonism and hate.

[Gung_Fu]

152. Taoist

No I am a Taoist and I'm not allowed to try to convert people. Then again sometimes it is not always called a religion.

[Az]

155. Then again

You probably couldn't really tell us the true Tao could you?

[Gung_Fu]

163. True

Tao means "way". It is merely a path to follow, yet words could never truly describe it. It is that each has his or her own way, I simply choose the one that I feel goes in harmony with my surroundings and interferes as little as possible with others. And I don't think a little enlightened debate ever hurt anyone.

[Az]

168. Er, I am sorry, I think you missed the point

I was attempting to humorously allude to the notion that the Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao. I am a bit studied in Taoism (and consider myself one after a fashion) and do know the meaning of the word Tao. It was not meant to suggest that your contribution was not welcome in any way. Sorry if it was misunderstood.

[Gung_Fu]

182. Oh

Oh, my bad, I did not mean to sound defensive. I am only self studied when it comes to Taoism, so perhaps you can tell me is it a more of a religion or a philosophy? Or is it merely a perspective issue?

[Az]

188. The teachings of Lao Tzu

Constitute a philosphy coined during a time of great chaos. Many of the Chinese philosophies attempt to attain peace during strife. This was reflective of the times. Wars waged across the continent for a vast period of time. Chaos affected everyone.

Taoism attempted to approach the issue of chaos by accepting it for what it was. It attempts to avoid the stress of trying to force the world to be what you want and instead teaches to see the world for what it is.

There is a famous painting called the Three Vinegar Tasters.


This painting represents the 3 main schools of thought at the time. Buddhism, Confuscianism, and Taoism. The Buddha and Confuscious each have their faces contorted in distaste at the vinegar because they do not find it to taste as they wish it to. LaoTzu has a smile upon his face as he finds the taste to be exactly what it ought to be.

Later adaptions to Taoism took it into more mystic connotations and eventually the IChing. It is interesting to me from a comtemplative notion but the mysticism inherant in its notions seem to be attempting to impose a structure that may not be present. Thus I hold to the older Taoism ideas rather than their later adaptions.

An ecellent book to read in conjunction with the Tao Te Ching is Sun Tzu's Art of War. This book is one of tactics concerning any conflict, not just armed conflict. It is required reading in most eastern cultures.

[Gung_Fu]

194. Thanks

[NoPasaran]

154. Recovering Catholic

[Muddleoftheroad]

158. Holding at 31% Christian

I think the census folks would call this an unrepresentative sample of the general population.

[Djinn]

169. nobody claimed it was representative did they?

n/t

[ulysses]

201. Ok. And?

You seem to be circling a larger point. Are you?

[Muddleoftheroad]

205. I'm not being subtle

My point as previously stated is that this is a good indication of how different the folks here are on issues of morality and religion than the rest of the folks in the U.S.

This means, when the subject comes up, we should all remember that the common views here are NOT the common views elsewhere.

[ulysses]

207. religion, perhaps. morality?

Is morality dependent on the having of religion?

Beyond that, I think you've got a strawman on your hands. Very few arguments here are based on the idea that a course of action is the correct one because it's in step with the majority of Americans.

[KG]

210. Is morality dependent on the having of religion?

NO! and thank god for that! O8)

[ulysses]

213. amoral heathen!

"Good without God is a O"

- marquee on the Baptist church in my hometown years ago

[Muddleoftheroad]

220. For many of us, religion and morality are intertwined

There is no strawman. Hanging out here, it is easy to see the world as DU and not the world as it is outside. I am making the point that the world outside is far different. This poll certainly helped make that point for me.

[Walt Starr]

235. Yet prison populations would dictate differently

Atheists in prison, for example, area much lower percentage of the overall prison population that you find in society as a whole.

This would tend to suggest the absence of religion indicatees a higher moral standard.

Of course, it could also mean that atheist criminals are just better at not getting caught than religious criminals.

[Az]

240. Some numbers

This is the result of research on the population of federal prisons in the US.

Catholic 29267 39.164%
Protestant 26162 35.008%
Muslim 5435 7.273%
American Indian 2408 3.222%
Nation 1734 2.320%
Rasta 1485 1.987%
Jewish 1325 1.773%
Church of Christ 1303 1.744%
Pentecostal 1093 1.463%
Moorish 1066 1.426%
Buddhist 882 1.180%
Jehovah Witness 665 0.890%
Adventist 621 0.831%
Orthodox 375 0.502%
Mormon 298 0.399%
Scientology 190 0.254%
Atheist 156 0.209%
Hindu 119 0.159%
Santeria 117 0.157%
Sikh 14 0.019%
Bahai 9 0.012%
Krishna 7 0.009%

Figuring that atheists make up 10%-18% of the US population (depending on what numbers you track) this shows that atheists make up a far lower percentage of prison population than they do in society. Must be our connections that keep us out of jail.

Oh, and atheists marriages last longer too. Recent studies show that nontheistic couples are more likely to stay married than religious couples. Excerpt from study:

The latest divorce statistics from George Barna are sobering. One-quarter of all Americans have experienced at least one divorce. Born again Christians continue to have a higher likelihood of getting divorced than do non-Christians. Atheists are less likely to get divorced than are born again Christians. These are just some of the statistics from his latest marital snapshot of America.

[Muddleoftheroad]

249. Or

Perhaps going to jail, much like serving in the military, has a tendency to make you think of God more and resurrect, as it were, lost beliefs.

[Az]

256. This is a derivation of the old

no atheists in foxholes. I should mention atheists hate that one. There are too many atheists that have served in the military and maintained their atheism throughout to abide this canard. I would suggest you not use that argument around an atheist exmarine.

Furthermore the numbers do not equate. Prison records show atheists make up less the 1% of the population. This is an unlikely convertion rate.

It truth the issue is probably more a case of socio/economic distribution. Atheists tend to be better eduacted. It is often exposure to higher education that leads one to discard beliefs.

As to the marriage issue I doubt you can pin that one on the foxhole issue. Again it is probably a matter of socio/economics and perhaps a touch of skepticism about relationships. A bit of skepticism allows one to realise that love is not magic and requires upkeep to keep it alive.

[Muddleoftheroad]

262. I don't think there are "no" anything anywhere

By and large. I am not very fond of absolutes. However, the military folks among my family and friends became MORE religious once their lives were in jeopardy.

As for the actual stats, like most other statistics, I question their validity. Many people here, for instance, revel in their atheism. In a different setting, perhaps they would strive to hide it. Perhaps those taking the stats simply recorded the religion of record and not the current religious view.

I do love it when atheists claim essentially that the more educated you become the more likely you are to find "true enlightenment" and reject religion. It's really among the more offensive atheist claims.

[Az]

267. No such claim

"I do love it when atheists claim essentially that the more educated you become the more likely you are to find "true enlightenment" and reject religion. It's really among the more offensive atheist claims. "

Sorry if that was the impression created. In fact higher education introduces more uncertainty and doubt. Not true enlightenment. It is this doubt and uncertainty that often leads to a loss of faith. Never a fun thing. Whether their final descision is true or not remains to be seen.

And as to the stats. Yes we cannot make any absolute conclusions from them. There are a host of ways they can be slanted. Perhaps claiming to be one religion or another gets special privilages. But there are significant statistics that show that atheism is associated with higher incomes, education, and standards of living. What brings this about I will not suggest. But this could well be the reason atheists are under represented in prisons.

[Muddleoftheroad]

268. Apology accepted

As for your last comment, if those stats are true, that would likely explain the situation. Wealth has a tendency to make one unlikely to bash another's head open on the street for lunch money.

[ulysses]

253. and I would say that any for whom morality is dependant on religion

are mistaken.

There is no strawman. Hanging out here, it is easy to see the world as DU and not the world as it is outside. I am making the point that the world outside is far different.

I don't see anyone making the opposite point. Thus the strawman.

[KG]

214. 'common views here are NOT the common views elsewhere'

so, what's your point?

that DU is not mainstream is exactly the reason many of us are here.

DU is not 'mainstream', has never pretended to be so, and hopefully never will be.

[Muddleoftheroad]

222. Yes, that is true

However, for politics that is fine. But many posts are based on assumptions of how people think or act and many here are decidedly removed from how ordinary Americans do either.

THAT is my point. Nothing more. Nothing less.

[durutti]

243. Why?

How is that at all pertinent?

[Muddleoftheroad]

244. It's germaine to so much that we discuss

[ulysses]

251. how so?

Is it that you don't understand that an issue's rightness or wrongness is not determined by its standing in the latest poll?

[Muddleoftheroad]

264. Oh I understand

Despite your sarcastic comment. The problem here is that many DON'T grasp how far removed their views (especially on religion) are from the rest of American society. That impacts positions they take, arguments they make and even candidates they back.

[ulysses]

266. I don't know that you do understand.

As an agnostic, I recognize that most Americans self-identify as Christians. I realize, quite fully, that I'm in the minority on this and any number of other points.

So what?

What I hear you suggesting - and please correct me if I'm wrong here - is that those of us on the "fringe" left would likely moderate our views if only we realized the degree to which our fellow citizens don't agree with us regarding religion and whatever other issue happens to be the topic of the day on DU. If I'm right, and that's what you're saying, I fully believe you to be completely wrong.

[Muddleoftheroad]

280. Not what I am suggesting

I don't expect anyone to moderate their views, nor do I necessarily wish it. However, I see threads and posts all the time that either make assumptions about what people do or predict how they will act and many of those comments are off the mark because of this issue.

[Walt Starr]

233. I would call it a VERY representative sample

of the general population of DUers.

[Muddleoftheroad]

250. Yes

And very different than the general population of non-Duers.

[Liberal Classic]

159. You forgot the Judeo in the Christian

Cheers. :)

[sweetheart]

160. Do I believe in enlightenment?

Yes. That Jesus Christ was the ONLY enlightened person... no.

In the sense that Jesus WAS ALSO enlightened amongst a few others, i wholly respect the fact that christ, the embodyment of all love, wisdom and awakening is in all human beings. Then i am a christian... but somehow the question is different than this. likely.... then i am no christian.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

166. if you call yourself a Christian

That's enough for me, and this poll (as far as I'm concerned). :)

[sweetheart]

173. Good thing i don't

Or i would not be a demonic maniac!!! :-)



"Faith Hope Love, these three, but the greatest of these is love." Methinks i just like wise literature :-)


On a more serious note:
Are YOU a bed-farter? :-)

[cboy4]

164. What do gays think?

I wonder how my fellow GLBT DU'ers think
about this poll/question?

I am Catholic, but don't feel comfortable
going to mass. I guess I'm technically a
Christian, but people like Bush, Falwell,
Robertson, the GOP, etc. push me further away
each day.

When people ask if I'm a Christian, I think I'm
going to start saying I'm spiritual.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

167. please don't!

Please don't let the Falwall types shame you into not using the term "Christian" - that's letting them win.

[Sterling]

223. I love me some Jesus

Brought up that way. Aunt and uncle were baptist ministers. Salt of the earth types. They truly knew the love of Jesus and cared for their fellow man.

I too have a hard time identifying myself as a Christian because to me these days it is more often than not a code word for hate groups.

[Az]

224. When you wish to turn people on each other

you must first seperate them into two camps. Once you have seperated out the wrong people you stop seeing them as people. After that it is easy to set them as monsters to be destroyed.

[buck4freedom]

294. I tell 'em

that I'm a Gnostic Christian which usually makes them look at me funny while they try to figure out if I said "Agnostic" or "Gnostic" and then pretend to know what I'm talking about. ;-)

Everything is as it is... I really don't care what people think about my ideas and beliefs.

I'm working out my own enlightenment and it's not up to me to work it out for them.

We'll get there when we get there.

[jsw_81]

170. No

[Piperay]

174. Yes, more or less

I'm an agnostic...I would like to believe but have a very hard time with it.

[KG]

185. an Inquisition!

how cute!

[ulysses]

202. you didn't expect it, did you?

;-)

[buck4freedom]

295. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

EOM

[styersc]

186. I'm absolutely a Christian

Christ is my liberal role model.

[seg4527]

189. Deist ~ Like Jefferson, Thomas

[Th1onein]

191. No, I'm not a Christian

I believe in God, and I believe that there was once a man named Jesus Christ, but all of this "saved" crap? Thanks, but no thanks. I think that the right wing "Christians" have usurped and twisted everything that the Bible says, to their own narrow ends.

[scarface2004]

197. sopolistic nihilist!!!

and proud of it!!!!!!!!!

[Az]

198. Ack, does not compute

Pride indicates satisfaction. Satisfaction refutes nihilism. Logic is a lovely bunch of flowers that smell bad. does not compute beep brain in a vat brain in a vat... bzzzztttttt poof

[Selwynn]

204. It's funny, I don't know how to answer the question.....

What does "I am a Christian" actually mean? Is there some kind of litmus test? I am not an atheist, but neither do I go to a Christian church (or any church) - and I'm fairly critical (fairly is an understatement) of institutional Christendom.

I have thought a lot about these, and as near as I can tell, religious folks can kind of be divided into two camps - those who define their "faith" creedally and those who define their "faith" relationally.

Some people believe that the definition of Christian means the affirmation of something like the Nicene creed - a list of statements of theological doctrine/dogma that must be affirmed as truth. So being a Christian means believing that Jesus was God, believing in the trinity, the literal resurrection, the virgin birth, the doctrine of original sin, and a ransom theory of atonement. Some people seem to define their spiritual experience by these creedal affirmations - if you affirm them, you're a "Christian" if you don't, you're not.

Then there are other people who believe that Christianity is about a message - a message of a different kind of lifestyle. There are those that believe the fundamental underpinnings of Christian life should life motivated by love and compassion of a depth and intensity only possible by grace. Instead of a moral or doctrinal checklist, this kind of person believes that Christian tradition at its best provides the tools and hope to understand an loving and tender relationship with a power greater than ourselves which whether being merely a human projection or a manifest reality still empowers individuals to live and move with love. In other words - there are people who use/understand the tools/teachings of Christian tradition as all about how to live in right relationships -- relationship to ourselves, relationship to others, and relationship to God. It's not about a list of do's and Dont's as much as it is about a heart motivated by love - what you want to do to yourself or another person is that which would be in harmony with a heart moved by tender love and gentle compassion, and what you do not want to do are the things that contradict with those deepest hearts desires.

Kierkegaard wrote as the title of a book, purity of heart is to will one thing. To me, he hits the nail on the head when he points out that a truly righteous life is not about a moral checklist, but rather about the singular desire of our heart to love ourselves, others and God. It's not about perfect performance, and it sure as hell isn't about judging the "performance" of others. But I do believe that the spiritual life can be wholly and solely about the endless desire to live in right relationship.

So, does the creedal understanding fit me? No, I don't identify with that at all.

But a relational understanding.... ? <smiles>

[buck4freedom]

273. Same thing...

"the singular desire of our heart to love ourselves, others and God."

Those are all the same thing. To do one is to do all.

[Selwynn]

274. Yeah... I pretty much said that when I called it a *singular* desire.

different dimensions of influence perhaps, all the same singular desire.

[scarlet_owl]

208. Yes.

In fact, I will be taking RCIA classes this year to become a Catholic. I have felt for a long time the calling to do this. I was raised in a Wiccan household, and I have no problems with other religions and faiths. I do have a problem with people, religious or not, telling other people what to believe or that they are wrong for what they believe. I think it goes both ways in this matter-athiests do it as well as Christians, Jews, whatever. Believe whatever the hell you want, just leave everyone else alone. Live and let live, different strokes for different folks, and all that.

[ulysses]

209. voted the easier answer - no

The longer version is that I'm an agnostic who can no more reconcile the idea that there is nothing "out there" than I can reconcile the idea of a cognizant and engaged deity. I've resigned myself to a certain state of fluidity in all this, but since I grew up Methodist, Protestant Christianity is the spiritual template (if you will) that I know best. In that sense, and depending on my mood, I consider myself Christian. Most folks, however, probably wouldn't.

[KG]

211. you just another one of them there xian bashin' agnostics, dammit

you ain't fooling me... :)

[ulysses]

212. bashbashbashbashbash

Uncertainty is such a firm foundation from which to bash, after all. ;-)

[hellhathnofury]

219. If by Christian you mean Jewish,

it's all the same for the most part anyway. Theivery.

[leesa]

225. Who cares?

[durutti]

227. I care about the material things.

And making the world a better place in the here and now.

Religion is irrelevent.

[Jose Diablo]

236. Yep, I follow the Christ

Well, I try anyway.

[tarheel]

247. Yes

O8)

[Marymarg]

248. Episcopalian here

very liberal Christian

[ButterflyBlood]

254. yes

I don't go to church though.

[zonmoy]

257. one maltheist here

[Cappadonna]

259. I'm A christian, but I sense alot of Angry People on this board::

I'm no big fan of organized religion........I still love God. And for all of the crap that has happened to me, I'm not angry with God.

Maybe because I grew in the inner city Black church where clinging God was about the only thing you have....but I just don't have the outright rage towards God that so many here in the DU have. And as an African American and kid from da 'hood, I have plenty of reasons to despise the church. But, in the end, I don't blame God and still live my life to reflect God. As the saying goes "God Loves, Man Kills."

Now, to be an atheist or agnostic for imperical proof or from soul searching is fine-- God gives us free choice for a reason. And besides, its kind of silly to attempt and prove God in scientific axioms. Religion is a set of neurotic, often oppressive axioms and dogmas that shackle people and belittle their true potential. And, the American commercialist God is even more disgusting than the Al-Qaeda God of whitey-killing wrath. And at times, I wonder why I still believe. But, that's my own spiritual battle that I have come to grips with over time.

However, from many of my so-called "Liberal" friends who are lapsed Fundies Xians, Catholics and a few Muslims, I seen a crapload of anger and venom towards God. Many of my atheist and agnostic friends from Europe note the same thing too -- many American atheist and agnostic don't really denouce any belief in God, they're really just pissed off with Him/Her . It may come out as institutional religion, but it comes out the same fundamental flaw in how Americans and Westerners see God in general --- God is the bastard child of Zeus and Santa Claus, if I do good nothing bad will ever happen to me and God will make me rich.

Alot of so-called "free thinkers" are stuck in looking at God in the seem warped, self-serving Santa Claus... When the postulate fails, many of us turn our backs on God. Its like Mel Gibson in "Signs", his character didn't stop beleiving in God, we just so pissed off with God that denouncing faith was a whole lot easier than dealing with the anger.

Again, being from the ghetto where hypocrisy and mayhem abound I have come to this conclusion -- Life sucks, nothing's perfect, we're all going to die, people are self-centered scum for the most part and God gave of the free will to be that way.


Before she died, that something my grandmother taught me. This woman had lived her entire life in utter poverty and died of complications due to a 30+ battle with diabetes. But until the end, she didn't blame God. She didn't blame God for how the White Man kept her in poverty, losing her house twice in a hurricane, taking my grandfather and dying a slow, painful death. She realized that life sucks, and not even the Son of God had it easy.


So, I guess, yes I am a Christian, in the sense that I follow Christ, believe in God. And you're an atheist, kudos to you for having the guts to boldly think for your self in this culture where even grappling with one's faith is taboo, let alone denouncing any. Just make sure that you're not really waiting to kick the Almighty in the gonads, 'kay?


- Cappa

[Az]

260. The anger

The anger comes from a lack of representation. Any oppressed people will experience this. It is a natural process. Having no voice and being considered a noncitizen can do this to you.

Atheists are not popular causes to support. Even the recent Boy Scout thread prefers to focus on the gays discriminated against by the BSA. But the lawsuits against them have always included atheists and agnostics that were oppressed by them. We are simply taboo.

We have no openly atheist elected official to speak for us. There were attempts to insinuate that Dean was a closeted atheist and he quickly ran from these assertions. Being an atheist is a political death sentence. You can't even get elected dog catcher unless you swear loyalty to some god.

So yes. We are angry. We sometimes lose our tempers. We lash out at institutions that dominate the world around us that we believe are less than correct. We see the death and destruction caused in the name of gods. And we want to stop it. But we have no voice other than our own. So we sometimes have to shout to be heard. We are up against a chorus of voices chanting in unisen. We have only our perserverance and a desire to find the truth.

[Cappadonna]

269. Defending your beliefs and being angrywith God are two different things

I'm not saying you shouldn't be pissed off at Fundie Xians who think that its their way or the highway. That's the height of arrogance. Get ticked off about it, you have my support. I also find it obnoxious that you have to be religious to hold public office. Who gives a crap if I go to church, you're electing to a public office, not the Council of Nicene. I would join you in your battle cry for using religion to justify war in bloodshed. Most wars about religion usually about something else. Religion is merely an excuse we give ourselves as justification.

What I am talking about are people who get downright hostile towards religious folks, the church and God. You mention church and they start railing about the evils of organized religion and the fairies of the Bible until their about to pop a blood vessel. Put it this way......the way some so-called Freethinkers (say, George Carlin) talks about God and the church is the way Jerry Falwell and alot of Fundie ministers talk about gays-- a hatred to vocal and volatile that it makes you wonder if they're really talking about themselves.


And, BTW, what makes you think that religious people don't feel hurt for injustices in God's name? The most powerful social movements in America and through the third world were started by religious people. No flame-baiting just a thought.

- Cappa

[Az]

275. Familiarity

There are two topics that are considered taboo in our society. Religion and Politics. Without open discussion of them people of particular views become increasingly entrenched in their own particular view. Even worse the opposition becomes less and less specific until anyone seeming to posess any traits objected to is tossed into the mix.

Familiarity destroys such misunderstandings between people. But due to the taboos of our society religion is seldom discussed. Core beliefs are never opened for conversation. Thus when a forum does open up for dialog courtesy is lost. Grand sweeping assumptions are made about others positions. No one knows the individuals or even the range that they can come from.

Atheists are in general ostrocized by their beliefs. As there are nearly no social orgs for them to associate with they have only their limited exposure to religious individuals to go on. The majority of what they percieve to be religious activism is going to come from what they see in the media. The loudest voice before them happens to be fundimentalists. Some horrendously opposed to their very existance as citizens in the US (ask G Bush Sr about that).

It is in this arena that open minded religious individuals can put one of their tenants into practice. Show them tolerance and understanding. Turn the other cheek. Show them that you are not the same as what their images of religious types suggest.

The trick is to find the common ground. Do not forget that you do disagree on some issues. But find the areas you can agree on and bolster them. In this way you can hopefully make one less hostile individual in the world. Or maybe a new friend.

[buck4freedom]

272. Anger...

Anger comes from not understanding. Literalists are angry because they don't understand the true nature of God so they constantly are threatened by those who don't share their beliefs.

Non-believers are angry because Literalists are constantly angry with them for not believing.

The truth? It doesn't matter what you believe. We're all working it out together because we're all the same thing and this physical world is just a playground for understanding God. (We are the mirror through which the True God comes to know itself.)

[buck4freedom]

270. I hate those questions...

I'm a Gnostic Christian which puts me squarely outside the realm of Literalist Christians who often see me as a greater evil than atheists. :-)

It's a loaded question. I don't consider myself even close to the beliefs of Literalists. Do you mean them? then No... do you mean Christian in the original sense of that word as a seeker of the divine Truth? then Yes.

Here... Gnostic Christianity

[truizm]

277. Yes, I'm a Christian

[arewethereyet]

278. Yes, I'm a Christian and proud of it !

[knight_of_the_star]

279. Proud Wiccan!

Loud and PROUD!!!

[Indiana_Dem]

281. Born-again Christian in 1985! n/t

[Ysabel]

282. wtf...

...

[Mattforclark]

283. Agnostic/Weak Atheist

It is playing with words, all playing with words. What do the words mean?

Why? Because I don't do metaphysics.

[stevebreeze]

284. Born again pagan

:kick:

[Indiana_Dem]

287. Isn't it nice how we can all be in the same party

rooting for the same things!? That's why I'm proud to be a Democrat! The party doesn't alienate anybody!:)

[buck4freedom]

289. Totally!!

I love it... being Gnostic Christian I find gnostic traditions in all religions it's so much fun to meet people with different belief systems and ideas. I'm always picking up interesting bits of wisdom and insight. :-)

'tis fun when one is around people who are secure enough in their own beliefs that they don't feel obligated to proseletyze and "convert" others!

[Az]

301. I like the fact

Even with a diverse set of religions and beliefs within the party we can still find ideals to agree upon. In fact it is the fact they we do find continuity within diversity that suggests their strength. With so many paths leading to our positions it gives me a great assurance of our efforts. Tolerance, compassion, understanding. This is our foundation. This is the hope for the future.

[mac2]

288. 90% believe in God but less than 50% go to church/temple

Americans are not as Christian (90% are Christian roots with the rest Jewish, Muslim, etc.) as the RW would have you believe.

Yes...90% say they believe in God but fewer go to any religious organization weekly. It's about 50%. More women than men go to services every week.

So...that does not make a majority of Americans as "religious" as one might think. Americans may have values and ethics but not necessarily go to services, etc.

80% do not trust their tax dollars going to religious organizations. This is because of past abuse by religious leaders...Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggert, etc.

When any government leader talks about his/her religious belief in public...they are not representing all of their constituents. It is unconstitutional as well as bad politics.

I'm with the previous post up there...who cares what religion/or not one belongs to? It's not my business is it?

[corporatewhore]

296. The church of the SubGenius

slack Slack slack slack

[Az]

303. And of Course the Church of the Subgenius is an offshoot

of Principia Discordia.

Hail Eris!

Fnord!

Google it :-)

[kiahzero]

298. Pagan here (n/t)

[DarkHorse]

299. Why does it matter?

Why are you asking?
Are you just curious or does it matter to you?
A good poll would be -

If you claim to be a christian -
__ are you a real Christian displaying Christ like qualities
__ are you a born-again Christian (aka hate filled inbreed)

[Cannikin]

302. Yes, And gay too!

Try to compute that, freepers!:freak: