WHY did the U.S. and France remove Aristide?

[worldgonekrazy]

Multiple sources (including Aristide himself via Rep. Maxine Waters) have said that Aristide was forcibly removed and taken to Africa by a small group of U.S. troops. This seems quite credible to me, and given the way Aristide has acted over the past few days (ie refusing to resign) it just doesn't make sense that he would suddenly decide to leave without any coercion.

So, the question is, WHY did the United States and France take this action to have Aristide removed? What is/are the controlling interest(s) here?

If I were to give the Bush Admin. the benefit of the doubt I would say that it might have been an action to defuse the situation. Rather than have the rebels succeed in a forcible coup d'etat, the U.S. and France may have instead acted to resolve the situation before it got out of hand. One might even say that they could have been trying to avoid a Khmer-Rouge type takeover that might result in untold loss of civilian life.

Of course, I have learned time and time again not to give the Bush Admin ANY benefit of the doubt. Furthermore, the above scenario just doesn't fit with the facts. If they were concerned about the rebels themselves, then why not act to stop the rebels, rather than Aristide? They probably could have done so without any U.S. casualties, as we are talking about quite a small (hundreds) force here.

The other extreme take is that the United States removed Aristide because he is involved in some sort of Venezuelan-Cuban populist plot to oppose the imposition of capitalist international economic policy.

I don't believe this either, because Aristide has hardly shown himself to be a champion of the people during his years in office. Everyone, even the side propagating this viewpoint, readily agrees that Aristide was corrupt and ineffective. So why would the Bush Admin. feel the need to oust him? He clearly posed no threat to the corporate order.

My guess is that, as usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

To figure out the answer, we must first figure out what interests the Bush Admin. could possibly have in Haiti. They have no vital national resources that I am aware of, yet alone something like oil as in the attempted U.S. coup of Venezuela. (Although it should be mentioned that this coup appears to be EXACTLY like the Venezuelan one to this point).

A theory has been posited that this coup was a warning to Chavez that if he continues to buck U.S. policy he could face the same destiny. My problem with that theory is that Chavez was already given a very strong warning in the form of being ousted himself for a few days. If he survived that he isn't likely to be swayed much by an identical attempt in a much less powerful nation.

Let us throw our heads together and see if we can figure this out.

[Loonman]

1. Make one up

Works for everyone else.

Bonus points if it has to do with Castro, the CIA or Gitmo.

[el_gato]

3. or you can hide your head in the sand

and pretend that bushco gives a rats ass about democracy in spite of the mountains of evidence to the contrary

[worldgonekrazy]

4. Positing theories and "making them up" are different

All the theories I mentioned are legitimate, IMHO, because they COULD be true, even though I personally do not think that they are. None the less, it is constructive to the debate to throw out ideas and then others can add to or refute them.

[Frodo]

2. Well... it's nice to see the US and France getting along again.

Thought we'd have to go through therapy or something.

[seemslikeadream]

5. Haiti's Lawyer: U.S. Is Arming Anti-Aristide Paramilitaries

The US lawyer representing the government of Haiti charged today that the US government is directly involved in a military coup attempt against the country's demorcratically elected President, Jean-Bertrand Aristide. Ira Kurzban, the Miami-based attorney who had served General Counsel to the Haitian government since 1991, said that the paramilitaries fighting to overthrow Aristide are being backed by Washington.

"I believe that this a group that is armed by, trained by, and employed by the intelligence services of the United States, "Kurzban told the natioal radio and TV program Democracy Now! "This is clearly a military coup."

http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/newsArticle.asp?id=1573

Maybe he'll end up in a cell next to Noreiga

[evil_orange_cat]

6. I doubt he was "removed"...

it seems as if people are seeing fire where there's no smoke...

a warning to Chavez? :eyes: don't you think the 2002 attempted coup in Venezuela was "warning" enough?

sorry... there is no motive that justifies the risk such covert action could mean if it became public. You have to think like a Bushy here people. He's a corrupt corporate type. Look at risk versus reward. Iraq was a no-brainer... oil and getting the guy who tried to "kill my daddy". Afghanistan? Public relations victory against the "evil taliban"... getting OBL... and securing land for an oil pipeline into Karachi.

But Haiti? It's a boofoo country that's worthless.

[worldgonekrazy]

8. Then what is Aristide's motive in claiming that he was kidnapped?

Explain THAT one to me.

It seems to me that he only risks drawing the ire of the United States if he is claiming this and it isn't true. Its too late to ask for hush money since its already out.

Unless, of course, he really was forcibly removed and Aristide wants this to get out so that the United States can't "disappear" him.

[evil_orange_cat]

12. you trust Aristide?

this guy's a thug... he's increasingly become repressive, as well as being increasingly connected to drug traffiking.

I guess if you can't trust a corrupt, drug running, oppressive leader, who can you trust?

Plus, if the US was behind this, why wouldn't the US have the rebels just kill Aristide rather than run to the French? The French would just love to expose some kind of American covert action in Haiti.

[Cheswick2.0]

25. do you have any proof of Aristide's corruption and drug running?

I know better, but I will consider your assertions if you have any proof.

[orwell]

27. In Bush We Trust

"I guess if you can't trust a corrupt, drug running, oppressive leader, who can you trust?

A very cogent argument for the removal of both Bush Administrations.

O

[indigo32]

19. I dunno

Normally I'd agree, but they seem to think they can get away with anything. Christ... Colin Powell sat in front of the United Nations and lied, even had pictures to help him. If they feel they are justified they feel they can get away with it.

[seemslikeadream]

7. Ousted Haitian President Aristide claims he war 'kidnapped'

"The world must know it was a coup," Waters quoted Aristide as saying, "That I was kidnapped. That I was forced out. That's what happened. I did not resign. I did not go willingly. I was forced to go."

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/8078434.htm

[Cooley Hurd]

10. Rumsfeld did NOT deny it!!!

He said he'd be "surprised" if Aristide was abducted...

Now saying this was a State Dept operation - he has "no knowledge of a kidnapping." Telling reporters to ask the State Dept...

[seemslikeadream]

9. Aristide victim of a coup: Montreal protesters

Some Haitians in Montreal are characterizing the departure of former president Jean-Bertrand Aristide as an international coup.

"Aristide represents the majority of population of Haiti. That's why the rich people are against Haiti," one said.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1078094383161_40/?hub=CTVNewsAt11

[worldgonekrazy]

11. Not as simple as that

Aristide may nominally be interested in helping the poor, but really he is just another corrupt politician whoring for the international corporate order. The only reason I can come up with is that he must not have been whoring enough.

[bigtree]

13. Who do you support to lead Haiti?

The CIA funded Rebels who were shooting into hospitals yesterday?

[seemslikeadream]

14. PC on the US role in the Haitian Crisis

Bush accused of supporting Haitian rebels

Acitivists at a Friday press briefing outlined what they believe to be a well-crafted plan by the Bush administration to overthrow Aristide. Former Haitian military members, drug dealers and militants were armed and trained in the Dominican Republic thanks to military support from the United States. They have now crossed the border into Haiti, activits said.

http://internationalanswer.org/news/update/022804haiti.html

[Oilwellian]

24. I'd love to see your sources

Thanks.

[orwell]

30. Get With the Program

Some whore.

"In his book, The Eyes of the Heart, Haitian President Jean-Bernard Aristide describes the devastating effects of free trade policies advocated by the World Bank and the IMF. Until recently, Haitian farmers grew most of the rice, the main staple food, needed to feed the country. Only 7,000 tons were imported in 1986. In the late 1980's, after Haiti complied with the IMF mandate to lift tariffs on imported rice, highly subsidized rice grown in the United States flooded into Haiti. Roughly 40% of US rice farmers' profits came directly from US government subsidies. By 1986, Haiti was importing 196,000 tons of rice at the cost of $100 million per year. Haitian rice farmers were wiped out. Once the dependence on foreign rice was complete, import prices began to rise, leaving Haiti's population, particularly the urban poor, completely at the whim of rising grain prices.

http://www.mexicosolidarity.org/ftaa_cfs.html

"Around the world, the IMF has undermined labor rights in connection with the imposition of structural adjustment and stabilization programs. In South Korea, the IMF forced the government to revise its labor law to permit mass layoffs, and encouraged private companies to massively downsize. In Haiti, the IMF teamed with the World Bank to stifle President Jean-Bertrand Aristide's initiative to raise the country's paltry minimum wage. In Zambia, among many other places, IMF-demanded policies led to huge layoffs in the state sector."

http://www.cepr.net/IMF/essential.htm

Maybe he didn't get the memo...

O

[Isome]

33. Who said he was corrupt?

Members of FRAPH? Duvalier supporters? Emmanuel Constant? Who said he was corrupt, and were they CIA-paid informants like the murderous Emmanuel Constant?

Why did the U.S. redact documents they took from FRAPH offices in '96 and refuse to return the untouched originals? Why did the U.N. Human Rights Commission find that the CIA was heavily involved in funding and supporting the opposition to Aristide in '96, even as they told the rest of the world they were supporting Aristide?

[windansea]

34. these guys say so

Reporters sans frontieres

Nearly 30 Haitian journalists have fled abroad in the past three years after being threatened by Aristide supporters and two journalists have been murdered. As a result, Aristide has been put on the Reporters Without Borders worldwide list of 42 predators of press freedom

Haiti - 2003 Annual Report

Impunity continued to hold sway in Haiti. It gave government supporters a free hand to harass and attack the press and opposition. Facing growing opposition, President Aristide's government tried to use fear to hold on to power. More journalists were forced into exile. The investigations into the deaths of Jean Dominique and Brignol Lindor did not progress. On the contrary, their killers continued to threaten the families of both journalists.

At least 40 journalists were physically attacked or threatened in 2002. The Association of Haitian Journalists (AJH) put the figure at more than 60. Some had reported on the collapse of the cooperative savings schemes in 2002, which ruined tens of thousands of small savers and in which the government was allegedly implicated at the highest level. It was amid such scandals that Israël Jacky Cantave of Caraïbes FM was kidnapped in July in what Cantave viewed as a government warning to the press. After Cantave was threatened and forced into exile, a warrant was issued for his arrest for not cooperating with investigators.
The year ended with demonstrations demanding President Aristide's resignation and growing tension, in which journalists paid the price. Seven journalists had to go into hiding in Gonaïves after covering one of the first big anti-government demonstrations. They were threatened by the Cannibal Army, a "popular organisation" led by Amiot Métayer which terrorized this northern town ever since Métayer broke out of prison in August 2002. After initially promising to rearrest him, the government apparently preferred to use him as a blunt instrument against its opponents.
Métayer had been arrested because of his violent attacks on the opposition during a supposedly spontaneous reaction to what was portrayed as an attempted coup d'etat on 17 December 2001. An Organisation of American States (OAS) enquiry published in July concluded not only that it was not a coup d'etat but also that police officers were accomplices to the attack staged on the presidential palace. The enquiry also stressed that the ensuing violence against the opposition had been carried with logistic support from the authorities. Those targeted on 17 December 2001 included some 10 journalists who afterwards went into exile. The increasingly discredited government could try to repeat this kind of operation, in which it poses as the victim in order to have a pretext for cracking down on the opposition and press.

http://www.rsf.fr/article.php3?id_article=6197

thats just one RWB article...many more here

http://www.rsf.fr/sinequa_en.php3?iFullTextQuery=haiti&iLanguage=engli ...

[Oilwellian]

40. ROFLMAO!

From your own source, this is what they've posted about American journalists:

19 December 2003 - United States
Judge urged to respect confidentiality of sources
14 October 2003 - United States
Guantanamo : ban on asking questions lifted
20 May 2003 - United States
Six French journalists arrested and deported from the United States
26 March 2003 - United-States
Al-Jazeera TV station singled out in ban by New York Stock Exchange
20 September 2002 - United-States
Al-Jazeera journalist held at Guantanamo
23 July 2002 - United States
Two journalists risk jail for criminel libel
3 June 2002 - United States
FBI reforms threaten the confidentiality of journalists' work
23 May 2002 - Europe / United-States
Press freedom being tested by Bush Administration's anti-terrorist policy
27 February 2002 - United States
The Bush administration shuts down the OSI
13 February 2002 - United States
A Washington Post correspondent in Afghanistan restrained at gunpoint by American soldiers
4 January 2002 - United States
A freelance journalist jailed for having refused to reveal her sources

Does this mean we can overthrow Bush's junta now??? ROFLMAO! Your propaganda is stunning!

[windansea]

41. yep..RWB is very non biased

thanks for pointing that out!!

so how is it propaganda?? must of missed that part

[windansea]

35. and these guys too (Carter Institute)

http://www.cartercenter.org/documents/1248.pdf

and these reports on 2000 election from politics and elections.com


Former President Jean-Bertrand Aristide won election as president of Haiti again, winning 92% of the vote according to the country's electoral council. All major opposition parties boycotted the election.

Aristide's Lavalas Family Party won all nine Senate seats that were contested, giving it all but one seat in the upper house. Lavalas Family also won 80% of the House of Assembly seats in may, June and July legislative elections. Opponents charge that those elections were rigged to enable Aristide to govern with, effectively, one-party rule.

Aristide was first elected in 1990, ending nearly 200 years of dictatorship. A bloody army coup kicked him out seven months later, followed by a terroristic military government, and than an invasion by U.S. troops to restore Aristide to power.

Opposition activist Evans Paul said ballot boxes were stuffed and tally sheets altered to make it look like a higher turnout. Some polls closed hours early for lack of voters.

more...

http://www.politicsandelections.com/international/hai.htm

[Oilwellian]

42. The irony of...

you using the questionable election of Aristide as a good reason for the coup, is just too delicious to ignore. Remember our 2000 election? ROFLMAO! Too much!

[windansea]

43. please show me where I have supported a coup

all I've done is point out sources like the Carter Institute, politicsandelections.com, reporters without Borders, The Guardian, etc to back up my opinion that Aristade was a thug posing as a populist who in 95 and 2000 rigged the elections and used armed gangs to threaten the opposition and intimidate reporters and the press

Carter Institute report on 1995 election

http://www.cartercenter.org/documents/1248.pdf

and these reports on 2000 election from politics and elections.com

http://www.politicsandelections.com/international/hai.htm

reporters without borders

http://www.rsf.fr/article.php3?id_article=6197

thats just one RWB article...many more here

http://www.rsf.fr/sinequa_en.php3?iFullTextQuery=haiti&iLanguage=engli ...

Guardian article

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1159230,00.html

so far you have come up with zip...nada...zero...

[Kathy in Cambridge]

38. Aristide refused to follow the demands of WTO, IMF, and the World Bank

That's why he was ousted. If the President of Haiti was properly elected, why are we not supporting him?

[Zero Gravitas]

15. Election Year Politics

Haiti has no oil or other natural resources, so there is no motivation for the Bush* Regime to interfere. However this is an election year in the US. Sitting idly by while the country collapses into a bloodbath doesn't look good on would only underline the Bush regime's total ineptness on foreign policy. So they make the problem go away by forcing Aristed out.

I don't know if the Bushies were behind Aristede's ouster or not, but that theory makes sense to me, given their cynical manipulation of other issues.

[Zinfandel]

44. What the fuck are you talking about...slave labor is a Bush resource he

can't resist. Aristede was elected legally by the people of Haiti. Aristede was supported by the Clinton administration and is considered a leftish by the Bush fascist.

Any leader, in any country, in our hemisphere who is not a right wing dictator and does not bend over for corporate America, WTO, INF & World Bank is considered a threat to the right wing fascist and corporations in this country.

The whole reason for the CIA, has become to protect US corporate business interest and to create more for corporations all around the world...Iraq and it's oil, Afghanistan gas, pipeline, opium poppies, Haiti has agriculture and cheap labor, and on and on. If a country is being subverted, undermined, and exploited somewhere in the world, the CIA is involved and you can bet US corporations see dollar signs in that country. And they don't care what happens to the people there (death squads or whatever it takes, for profit for corporations and it's our tax dollars paying for it, so they continue to lie to us about what's really happening.)

And they can't and have never been able to do shit about Cuba's socialist leader, Fidel Castro for over 46 years...nor will they ever. And that pisses off the BushCo cocksuckers to no end...makes me smile!!!!

[seemslikeadream]

16. Chaos reigns as Aristide flees Haiti

"France and the U.S. kidnapped him with a knife to his throat," said Regert Ismaal.

http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=eea87642-3bb1-47f8-967e-da54ad6d6924

[Cooley Hurd]

18. There was a story going around saying he was led away...

...in handcuffs, but Rep Waters denied this. Haven't heard anything about a knife to his throat, though...

[seemslikeadream]

21. There's so much I'm just trying to post all news

I can find.

[morgan2]

23. the handcuffs thing

was a statement by the care taker of Aristedes' house. He said he was being led away handcuffed by US troops. Could just be a miss translation or he could have looked like he was because he was being led away by armed troops.

[Jose Diablo]

17. *Bush thinks he can do anything

He believes he can retain power no matter what he does.

Well, we shall see, 3/20.

[seemslikeadream]

20. Coup d'etat in Haiti

The deed is done.
Haiti has been raped.
The act was sanctioned by the United States, Canada and France.

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com?editorial/html/20040301T000000-0500_56431_OBS_COUP_D_ETAT_IN_HAITI.asp

[morgan2]

22. thats what everyone wants to know..

What'd I'd like to see someone ask Scotty...

"Members of the administration have continually said that Aristede's government, although Democratically elected, has not governed democratically and is a failed presidency. What specifically did they do wrong? And why does this give the opposition the right to overthrow him? By your logic if that gives the opposition the right to overthrow the president, than wouldn't President Bush's lies about <pick your lie> be reason for the opposition here to overthrow him?"

[Oilwellian]

28. Ding ding ding!

We have a winner here folks.

[orwell]

26. Birth of a Regime

As far as whether Aristide was forcibly removed, a reporter on the ground in Port Au Prince said that a reporter for a major US media outlet phoned him and told him that Aristide left the palace early in the morning in shackles. The reporter who made the phone call said that he would not directly report this because he fears for his own safety.

It seems quite a stretch to think that US interests were not directly behind this coup. Whatever you think of Aristide, anybody who supports the rule of law should be very concerned about this whole affair. There is a growing body of evidence, both circumstantial and direct, that the US is directly involved in the insurgence in Venezuela as well as this coup in Haiti.

It seems that the greatest crime you can perpetrate in not to genuflect before the American Imperium. The terrorist "good/evil" rhetoric is now shown as a complete fraud with the American acquiescence to this rebellion, led by such notable murderers as Guy Phillipe and Louis-Jodel Chamblain.

Anyone who cheered when Saddam was ousted claiming the the US had to act to "remove the tyrant" are watching the birth of the next pro-west dictator before our eyes. I'm sure he will undrestand the implications of his pact with the devil.

Don't piss off Big Daddy.

O

[tobius]

29. the credibility of maxine waters is laughable. nt

[Isome]

31. Says who?

...

[Oilwellian]

32. Do you also feel the same way

about Charles Rangel and Barbara Lee? They are both affirming what Aristide is saying.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

39. Please give examples of her "laughable" credibility

We're waiting for your wisdom on the subject...

[tobius]

45. sorry, I thought you were all being facetious. here is a start

Senator John F. Kerry (D-MA), chairman of the Senate subcommittee on terrorism, narcotics and international operations in the 1980s, said recently, "There is no question in my mind that people affiliated with. . .the CIA were involved in drug trafficking while involved in support of the contras, but it is also important to note that we never found any evidence to suggest that these traffickers ever targeted any one geographic area or population group."
http://www.ndsn.org/oct96/ciadrugs.html
Waters came away from her investigation with "the undeniable conclusion that the CIA, DEA , DIA , and FBI knew about drug trafficking in South Central Los Angeles. They were either part of the trafficking or turned a blind eye to it in an effort to fund the contra war."http://www.marijuananews.com/marijuananews/cowan/representative_waters_promises_t.htm
---------------------------------------------
Q. Yes, but some have said a lot of the black or darker skinned Cubans are in some sense oppressed, like in America?
A. No, that is not true. There are problems, I'm sure, wherever there is color in this world. No, I don't see oppression of black people in Cuba in the way that you're describing. http://www.globalblackwoman.com/worldaffairs.html

Cuba has a population of over 11 million people. Approximately 60% are Black. However, while the Cuban constitution declares everyone equal, Cuban society is stratified by race and color of skin. Viewed as a pyramid, White Cubans are at the apex, mulatto's or mixed race are in the middle and Afro-Cubans are at the bottom. The same position they occupied before the revolution.

There are virtually no Afro-Cubans found in the hierarchy of the Cuban government. And they are not found anywhere else in anything close to their numbers in the population. When it comes to addressing Cuba's entrenched racism Castro plays the American Left like a fiddle. He knows that all he has to do is acknowledge the sorry fact and that will be enough to impress the Left. That Castro has done nothing to correct it is overlooked. http://www.blacklightonline.com/cubaracism.html
-------------------------------------------------------
"There is evidence inside those buildings that confirms that the CIA helped to destroy black folks. That's called genocide." Maxine Waters, South-Central Los Angeles's member of Congress, told a rally that "People in high places, knowing about it, winking, blinking, and in South Central Los Angeles, our children were dying." http://www.danielpipes.org/books/conspiracychap.php
---------------------------------------------------------
On the "conspiracy" that ron brown was shot in the head before the plane crashed--
"If this started with some politician or in the streets, it would be one thing. But this all started with high-level armed services people who can't be ignored," Waters said.
Adding to the concern of Waters and others is the fact that X-rays of Brown's head can't be located. Kelly said the missing X-rays hadn't created a problem because slides of them are available. http://www.news-star.com/stories/010898/gov_brown.html
------------------------------------------------------------
During the L.A. rioting, Democratic Rep. Maxine Waters, a black woman in whose district the rioting began, sought to justify the rioting saying, "That's what happens when people are frustrated and angry and feel there is no justice."
Said Sykes: "I think you probably saw all the culture of victimization replayed in L.A. First, it was used to justify criminal behavior. Then there were all the excuses of, 'We can't expect anything better of them.' " Waters' comments aside, many black leaders have said that nothing justified the L.A. rioting. http://www.fumento.com/sinead.html
This is a woman who visited the home of Damian Williams, the infamous thug who 'expressed himself' by hurling a chunk of concrete at white truck driver Reginald Denny and performing a victory dance over the innocent bystander.


lots more

[Isome]

46. That's true...

...Where were you? You didn't know?

[tobius]

48. what's true? nt

[corporatewhore]

36. To send a message to Chavez imo

[Isome]

37. Sounds plausible...

If you guys aren't moved by this travesty... there is absolutely no hope for this country. None!

There's no way this country can ever be a true democractic republic as long as we shrug our shoulders as the government stages coups in other countries, and we mindlessly repeat the half-truths and outright lies we're told.

We're going to hell!

[Nlighten1]

47. France is involved because...

Aristede was trying to recover some land? I heard something earlier about a $21 Billion dollar bill that Aristede was trying to get France to settle.