LETS FACE IT>

[DeathvadeR]

America is in the Shitter. We're on the mat and the ref is on 8. The country owes so much money we will never be able to pay it back. Fuqin burn those nazibanks anyway. damn near everyone one of its citizens are maxed on the cards/mortgage/vehicle payments too(is this calculated in the national debt?)... We will never recover. I say Let the whole country go bankrupt. We just have to all do it togeather. I hope the rest of the world doesn't find out that we have the strongest economy and shhh the biggest debt. We are living a pipedream off the backs of thirdworld labor.

Lets just take it and expect to be eating government cheese soon. It's really not that bad on macaronni.

LOOK INTO THE LIGHT CAROLANNE...LOOK INTO THE LIGHT

[quinnox]

1. Oh, Damn

I guess it is time to take up a new hobby. Politics is too damn depressing!

[politicaholic]

2. Whoa! Does someone need a hug?

Don't worry man, if we made it through the sheer ineptiude of the Reagan administration, the mental impotence of the Moron Prince shouldn't take this country down.

All I have to say to you is:

"Don't worry about the speck in your neighbor's eye when you got a log in yours."

Whatever the hell that means...

[BigMcLargehuge]

14. eye logs

I've been mulling over that idiotic line since I heard it yesterday and I still can't make sense of it.

I guess I'll have to put on my thinking wooded leg then make like a tree and appeal...

[Dirk39]

3. National debt is overrated by far...

I guess the trade-deficit is the real problem of the USA. Never forget: if a state has incredible depts, there are people out there, who have the money the state takes as a credit! It's more about social injustice than about a lack of money. All this talking about national dept is more a moral tool in the hands of corporations and leaders to even rob more money from those, who don't have too much. The money is there, more than enough, but it's in the wrong hands.
But when the trade deficit really counts, than the USA will loose about 30% of its' wealth. This is why the Repukes are so obsessed with military power and an atmosphere of fear all around the world. They're afraid, that people will stop to invest in the USA.
Greetings from Germany,
Dirk

[TahitiNut]

12. Not quite..

When there's a trade deficit that means more dollars are going out (to buy imports) than coming in (to buy our exports). Those dollars are used to buy assets (instead of goods and services that would employ Americans) -- equities and bonds in particular. Thus, the national debt is largely held by overseas interests, and it's getting moreso. The debt and the balance of trade go hand in hand.

[matt819]

4. You're one heck of an antidote to good cheer

There should have been a warning -- Do not read this thread unless you've had your medication.

Actually, despite the lack of action on this thread, I often feel this way. You just gotta wonder how we can pull back from the brink that these madmen have brought us to.

At least I like mac and cheese.

[quinnox]

5. I don't know whose thread is more depressing...

This one or Bobd's one about being demoralized. What a contest! Man, oh man. <wink>

[Imajika]

6. Do you actually know...

...anything at all about economics are you just making this stuff up?

"The country owes so much money we will never be able to pay it back."

Wrong. The country could well grow its way out of debt. Clinton had the US on track to do just that.

We have a monstrous debt, but we also have an enormous economy. Compared to many other countries are debt and yearly deficit is not necessarily that bad.

"We will never recover."

What nonsense. Actually, I suspect the US economy is in a better position to recover from the global slowdown than most other nations.

"Fuqin burn those nazibanks anyway."

Huh?

"I hope the rest of the world doesn't find out that we have the strongest economy and shhh the biggest debt."

Well, I am sure you know that the rest of the world, including investors the globe over, know pretty much exactly what our economic situation is. It is really no great secret.

"We are living a pipedream off the backs of thirdworld labor."

So comrade, is this really just a "lets bring down the capitalist system" thread?

"Lets just take it and expect to be eating government cheese soon. It's really not that bad on macaronni."

Okay, whatever you say.

Imajika

[DeathvadeR]

7. ok let me ask you.....

first, count up the number of things in your home. and count 1 for each item that is made for the country it was made in. I suspect about 80% or more comes from China.

Second, take an honest look at the value of these goods on the market. If you need help consult ebay. now subtract the amount of debt you owe from that estimated value of your goods. I suspect that your debt exceeds your total value, especially if you use the long term methode(that is payments realisticaly expanded). Now tell me how much your worth?

Third, Do you think that its fair that a bank charges you 19% interest when your savings accounts or bonds are yielding you 4 to 5 if your lucky? Do you think that it reasonable that these very banks chrage you 3 times the value of your home even at the current 6% rate?

Fourth, are you aware of the huge amount of offshore accounts owned by these very same companies that exclude them from paying any taxes at all? And that your state bribes them to set up shop in their state in exchange for tax breaks?

Fifth, Have you ever tasted goverment cheese?

[Imajika]

8. What are you talking about?

Your post really makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

80% of the stuff in my home doesn't come from China. A quick glance around just my home office where I happen to be sitting reveals that the origin of most of this stuff is so varied that it would take a ridiculous amount of time to list.

And quite frankly, so what?

Second, my net worth is far more than my debt. Considerably more as a matter of fact. And I am not even counting as assets the furnishings and appliances in my house - so no need to consult eBay.

"Third, Do you think that its fair that a bank charges you 19% interest"

Well, first off, I don't have a single bank card that charges that much interest, and I rarely carry credit card debt anyway. The answer to not paying 19% interest is simply not to have credit lines that charge that much - or don't run up debt for any length of time.

Second, I do think that 19% is too much, that is why I wouldnt have cards that charge those kind of rates. But it is no surprise at all that banks charge much higher rates for credit lines than they pay out for savings accounts or time deposits. There is quite abit of risk in unsecured credit, the charge off rate is very significant. You do understand the difference between secured and unsecured credit don't you? Further, credit card fraud costs the banks still more. Ofcourse I believe that lending institutions will, and do, rip people off - but if your a semi-smart consumer you should be able to find a couple good credit cards that have no annual fees and reasonable interest rates.

"Fourth, are you aware of the huge amount of offshore accounts owned by these very same companies that exclude them from paying any taxes at all? And that your state bribes them to set up shop in their state in exchange for tax breaks?"

Yes. And? When Americans get sick enough of that kind of crap they will pressure Congress to pass laws to limit or prevent these offshore shennanigans. I already here increasing talk about doing just that. And quite frankly, it doesn't much bother me that the States offer tax breaks to bring in business. It causes the States to compete against one another, which keeps business tax rates at a reasonable level thus allowing American companies to be more competative in the global economy. I think a little competition amongst the States is actually a good thing. If the people of any State don't like that their representatives are doing that they always have the opportunity to vote them right out of office.

"Fifth, Have you ever tasted goverment cheese?"

I am not sure. Isn't government cheese the same stuff you can buy at the grocery? I doubt that the government has a giant cheese factory somewhere. I think our government just buys cheese from the same companies that sell it on the open market. Who knows, government cheese may well be Velveeta. I do like Velveeta cheese.

Imajika

edited for spelling

[StandWatie]

9. I don't know where they get it

but I remember it from growing up in Reagan years, no way could you sell that stuff.

I can still taste and smell it whenever I see Reagan, that and powdered milk.

[Imajika]

10. Yeah, well..

...the government is probably getting the cheese from the lowest possible bidder. So it would not surprise me if it did suck. But hey, the Reagan years were the 80's - maybe the 2003 cheese is new and improved? Then again, it could well be the same cheese that has been sitting in warehouses for the last decade or so......

Imajika

[DeathvadeR]

15. It doesn't taste anything like velvetta..

I'd gather they make it from some sort of plastic(aka oil), and the the powdered milk....Ewwwwww, Id rather drink radiator fluid.

And well you must be one of the lucky one of us.... and I do love your optimistic attitude. I just don't see that bright of future in the stars. And sure it still looks wonderful around here. thats mostly because we beat the world to the finish line and our system actually understood that in order for it all to work they had to share some of it's prizes.

Remeber a lil o country called Russia? If you think that the same thing couldn't happen here, your dead wrong.
So you can go on living your American dream and not really understand that you're enslaved to a system that breeds hate and inflicts pain on a huge portion of the planet. But maybe its better that you don't know. That is after all, one of their best weapons.

And you'll see what I'm talking about when the nimrods in office start the next couple of wars, the fallout will begin. The next one should be a real woozy.

[Imajika]

18. Okay..

..well, I've had plenty of cheese in the military and it was fine, but having never tried the kind of bulk government cheese your talking about I am willing to believe it is the cheapest, lowest quality stuff available. So perhaps it does indeed suck.

"I just don't see that bright of future in the stars."

Well, I have heard the sky is falling arguments for as long as I can remember. I've heard it from my conservative family in the 70's when the economy was in poor shape, I've heard it from my far left of center friends when Reagan was in office during the 80's - and from some people I am hearing it again now that Bush Jr. is in office.

I just don't believe that the American economy is anywhere near collapse, and I don't in any way believe that either the deficit or the national debt are anywhere near the crisis level that would lead one to think the entire house of cards is about to fall. America has a gigantic economy and our debt and deficit when compared to other nations is not that horrific or surprising.

"Remeber a lil o country called Russia? If you think that the same thing couldn't happen here, your dead wrong."

See, again I don't know what your talking about. Russia tried a command economy for 70 years. Communism doesn't work. Their shift to a market economy is actually beginning to pay dividends. Last I checked the Russian economy was growing at something like a 6%-8% per year rate. That is not bad at all. Russia really can not be compared to the United States. Russia is just now attempting to build a true free market democratic system, it is far from perfect now - but give it another decade and I'd bet things are much better.

"So you can go on living your American dream and not really understand that you're enslaved to a system that breeds hate and inflicts pain on a huge portion of the planet."

Again, it seems that you just don't like America's free market capitalist underpinnings. I would say that the world is more democratic than it has ever been before. I don't see the doom and gloom that you see. I think America has been, overall, remarkably good for the world. And I know your expressing your feelings, but you must understand that the sentiments that you express will never attract majority support in this country. If you are hoping for a candidate whom echo's your views you'd be right in being pessimistic - because no one whom expouses such notions has any chance of winning a national election in this country ever.

"And you'll see what I'm talking about when the nimrods in office start the next couple of wars, the fallout will begin. The next one should be a real woozy."

You could be right on this one. I suspect the Bush administration has its hands so full with Iraq and Afghanistan that they will be reluctant to start anything else soon, but if Bush manages to get a second term - who knows? All the more reason to make sure we elect a Democrat in 04'.

It's been fun debating with you. Thanks for taking the time to respond to my posts! I'll cede you the cheese argument, but I think I'm right on the other points =)

Imajika

[DeathvadeR]

20. lol...good chat..

[Resistance Is Futile]

11. What's the difference between gross and net ignorance?

The country could well grow its way out of debt. Clinton had the US on track to do just that.

It's not possible to grow the economy out of a structural deficit.

Well, I am sure you know that the rest of the world, including investors the globe over, know pretty much exactly what our economic situation is. It is really no great secret.

They know. This is what they're saying about it:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Asian_Economy/EG15Dk01.html

[DeathvadeR]

16. great link you posted....

I couldn't have said it any better. Except even still it excludes the euro issue which will do us in even faster then they estimate.

I seriously don't want to eat the cheese again but ahhh what are you to do????

[Resistance Is Futile]

17. Euro threat?

What are you refering to here?

The current trend in Dollar - Euro valuation is favorable to the Americans rather than vice versa.

[DeathvadeR]

19. 2 factors...

1) Many countries are begining to take notice of the euro and are choosing to use it instead of the almight dollar. Even talking about the change could land you an invasion.

2) Many european countries are actually fed up with the US and are begening to keep it in the family(if you know what I mean) and they are also starting to boycott US goods and so are huge portions of the muslim comnunities(That is if they can shake the addiction, which is harder then crack). I think this was one of the prime objects when Russia met with Germany and France and China awhile back.
I think it was the during some EU talks.

Thats all, I'm no economist. I took a few macro's awhile back and subsribed to the economist for a few years so take it as you will. I't all does'nt feel right. I get this gut feeling that well like your name emplies Resistance is Futile.

[BigMcLargehuge]

13. Sorry, we don't have anymore government cheese

We used to pay down our premium