Slate: Kobe Bryant's trial will showcase our mixed-up rape laws.

[Wonder]

snip
Rape Nuts
Kobe Bryant's trial will showcase our mixed-up rape laws.
By Dahlia Lithwick
Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 4:10 PM PT

Long before the first juror is selected, the nation is making up its mind about Kobe Bryant. Web sites condemning his accuser as a whore are proliferating. (You can even vote on whether Kobe or his alleged victim is lying.) Without a filament of evidence, journalists have split: Some call the young woman his "accuser"; others say "victim." Some complain that he's already been tried and convicted in the media; others complain that she has been raped again in the media.

How can anyone be so certain about what happened between these two adults in the light of a hotel minibar? The answer has little to do with this specific case and everything to do with our national hysteria over rape law—a hysteria that rape accusations are now easier than ever to make and easier than ever to prove, that rape convictions can now be based on the barest assertions, that punishment for rape is harsher than for anything save murder. We have created a system that is bad for everyone. The legal rules for rape have been "reformed" to the point that defendants have few of the usual presumptions of innocence while victims are still humiliated and exposed at trial.

How did this happen?

Throughout most of Western history, penalties for rape have been excessive. Usually, in both Britain and America, the punishment was life imprisonment or death. Feminists have long contended that this toughness wasn't rooted in compassion for the victim but in male property rights. The chastity of a man's wife or daughter was so valuable that its theft was more serious than other kinds of theft. The other paternalistic feature of all rape prosecutions was that the victim was inevitably put on trial herself. Until the 1970s, no woman could prevail at trial unless she showed she'd used "utmost force" (i.e., fought the attacker to near-death) and unless she had a corroborating witness. Moreover, she could not claim her husband had raped her (husbands were immune from rape charges in most states until the late 1970s), and jurors were routinely instructed that women were liars and hysterics. Trials were gruesome explorations of the victim's sexual history, and convictions were rare.

snip
We have reformed, rewritten, and rejiggered rape law, but it is still fundamentally not "fair" in the sense of providing any real legal certainty. In the end—and unless Bryant's accuser has some shocking physical evidence—it is still her word against his. Unless we legislate mandatory threesomes, or start videotaping trysts the way some police departments now videotape criminal interrogations, what happens between two horizontal people in the dark is ultimately unknowable. While it is true that some women lie, and it is also true that some men are sexual monsters, it is not at all true that the hodgepodge that is modern rape law can discern which is which.

more...
http://slate.msn.com/id/2086422/

[Abe Linkman]

1. Had Kobe ever used the services of a commercial woman?

It may or may not be revealing to know whether or not Mr. Bryant is a frequent customer of prostitutes. One wonders why someone in his position would take the risk of having rape charges made against him, or being subject to blackmail - neither of which is as likely, if he pays whenever he has sex outside of his marriage.

This is not to say that there aren't far too many women who lie about being raped.

Further, the punishment may well be way out of line. After all, victims of emotional, psychological and other abuse may well feel just as violated as woman who was raped. And, without in any way meaning to diminish the crime of rape, the truth is, many women have been in sexual situations that come close to the legal definition of rape, yet they didn't file rape charges, and surely a percentage of them don't feel like their lives were ruined or even severely impacted as a result of having a "near rape" experience.

[Iris]

2. "surely a percentage of them don't feel like their lives were ruined"

Why don't you do a focus group and find out?


Just remember - when it comes to anger women implode while men explode, but I wouldn't want to be on the wrong end when a woman finally explodes.

[Abe Linkman]

3. Focus group on what?

n/t

[Iris]

4. on women who "may have been raped" but didn't

report it and haven't had their lives "ruined" by the experience.

You said you were sure they were out there.

[Abe Linkman]

7. not what I said. You should be more careful.

many women have been in sexual situations that come close to the legal definition of rape, yet they didn't file rape charges, and surely a percentage of them don't feel like their lives were ruined or even severely impacted as a result of having a "near rape" experience.

[Wonder]

10. there may be all sorts of reasons

some I guess can suppress in a way it never arise. It probably hinges upon the specifics of the incident itself. Whether or not they received the needed emotional support from loved ones and friends... Actually it probably would be an interesting study... might provide some needed inspiration for those whose quality of life might still be hampered by the experience even if only by a degree.

I know one woman had an experience she passed out in the bathroom because she drank to much and when she came too a guy was on top of her had already penetrated. She says she moved on..

I know another woman in she preaches a good one... how she moved on immediately... but of course she's an alcoholic... so it is hard to gauge the level of denial...

most of the women I have met in passing... while for the most part they engage functionally with life... they all speak of some repercussions and a journey of healing...

I can not say I know anyone who was left completely unscathed... but for those in denial... which isn't to say there aren't any... but I bet there were external factors that contributed to their ability to genuinely move on...

Rape crisis literature and counseling says, besides the violence of the assault... the external support a rape victim receives from those around them, those closest to them correlates to their damage as well...

interesting...

[Wonder]

12. Post #10

is kind of in response to your post as well.

as for anger imploding in... I didn't feel any at all at first fear crippling fear was what I contended with most obviously, apparently my anger had imploded so far in I was not aware of it, though I have come to know it feuled me in way... when delayed post trauma hit...the rage was indescrible...

all at once as if over night i had no tolerance for anyone telling my what I should do or how I should feel instead of how I actually felt ... when the trauma hit... I had to distance myself completely... as I would fly into the most incredible rages.. I had no control of it...

I believe my biggest issue is abandonment. I have yet not found a way to reconcile that... the abandonment keeps me pretty much disconnected... I do not seek people out... not men or women... only in passing ... like I am within a bubble that nobody sees.. but me.

[Eloriel]

9. Yeah, thousands and thousands of rapes every year go UNreported while

just 2% of rape charges are false. AND it's pretty much a given that virtually all rapists are serial rapists.

Let me give you a hint: women don't go crying rape for the fun of it.

Eloriel

[Wonder]

15. You know it becomes almost intolerable to keep hearing about

these women who lie about rape. It seems a device to keep all the attention on Kobes presumed innocence, while we mull over instead all those women who lie about rape.

If kobe is guilty... this quite possibly if not probably is something he has be doing a long time. If guilty I would be surprise if this was just a momentary lapse or an isolated incident..but of course rarely in the Kobe threads are we allowed to ponder the possibility that he may be guilty...

no instead we keep having to ponder these far too many women who lie about rape... it is an interesting device for controlling the debate...

really in all of the kobe threads hardly any discussion regarding is possible guilt if even in hypothetical terms

but for all those women who lie... man... I am so nauseated right now...

why don't you reconcile this lying women thing with you buddies? Perhaps some might like to in hypothetical consider the possibility as why he may be guilty and she may be telling the truth...

my what a novel idea!

[alaine]

26. AIDS virus means rape=potential murder.

Maybe the punishment should be the same as attempted
murder.

Punishments are supposed to act as a potential deterrent to a crime. Seeing as how we have something like 1 rape every six minutes, or 240 a day in this country, I would think that the punishment is obviously not severe enough. Those are just the reported rapes.

Odd how rape is the only crime in which the victim is put on trial.

Why in God's name would Kobe Bryant ever have to pay for sex when women throw themselves at professional athletes to beat the band.

Sexual situations that come close to the legal definition of rape but aren't are called sexual assault or just assault. I once read in a self-defense book a police officer advising women who had been victims of home-invasion stranger rapes to rifle through their valuables and make it look like a robbery had occurred on the premise that it would be more believable.

Our culture is haunted by the spectre of the Judeo-Christian Eve and her lie in the bible, this more than anything else casts doubt on women's veracity, which is why I'll be glad to see it dead and buried, and the sooner the better.

I bet for every woman who MAY have "lied" about being raped there are at least a thousand whose rapes went unreported and unpunished.

[Wonder]

34. and then there are those Jungian constructs

the age ole mother whore and cleopatra complex.

[lolly]

5. Thanks for Posting

I hope everybody who has participated in the lengthy Kobe threads of the last few weeks reads this entire article.

The comments afterwards were interesting as well. The suggestion that "Date Rape" could and should be a separate charge from "Stranger Attack Rape" made some good points about the problems of prosecuting Date Rape.

An excerpt:

this type of assault and stranger-in-the-bushes rape are so different from each other in legal and social nuance that it is inappropriate for the legal system to treat them as indistinguishable, either in method of proof or in consequence after conviction. They present, at a minimum, entirely different legal issues. I think they present different social issues too. The question of fact in stranger-in-the-bushes rape is rarely whether or not a rape occurred, as physical evidence sufficient to remove doubt about this usually exists. Almost always, the issue is solely the identity of the rapist. In date rape, the reverse is true. It's almost never in dispute that the accuser and the accused were together consensually. And because of the existence of physical evidence of sexual intercourse, and these days because of DNA identification, rarely is it disputed that sexual intercourse occurred. The issue is entirely whether the intercourse was consensual, and resolution of that issue turns wholly on three facts that cannot be proved scientifically: the state of mind of the accuser, the accused's perception of that, and the reasonableness of that perception. . . .

Food for thought.

[Wonder]

8. Those with the ability to be objective will

I thought the subject required a digestivo and perhaps an aparitif for the next Kobe thread we may all be subjected to.

That last one in LBN was a whopper.

[joshcryer]

6. Rape doesn't exist! It's in everyones silly heads.

Duh! :eyes:

::sigh::

[lolly]

11. Did you read the articles?

How do you propose we should prove guilt in date rape cases?

It DOESN'T say it's all in our silly little heads.

It says there are very real problems involved in legally proving it--and unless you believe that we should dispense with trials in any case of accused rape, we have to grapple with those problems.

The suggestion in one of the article's reply threads tossed in the possiblity that acquaintance rape could/should be treated, charged, prosecuted differently from stranger rape, since the evidence needed differs. Is it taboo to even discuss this? Does discussing this mean that we're saying rape is imaginary?

[Wonder]

13. lolly

judging from his comments in another thread I believe he is being sarcastic.

[lolly]

16. Sorry then!

Don't know that much about the other threads--I gave up on most of them.

I'll think first, then type next time!

[Wonder]

19. yes I know what you mean

without having encountered him before I understand why you would be at odds with his post. It happens. Don't worry about it. I have done the same thing a handful of times since tackling the ..... collision course these kobe threads tend to be.

[joshcryer]

28. I'm so sorry. It's a good article.

I thought the rolleyes were basically the 'way' to indicate scarasm. :)

I've been having a tough time in these rape threads. Hard not to get involved again.

It brings up a lot of good issues. Issues I and Wonder brought up in the other thread(s), too.

[RowWellandLive]

14. There should be different degrees of Rape

under the law, like there are for other crimes such as Burglary. Consider these three scenarios:

1) Stranger Rape - A guy abducts a woman in an alley or climbs through her window, etc.

2) A woman voluntarily is alone with a man and either consents to foreplay, mere kissing, or nothing at all and intercourse is forced upon her after she says no.

3) A woman consents to intercourse and changes her mind before the act is completed.

Under current law all are rape and carry the same punishment. I can see an argument being made that #2 should carry the same penalties as #1. However, although #3 should be punishable as a crime, it clearly is not the same degree as the others. By punishing #3 the same I think we are diminishing the clear distinction between that and #2. Juries are hesitant to sentence a man to 20 years or life for scenario #3. It is clearly still a crime but should have a lesser penalty.

BTW, it is my opinion that the Kobe situation is probably #2 but who can really know yet. All the jury has to do is believe that at worst it falls into #3 and they probably won't convict because of the harsh penalty and no nuances in the law. Heck, there are even degrees of murder.

[Wonder]

17. there are and there are different classification or rapist MO's or

profiles... the DA culls that from the torment inflected upon the victim... they can surmise if he is what they call a career rapist and depending on the degree and elements of violence used to maintain control and power... they can also get a handle on where he is in is progress as he moves perhaps from date rape to power rape to seriel rape to killing his victim...

I am not sure they do all carry the same punishment... but count dependent but there many have been changes since than...

the punishment would depend on how the DA profiles the rapist and how much danger he might pose to society.

but it is worth looking at the laws if you are truely interested...

[alaine]

30. Bless you for posting this thread.

It took courage. I did not go on the other ones because I could not bear to hear all the whining about "lying" women that I knew would be there. It's especially hard to take on a site that calls itself progressive.

I'm scarred internally. I have only a vague memory of what may have happened because I was a child. Without a doubt rape and sexual abuse of children is the most underreported crime in this country. Sadly enough, I have never told another woman my story without her having a story of her own to tell me. After a while I quit talking about it because the the staggering epidemic that sexual assault and rape are is hard enough to take without hearing personal statistics every day. I have a friend (who as an adult is tiny, under 95# and less than five feet tall) who was raped as a 5 year old and had to have surgery to repair damage to her kidneys. These are the gruesome details, and when one has lived through them the apathy of men whose only concern is that a small fraction of men may be falsely accused is like a kick in the gut.

[Wonder]

37. Why not a little speculation going why perhaps she's telling the truth?

fuck! we put up with why she must be lying. I am sure there are 2 or 3 people that might also have considered she might be telling the truth.

And what about the screwed up media process... and the legal process...
and we know all this dirty on the alleged lying women... what has come up on Kobe? Nothing.

really must we only consider the possibility she's lying? where is that at? Not that I'm taking bets. I don't know, you know what I mean?

And thankyou for saying these Kobe threads have been nauseating for the most part...

and alaine... tell you friends to take a looksee. enough with this lying women crap... okay she could be lying we got that... anyone have some thoughts on perhaps why she could be telling the truth?

I haven't really been following the case, but for the articles placed in DU which have most all of them slanted against the alleged rape victim.

[dsc]

38. stuff has come out about Kobe

On Maher's show and on Larry King Live Maher has said that Kobe hit on other women (as in asked out not beat) during the same hotel stay. He also said that people knew Kobe was sleeping around. I have to say that it is looking worse for him as time goes on here. The coverage I have heard on NPR and on Maher's show has not looked good for him. The threads here have been largely speculation and not news stories. Time will tell what happens but it looks more and more like he is in serious legal trouble and for good reason.

[Wonder]

39. Kobe Bryant loses bid to skip court date

Can you imagine felony rape charges and he asks if he can miss his first appearance. What was he thinking?

Here it is I just pulled it:

snip

EAGLE, Colo. - A bid by Kobe Bryant to skip his first court appearance next week on a sexual assault charge was rejected Thursday (early Friday) by a judge.

The decision came the same day attorneys for several media organizations asked the judge to unseal court records, saying the Los Angeles Lakers' star waived his right to privacy when he declared his innocence at a news conference.

Judge Fred Gannett said he wouldn't rule on the records issue before Bryant's court appearance Wednesday.

After the hearing, Gannett said it was important for Bryant to be in court Wednesday. "It's vital for him. It's vital for us. It's where the process begins," the judge told KMGH-TV in Denver.

In their filing, defense attorneys had said Bryant's absence would reduce "the impact on the courthouse and the need for security." The defense suggested Bryant intends to seek a preliminary hearing to determine whether he should stand trial.

snip

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/abs_news_body.asp?section=Sports&oid=29659

Oh yes let's protect him even further. Let him take a walk on the actual trial. We'll just try the alleged victim.

[lolly]

18. There's a Start

Maybe we should also consider the rehabilitation possibilities here.

My guess--few, if any, violent stranger rapists are capable of rehabilitation.

A serial date rapist--probably also pretty hopeless?

Someone who crosses the line or won't stop because he thinks it's his "right" once things have gotten started might benefit (and society might benefit) if he received the sort of counseling/education that would be wasted on the Type I rapist.

[Wonder]

20. that rehabiitation of

"Someone who crosses the line or won't stop because he thinks it's his "right" once things have gotten started might benefit (and society might benefit) if he received the sort of counseling/education that would be wasted on the Type I rapist"

would be dependent upon his ability to get to the root of his anger...

by the time they get to serial probably they should just ... well...

maybe drop them on bikini island make it a rape penal colony and let them sodomize each other. have the feds drop rations from the air on...

here is the issue though if you can't enforce the date rape laws... chances are some of them can progress to serial...

but we'd rather get those lying women so... good luck.

[waggawagga]

21. Hmmm

I don't agree with the author of this article for the most part. Rape laws will always be problematic because guilt and innocence ultimately turns on consent, ie. state of mind. If it can be proved that this woman refused consent than Bryant is guilty (no matter who she was or what she did before and after).

On the other hand this has to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. A rape charge can't be based upon some retroactive withdrawl of consent. The real male nightmare, I think, is not that a woman will invent an incident but that she'll consent to sex, change her mind later, and base a charge on this.

We don't know what both sides are alleging happened during this 30 minutes. My prediction of what will happen, though, is that Bryant will be acquitted on grounds of reasonable doubt.

[Wonder]

22. Yes this concern has been duly noted

and will remain indelibly imprinted upon my mind.

[alaine]

29. Nightmare...

by definition is a dream not a real event. When people cast unfounded fears onto actual people or events it is called projection, and thats exactly what is happening here.

I agree with the poster who said that they wished neither of the names would have been released. Me too, blissul ignorance: if only.

I have a quick and easy solution. Men, simply stop raping women. Non-rapist men, take it upon yourselves to incarcerate, rehabilitate or execute all men who can be proven to have raped women or children, or other men. Get them off the streets, and if you prefer, off the planet, forever. Why is this a solution? Because then we will know that all women who say they are have been raped are lying, since men took the responsibility, as the main perpetrators of this crime, to eliminate it. No more rape. Problem solved.

Until then, we're in the quagmire.

[dsc]

23. When gender crosses with race

a mess always ensues. I think any rational person has to understand why African Americans would have a legitimate problem with a famous African American athlete, with until now a sterling reputation, facing trial by an all white jury (Vail is very unlikely to produce a minority juror) with a white complaining witness. On the other side, I think any rational person would have to understand why arguments about Kobe's presumed innocence which all too often degenerate into attacks on the accuser would outrage women. This is no easy thing to deal with. I kind of wish that both people were kept anonymous and we could be blissfully ignorant.

The article makes some very valid points. The perception exists that the field is more tilted against defendents in rape trials than any other trial. Most of that is probably perception. But in this case one thing which would help immensly is a change of venue to Denver. Give Kobe and the accuser a jury of their peers.

[Wonder]

24. but here is the problem there

or it could be... if the race card is played by his dream team would a jury of his peers be more likely to render a verdict based on the facts or on race?

[Wonder]

25. and what classifies his peers?

when besides race what we have is class distinction as well. And since the alleged victim is also on trial, what about a jury of her peers?

I know by the books the plaitiff is generaly not on trial... but off the books in the case of rape the alleged victim is to a degree placed more so on trial (whether all want to accept that or not) because it seems in the matter of rape the most common persumption is that the alleged victim is guilty of false accusation, while the alleged rapist is persumed innocent...by due process of law...

many interesting twists here.

[dsc]

27. I said both of them should

have a jury of their peers. Both, as in both. I certainly am not advocating an entirely African American jury but certainly you can see why there should be some on that jury. As to your first post, I do think race often trumps class. After all even Oprah has had stores in Beverly Hills refuse to open for her until they figured out who she was. Presumedly she looks rich most of the time no matter if someone knows who she is or not.

[Adjoran]

31. Since when is race the only measure

of a jury "of your peers?"

Economically, Bryant is a lot closer in income and lifestyle to the residents of Eagle County than he would be to downtown L.A. It's only his race that is in question, and they should be able to find 12 people in Colorado who aren't going to prejudge the case because of that.

In no other crime is the victim subjected to such scrutiny. We don't look askance at robbery victims. We don't say, well, you were flashing that roll, you were asking for it! We don't ask burglary victims why they didn't buy an alarm system and a pit bull.

The "lying victim scenario" - as someone pointed out, less than 2% of REPORTED cases - almost exclusively occurs in cases where the people were previously involved with each other. In this case, the victim reportedly still bears evidence of the violence done upon her. The DA held off for several days before filing the charges, even though the sheriff had already arrested Bryant. It is extremely difficult to imagine that this case involves anything other than a brutal, forcible rape.

[dsc]

32. race is an issue

and it is foolish to pretend otherwise. Kobe is rich and I am sure grew up fairly well off as well (his dad played pro basketball as well). But I don't care how much money he had growing up he was still African American and had all that comes with that. If Oprah can be shut out of stores (this was in the 90's) then so can any African American. If this case has merit then try it with a jury which isn't lillie white. Or do you think only whites can look at evidence fairly?

On edit If the races here were reversed but the jury was still likely to be all white would you think my argument was still wrong? Or would you all of the sudden see its merit? I would not like to be tried by an all stright jury if I were a famous gay or charged with a crime that has been used against gays in the past I fail to see why I should advocate that Kobe be tried by an all white jury for a crime that historically has be used against African Americans.

[Wonder]

35. the OJ juror again comes to mind here in terms of class

how many rich CEO's sat in his jury box? Juries are most generally culled from the working class and the senior citizen pool, for the most part.

[Wonder]

33. race is certainly more inciteful than class

the race card is very bad news in terms of fairness, and in my opinion with a white alleged victim, black woman can pose a problem more so than black males. There is that territorial and understandable anger that can play a role here and one person can hang that jury based on nothing that was present at trial only based on which race buttons the defense team chooses to press.

Do you recall Cochran in his black shirt and black tie with his my brothahs... man. What a performance after the rodney king fiasco too!

This is a joke going in... They can have photos of bruises all over that alleged victim, by the time she this goes to jury trial they will be healed that is if she is telling the truth, which generally we are chided for even considering.

If this DA really has a case he has to be as slick as a hucksler.

And what venue would you suggest. They haven't been following the media madness in Denver? The pin ball machine is so tilted at this early stage you can kiss real justice good bye. That is my guess...

Unless they DA plays the primal urge card, which call also be trumped by race in this case.

Of course when you consider how many black men were railroad by southern justice on trumped up rape charges, and to kill a mockingbird comes to mind... well if I can fathom those chords being struck... think about a couple of black women on that jury.

nuff said.

[dsc]

36. so what you are saying is

that because Kobe and his lawyers may be able to use race he should have a lillie white jury. Can't race be used the other way too? There is a reason whites used false rape charges against blacks in the South. I don't pretend denizens of Denver are any less likely to have been exposed to pretrial publicity but Mars isn't an option. Any jury is going to have that problem.

I agree with you on black women. I knew Thomas would be confirmed after watching his testimony in a room full of black women. They universally were on his side. But I do think that they are every bit as likely to be able to deliver a just verdict as anyone else is. They need to be chosen properly. If the DA can't convince a racially mixed jury in this case then there is a huge problem. A verdict by an all white jury won't be accepted in many quarters of America and I don't see why it should be.

[Wonder]

40. no I don't think in polarities like that

of course I am not saying bar black women or men from the jury... but based on the OJ trial it can be problematic... in my mind the media sets the psychies up with a parallel to furhman here.

Certainly they are every bit as likely to render a fair verdict, I wasn't suggesting otherwise. I was just listing a number of the issues that come up in terms of jury... the jury pool has been significantly perjuded here without considering the racial over and undertones...

The judge slapped a gag order on the media... Kobe has to be taken off this pedastal not necessarily to smear him but to put him on the ground as just any other person like you or I rather than only this heroic and messmerizing sports idol. These charges are serious charges, so disregarded as applicable here.

We don't know how this will play. I guess I am still reeling from all the bullshit in all previous "look at the fucked up alleged accuser threads". YOu can not even know some of the PM's I have received from posters that do not speak out on the threads at all... all the other false accusers in the background... and how much of a trigger a high profile rape trial can be WITHOUT all this sexist lying rape accuser crap.

people have no idea the cruelty that some have taken part in here in these bullshit discussions on kobes persumed innocence and the accusers persumed guilt. Some people should be ashamed of themselves really.

the utter sexist bullshit that was allowed to take place here. And that is all I am going to say on the subject. Posters here are among a significant number of women who have been physically mamed for life because of this crime... I mean like they can't walk anymore.

Enough with the male anger so blinded by ignorance requiring so much undivided attention. In case all hadn't notice the whole world has justifiable anger. Reign it in or if you must disrespect and trash women to that degree open up a trash women thread in the lounge where those that must can talk among themselves.

nauseating it was. Men were hardly trashed like women in those threads.

[dsc]

43. I agree

and posted a thread asking why the accuser was allowed to be trashed the way she was (it got locked in half an hour so I can understand why you didn't see it). As I said above what coverage I have heard has suggested to me that Kobe is deservedly in serious legal jeopardy.

That said, I think any African American defendent should have some African Americans on his or her jury. Vail will have the effect of banning them. Vail is nearly all white and thus even a very large jury pool is likely to have only one or two African Americans in it. Those can be eliminated for cause or premeptory if necessary.

The jury system needs trust to work. Significant numbers of African Americans will not trust a conviction rendered by an all white jury. We won't have access to the evidence the jury will. We won't have access to the testimony and demeanor like they will. The jury will be our proxy. I doubt women would trust an aquittal in this case rendered by a jury of all African American men (I sure wouldn't) so why should African Americans be told to trust a conviction by an all white jury? It is more important for the guilty to have a fair trial than the innocent. This verdict needs to be accepted by everyone for both the accuser and society to move on. As you rightly point out Kobe will be on a different class level than a Denver jury would be. This isn't designed to tilt in his favor. It is designed to get a jury that will be accepted as society's proxy.

[Wonder]

44. I have no problem with Afro Americans in the jury box

nor a change in venue. From my own experience. I feel kobe will be acquitted which will have little bearing on his innocence or guilt. Unless something none of know comes out at trial to clinch it beyond a reasonable doubt.

I keep hearing about the strong evidence. At present, knowing that in the real world jurors have acquitted even in the face of strong evidence; the DA's evidence may prove meaningless after the fact wherein the alleged victims bruises have disappeared. And then of course there will be those who will insist they were self inflicted.

And if the media does not stop trying this case in the media, with or without a jury of his racial peers, at this point it looks like it will be an acquital. What that will have to do with anything. We may never know. The trial, not the media, the evidence not the smears all of which may be barred from trial, is the lytmus test.

And yes of course afro americans should not be barred from the jury. I agree with your thoughts on how bad a white jury would sit in the minds of Black America. Black america comes to the judicial system with their own very separate history than white america. Their suspicions regarding southern justice, justice (or as I have heard blacks refer to it JUST-US meaning white folk) are well founded. Racist cops should be thrown out of the force with no pension. I have no idea how this new relelation with this racial profiling thing will bode.

[Wonder]

41. please understand dsc

it is a rant I can not contain it any longer, it is not directed at anyone person or your post. Please do not misunderstand. It was a mini rant most relevant and spoken on behalf of those women here that have been hurt. YOu don't understand. They have been hurt by those thread. Those that never said a word that no one knows about with all the big spot lights on the lying women.

ENOUGH we got it we don't need to beat it to death. It is not the whole picture here by a long shot.

To tears the story I was PM'd by a DU participant today. People refuse to understand.

[noiretextatique]

42. good points, dsc

and let just add: this black woman was most definitely NOT on thomas' side :D
some people i know assumed thomas and hill had a relationship that went sour. i looked at her...i looked at him, then i dismissed that notion. she had WAY too much class for that guy. i also noticed that, like hill, his other accuser was another attractive black woman. the guy was guilty as sin, imho.