Aristide kidnapped by U.S.?

[spanone]

There are reports coming out of Haiti that Aristide was seen leaving the palace in handcuffs. http://www.kpftx.org/

[Character Assassin]

1. Puh-leeze.

That is all.

[slinkerwink]

2. look at the threads down below---there's eyewitness evidence!

[brainshrub]

3. I am listening to Democracy Now!

They are confirming it. We are witnessing another Venezuelan-like coup.

[morgan2]

5. this is a lot more than venezuela

we actually have taken Aristede ourselves, not by funding his opposition.

[Yupster]

22. Reminds me of the Philippines

Marcos said he was told he was being taken to his home province or something like that. Next thing he was told the plane was heading for Hawaii.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[jonnyblitz]

8. when i listen to congress people and reporters and wintesses

discuss this as opposed to somebody on DU who just doesnt think it sounds right..well...just keep waving that flag and singing Toby Keith songs...

[Name removed]

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[ithacan]

15. Panama 1989

This is exactly what the US did do in Panama. It arrested Noriega, head of state of Panama, and kidnapped him. Noriega was not a nice guy by any means, but the US has done this kind of thing before.

ANyone who would doubt this is incredibly naive and knows little about US foreign policy in that region.

[Character Assassin]

18. Anyone who shoots off at the mouth with no evidence deserves what he gets

Or, as the case may be, she gets.

This is exactly what the US did do in Panama. It arrested Noriega, head of state of Panama, and kidnapped him. Noriega was not a nice guy by any means, but the US has done this kind of thing before

No, it's not.

So, tell me, where us the former Haitan president in custody? How do you know this? What are the charges?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

[spanone]

21. talk about shooting off at the mouth.....

[Name removed]

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[spanone]

24. I made no charges sport, just reporting what is being reported

your name says it all.

[Name removed]

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[Tinoire]

63. Just for you

[Character Assassin]

83. Thanks for boring me.

And not even in a creative way.

There is no democratic process except for what transpires in the human heart.

[not systems]

26. His plane just touched down in Antigua says...

Democracy Now.

[Character Assassin]

27. Golly, that proves he was kidnapped by the Bush Administration.

All sheep to the front, please.

[not systems]

38. Who's white learjet do you think took him? NPR said US jet.

What news source supports your story that nothing has happened?

Or are you just activated by some sort of defense of denial club?

So the US played no role?

What do you think happened and why?

[Character Assassin]

40. I make no claim, one way or another. I don't attempt to foolishly guess

at things with no evidence to back them up.

No denial, no support.

Please try to think this through.

[not systems]

44. Ok. What news sources are you using...

and what type of evidence would you expect to see?

Do you think a UN inquiry should be started now?

I'm listening to my congress woman on the radio and she
says an investigation into covert actions must start now.

What do you think?

Why?

[Character Assassin]

49. This isn't rocket science.

I expect to see any type of evidence that isn't immediately filed under "purest speculation" which is what everything I've seen here amounts to.

I think that any UN inquiry would be about as effective and valid as a hall monitor tryingt to take in Charlie Manson. As in a total waste of time.

I think there is no basis yet for drawing any conclusions.

This is based on experience, not wishfull, bullshit hyperbole.

[not systems]

55. Some things do turn out to be false...

when the fog of preemptive war sets in.

I have seen a pattern of information in this case that makes it very
unlikely that a direct hand was not had by the junta.

I agree about the Manson comment.

Take care.

[Character Assassin]

57. Copy that.

Think for yourself.

I'm pleased to see that you have no problem with that.

I am less inclined to believe that for others.

[shanti]

80. i hope you will

have the decency to apologize to everyone here when you are proven WRONG.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

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[Ms. Clio]

87. so have you apologized yet for shilling for the Iraq war?

If so, I must have missed it.

Yeah, adults always call other adults snarky names like "sport" and "professor."

[shanti]

78. the bullshite that this admin has been involved in

is growing deeper by the minute. they need to be impeached!!

[never cry wolf]

60. It's also being reported in France

Aristide taken out at gunpoint by US Marines. I saw that somewhere in one of these many threads.

[I AM SPARTACUS]

72. Ken Lay's jet that Smirko uses to jet around to fund-raisers...???

...no, I don't have evidence; yes, I'm shooting from the hip and being a bit cynical-not-witty; and yes, considering what the Smirko Gang has pulled, it is in the realm of possibility...

[wuushew]

19. Yes but Panama followed an act of Congress

If Bush unilaterially kidnapped Aristide, then impeachment is one step closer to reality.

[shanti]

77. this is their MO

and will continue to be so. take out the democratically elected leader and install the puppet. it happens time and again.

[jonnyblitz]

17. Congressional Black Caucus members are suckers?

plus Amy Goodman and various witnesses/ reporters? I am just supposed to not believe because you don't think it sounds right?

[Character Assassin]

20. You can believe whatever you'd like.

Short of any real proof, I'll stick to neutrality, thanks.

[jonnyblitz]

30. neutral? ha

Seriously though what would you consider valid proof? just curious. who would be able to convince you that this is true?

[Name removed]

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[jonnyblitz]

36. if witnesses arent proof or evidence

what is? all we have to rely on is what others tell us they have seen. I think you have made up your mind without proof and it is useless to discuss this with you.

[Character Assassin]

42. The entire point here is that there isn't enough evidence here....

to come to any firm conclusion.

Except for suckers.

There is plenty here for them to be satisfied.

[htuttle]

37. In your face!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3520457.stm

(snip)
Alone, he negotiated with senior US officials until the early hours of this morning, insisting that he should remain until the end of his elected term in 2006.

Just hours before, he had gone on local television to say that his resignation was "out of the question".

But, the pressure from the international community was too much, and he was escorted to the main airport by US Marines at dawn.

According to one source, he resisted even while going up the stairs to the aircraft alongside his wife and some 40 aides.
(more)

[Name removed]

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[jonnyblitz]

54. your efforts are futile.

give up. not worth it. :crazy: :hi:

[Name removed]

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[rudeboy666]

9. my2c

As I see it, things are too chaotic at the moment to make any definitive assertions of fact.

Maybe what Democracy Now is accurate. However, we have to take what they say with a grain of salt. Being alternative is no guarantee of accuracy.

I'm pretty sure that the real story will come out eventually.

[Character Assassin]

11. This is the correct answer. Thank you.

[spanone]

7. listen for yourself...

[Renew Deal]

28. This isn't just theories. This is coming from Rangel and Waters.

These are congress people.

[Name removed]

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[jonnyblitz]

32. wow.

that post explains lots about trying to figure out where you are coming from. thanks.

[spanone]

34. Leave it alone, maybe it will go away.

[Name removed]

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[jonnyblitz]

39. I know.

I have a bad habit of picking at scabs.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

67. I guess you prefer Delay and Santorum?

:shrug:

[G_j]

86. well you totally lost me

with that "character assassination"

[ithacan]

45. but Bleachers, Bush would NEVER do anything like this!!

How could you even think that he might? Aristide was a democratically elected head of state.

This administration has enormous respect for democracy. I cannot believe people here would believe that the Bush administration would do something so despicable as to arrest and remove from his country a democratically elected president...

[mlawson]

12. Sounds like the old days.

Guatemala, Iran, 1953
Dominican Republic, 1965
Chile, 1973

Hmm, which have I forgotten? There are several more.

[wuushew]

13. Won't Aristide be able to clear the matter up himself?

Apparently he is on a plane for parts unknown. Central America, South Africa, Morocco. All we know is the United States is ignorant of him coming here. That being said it would be quite a stetch of the imagination to think of an adequate cover story of why he will be assainated before talking to the world press.

[nolabels]

14. Who gave the order?

Kidnapping is a crime

http://www.onlinelawyersource.com/criminal_law/federal_crime.html
Federal Crime

Federal crime is a violation of the laws passed by the US Congress. Trials of federal crimes are very different from state crimes: federal rules of evidence differ, and sentencing for federal crimes is governed by rules so complex that state attorneys are often unable to navigate them. Federal crimes are tried in federal courts, by a separate set of judges from state courts.

Federal crimes are committed in one of several ways. First, federal crimes can indicate violation of federal law, rather than (or in addition to) state law. Federal crime also covers all commission of crime taking place on military installations and federal government buildings. Federal crimes sometimes involve criminal activity that crosses state borders, such as kidnapping or trafficking. Trials for federal crimes are increasing as more and more laws become federalized.

If you are accused of a federal crime, it is important to retain an attorney who understands the procedures and processes of federal crime trials. There are significant differences in the way trials are conducted for state and federal crimes: state trials require prosecutors to share information with the defense team well before trial, federal crimes trials allow prosecutors to withhold information until after witnesses have testified; sentencing for federal crimes is done by a judge, using strict sentencing guidelines, rather than by a jury. Federal crime attorneys familiar with these differences can get a fair trial for clients accused of federal crimes, while attorney who do not specialize in federal crime law may miss important opportunities before and during the trial. Consult a federal crime attorney if you have questions about how to proceed with your case.
(snip)

I am looking up the Neutrality Act next

[shanti]

82. since when has being a "crime"

stopped these thugs?

[Tinoire]

16. With the US ambassador on the scene! Ambass. Foley went to the

palace at 4AM. At 5:30 AM Aristide was led out in hand-cuffs.

[nolabels]

29. Okay, back to that other point

http://conf.diplomacy.edu/conf/NEUTRALI/schindle.htm
THE CONCEPTS OF NEUTRALITY AND NON-ALIGNMENT
(snip)
However, it should be emphasized, that the law of neutrality may be applied in all armed conflicts even if no state of war has been recognized. States which since 1945 have referred to the law of neutrality have generally done so without regard to a possible state of war. The permanently neutral States in particular have considered the law of neutrality to be applicable to all international armed conflicts. The right to apply the law of neutrality in all international armed conflicts finds its confirmation in the Geneva Conventions of 1949. It is stated in their common Article 2 that they apply "to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them". At the same time the Conventions confer several tasks upon neutral powers, thereby presupposing that there are neutrals even though no state of war is recognized.

It may seem that the state of war has lost any relevance to the law of neutrality. Yet, in one respect there remain some doubts. According to a widely held opinion, belligerents in maritime warfare may exercise rights over neutral merchant ships and cargoes, especially the rights of visit, search and seizure of contraband, only if the state of war if recognized. This opinion was corroborated by governments and authors in the Arab-Israeli conflict and in the Indo-Pakistani War. It played no role, however, in the Iran-Iraq War even though belligerent rights against third States were extensively exercised in this conflict. One could possible argue that belligerents who exercise rights over neutral shipping in maritime warfare thereby implicitly assume the existence of a state war. In fact in none of the armed conflicts in which a state of war was alleged to exist did the parties to the conflict ever issue declarations of war. If, in this way, the exercise of belligerent rights against third States is considered as an implicit recognition of a state of war and if it is assumed that the exercise of belligerent rights is the only legal consequence of a state of war, the invocation of the state of war has become futile. (24) The Iran-Iraq conflict where belligerent rights were invoked without any formal recognition of war may be taken as a sign of this futility. In the enforcement action against Iraq the Security Council by Resolution 665 of 25 August 1990, ordered States deploying maritime forces in the Gulf to halt and inspect ships in order to enforce the economic sanctions against Iraq which had been decided upon by Resolution 661 of 6 August 1990. It was widely assumed that this "blockade", similar to classical blockades, created a state of armed conflict or war between the blockading States and Iraq; no distinction was thereby made between armed conflict and war.
(snip)

[Zan_of_Texas]

43. Radio streaming www.kpft.org Dennis Bernstein

Cong. Barbara Lee: was talking regularly to President and Mrs. Aristide. As were other congresspeople, as was the president's legal counsel. Each one agrees, "They were adamant, they would not leave voluntarily."

Lee: "I've called the State Dept. several times today." Getting nothing from them.

None have heard from Aristide since the incident Saturday early in the morning.

Aristide felt it was his duty to continue to serve as elected president.

[Zan_of_Texas]

48. more from Congressmember Barbara Lee:

She says this is part of the administration's policy of regime change -- when a government doesn't agree with US gov't, we take them out!

Says she has tried very hard to get humanitarian funds released.

"It's wrong. It's immoral. It's illegal. And we're going to have to deal with this administration on it."

She added a few minutes later, "I think this is a Cheney/Rice operation."

[Robbien]

46. It appears that Bush&Co sent his disrupters to this thread

First Bush&Co tried to distract us with the proposed change to the constitution for marriage. Then the Jesus gore film.

And while we are distracted, he pulls a coup. But since some of us didn't get distracted, he is sending his distractors to online forums to say the Haiti coup is all a hoax.

[ithacan]

47. really, after Iraq

where the Bushies lied through their teeth to get a major invasion, I don't understand how anyone could doubt that the Bushies would be behind something like this...

[not systems]

51. Be resonable...

it could just be deep denial or ignorance.

Some suckers will disbelieve their own to ears.

:crazy:

[Character Assassin]

52. Other suckers are spoon-fed, and happy to be so.

They're the boring ones.

[jonnyblitz]

53. not just this thread...n/t

[Tinoire]

50. US troops 'made Aristide leave'

US troops 'made Aristide leave'

From correspondents in Paris

March 1, 2004

HAITIAN leader Jean Bertrand Aristide was taken away from his home by US soldiers, it was claimed today.

A man who said he was a caretaker for the now exiled president told France's RTL radio station the troops forced Aristide out.

"The American army came to take him away at two in the morning," the man said.

"The Americans forced him out with weapons.

"It was American soldiers. They came with a helicopter and they took the security guards.


"(Aristide) was not happy. He did not want to be taken away. He did not want to leave. He was not able to fight against the Americans."

<snip>


http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=1274&storyid=973655

[Fozzledick]

58. Confirmation from the BBC

Just hours before, he had gone on local television to say that his resignation was "out of the question".

But, the pressure from the international community was too much, and he was escorted to the main airport by US Marines at dawn.

According to one source, he resisted even while going up the stairs to the aircraft alongside his wife and some 40 aides.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3520457.stm

[spanone]

70. Doesn't sound like he's "stepping down"

[Tinoire]

59. Self-deleted. Not worth it. Ignore list works better. n/t

[ithacan]

61. you are right

:hi:

[Tinoire]

62. Hi my friend!

:hi: Thanks for all your support. DU is wonderful (well a few exceptions ;) but they can be zapped)

[spanone]

64. Sorry for the disruptor.

[Tinoire]

69. There's always a clown. Always a wise-ass. Just like in grade school

you would think though... you would just think...

[jonnyblitz]

84. yeah.. i am sorry, too

for not just ignoring that dumbass....

[jonnyblitz]

65. I am too nosey...

to put people on ignore. :shrug:

[KG]

66. heh

yo, bro :hi:

[jonnyblitz]

79. KG

i expect to see you in NYC for the big GOP bash...:hi:

[KG]

81. i'm planning on being there.

woohoo, let's paint the town beige and raise some heck! :)

[Tinoire]

68. Me too. Never lasts more than 10 minutes sadly! n/t

[KG]

71. yo, girlfriend!

:hi:

[Tinoire]

74. Hey hey

:hi: Thanks for your warm PM

[spanone]

73. How long till Faux & CNN report this???

This is appearing on the BBC website. How long will it take the mainstream media in U.S. to report? Charles Rangel & Maxine Waters sounded really pissed. This should be interesting.

[Robbien]

75. It is hard to believe that we cannot get continuous coverage

of this bloodletting. When DemocracyNow's broadcast was over, I felt bereft. And there is no place to go to hear more.

[spanone]

76. Where is the "imbedded" Press Corps?