It's August 2005, Induction Begins, Your 18 year old Son has......

[hang a left]

9 months left of high school. Leaving the country is not an option. Kid has money to go to a university. What would you do, considering the parameters of SR89 as follows;

snip>
(c) EARLY TERMINATION- The period of national service for a person under this Act shall be terminated before the end of such period under the following circumstances:

(1) The voluntary enlistment and active service of the person in an active or reserve component of the uniformed services for a period of at least two years, in which case the period of basic military training and education actually served by the person shall be counted toward the term of enlistment.

(2) The admission and service of the person as a cadet or midshipman at the United States Military Academy, the United States Naval Academy, the United States Air Force Academy, the Coast Guard Academy, or the United States Merchant Marine Academy.

(3) The enrollment and service of the person in an officer candidate program, if the person has signed an agreement to accept a Reserve commission in the appropriate service with an obligation to serve on active duty if such a commission is offered upon completion of the program.

snip>



SEC. 7. INDUCTION EXEMPTIONS.

(a) QUALIFICATIONS- No person may be inducted for military service under this Act unless the person is acceptable to the Secretary concerned for training and meets the same health and physical qualifications applicable under section 505 of title 10, United States Code, to persons seeking original enlistment in a regular component of the Armed Forces.

(b) OTHER MILITARY SERVICE- No person shall be liable for induction under this Act who--

(1) is serving, or has served honorably for at least six months, in any component of the uniformed services on active duty; or

(2) is or becomes a cadet or midshipman at the United States Military Academy, the United States Naval Academy, the United States Air Force Academy, the Coast Guard Academy, the United States
Merchant Marine Academy, a midshipman of a Navy accredited State maritime academy, a member of the Senior Reserve Officers' Training Corps, or the naval aviation college program, so long as that person satisfactorily continues in and completes two years training therein.


SEC. 8. CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTION.

(a) CLAIMS AS CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR- Any person selected under this Act for induction into the uniformed services who claims, because of religious training and belief (as defined in section 6(j) of the Military Selective Service Act (50 U.S.C. 456(j))), exemption from combatant training included as part of that military service and whose claim is sustained under such procedures as the President may prescribe, shall, when inducted, participate in military service that does not include any combatant training component.

[hang a left]

1. Please I need some help.

I am kicking myself. Should I encourage him towards an officer candidate school? He wants to be a doctor, anyway, he thinks so now. Might even get a baseball scholarship. What would you do if this was your boy.

[camero]

2. I would go for

Conscientious Objector. Then leave the country after school lets out.

[mac2]

88. Vote for a anti-war guy....

[Norquist Nemesis]

3. Link?

[hang a left]

5. Here ya go.

http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:SN00089:

[nini]

4. I'm confused.... is the draft back in place?

just send him to college and deal with this stuff if it comes up - which at that time I would file conscientious objector

[hang a left]

7. Not yet.

But there are two bills in congress see link posted in my previous post. They have been quietly filling draft board positions for a few months. I am one of those people that think that the draft is coming regardless of what administation we have after 04. I just want to keep my son off the front lines and I want to make sure that I have a fail-safe plan for him.

[nini]

10. ok.. put him in college and if the worst comes..

do the objector thing.


I had one brother go to Vietnam, another was an objector and the 3rd was in college and didn't have to go. The objector one still hasn't forgiven my vet brother for enlisting to avoid a crappier assignment :eyes: (that didn't work for him as he ended up in nam anyway).


Good luck. Hopefully you won't have to worry about this at all.

[hang a left]

12. I have thought of that, but I am not sure if it will be

fail-safe. Since I cannot control whether or not his contientious objection will be accepted.

on edit took out a 'not'

[Gruenemann]

14. Student deferments are a thing of the past

I've seen some recommendations here for 'send the kid to college.' Read the list of deferements above, and you'll see the only kind of education they'll accept is military academy. It's my understanding that student deferments have been given the deep six; an underclass draftee will be allowed to finish the semester before reporting and seniors will be allowed to finish the year. Scary, huh?

[AngryAmish]

24. No more college deferments

If I recall correctly. They let you finish the semester, then off you go to serve your country.

[Sotarr2004]

39. They put a LOT of bills in The Regress. . .

. . .not many pass.

Relax. . .

[Media_Lies_Daily]

13. You need to read the bill closely because there is NO deferment...

...for anyone attending college, only for the successful completion of high school PRIOR to being inducted. Read Section 6.

Read Section 7. There ARE induction exemptions which include:

1. prior service in the military;

2. current service in the military;

3. current attendance at one of the service academies: West Point, Air Force Academy, Naval Academy, Coast Guard Academy, Merchant Marine Academy, or a midshipman of a Navy accredited State maritime academy, a member of the Senior Reserve Officers' Training Corps, or the naval aviation college program, so long as that person satisfactorily continues in and completes two years training therein.

Section 8 concerns Conscientious Objector status. My personal take on this section is that they will make it very tough to obtain that status...unless you're a member of the "correct" religions, and/or a member of a very wealthy family. COs were oftentimes used as medics during WWII, Korea, and Vietnam...technically not involving combat training, but right in the thick of combat nonetheless.

Additionally, loopholes have been closed over the last three years with countries that allowed kids to take refuge during the Vietnam War.

[karabekian]

6. Anyone else have a problem

with HR 163. A bill that was introduced and co-sponsored by democrats to reinstate the draft? You can search for the bill text and sponsors here: <http://thomas.loc.gov/home/c108query.html|>

Sponsor: Rep Rangel, Charles B. -- Democrat -- (introduced 1/7/2003)

Co Sponsers
Rep McDermott, Jim - 1/7/2003 -- Democrat
Rep Conyers, John, Jr. - 1/7/2003 -- Democrat
Rep Lewis, John - 1/7/2003 -- Democrat
Rep Stark, Fortney Pete - 1/7/2003 -- Democrat
Rep Abercrombie, Neil - 1/7/2003 -- Democrat

Is this real or just politics in a election year. It scares me

[hang a left]

9. Anyone else have a problem with

Charles B. Rangel being a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and the Trilateral Commission?

[Norquist Nemesis]

11. Yes. Both House and Senate are sitting on it

and that Rangel did this just irks me. I have a son (19) and daughter (16). I can't see my son being approved due to his asthma and being severely overweight (aside from really bad flat feet LOL), but my daughter's another story.

Shit! :(

[frankly_fedup2]

35. I saw Rangel discussing this on one of "Fair and Balanced"

HANNITY and colmes show.

His reasoning was the fact that there wasn't one (or maybe there was only one) member of Congress that had a child in the military.

He stated (sic) that he felt if the draft was brought back, these hawks would not be such war thumpers if there was a chance their kids would get drafted. Can you imagine young
Laura and Barbara Bush getting drafted?

He stated (sic) that most of our young men and women in the military enlisted because they come from poor to lower middle-class, socioeconomic backgrounds and this was their only chance for making the money for college and/or training.

What really pops my cork is the fact that in the past weeks, the pResident of the U.S. has been standing in front of crowds of our young men and women in uniform. When you are the Commander and Chief, and give a speech in front of enlisted personnel, there can be no booing . . . only cheering. They cannot even give their honest opinion against the war (if they are) or they can be brought up on charges of treason.

He needs to make his little speeches in front of the American People, who can tell him what they think of him.

[Sotarr2004]

44. About those GI's. . .

Frankly_fedup2 intoned:

What really pops my cork is the fact that in the past weeks, the pResident of the U.S. has been standing in front of crowds of our young men and women in uniform. When you are the Commander and Chief, and give a speech in front of enlisted personnel, there can be no booing . . . only cheering. They cannot even give their honest opinion against the war (if they are) or they can be brought up on charges of treason.

Uh, most of them, from my experience, are good little Limbots who actually LIKE the Chimp's policies. . . .they don't WANT to boo him.

I noticed that when I was in in the 1980's: the military is becoming more and more Repugnican. . .

[Cptn Kirk]

53. Rangel is a fool

if he even pretends to believe a repubs (or hawk dem) kid is going to go.

[mac2]

91. Does this draft include the Bush girls?

[Muddleoftheroad]

52. Overweight is no excuse

The military has a good training program for that. Asthma will probably keep him out of uniform.

[KharmaTrain]

8. My Son's Class Of '06...

And I'm very concerned what options may be available if this invasion misadventure continues.

It's a similar feeling to what I felt 30 years ago when I was graduating and facing the possibility of a government-paid trip to the delightful Republic of Viet Nam.

Fortunately my son has good grades and college should be in his future, thus at this point I keep a wary eye on the military situation and the deployments and stop loss orders and gauge accordingly. Quite arrogantly I think that since we live in a predominately Repugnican area that we'd be less likely for the Selective Service to swoop down than say kids in the inner city or poor white, blue-collar neighborhoods (unions). These are gonna be the first to go.

We've discussed what goes on and my son and his friends are very, very concerned about a possible future draft, but says many of the kids in his school are sure they'd never go to war or that * will win it before they have to face it. Remember those promises, Viet Nam era DU'ers??? Blind obidience gets you killed.

In our private chats on the matter, I told my son about looking at options of military branches he could survive in should he face having the enlist or be drafted option. Both of us have ruled out running or CE status...this one we're gonna fight within...you see how much things done by the 70's era protestors have been so twisted 30 years later.

My son turns 18 in October, 2005 my goal until then is regime change!

On Edit: Put my son's 18th bday at 2007...duh!

[trogdor]

17. Mine's Class of '07.

He says he's an athiest, but I'd talk him into joining the Quakers or something.

[stevedeshazer]

32. My only son turns 18 in November 2005.

He is on record as a conscientious objector.

There are a number of excellent resources online. A couple are here:

http://www.objector.org/

http://www.nisbco.org/

[mac2]

89. Right...vote for anti-war candidate

Bug the other candidates about it. Call and complain to your representatives...especially Repubs.

[starroute]

15. Don't count on CO status being an option

I was researching this a year ago, because I also have sons of draftable age. The information that I came up with suggested that if they reinstitute the draft, they are going to make CO status far less attainable than it was at the time of Vietnam. And even as things are defined now, CO status is extremely difficult to get, especially if you are not affiliated with a pacifist religion, like the Quakers.

Even if you do have such an affiliation, you have to offer hard proofs of your deep and long-term commitment to the creed of that religion. If you are not affiliated with any church, you are expected to lay out a detailed philosophical system of your own, explain how you arrived at that system, give logical arguments for why your beliefs prevent you from fighting, and offer proofs that you have actually been living in accordance with that system. How many 18 year olds could possibly do all that?

In addition, when you apply for CO status you are not allowed to raise any Just War arguments. It's all or nothing. You have to be able to swear that even if alien monsters were rampaging down your street and threatening to rape your sister, you would not lift a finger. You can also be required to perform some sort of non-combat service -- you can't say, "This war is immortal and I will do nothing that could support it or free up regular military personnel for combat duty."

So, all in all, it's not an option for many.

[KharmaTrain]

20. The Military Isn't Stupid

They've had 30 years to close up the Vietnam loopholes...look at how the guard has been transformed.

I'm not surprised this status has changed as well...especially with this zealot at the helm. I remember proving CO status in the Nam era was tough (down the list of options...many ran north first) since converts were immediately dismissed and only a few religions (Quakers being one, Amish another) that were kinda "grandfathered" in. You had to show a lifelong affiliation or some kind of ordained status to get serious consideration.

Also those who think fleeing is going to be an option...especially to Canada should think twice...especially with this regime and its ability to squeeze our "friends" economically in so many different ways. The Homeland Security and Patriot acts also would clamp down on the transfer of any funds from mom and dad and infiltrate any other support groups. Few remember how organized things became during the Viet Nam era and the risks many took...but it also took 4 years of slaughter and 500,000 troops on the ground to get things really rolling. Let's hope we can put the brakes on this runaway quagmire before it gets to that point.

[kcwayne]

16. Do what Muhammad Ali did

He filed for CO status. It was rejected. He accepted jail time in lieu of committing acts against his conscience.

He was clearly being made an example of. One way to avoid that is to get a grassroots campaign going so that there are thousands of cases to deal with. The government is unlikely to want to deal with tens of thousands of people saying "Hell no we won't go" and throwing them in jail for a long time.

The question you have to ask yourself is would 6 months to a year in jail be too high a price to pay for not dying or committing murder in the name of a government?

[hang a left]

18. I don't think I want my son to spend 6 months in jail.

I really was thinking along the lines of an officer school. But I don't know thing one about it. I was hoping for DUer's to direct me in the right direction. Like apply here or make sure he does this, ect. I want him alive and not incarcerated, he is my world.

[kcwayne]

27. Officers can die in battle just like grunts

Marine Corp Lieutentants in Viet Nam had the highest casualty rate among officers. There were lots of urban legends about them getting fragged. I have known two vets who said their lieutenant was fragged.

That aside, you can always enlist when you are drafted, and if you have a high school diploma you can get into the Navy. Most of the nations that we will be fighting have no defense against our Navy so those guys are safe.

If you want to guarantee your spot in a low risk service job, he could enlist in NROTC (Naval ROTC) if the school has a program.

If you have a degree you can enlist at officer grade, they will send you to Officers Training upon enlistment. If you don't have a degree but have some very specialized skill or can pass accelerated aptitude tests you can petition to enlist as an officer, but this is less likely to happen, especially when the draft is on.

Bottom line, stay out of the Marine Corp and the Army if you don't want your son to be fighting Arabs who are are not fighting back with cruise missles.

[Dark]

51. Hey, I'm eighteen and . . .

I don't want to become Bubba's "significant other". If Americans are stupid enough to elect him again(?) and they restart the draft then I am leaving. America will be beyond help.

[newyawker99]

78. Hi Orion523!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Tyler Durden]

19. Leaving the country is the best option.

MacGill in Montreal is the equal of any medical school in the hemisphere at half the cost of Harvard.

Get a student visa, and STAY. If your aren't a full fledged DESERTER, then even under the new laws they won't make him leave.

Or, he can claim he's a practicing Homosexual. That always works.

[hang a left]

21. Thanks! That is the kind of help I am looking for.

Blessings to you and yours.

[JohnyCanuck]

70. Small correction, Tyler, it's spelled McGill not MacGill

My Dad's a proud alumnus of McGill, so I felt somewhat obliged to point out the mistake. http://www.mcgill.ca/ Although McGill is located in Montreal, Quebec, it is an English speaking institution and the language of instruction is English. You'll find that most Montrealers are quite adept at speaking French or English so you won't have problems living in Montreal if you don't know French. They are quite accustomed to dealing with unilingual anglophones. On my visits to Montreal or Quebec City, I usually start off speaking in my high school French if I sense the person I am talking to is Francophone, just to show I am trying to make the effort. 9 times out of 10 they switch into English in response within a couple of sentences as soon as it becomes obvious that their English is significantly better than my French.

[proud patriot]

22. Apply for the Naval Academy

luckily My family has legacy consideration for
the Naval Academy . I believe this would be my son
best choice . I could be wrong but I would much
rather have him in the Navy on a course to be an officer
than going to the Army as a private .

[hang a left]

23. Thanks so much!!!!!!

[bluestateguy]

25. Options

Have him gain a lot of weight so he is too fat to serve, or have a doctor come up with some creative excuse like hemorroids or boil on his butt. Or he could always introduce the draft board to his "special friend" Lance ;)

[GRClarkesq]

26. Rangel does not expect his bill to pass

he is just scoring political points.

The official spin on the draft board notices is that people serve 20 year terms and many were expiring. Thus, the slots had to be filled. People began talking about the draft when Selective Service put up request for applicants on the DOD website. Notice was later taken down.

My understanding is that the draft boards are always filled and that there was no period after the end of the draft in 1973 that draft boards were dissolved. The draft boards have always been there, just unused.

Do you even need an act of Congress to restart the draft? The draft boards are there waiting, does the President just issue an executive order?

[bluestateguy]

28. reply

Do you even need an act of Congress to restart the draft? The draft boards are there waiting, does the President just issue an executive order?

Congress does have to authorize a draft, BUT if this president were to declare the equivalent of a national emergency i.e. Red Alert, he could probably find some technicality in the law which would allow him to authorize the draft by executive order.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

34. If he declares martial law, he can do anything he wants...

...what are the chances that something major will happen between now and November that will enable Junior to do just that?

[GRClarkesq]

46. Very small

If didnt declare martial law on 9/11 when is he going to?

Martial law would require unrest on a national scale.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

67. Let me spell this out for you...

...another "terrorist attack" on the scale guaranteed to trigger martial law will be, by definition, a significant event.

For instance:

1. A small nuke detonated in a port city on the west coast where the prevailing wind currents are almost always blowing to the east. Not only would their be a large number of casualties, but their would also be lingering effects in terms of people that would die over the next several weeks and land/buildings left unusable for decades, if not more.

2. A chemical or biologic attack on the west coast that would also use the prevailing west to east wind patterns to extend the area effected by the weapon. Again, deaths at the point of the initial attack would be in the thousands, with lingering effects over the next several weeks.

Get the picture now?

[zonmoy]

48. Extremely high

Either his puppets in the security agencies or his controllers in mossad will do something to trigger it.

[GRClarkesq]

49. OK

[Media_Lies_Daily]

33. The Selective Service has been given $25 mill to get their...

...systems up and running by early 2005. Rangel's House bill and the Senate bill are virtually identical at this point in time...I don't see how this will NOT be signed into law unless there is a Dem in the White House and he refuses to sign it.

Click on the link below for general information:

SELECTIVE SERVICE SYSTEM
<http://www.sss.gov/>

Click on this link to uncover more details about the ongoing preparation for the draft:

ANNUAL PERFORMANCE PLAN FISCAL YEAR 2004
<http://www.sss.gov/perfplan_fy2004.html>

Excerpts:

"Strategic Goal 1: Increase the effectiveness and efficiency of the Manpower Delivery Systems (Projected allocation for FY 2004 – $7,942,000)"

"Strategic Goal 2: Improve overall Registration Compliance and Service to the Public (Projected allocation FY 2004 – $8,769,000)"

"Strategic Goal 3: Enhance external and internal customer service
(Projected allocation for FY 2004 – $10,624,000)"

"Strategic Goal 4: Enhance the system which guarantees that each conscientious objector is properly classified, placed, and monitored.(Projected allocation for FY 2004 – $955,000)"

[karabekian]

36. why the dems proposed it

why would you think they wouldn't sign it?

[hang a left]

38. you think the repugs won't sign it?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

40. I thought I stated pretty plainly that...

...the bill will pass, and will be signed into law unless a Dem is in the White House.

If I remember correctly, the Dems proposed the legislation as a means to hold Junior's feet to the fire, thinking that he would never go as far as he has.

They were wrong.

Junior will go quite a bit further than anyone ever dreamed unless he and his kind are removed from the centers of power.

[GRClarkesq]

47. The bills have not even left committee

Junior is a POLTICIAN - he will do what he can with what he has, but he is not going to commit political suicide with the draft. Even if he waited till after the election he would take his party off a cliff if he proposed restarting the draft. ITS ALL ABOUT STAYING IN POWER! Do you think Karl Rove is going to advise the President to restart the draft to get his poll numbers up?

This is why there are not going to be any more invasions anytime soon. No troops left! The PNACers are trying to get Syria and Iran to collapse under pressure. This is why the administration made nice with the Chinese, so they would not cause any problems while the US is engaged elsewhere.

Rangel et al were scoring politcal points by illustrating that not all Americans were bearing the burden of war equally.

[hang a left]

50. I didn't hear anyone say they are gonna pass it this year.

My hypothetical is for 2005. It just feels so good that those bills are there for us. Also that they have appropriated 20,000,000 to get the draft boards operational by March 2005.

[GRClarkesq]

61. Why would anti-war Dems sponsor the bill?

If Bush really tried for a draft they would fight tooth and nail to stop him.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

64. I would have believed that once if I hadn't seen how they behaved...

...with the Patriot Act, Patriot Act II, Homeland Security, and the latest $87 billion package for Iraq. Of course, that was after anthrax was delivered to a few key Democrats in Congress, wasn't it?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

62. Who posted anything about the draft bill passing THIS year?...

Who the heck are you lecturing? After following the political process for more than 40 years, I understand exactly how it works.

And why is anyone here assuming that we will even HAVE elections this coming November?

IMHO, we'll have another "terrorist attack" this summer or in the early fall that will allow Junior to declare martial law and postpone the elections indefinitely.

Concurrently, he will order the 300 National Guard tank battalions that were called up nationwide before the invasion of Afghanistan to be on standby alert. Didn't know about those units? Do a seach on Google and you might be surprised at what you find.

<http://boston.indymedia.org/newswire/display/7349/index.php>
<http://www.thememoryhole.org/alabama-guard.htm>

Junior will use the "national emergency" to request that Congress immediately pass the military draft so that he can sign it into law. The Selective Service System will be ordered to step up their activities to allow the draft to begin functioning sometime before Christmas 2004. The invasions of both Syria and Iran will take place sometime before summer of 2005.

No, Junior isn't a very good politician...he's a dictator.

[GRClarkesq]

75. Get a grip!

300 tank battalions? The US Army, Reserves and NG do not have anywhere near 300 tank battalions combined.

Article is either bogus or written by an idiot.

The purported press release shows 300 soldiers were activated, wow.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

80. You really don't have a clue, do you?...

Do a little research and then post your apology.

[alittlelark]

42. Saw Rangel on a News show a year or so ago...

He said that he is proposing the bill to attempt to prevent going into wars. His rationale was that if there were no loopholes for rich and/or politically prominant families, there would be no draft for war. He is attempting to pre-empt the draft of the past with new rules.

[hang a left]

43. Yep, I remember what he said his justification was....

I don't buy it. Now we have two bills one in the senate and one in the house. Pesty little bugars aren't they.

[Cptn Kirk]

59. This is as lame as the Kerry was tricked by Bush excuse

Rangel is a fool. I dare anyone to tell me they truly believe a repub controlled house and senate will let this bill pass with out exemptions for the rich and their kids. They will amend it with exemptions and pass it. End of story. YOUR kids will be going, theirs won't. Good job.

[Cptn Kirk]

57. The President can executive order anything

The ONLY way to override an exec order is 1. An act of congress against it or 2. The SCOTUS striking it down. Executive orders can even be classified from the general public and even certain elected officials.

The Pres could very well executive order concentration camps to be built, and it would be law unless congress or the SCOTUS acted.

[ChiefJoseph]

29. I think DUers are entirely too worried about the draft.

First, it's not coming back. There's just no way public support is behind it.

Second, even if it does come back, it's not difficult at all to avoid military service. If you're dead set against serving in the military, guess what, the military doesn't want you. Simply declaring that you're a conscientious objector or even that you're gay is enough to avoid the service.

Third, even if the draft comes back and your son can't manage a conscientious objector status, it's not difficult to get a non-combat MOS in the service.

The notion that our kids are going to be forcibly pressed into service and sent to the front lines to do battle in this day in age is ludicrous.

[hang a left]

30. Yeah....OK

Like public support is needed for anything these days. You obviously have not read the entire bill or its companion in the house.

[Snow]

41. Look carefully at the bill....

names on it include Conyers and McDermott. These are not just dems, they are honorable, liberal, bush-fighting dems. So what are they doing with this bill? IMHO they are bringing the 'your son could die because of bush' issue forward, forcing the issue of the social inequality of the armed forces, and forcing the issue of unfair deferments. I believe the right wingers & wealthy will be horrified by this bill - no way out for their kids??!! - and will do everything they can to keep it from moving forward. Their alternative is to attempt to (very quietly) write in all the little loopholes for the sons of the wealthy - and I don't think Conyers, McDermott et al will let them get away with that. The bill is after exposing the essential social injustice in how we fight wars.

By the way, there are three traditional peace churches - the quakers, the mennonites (including the old order amish) and the brethren. The latter two are seriously conservative, and the quakers really expect a committment. However, there's a lot of 70-and 80-something Quakers around who did serious draft counselling in the 60's, so they're good people to talk to about your options - and they have kept up to date, for old folks these are energetic social activists. Also, things like conscientious objection status used to be decided by the local board. In Indiana, where there're a lot of Quakers, the local boards during the 60's were very harsh about CO status - they made it very tough. You might think about how a group of locals would view CO applicants. If you live in Indiana, you might want to move.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

66. You need to understand something real fast...that ploy backfired...

...because the NeoCons are working every day to bring the draft into being in mid-2005 or earlier.

Here's something else to think about...those that control the draft will also control who's sons and daughters do civilian duty in lieu of military service. Yes, that's correct...the sons and daughters of the wealthy will still have a way out of combat.

And one more point...there is no wiggle room in this bill for people wanting to avoid this draft. Loopholes with countries that accepted kids escaping the draft during Vietnam have been closed. CO status will be MUCH harder to get, and the most it will get you is a frontline medic position.

[Snow]

76. I'd be interested in seeing sources for that...

this is complete news to me.

[Snow]

79. Okay, I thought maybe you were engaging in a little fear-mongerin

without any real basis in fact. Looks like I was right.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

81. First, not everyone lives on this board. Second, I don't appreciate...

...your implication that I'm lying about this particular subject.

Follow the steps below:

First, read the text of S.89:

<http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:S.89:>

Now, read the text of H.R.163:

<http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.R.163:>

Here's the Selective Service website:

<http://www.sss.gov/>

Click on this link to find the Selective Service ANNUAL PERFORMANCE
PLAN for FISCAL YEAR 2004:

<http://www.sss.gov/perfplan_fy2004.html>

Excerpt:

"ANNUAL PERFORMANCE REPORT

An annual report providing the results of the implementation of these performance measures will be submitted by March 31, 2005. This report will address attained versus planned levels of performance, explain unattained target levels, and identify where and how strategies, performance goals, and performance indicators should be changed to ensure that the SSS reaches its strategic and annual goals and objectives."

Performance measure excerpts including the funding for each:

"Strategic Goal 1: Increase the effectiveness and efficiency of the Manpower Delivery Systems (Projected allocation for FY 2004 – $7,942,000)"

...SNIP...

"Strategic Goal 2: Improve overall Registration Compliance and Service to the Public (Projected allocation FY 2004 – $8,769,000)"

...SNIP...

"Strategic Goal 3: Enhance external and internal customer service
(Projected allocation for FY 2004 – $10,624,000)"

...SNIP...

"Strategic Goal 4: Enhance the system which guarantees that each conscientious objector is properly classified, placed, and monitored.(Projected allocation for FY 2004 – $955,000)"

Total funds allocated: approximately $25,000,000.


ADDITIONAL COMMENT DIRECTED AT SNOW:

Don't call me out in the future unless you've done your own homework and have something to refute the information in my posts.

[Snow]

83. There were nearly 12 hours between my first post and my second,

wondering where you were. That doesn't fit my definition of living on the board.

Re the rest, okay, nice links, but nothing new, nothing I haven't also looked at, and nothing to back up your argument. To wit:

"..because the NeoCons are working every day to bring the draft into being in mid-2005 or earlier.

Here's something else to think about...those that control the draft will also control who's sons and daughters do civilian duty in lieu of military service. Yes, that's correct...the sons and daughters of the wealthy will still have a way out of combat.

And one more point...there is no wiggle room in this bill for people wanting to avoid this draft. Loopholes with countries that accepted kids escaping the draft during Vietnam have been closed. CO status will be MUCH harder to get, and the most it will get you is a frontline medic position."

I don't see any of that in your links. I fail to see wherer the lonks show neocons are working daily to bring the draft back. I don't see how the people controlling the draft will control opt-out for the privileged. I don't disagree, I just don't see it. And I see the loopholes being closed, although I'm not so sure of your contention about CO status since that's traditionally been up to the local boards.

It could be you're right, but I think you're reading your opinion into things quite a lot, maybe even engaging in a little mind-reading. Legitimate exercise, but state it as such. Also, avoid that bold-face font; it's bad for your blood pressure.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

85. There are none so blind as those that cannot see...

...particularly those that either cannot nor will not read that which is in front of their noses. Did you actually read the information contained in the links or choose to dismiss it out of hand?

Have you not seen what the NeoCons have been capable of doing, and have actually done, since December 2000, or do you actually believe that they have no ulterior motives?

You either have a reading comprehension problem, or you're being deliberately obtuse. Neither option casts you in a real good light.

[Snow]

86. Yup, went there, did that.....

and I'm not saying I necessarily disagree with you, although I think your interpretations may be overblown. But what you imply simply is not in there. It's not a matter of comprehension; it's one of interpretation. And once again, watch your blood pressure.....

[leftchick]

31. hmmmm.....

"The notion that our kids are going to be forcibly pressed into service and sent to the front lines to do battle in this day in age is ludicrous."

I feel that is what we have done to our Guard and Reserves. Stop-loss is certainly forcing them to serve.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

37. First, did the public support the Patriot Act? Does the public support...

...the ongoing wars in Afghanistan and Iraq? Does the public support the wholesale destruction of the economy to benefit the wealthy?

Second & Third, it will be VERY difficult to avoid military service this time around. Loopholes have been closed with other countries that allowed kids to seek refuge during Vietnam, and CO status will earn you a job as a frontline medic. "Non-combat MOS"?? You mean like those kids in the transportation battalions that have been hit hard in Iraq?

And finally, you don't seem to understand or want to understand that the NeoCons don't care what we think...the draft will return following the 2004 election if Junior is somehow "reelected".

[Sotarr2004]

45. Really. . .

. . .have the kid show up publically at a Gay Pride march or two, and have him try to kiss the recruiter, and you're in like flint. . .

. . .or would that be "Out like Flint". . . :P

[Cptn Kirk]

60. Hmmm

"The notion that our kids are going to be forcibly pressed into service and sent to the front lines to do battle in this day in age is ludicrous."

You are correct. They will be an occupation force most likely. Safer than front line combat (generally), but still high risk.

[TrogL]

54. Can he pass for gay?

I'm not even sure if I'm kidding, but it would be ironic to use "don't tell, don't ask" against them.

[hang a left]

56. You mean my MVP of the highschool baseball and football

teams. Not a chance.

[TrogL]

68. There are gay athletes

[hang a left]

73. I didn't mean to imply that....

he just has too much on the record activity with cheerleaders.

[captain_change]

55. Not my Boy

This ex-paratrooper, armor officer has convinced his military minded 16 year old son that the Coast Guard is an honorable place to serve and hopefully live through the experience. I have encouraged more than one teenager to look at the Navy, Coast Guard or Air Force rather than the Army or Marine Corp. You can't believe how difficult this is for me, my family has a 2 century army tradition in this country, mostly as cavalry/armor officers

[RainDog]

84. What sort of medical conditions are exemptions?

My oldest son is high-functioning autistic. He functions well in school, but I cannot imagine they would want him because of his problems with physical clumsiness which are part of his brain wiring, as well as his near impossible ability to lie, as well as his naivete...he doesn't really "do" sarcasm, or perceive it in others.

I wouldn't imagine they would want him, unless it was for language training, which he is good at because of an exceptional memory, tho not an ability for nuance.

My other son was dx'd as bipolar, like his dad and grandad, and must take medication.

So I wonder if both of those pre-existing conditions are things which would exempt them.

[ewagner]

58. My son is 21

and is going to grad school in the fall.

I don't know where 21 (by 2005 he will be 22) year olds fall in the draft scheme but he and I have discussed the possibilities at length.

He has been actively recruited for both the Navy and the Air Force and they have guaranteed OCS (Officer's Candidate School) if he sign up. I told him to hold out until or if the draft actually makes a move. In his specialty there is very little chance he would see combat and I told him that one of the advantages of being an Officer is that he could keep the men under his command or others who will depend upon him for information and support safe, or, at the very least, maximize the chances of their survival through training and intelligent leadership.

It's not a perfect solution but given the circumstances it's about the only rational way out.

[Ysabel]

72. if they do it the same way they did last time...

well, i looked it last year up - cause i've got a 23 year old son - thankfully soon to be 24 and another son who is 21 (he'll be 22 this summer)...

anyway - it seems it took them quite awhile to get to the 22 year olds...

one of my friends, way back then - was called called during the last two weeks - he was 17 - that was a real drag - just those two weeks messed him up for the next few years...

anyway - what i read was that they did this switch back and forward again thing - i mean - starting first with - oh darn - i don't remember how exactly - i think it was 21 year olds - then they skipped back to 18 then up again to 19...sorry - i wish i could remember the exact way they did it - anyway - i was pretty sure from this jumping back and forth that it took quite awhile to get to 22...

if somebody knows exactly how it was let me / us know please - thanks...

have you ever have any bad ear infections (?) my youngest son had to get tubes - and they never did correct it completly - he has some permanant hearing loss - I was thinking that might be something that might keep him out...

another thing that might keep him out is that he's serving time in jail right now and probably headed to prison for the next few years...

by the way - concerning prison - jail was mentioned up above - i just keep reminding myself that there are quite a number of people there who are NOT hardened criminals and hopefully he'll be okay...

My other son flipped out for a couple of weeks and ended up in a psychiatric ward when he was 18 - was thinking something like that might be helpful too...

He kept laying down in the street saying that he wanted cars to run over him...

You could try that perhaps...

[hang a left]

74. Your post sent me searching. This is what I found.

http://www.sss.gov/WHHAP.HTM

I'll have to edit in a min

On edit



SELECTIVE SERVICE LOTTERY Printer Friendly Version

If and when the Congress and the President reinstate a military draft, the Selective Service System would conduct a National Draft Lottery to determine the order in which young men would be drafted.

The lottery would establish the priority of call based on the birth dates of registrants. The first men drafted would be those turning age 20 during the calendar year of the lottery. For example, if a draft were held in 1998, those men born in 1978 would be considered first. If a young man turns 21 in the year of the draft, he would be in the second priority, in turning 22 he would be in the third priority, and so forth until the year in which he turns 26 at which time he is over the age of liability. Younger men would not be called in that year until men in the 20-25 age group are called.

Because of the enormous impact of this lottery, it would be conducted publicly, with full coverage by the media. Accredited observers from public interest groups will have full access to observe the proceedings.

To make the lottery as fair as possible, the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) developed a unique random calendar and number selection program for Selective Service. Using this random selection method for birthdays, each day of the year is selected by computer in a random manner, and that date is placed in a capsule. The capsules are then loaded in a large drum on a random basis. By the same method, numbers from 1 to 365 (366 for men born in a leap year) are also selected in a random fashion, placed in capsules, and the capsules are placed into a second drum. The process, repeated a second time, results in two sets of drums. Official observers certify that the capsule-filling and drum-loading were conducted according to established procedures. This certification is secured to each drum; they are sealed and placed in secure storage. Should a lottery be conducted, one of the first actions would be an inspection of these stored drums and the selection of a set to be used in the lottery.

Here is how the lottery would work: One capsule is drawn from the drum containing birth dates January 1 through December 31. One capsule is then drawn from the drum containing the sequence numbers from 1 through 365 (366 if the draft will call men born during a leap year) and the date and number are paired to establish the sequence number for each birth date. This is done in full view of all observers, officials, and the media.

For example, if the date of August 4 is drawn first from the "date" drum, and the sequence number of 32 is drawn from the "number's" drum at the same time, then those men turning 20 on August 4 would be ordered for induction processing only after men whose birthdays drew sequence numbers 1 through 31. The drawings continue until all 365 (or 366) birthdays of the year are paired with a sequence number.

After the lottery is completed and results certified, the sequence of call is transmitted to the Selective Service System's Data Management Center. Almost immediately the first induction notices are prepared and sent via mailgram to men whose birth dates drew the lowest lottery numbers.

This system, based on random selection of birth dates, with the order of priority for reporting assigned in a scientifically random manner, is a fair and equitable method of calling men to serve.

[Ysabel]

93. thank you...

i have no idea where all my old links are...

[SmileyBoy]

63. I turn 23 on the 8th of September, 2005.

Do you think I could eek out of this thing lottery-wise??? That is, them never calling my number???

[hang a left]

65. The way the bill is written now it's

18-26. But I sure hope you can and my blessings to you.

[Sophree]

82. liberalnproud

Have you noticed some Congresspeople trying to tell us/warn us that this is coming? Without quite saying it? I'm thinking of DK.

I believe it's coming, too.

[leanings]

69. CG Reserves?

He could become a Coastie reservist, not much chance of seeing any shooting there. Or he could look into going in the Air National Guard or AF Reserves in a medical specialty. If he wants to be a doc it'll be a good head start. 99% of the AF Guard and Reserve positions are HIGHLY unlikely to see any shooting, and would probably be used to backfill stateside slots left open by deploying active duty members anyhow. There are technical slots, lots of aircraft mechanic stuff. He can sign up at seventeen, too, get in before the rush. And are you sure HE wants to stay out? Kid might end up going active Marines for all you know. ;)

Failing all that, the gay thing works. I had a buddy get out that way. I'm not sure how draft boards might deal with open declarations of homosexuality, but it's worth a shot. Another easy out is to have him say he's a chronic drug user. Have him tell the board that he's blowing rails three times a day and is seeking help to stop.

Anyhow, good luck.

[mac2]

90. The Reserves are in Iraq and Afghanistan right now....

National Guard also. We are defenceless here at home. Some of them are older and on the ground..35,etc.

Haven't heard about it in the media have we. They don't want them to get away. I wonder if Canada would send them back now?

If he says, he's taking drugs..it could go on his record. He could also go to jail for drug use. Bush didn't but we ordinary folks will.

vote for a anti-war guy.

[robertpaulsen]

71. Jim Morrison's induction center rejection

I just thought, to add a little humor to this post, I would quote from "No One Here Gets Out Alive" by Jerry Hopkins and Danny Sugerman about what Jim Morrison did confronting his own potential draft.

"Jim tampered with his blood pressure, blood sugar, heartbeat, respiration, vision, and speech with a wide and plentiful assortment of drugs, marched into the army induction center for his physical, told the doctors he was a homosexual and if they took him they'd be the sorriest motherfuckers on the face of the earth. He was refused for service".

All humor aside, if they re-enact the draft, we'll all have to find creative ways to combat it. It's scary, but Bush is capable of anything.

[PaDUer]

77. KICK n/t

[number6]

87. find a rich oil buddy with state gov connections, get the kid

in a Texas National Guard Unit that is flying an obsolete
aircraft, that has no chance of being sent to a war zone.

oops, that don't work these days, now they expect Guardsmen
to show up for duty ....

[carols]

92. I have an 18 and a 20 year old

Not to mention a 19 year old daughter - I don't believe that being female will be an exemption this time around either. The only thing I can think of is to try to get the boys in the Coast Guard. They don't see battle that often. I want the 20 year old to do it now before the rich guys get all the spots taken.
And Charlie Rangel is both an idiot and an asshole.
Carol