Spare the rod and spoil the child

[Bucky]

OK, one more time. The Bible does not, repeat, not say "spare the rod and spoil the child." In Proverbs 13:24 it says (and amazingly lots of people who butcher this quote can't even tell you what book it comes out of) "He who spares (or 'spareth' for you KJV fans) the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him." In the KJV they'll throw in a "betimes" at the end of that quote.

Elsewhere in Proverbs it says, "The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother." (29:15) But let's understand what "rod" means. When we say the word rod we think about a short iron pipe, which would make for a prettly harsh instrument to beat on somebody with. But when the Bible says rod, it's referring to a shepherd's rod--as in "His rod and his staff, they comfort me."

That kind of rod isn't used for pummelling a wayward sheep. It's a long stick used to nudge sheep out of harm's way and into safer pastures. It's a tool of guiding, not punishment.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

2. Ahhh, I would have LOVED to see this message

I am a firm believer that idiocy is best countered by being kept out in the open for all to see. :evilgrin:

[Maeve]

12. No such luck

It was a moderator's message asking for an edit--but the edit was done and the post deleted.

Sorry to disappoint! :D

[coloradodem2005]

3. Interesting.

This should dispell any notion that the Bible condons corporal punishment.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

5. Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (nt)

[displacedtexan]

4. Excellent analysis!

I've always pictured a stick (or switch) when I've heard the word 'rod.'
'Guidance' makes more sense than 'beating senseless.'

My pet peeve with bible thumpers is their misunderstanding of repentance. To repent means that not only would you never repeat your offense again, it would never ever again enter your conscience to do so. If you have truly repented, you have reached a higher plane of existence. "Oops, my bad" doesn't cut it.

[seabeyond]

6. buckey

cooleth.........lol lol

so i learned on the first and not being a violent person anyway the disciplining in fear is the easy lazy way out and not productive and of course not of love.

growin up we had the belt slaps across the face and was not child abuse, i never saw or see that way. it was parenting 101 in those days and boy, did i listen to my parents, they had no challenge.

i learned years ago, the teaching a child discipline, and convincing them, they want to make an appropriate choice for self, and to think, was the more time consuming and boy had to be patient type of parenting

the second quote is absolutely saying gotta be connected to child. that takes a lot of time thru out a day, day in and day out.....day after day after day.

yup. thanks for this. we have corrupt punishment in school and in talking to enter child i made clear, and you dont paddle child you call me and if i feel the need i do. (again kids in baptist school they use these lines)

[soleft]

7. A mystical interpretation is that the rod is actually the spine

When you sit in meditation you are rising above the physical senses.

If the child is a state of pure consciousness, but not subjecting the spine, or the senses to the discipline of medication, you fail to achieve a higher state of consciousness.

[pansypoo53219]

8. well, whatever Bar B did

she didn't do a good job wwith the chimperor.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

17. She abused him. Read this shrink's analysis of W. Scary.

I never miss a chance to post this link. It says it all about hitting and humiliating children. They take it personally and pass it on.

From the UK's Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1033904,00.html

[Liberal Veteran]

9. But what about Psalms 137:9

"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."


Just kidding, but to be intellectually honest, the Old Testament calls for disobedient or disloyal children to be killed in Deuteronomy. I rather doubt the same God is going to have issues with corporal punishment.

[Bucky]

11. I don't think you can consider the Gods of Deuteronomy & Proverbs the same

The God of Deuteronomy & Numbers is an exacting, angry, daddy-god. By the time Proverbs was written you had a more sophisticated, orderly society, more attuned to civil justice and civilized discourse. The God of the Pentateuch (the first five Mosaic books) are from a pure oral tradition that is barely monotheistic as we understand it.

I'll take the Proverbs (and Kings) over Deuteronomy and Job any day of the week.

[Bronco69]

10. Actually

I always thought it was Ben Franklin who coined the phrase "spare the rod, spoil the child." Thanks for setting me straight. :-)

[Mountainman]

13. Do we need some religious book to tell us that violence is good?

Can't we see that hitting children with sticks is violence? Do we need to ask if that is OK? Can't we think for ourselves? Can't we find better ways to teach our kids other than beating them?

Screw what the bible says or doesn't say. Don't beat your kids unless you want to teach them that violence is the way to make people conform to some way of acting.

[Character Assassin]

19. Violence is, indeed, at times, quite good.

It should be patently obvious. Or, I should hope that it might be.

[maggrwaggr]

14. neither dogs nor children need to be whacked

I've raised dogs and I'm raising a son and there's absolutely no need to hit either one.

They want your approval, that's your "rod".

You praise them when they do good, you scold them when they do bad. That's about all there is to it.

[Bucky]

15. We're talking about the Bible. Take your love & compassion elsewhere, lady

Imagine the moxy of this woman, dragging nurturing and love into our discussion about what the Bible says.

Sheesh, some people...

[maggrwaggr]

16. I'm not a woman, but that's funny nonetheless

My fundie relatives have this whole theory about whacking their children (and they have a ton of them) with this little rod. My cousin's even written this several-page, badly-spelled diatribe on how and why it works, and how the bible backs it up.

She's got good little soldiers of God there, yup!

[JohnOneillsMemory]

18. Yikes. That is truly sad. I hope those children don't harm anyone else.n/t

[maggrwaggr]

20. they've been home schooled on a farm in Missouri

their whole lives. They've been told the most absolute fundamentalist things their whole lives.

I fear for them when they actually get out into the world. It's either gonna terrify them, or make them realize they've been sold a false bill of goods. Or both. It's just fucked up.