Freepers scared Dems might use outsourcing issue against them (class war)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/956435/posts

From what I've read on DU, I don't think Bush has anything to worry about.

[Bandit]

1. Please don't link us to that horrid site

If you have something to say about those people say it but don't link us top their site. I refuse to go there and I truely wonder about those people who do visit that site.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

2. I'm not afraid of freepers

I wonder about people who are afraid to read the rhetoric of the other side myself. Republicans are afraid of Bush's recent "screw you" attitude about Americans losing their jobs to outsourcing. They are openly threatening to vote against Bush, and sit out the election. They are scared Democrats will use this issue to divide Republicans.

Sure, we can put out hands in front of our eyes to avoid seeing the scary freepers, but some of us want to win elections.

[Bandit]

8. I'm not scared of a pile of shit ~ I just don't want to wallow in it.

But different strokes.

[wryter2000]

14. Oh, I don't know

I enjoy reading their dissatisfaction with Bush. It gives me real hope for 2004.

[fishnfla]

43. I'm not afraid of a pile of sand

But I dont want to stick my head in it.

You should check it out, in the first page 2 freepers claim "ANYONE BUT BUSH" thats about the 6th time in 2 days on this issue. This is a serious wedge issue.

[Redleg]

53. I like that figure of speach- may I borrow it?

[Brian Sweat]

19. I don't mind reading the thetoric of the other side.

it is the bile that they spew that I choose to insulate myself from.

[drdigi420]

13. Please KEEP linking us to that site

It's important for us to understand the enemy.

For the head-in-the-sand types, they can just NOT click the link.

[RamboLiberal]

63. Yes, please link to those sites

Sometimes you gotta dig in the sh*t for the diamonds. I'm not a put my head in the sand type. I believe you have to understand the enemy to defeat them. And it's about time all Dems stood up to the bullies of the RW.

[gristy]

16. Bandit - you really should go look

That thread is not horrid at all. I just read through about the first 25 posts. Go look at it. They are worried about their jobs.

Original freeper post:WASHINGTON: The Indian government and businesses have won a major assurance from the Bush Administration on the issue of outsourcing.

A senior US official has said Washington is against any attempt by state governments to legislate a ban on outsourcing on the lines of what is being considered in New Jersey and other states.

MORE...

And some comments on the original post and other comments:

1stFreedom: If this is true, this is one conservative who is voting for ANYBODY BUT BUSH next election.

tkathy: This is head up the fanny stupidity. Could easily cost him the election.

blackdog: Now where my wife works, they spend 24/7 lecturing employees on intellectual property, patent rights, secrecy, and fire people for leaving a file on their desk, that the cleaning crew might copy and sell to a competitor. At the same time they are sending their IT and MIS to India for cost savings. Now just what do you think happens to intellectual property then huh? Greedy buckin forons.

LibertyAndJusticeForAll: There are so many articles lately, I can't keep up. OUR wonderful Trade Representative (we know who he really represents) clearly has this administration's directive to reassure India. Looks like even our state government work will be theirs. I feel sick. No doubt it is time I sign up for one of Bush's community college programs so I can be reprogrammed into believing that Yankee Ingenuity exists only at the Corporate Exec level, that Globalisation and the One World Government are Utopia, that illegals are all legal, that our borders are not an opening for terorism and finally, Hatch is right, a non-American born should be President.

It just goes on and on.

[hang a left]

59. We need information to carry our

message to people who just don't get it if we are gonna revolt. I am ready to pound the streets. Please take a look at this.

http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/

[On the Road]

3. The Dem Candidate That Picks up on Outsourcing

as a campaign issue will gain an edge, especially given Buhs's boneheaded remarks at the press conference. This is a potentially big issue. The only one I can see doing it immediately is Kucinich, but I hope there are others.

Outsourcing of middle-class jobs has the potential to economically polarize this country and keep the economy stagnant. Globalization is coming home to roost.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

6. Gephardt and Kucinich

These are the ones that have made this an issue.

Dean, Kerry, and Lieberman either support it openly or in a more subtle way.

[TLM]

46. Not true... this is a big issue with Dean.

He has made several plans to stop this kind of thing. Mostly by saying that US companies that move over seas have to allow unions and have to continue to adhere to the standards they'd hve to meet inside the US regarding safety and polution etc.


This is one of the major issue he says he wants to use to win back the south... You've been voting republican for 30 years, and your job just went to India.

When the freepers are starting to wake up... you know Bush is fucked.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

57. NOT TRUE, Dean supports it - name ONE plan Dean has to "stop it"?

He has said so over and over again. Why won't the Dean people ADMIT that Dean is pro-NAFTA, says that corporate trade agreements are good, and has said that he wants more transfers?

I've read Dean's ONE interview posted a million times, but Dean supporters act like they can't read English. Dean is clear - he SUPPORTS corporate trade agreements like NAFTA.

[Walt Starr]

7. I just recommended it to Dean

via www.deanforamerica.com

The Dem that starts hitting hard on this right now will win the election.

[Brian Sweat]

15. Outsourcing is only viable as a campaign issue

if you have a reasonable solution to the problem. Simply railing against the problem will make the candidate look like a demagogue. If the solution is too heavy handed, it will just give the Republicans ammo.

[rfranklin]

18. You hit the mail on the head: "middle class" jobs...

going to India will turn the suburban Republican vote into Democrats (if there is a Dem willing to use it and forsake the piddling corporate contributions that usually buy them off.)

When the Reagan revolution screwed the labor union workers, the middle class middle management types were all gung ho for it, being loyal corporate serfs who knew which side their scraps of bread were buttered on. But now that the Republicans are shipping their jobs to New Delhi, it's gonna be a different story. (Not to mention the vacation days, health coverage, pensions and other benefits that are being taken away.)

Of course, the Bushistas will probably catch Osama and Saddam, leave Iraq, and benefit from another terrorist attack in the month before the elections, so everyone will be distracted. And, if that doesn't work, there's always the voting machines that count one for the Dems, two for the Republicans each time you touch the screen.

[lcordero]

22. Fritz Hollings said something about this

He favors keeping jobs in the US

[fishnfla]

45. Did he do a focus group on this?

Run it by his advisors? He's waaaaay out on limb here! <sarcasm off>

[liberalnurse]

33. Don't forget about the upcomming

Senate vote on overtime rules being changed....Calling for more middle-class jobs being titled as administrative and not entitled to overtime benefits.....a comptime clause is totally deceptive too....

[Melsky]

4. Linking to the freeps is OK

if you don't want to go there, just don't click on the link.

And I personally don't want to go there, so I'm not clicking the link! I have been there before and it makes me feel like a proctologist.

But if anyone wants to give a detailed report I'm all ears.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

5. I'm not going to give either party a pass on outsourcing.

I have not heard one dem candidate or Bush tell us EXACTLY what he is going to do to STOP the outsourcing trend. Everybody admits its a problem . . . but I wanna know whatcha gonna to do about it?

[StandWatie]

12. Dean has..

http://www.unemployedfordean.com/hd_on_jobs.htm

As President, I will work to eliminate tax policies that provide incentives for American firms to move manufacturing jobs offshore. (answer to question at AFL-CIO)



President Bush is leading the country in the wrong direction. He believes in cutting taxes for the wealthiest and moving the tax burden from unearned to earned income. His economic policies have turned a budget surplus into record deficits and contributed to the loss of more than two and half million jobs. I favor a much different approach.

As President, I will make job creation a top priority. Good jobs are the result of sound fiscal policies, progressive tax practices, and practical, necessary investments in our communities. Creating and keeping good jobs for Americans also requires the rigorous enforcement of fair trade policies. I will propose a comprehensive program of investments in health care, education, training, transportation and public works. I will do this in the context of a prudent policy to address the Bush legacy of mounting deficits, including repeal of both the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts. (from AFL-CIO website I give them all credit for this AFL_CIO.COM)

[thermodynamic]

25. I'll give him a chance even if it's true he supports NAFTA,

which is part of the problem I thought...

[StandWatie]

27. he says he's a fair trader

like linking labor rights and living wages to trade.

[Brian Sweat]

41. NAFTA is the North America Free Trade Agreement

It has nothing to do with tech jobs being shipped to India.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

44. NAFTA was first of the agreements that now allow tech jobs to go to India

NAFTA, CAFT, FTAA, GATT/WTO, MFN - they are all part of the same movement.

[ikojo]

51. DLC and CLINTON/GORE loved NAFTA, GATT and the WTO

Need I remind the group that it was BILL CLINTON and AL GORE (both are huge free traders who see the free movement of capital, but not labor as the answer to what ills befall the world) who used all available political avenues to get NAFTA passed? They KNEW that the Democratic base of working people were against it as were many Senators. They sold the farm (quite literally) to assure the passage of NAFTA.

Bill Clinton was more than happy to be in Seattle, not with the mass of protestors but with the corporate masters who rule the world. Those unions who support him and Gore (and now Gephardt) were in the streets while Clinton and Company were in the suites turning the screws on working people. Just like a DLCer.

Now the war on workers continues...at a time when working people are working longer hours, many stand a chance to lose the right to overtime pay. On July 10, 2003 when there was an opportunity for Democrats to come to the defense of working people SEVEN of them were not present to vote or did not vote. Among those seven was that friend of unions, Gephardt. The vote to override Bush's changes in overtime laws lost by a three vote margin.

While union people may not worry as much about losing overtime pay because they have negotiated contracts, most American workers are not in a union. To the union people: think about us. Call Gephardt on his lack of a vote on July 10!

[Brian Sweat]

61. Not really

No laws ever had to be past to allow tech jobs to be moved over sees.

All of those free trade agreements have to do with physical products. There was never a law in the country that said that a company would have to pay a terriff on software written in another country or on a phone line that goes to another country.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

62. FALSE

"All of those free trade agreements have to do with physical products."

Absolutely FALSE.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

31. Dean's "fair trade" means MORE outsourcing

As has been posted here a million times. How exactly will this help? I mean, aside from at some point in the distant future, when we are all dead?

[StandWatie]

35. if they had to pay a living wage

they wouldn't do it at all, the expense and hassle of dealing with a foreign workforce is only offset because they can pay them damn near nothing.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

36. Gephardt is for the international living wage, Dean is against it

Try again. Dean is pro-corporate trade, and he has been consistent about it. In fact, I believe Dean specifically said he was against "wage parity".

[StandWatie]

39. err..

Free trade must equal fair trade. We are subsidizing the sometimes awful environmental practices of our trading partners, and we are subsidizing the profits of multinational corporations by not having international labor standards. If free trade allows General Motors to set up a plant in Mexico, free trade should allow the UAW to organize that plant under conditions similar to those in the US. This isn't wage parity; I am asking for shared ground rules.

Source: Campaign web site, DeanForAmerica.com, "On the Issues" Nov 30, 2002

http://www.issues2000.org/2004/Howard_Dean_Free_Trade.htm

par·i·ty1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-t)
n. pl. par·i·ties
Equality, as in amount, status, or value.

parity would mean an international minimum wage vs. living wage

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

42. nowhere does Dean call for an international wage

living or minimum. Where? The paragraph you quoted says nothing about the issue at all.

[TLM]

49. No he calls for consistant standards....

not static numbers for all... rather static value.

If a company has to allow a union, and has to meet safety and polution standards, just like in the US, and has to pay a living wage, that right there dried up the reasons for outsources in the first place.

I think trying to set a global minimum wage would cause problems as the cost of living is so different in so many places.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

50. Dean's position on this is no different than the Republicans

Dean is just re-playing "Most Favored Nation" status, nothing new. Even the Republicans admit we need "standards" now too. The cats out of the bag - Dean supported NAFTA, all the free trade agreements, and he has no problem with firing American workers and sending jobs overseas.

When Dean comes out and says "NAFTA was a mistake, US corporations need to be loyal to Americans" - then maybe I'll vote for him.

[w4rma]

54. That is untrue, WhoCountsTheVotes

As President, I will work to eliminate tax policies that provide incentives for American firms to move manufacturing jobs offshore. (answer to question at AFL-CIO)

President Bush is leading the country in the wrong direction. He believes in cutting taxes for the wealthiest and moving the tax burden from unearned to earned income. His economic policies have turned a budget surplus into record deficits and contributed to the loss of more than two and half million jobs. I favor a much different approach.

As President, I will make job creation a top priority. Good jobs are the result of sound fiscal policies, progressive tax practices, and practical, necessary investments in our communities. Creating and keeping good jobs for Americans also requires the rigorous enforcement of fair trade policies. I will propose a comprehensive program of investments in health care, education, training, transportation and public works. I will do this in the context of a prudent policy to address the Bush legacy of mounting deficits, including repeal of both the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts. (from AFL-CIO website I give them all credit for this AFL_CIO.COM)
http://www.unemployedfordean.com/hd_on_jobs.htm

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

56. how so, w4rma?

On the major issue of the last 50 years, corporate power over democratic governments, Dean has placed himself squarely on the pro-corporate side.

Many Republicans have offered similar legislation - what Dean is proposing is no different than "Most Favored Nation" status - a joke, as no politician is going to have the power or clout to stop trade with China over environmental or labor issues.

I wonder if Dean is going to suggest the president get "fast-track" power, like Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Bush did? That way, he can keep Congress, our representatives, out of the business of negotiating these trade treaties?

The ONLY candidates offering something different than Bush, Dean, Kerry, and Lieberman are Gephardt and Kucinich.

[Gingersnap]

60. but a living wage

in India or Bangladesh or even Mexico is at least five times less than it is here (even if you count the stagnant minimum wage of the US). Ever been to India? You can stay in a hotel for $1 a day. Ever been to non-touristy parts of Mexico? It's still cheaper for them! Implementing a living wage in foreign countries for US business to employ their citizens will not do much to alleviate outsourcing.

[qb]

9. Funny how exposing class warfare is branded as "class warfare"

[SnohoDem]

29. It's only called "Class Warfare" when we fight back.

Otherwise, it's "just business".

[On the Road]

10. I Actually Appreciate the Links to FR

Partly because I never go there, and because it's good to see threads like this.

I'm particularly pleased and surprised with some of the critical comments and exchanges:

Let me understand this... all of you so-called "good conservatives" are upset because Bush is against using the powers of the government to dictate to businesses how they can and can't operate?

(Reply 1) Some of us are even supportive of child labor laws. It's just terrible having a social conscience.

(Reply 2) CORRECT! You must appreciate that not all freepers are retarded libertarians and free market uber alles types. The real world is immune to air fairy theories

(Reply 3) Seems like he is using the power of government that arose from thousands of pages of government-to-government trade agreements. (Which lobbyists could see but our Reps could not). Mr. President your mission 'if you care to accept it' is to grow jobs in America not foreign lands.


"If this is true, this is one conservative who is voting for ANYBODY BUT BUSH next election." Seconded here. This, coupled with the fact that he won't protect us from the invasion by illegal aliens, just about does it. He's destroying our country, our culture, our freedoms and our right to make a living in the land of our birth. ENOUGH!!!

I just spent the last 6 months training my replacement who happens to reside in India. Just waiting for the other shoe to drop now. My company can hire three people in India for what it costs to retain me.

Bush is a fool. Odds are that some Democrat will seize this issue (as Christopher Dodd is already starting to) and win the election with a broad base of middle class support.

Sadly, just about any service will be shipped overseas, following the manufacturing that left in the early 90's. And it won't be coming back.

This will directly lead to the destruction of the middle class in the USA, and probably a revolution down the road.

[drdigi420]

11. Wow, the freepers are really upset with this one

"BUSH SENDS JOBS OVERSEAS!"

Let's keep that mantra up for awhile.

[Walt Starr]

17. I predict that thread will be pulled in five or ten more minutes.

They cannot stand threads where people become critical of Bush.

WHOOOOOOSH, down the memory hole with that one!

[thermodynamic]

26. I saved it and will print'n'frame it

Apart from one or two typically "Bush to the biiter end" freaks, a lot of their posts are quite intruiging and show signs of hope.

[Liberal Veteran]

20. Wanna bet?

I work with about 500 people who are experiencing the joys of having their jobs outsourced to India.

And there is a lot of political anger about it.

One of my republican friends wrote to our congressional representative and got a reply back saying that the reason we were losing jobs was because there was a shortage of qualified American workers.

There are now about 500 copies of that reply letter in this building.

[cprise]

28. Congress to workers: "You Suck"

And the 'qualified' part is a crock. They use the absense of every last acronym and buzzword as an excuse not to hire an American. The tech sector moves too quickly to have more than a 50% skills match more than 50% of the time. If they want to keep inventing new buzzwords and tech-fashion all the time, then employers have to train their staff. That was supposed to be the 'American model' of education, and corps were saying years ago this was the reason why our tech sector was 'superior'.

Now look at them.

[Brian Sweat]

40. Qualified American workers are losing their jobs,

because there is a shortage of qualified American workers.

Orwell would be so proud.

You don't have a copy of this letter, do you?

[fishnfla]

48. question

Is the reason the freepers are upset with this because many of them are in IT business or is it because the foreigners are getting the Visas?

[thermodynamic]

21. Well, I'm hoping Dems WILL make an issue out of it! And thx for the link!

There are so many issues! In theory, winning 2004 would be even more of a landslide than 2002, which was plain and uneventful by comparison!

And thanks for the link! The freepers are making some good sense, or at least vibes I agree with them on. Maybe they're waking up? One even posted of a potential backlash. If more people were fully awake, the backlash would have started 2 years ago! Or even further if people knew about Enron and all the other corporations caught with their pants down with the accounting (gee, whatever happened to that and why was it so quietly buried?!)

[cprise]

24. and then we 'win' all their problems

the more i think about this, the more i feel we should concentrate on winning the House first.

[Liberal Veteran]

23. Plus we need to drive it home that Bush blames US workers for this...

During a Wednesday morning (July 30th) press conference, President Bush was asked a question about jobs going overseas as a result of technological innovation. His response was:

"I fully understand what you're saying. In other words, as technology races through the economy, a lot of times worker skills don't keep up with technological change."

[pbeal]

32. good god why was this not a follow up question?

How in the world does a third world country like India outpace the united states in keeping its worker skills up to date?

[Rainbowreflect]

30. Could this be from a closet DUer?

"Judge, people may begin to realize that Bush would rather lose the election than leave his investors with less cash."

[charlie]

34. I love watching

these so-called free marketeers and globalists using the "states rights" fig leaf to hide their naked desperation for gov't intervention to protect their sorry asses. They're killing themselves trying not to recognize they've gone "progressive" on this one big issue.

[bleedingheart]

37. Oh I think its a big ISSUE and we should use it!

[XNGH]

38. Offshoring

Duh-bia totally PISSED me off with that LAME ASSED comment that our high tech workers (I'm one of them) are NOT skilled enough. All he wants to do is make money for his big business buddy's ... and if millions of Americans lose their jobs because of it ... tough shit.
So tell you what King Friggin George ... you can kiss my liberal friggin ASS.

[janx]

47. I think he pissed a lot of people off with that one...

And as stupid as that man is, I still cannot believe he was stupid enough to say that.

But you are looking at a guy who thinks that community colleges are only for job training.

He has NO IDEA what it's like to have to work for a living.

[newyawker99]

58. Hi XNGH!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[w4rma]

52. Links to some DU threads on the Cheap Labor Party

President blames unemployment on lack of skills
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=45247&mesg_id=45247

Freepers Actively Jumping Ship
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=40475&mesg_id=40475&page=

Outsourcing to usurp more U.S. jobs (1 of every 10 IT Jobs)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=40609&mesg_id=40609&page=

Will someone tell Bush* and big business that foreign outsourcing is bad?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=46681&mesg_id=46681&page=

[onecitizen]

55. .....and well they should!!! nt

nt