Well, I won't be backing Aristide on this one

[ShaneGR]

I can remember during my two years in Ft. Lauderdale how the Haitian community there viewed Aristide. Here's a guy who was a priest before initially becoming leader of Haiti. What did he deliver? Massive unemployment. Massive poverty. Repercussions for the families of people who tried to flee to the US. Massive renovation's on million dollar palaces. A clearly flawed election a few years ago.

People really should learn a little more about Haiti before they make Aristide into some hero for the left.

[thebigidea]

1. you might as well throw in a footnote calling people "Saddam lovers"

So who exactly is trying to make Aristide a hero?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

Given the choice, what other alternative do we have?

[htuttle]

2. The social studies teacher that once taught you about Democracy...

....surely weeps.

[SoCalDem]

3. I don't think people are glorifying him.. It's just that

What gives OUR government the right to decide whether ANY elected leader of a different country is "not governing well, and needs to be "resigned"??

That's the key issue..

We have a guy right here who is not "governing well", but because we are the biggest bully on the block and we have all the weapons, no one will remove our bully :(

[Loonman]

4. Exactly

I'm astounded by the ignorance.

I've worked with several Haitian immigrants over the years, and Aristide was a horrible leader.

People bitch about "1st Amendment zones", here.

You protest Aristide in Haiti you get arrested and/or killed.

Your family, too.

[htuttle]

12. Hmm...were there 'rape rooms' in Haiti?

If there weren't rape rooms, well, then I don't know....any Weapons of Mass Destruction, perhaps? Anything like that? Collaborating with Al Queda, maybe?

[SoCalDem]

16. Scotty says there were "thugs"

There are thugs in Iraq too.. Thugs are everywhere...even here :(

[Isome]

13. It depends on the Haitian's status before he left Haiti... as a rule.

I know lots of Haitian-Americans, and it's only the very rich ones who don't like Aristide.

[Loonman]

15. Never met a rich Haitian

Not even once.

Sorry.

[Isome]

41. Then you don't know Haiti.

It's made up of the very rich and the very poor. No middle class.

After Duvalier... many of the rich ones fled here... to Miami area. They are rich by AMERICAN standards. A guy I knew had his little brother enrolled in Gulliver Academy (rich kids private school) and had the money to open three different clubs. One of the clubs he opened was in the heart of Coconut Grove. He had beaucoup bucks.

You can't grasp the complexities of the situation if you don't even know there are rich Haitians, or a caste system. That's where the opposition to Aristide started... with the wealthy and the former FRAPH / tonton macoutes / military.

[Loonman]

57. Thanks, I'll tell my Haitian friends they don't exist

I'll tell them, your opinion in the Aristide situation doesn't matter because you came to the US to make money for your family since Aristide refused to employ you at home.

[Isome]

61. What... I came to America?

Huh'? I was born in America.

Your friends don't exist? Are they all in your head? What?!

[Sterling]

90. I know many rich Haitians, Wyclef Jean is one

Oddly enough i heard he supposts the rebels. I know his family and they are nice people but not poor by a long shot.

I talk to a lot of Haitian cabby's here in NYC and they by and large support Aristide. They say things are better under him.

[Tinoire]

22. Thanks Isome. And not even all rich Haitians.

A few rich Haitians actually have a conscience.

Aristide's main foes are the Duvalieristes (oh but those callers are to many Americans' liking), the FRAPH and the OPL.

The US organized a "pro-democracy" protest in Miami earlier this month. It was made up of anti-Aristide Haitians, anti-Chavez Venezuelans & I think even anti-Castro Cubans.

Less than 300 people showed up.

For Aristide, thousands took to the streets in Brooklyn and there is crying, wailing all over Miami.

[Isome]

43. You're welcome... thanks finishing...

what I left unsaid. I'm in a tizzy. I am so disconcerted by this whole thing. It isn't just an issue of Haiti... it's our foreign policy... our skullduggery... we're in trouble if our citizens let this one go by.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

And who were the Haitian leaders before Aristide?....

Maybe you ought to read some Haitian history before you begin proclaiming the "ignorance" you believe exists on this board:

<http://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/haiti/history/history.htm>

Pay particular attention to Papa Doc and Baby Doc Duvalier, 1957-1986, and the U.S. occupation from 1915-1934.

[ParanoidPat]

86. Funny, I seem to remember seeing LOTS of protests in Haiti on TV.....

.....Do you mean to tell me ALL of those protesters AND their families are DEAD NOW?!?!? :evilfrown:

Gee, a simple Google Search for Haiti, protest gets you 184,000 hits! I guess his strategy of killing protesters and their families wasn't working out so well. :evilgrin:

[Bandit]

5. It isn't Aristide you need to back it is Democracy

Let the Haitian people decide who they back not you. If you can't see the difference then I'm sorry for you.

[tom_paine]

6. People defending Aristide aren't doing so because he's a "hero"

But because if the Hatians are going to remove Aristide, they should do it themselves.

Besides, like our fellow Third World Nation, Imperial Amerika also has had two clearly flawed "elections" and the problem is getting worse, not better.

I guess "people should have learned a little more about Argentina" before they demonized Augusto Pinochet, a dear friend of the Imperial Family of Amerika.

Those who don't remember history are doomed to lose their Republic and have an Imperial Boot on their Necks while the Imperial Family loots the nation six ways from Sunday.

Yep, I'd say such people deserve exactly the fate that they are getting under Orwellian Imperial Amerika.

[Loonman]

9. How do you remove a guy

Who has a gang put a burning tire around your neck if you protest?

[bobbieinok]

17. I thought that was in South Africa

...

[tom_paine]

20. You mean like Imperial Family chum Pinochet?

Actually, as I understand it, pushing his opponenets out of a helicopter and into the ocean was his style (well, one of 'em).

Wow, Loonman, the mask's really off now, isn't it?

interesting...

[Loonman]

24. How do you?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1159230,00.html

[atreides1]

21. The Same Way....

...the Founders did, you fight. Remember a fledgling group that decided to stand up to a bully that was a "Super Power" at the time.

You resist just like the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto did, you do what
you can with what you have.

Because if freedom isn't worth your life then you don't deserve it.

You fight back like the Zealots on Masada, you hold like the those at the Alamo or Wake Island, and you fight until you feel you cannot fight anymore and then you keep going.

There might come a time, and soon, when we here in the US will have to fight for our freedom again. How will we do this, by any means neccessary.

[bicentennial_baby]

28. That was in South Africa

Jeez.

[Rowdyboy]

19. Uh, General Pinochet wasn't Argentinian....

He was dictator of Chile....

[tom_paine]

62. Wups, my bad.

[ShaneGR]

81. Well

But because if the Hatians are going to remove Aristide, they should do it themselves.


It appears that is what they were doing.

[Bandit]

83. Not by ballot, or doesn't that matter?

:shrug: Aristide just doesn't dance to the US's tune. They would never put a recall ballot out there because Aristide would not be recalled and the thugs who brought about the coup would never win an election. It has to be done by coup and that is how according to the Bush* administration a better Democracy will be formed.

[Caution]

7. I don't see many making him out to be a hero

But regardless of who the man is, the US government cannot do what was alleged to have happened, which is send in the military to simply kidnap the democratically elected leader of a sovereign state.

This is the same as the Hussein argument...bad man...must be taken out. Well fine, but you must have the backing of the UN to do this, otherwise what is to stop some future nation from diong the same to the US over our weapons of mass destruction programs (including chemical, biological and nuclear)? Violating the sovereignty of another nation is an act of war plain and simple, if the Bush administration keeps doing this (this is nation #3 if true), pretty soon there will be a banding together of foreign powers against the US.

[GOPisEvil]

8. The termination of US Aid in 2001 had NOTHING to do with any of that...

...NOTHING...

[ret5hd]

23. So quit saying that!!!

It seems as if some believe that:

a poor island country wracked from decades of despotism, dictatorship, and thievery, left with a decimated economy and rampant poverty, then denied aid from the very countries that profited from said despotism, dictatorship, and thievery---

should then be able to stand up, dust itself off, and carry on as if nothing happened. Hell, anyone could lead a country like that into prosperity, huh? And if someone can't, he should be DEPOSED, right?

i swear, GOP, there are some here that refuse to see what is before their eyes.

[DenverDem]

33. And there are people here who are committed to disinformation

and denialism about what America's black operations are doing there to destabilize the country in the first place.

Just because CNN is not reporting on it doesn't mean it's not happening.

[ret5hd]

48. yeah, i know...

not only are some committed to disinformation, but there is also an established cadre here whose main goal seems to be to keep us tied up arguing minutia and petty points, and feigning gross indignation at the smallest slight.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

55. DU posters "committed to disinformation"

there will be more and more as the election goes on ...

[sangh0]

64. Does that mean you're just the first?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x416082

[DenverDem]

59. Professional operatives.

Prove me wrong.

[sangh0]

65. You might be right

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x416082

[Shanty Oilish]

95. Don't forget...

...several billion dollars in foreign aid.

[Chicago Democrat]

10. Democratically Elected- Cut off by USA in 2000

of 500 million in Aid..

All a concerted effort by Bush Inc, lead by Haitian Exiles to overthrough a "liberation theology" democrat in the most impoverished country in the Western Hemisphere.

A Democratically elected leader in a sardine can of misery, purposefully kidnapped by USA marines.

Apparently poor people have to do it all by themselves? At the first challenge USA caves into Haitian Exiles and Dictators. The is not the USA I want.

Denying Haiti Democracy, while imposing it on others is racist.

[windansea]

31. I wouldn't say democratically

Carter Institute report on 1995 election

http://www.cartercenter.org/documents/1248.pdf

and these reports on 2000 election from politics and elections.com


Former President Jean-Bertrand Aristide won election as president of Haiti again, winning 92% of the vote according to the country's electoral council. All major opposition parties boycotted the election.

Aristide's Lavalas Family Party won all nine Senate seats that were contested, giving it all but one seat in the upper house. Lavalas Family also won 80% of the House of Assembly seats in may, June and July legislative elections. Opponents charge that those elections were rigged to enable Aristide to govern with, effectively, one-party rule.

Aristide was first elected in 1990, ending nearly 200 years of dictatorship. A bloody army coup kicked him out seven months later, followed by a terroristic military government, and than an invasion by U.S. troops to restore Aristide to power.

Opposition activist Evans Paul said ballot boxes were stuffed and tally sheets altered to make it look like a higher turnout. Some polls closed hours early for lack of voters.

more...

http://www.politicsandelections.com/international/hai.htm

[Isome]

39. you have to report the rest...

or didn't they put that in the report? i don't know, i didn't go to the link.

Aristide had all of those who were elected in that election to step down so that a new election could be held. the opposition refused to participate.

[Oilwellian]

44. windandsea is on a mission

:D

[windansea]

54. at least I have sources

like the Carter Institute, politicsandelections.com, reporters without Borders, The Guardian, etc to back up my opinion that Aristade was a thug posing as a populist who in 95 and 2000 rigged the elections and used armed gangs to threaten the opposition and intimidate reporters and the press

Carter Institute report on 1995 election

http://www.cartercenter.org/documents/1248.pdf

and these reports on 2000 election from politics and elections.com

http://www.politicsandelections.com/international/hai.htm

reporters without borders

http://www.rsf.fr/article.php3?id_article=6197

thats just one RWB article...many more here

http://www.rsf.fr/sinequa_en.php3?iFullTextQuery=haiti&iLanguage=engli ...

Guardian article

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1159230,00.html



so far you have come up with zip

[Isome]

68. One at a time then

In November 2000, Aristide was reelected president, though the balloting was boycotted by the main Haitian opposition coalition, the Democratic Convergence, which contended that there was no possibility for a fair election because of the supposed fraud in the senate elections held earlier that year.

In fact, those elections were widely acknowledged at the time to be generally free and fair; the only dispute focused on the status of seven senators, some of whom should have been required to go to a runoff round, even though almost all of them had achieved strong pluralities. This relatively minor imperfection has been blown out of proportion and repeatedly brandished by the ironically-labeled “democratic opposition” in Haiti—both the Democratic Convergence and the subsequently formed Group of 184—as evidence of the illegitimacy of the Aristide government. In fact, the opposition was elected by no one and the offending senators all have long since resigned, at the president’s urging. Aristide repeatedly has offered new elections, which the opposition persistently has refused, preferring instead to stage provocative protests in the capital, Port-au-Prince. Even after the terms of one third of the lower house of Haiti’s parliament expired in January of this year, rendering the legislative body without a quorum and stalling all legitimate political processes – forcing Aristide to rule by decree – the opposition continues to refuse to nominate representatives to the provisional electoral council, an essential prerequisite for the holding of new elections, according to Resolution 822 of the Organization of American States, passed in 2000. ...

http://www.coha.org/NEW_PRESS_RELEASES/New_Press_Releases_2004/04.12_Haiti_Op-ed_ThisDay.htm

[Isome]

72. Five Facts:

Someone else did the work, and I get to cut & paste...

1. The US Government Backs the Haitian Opposition Financially

Between 1994-2002, "Washington has funnelled some $70 million to fund and organize an opposition to President Aristide." <1> This opposition goes under the broad name of Democratic Platform, which is made of various elite-led opposition groups such as Democratic Convergence and The Group of 184. These groups are frequently cited by international media with no mention of their affiliation with the US government and the Brookings Institution (a right-wing think tank), USAID, and the International Republican Institute. <2>

Beginning before the election of Jean Bertrand Aristide (with 92% of the vote), the opposition (whose support is estimated at between 8% and 12%) has called for Aristide's resignation, demanding that he share the presidency with them. <3> More recently, they have refused to negotiate with the elected government <4>, continuing to demand Aristide's resignation. They have also called for the reinstatement of the Haitian Military.

Not coincidentally, US officials have repeatedly hinted that Aristide must be replaced. <5>

Instead of condemning the opposition--which, given their sources of funding, would undoubtedly have a profound effect--the US and Canada have placed the blame on Aristide. <6> The US may also be supporting paramilitary groups operating in Haiti. More than one comentator has pointed out the uncanny timing of a military aid shipment of US-made M-16s to the neighboring Dominican Republic and the simultaneous appearance of new M-16s in the hands of paramilitaries. <7>

<1> Kim Ives at: "US policy towards Haiti promotes economic instability" http://www.progressive.org/Media%20Project%202/mpin602.html

<2> On Democratic Platform and its connections to Haiti Democracy Project see: "Anti-Aristide Groups split threat to future" http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-copposition14feb14,1,7650882.story

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43a/006.html

http://www.haitipolicy.org, the website of the Haiti Democracy Project, and specifically a telling transcript of their position as stated in National Public Radio broadcast: http://www.haitipolicy.org/content/1490.htm?PHPSESSID=6321cf5e7fe783ade9215b8ffda7bf8d

Also see IRI's website for general information: http://www.iri.org/countries.asp?ID=7826537582 see also their Haiti-specific website http://www.haitigetinvolved.com.

<3> See Stan Goff, http://counterpunch.org/goff02142004.html For a discussion of the elections, see http://www.progressive.org/oren0101.html

<4> http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/international/jan-june04/haiti_2-16.html

<5> Congresswoman Barbara Lee asks Colin Powell for clarification http://www.house.gov/lee/releases/04Feb11.htm http://www.house.gov/lee/releases/04Feb19b.htm

Council on Hemispheric Affairs describes Washington's "option zero" policy http://coha.org/NEW_PRESS_RELEASES/New_Press_Releases_2003/03.74_Haiti_Needs_Christmas_Present.htm

Also see a Feb. 11 statement and interview with US Congresswoman Maxine Waters http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/16/1746202 http://www.sfbayview.com/021804/maxinewaterswarns021804.shtml

Stan Goff: Bush administration is preparing to declare Haiti a "failed state" http://www.blackcommentator.com/78/78_haiti.html

<6> http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=3337§ionID=2 http://www.haiti-info.com/article.php3?id_article=148

<7> See Tome Reeves's "U.S. Double Game in Haiti at: http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=2&ItemID=4997, and Anthony Fenton's "Media vs. Reality in Haiti: http://zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=2&ItemID=4977 For more on the possibility that the US is funding Haitian "Contra", see http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Feb04/Pina0212.htm

[Isome]

73. 2 of 5

2. US Policy is Integral to Economic and Humanitarian Disaster in Haiti

As recently as 1991, the US is known to have supported a military coup to overthrow a democratically elected government in Haiti. Former Paramilitary leader Emmanuel Constant told 60 minutes that the CIA supported the coup, during which over 5,000 Haitians were murdered. <8> Constant, who has been convicted of murder in Haiti, is one on many international terrorists being harboured by the US. <9>

Since 2000, the U.S. has withheld over $500 million in direct economic aid to Haiti and has persuaded lending institutions, such as the Interamerican Development Bank and the World Bank to deny previously-approved loans, in excess of $150 million. <10>

By contrast, aid money and loans flowed freely from the US when the murderous "Papa Doc" Duvalier was in power, and during the rule of the military junta between 1991 and 1994, when 5,000 Haitians were murdered and thousands starved. <11>

Haiti's annual budget in 2001 was $361 million. <12>

Numerous aid organizations have called upon the international community and the United Nations for assistance, as the humanitarian situation in Haiti is reaching crisis levels. <13> Thus far the Canadian government has pledged to send $1 million, while the US has offered only $500,000.

Repeated requests by Aristide for emergency military aid have been denied by the US, Canada and the international community, who have all refused to intervene "until a political situation is reached." <14> The denial of financial or military support by the US continues while reconstituted Haitian paramilitaries continue to ravage the population. <15>

<8> On Constant, see under "1996": http://www.geocities.com/~virtualtruth/constant.htm. Constant admitted in a 1995 interview with 60 Minutes, that he was on a CIA payroll. An eyewitness says the US and UN failed to act to prevent the coup: http://www.newint.org/issue258/endpiece.htm

<9> See Chomsky's "Who are the Global Terrorists?" at: http://www.chomsky.info/articles/200205--02.htm.

<10> See Tom Reeves's "Still up against the death plan in Haiti", on economic sanctions at: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Caribbean/UpAgainstDeathPlan_Haiti.html

<11> http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA%20Hits/Haiti_CIAHits.html http://www.giles.34sp.com/biographies/papadoc.htm

<12> For economic data see: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ha.html

<13>See "Caribbean Nations Appeal for Aid in Haiti" at http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/8008956.htm

<14> See "Canada assists the people of Haiti," press annoucement Feb. 17th, 2004 at: http://www.acdi-cida.gc.ca/cida_ind.nsf/dccfe1952450f552852568db00555b47/42e1e21cc6b2b01d85256e3d005ccb02?OpenDocument

<15> On health and general crisis, see Paul Farmer's "Haiti: Unjust Aid Embargo during Health Emergency" at: http://www.haitireborn.org/campaigns/lhl/unjust-aid-embarg-p-farmer.php.

[Isome]

75. 3 of 5

3. The Haitian Population Continues to Support Aristide

In one of the largest protests in recent years, over 100,000 Haitians demonstrated in Port-au-Prince on Feb. 7, demanding that Aristide complete his five year mandate, which ends in 2006. The day also marked the anniversary of the fall of the US-supported Duvalier dictatorship in 1986. <16> The New York Times described a similar demonstration of tens of thousands on Jan. 1 as a "small but enthusiastic crowd". <17>

Numerous parties that oppose Aristide in principle are supporting his five year mandate, describing the possibility of an "opposition" government as potentially horrific. <17.1>

The apparent misdeeds most frequently attached to President Aristide are a case of disputed legislative election results in 2000 (which the opposition used to call for his resignation) and the violent actions of "pro-government gangs" against the opposition. Minimally, it should be pointed out that in what was described as a move to placate the opposition, Aristide immediately called on the relevant legislators to resign and for new elections to be called. <18> This did not stop the US from withholding aid for the next three years (see above). Aristide has in many cases condemned and arrested government supporters who have acted violently against opposition members. <19>

While the media continues to condemn Aristide for transgressions that remain vague, Aristide's Lavalas party has accomplished much in the few years that it has held office. Since Aristide was first elected in 1994, more schools have been opened than were opened between 1804 and 1994. The military has been disbanded, health care systems have been expaned, the minimum wage has been doubled, a major successful AIDS education campaign was conducted, provision of anti-retroviral treatment has begun, and progress has been made in increasing literacy. <20>

These gains, however, have been *in spite* of the dictates of the US. In particular, the US put pressure on Haiti to not increase the minimum wage. <21> The US government and corporate media have also actively disregarded Haiti's achievements in all areas. Documentary filmmaker Kevin Pina quoted a "prominent reporter" whom he spoke with in Haiti: "Hey, I am sorry but they are not interested in positive stories about Lavalas. I wrote it, submitted it and they told me they were not interested." The story in question was about the government's conversion of a Duvalier-era drug dealer's villa into a school for poor children. <22>

<16> See Haiti-Progres' English coverage: http://www.haiti-progres.com/eng02-11.html

<17> Haiti Action has the Times article and photos of the demonstration: http://www.haitiaction.net/News/NYT.html

<17.1> The Jamaica Observer, Feb. 23 2004

<18> http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/columns/html/20040201t040000-0500_55163_obs_the_end_of_nationhood.asp

http://coha.org/NEW_PRESS_RELEASES/New_Press_Releases_2004/04.03_Haiti_Aristide.htm

<19> One example of Aristide condemning violence which has gone unreported: http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/0/0fb8b6892e24769cc1256df600400ee9?OpenDocument

<20> See Haiti Action's "Hidden from the Headlines:" http://www.haitiaction.net/HidFrame.html

Also see a Feb. 11 statement by US Congresswoman Maxine Waters http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/16/1746202
http://www.sfbayview.com/021804/maxinewaterswarns021804.shtml

<21> See the National Labour Committee's "How to Get Rich on 11 Cents an Hour" http://www.nlcnet.org/campaigns/archive/Haiti/0196/index.shtml

Also: http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43a/307.html

<22> http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Feb04/Pina0212.htm

[Isome]

76. 4 of 5

4. Canada Supports US Aspirations for Regime Change in Haiti

The Council on Hemispheric Affairs (COHA) has said that Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Bill Graham is "closely aping" the US line on Haiti, which "seriously distorts reality". COHA criticized also criticized Graham for failing to publically recognize that Haitian opposition "has obdurately refused in any way to join in a process of reconciliation". "The root of the opposition's strategy is the need to create the very chaos that Mr. Graham somehow appears to attribute to Aristide," the COHA statement said. "There is where Mr. Graham's outrage appropriately belongs."

"Bill Graham's recent remarks yesterday on Haiti indicates that he is depending upon U.S. policymakers to orient Canada while not having a clue as to what is really happening there." <23> There is, however, a great deal of evidence that suggests that Graham isn't "clueless", but rather implementing Paul Martin's new policy of "deep integration" with US policy. Since he became PM, Martin has pledged close cooperation with the US, and appointed a Defense Minister who supported the war on Iraq. <24>

Journalist Michel Vastel pointed out Canada's complicity in Washington's plans for regime change in l'Actualite in January. The Canadian government carefully denied it. <25>

<23> http://coha.org/NEW_PRESS_RELEASES/New_Press_Releases_2004/04.10_Canadian_Foreign_Minister_Must_Lead_as_well_as_Follow.htm

<24> http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2003/12/13/286297-cp.html

<25> Canadian Journalist Michel Vastel has said that Canada is complicit in the US plan for "regime change" in Haiti. (Originally appeared in l'Actualite) http://www.radiohaitifocus.com/new36.htm

[Isome]

77. 5 of 5

5. Misrepresentation: Disputed Election is Now Referred to as "Flawed"

The 'platform' for Haiti's opposition and U.S. policy has been the disputed elections of 2000, which saw 7 senate seats (out of a total 7,500 government positions involved in election) challenged over alleged vote-rigging. <26> By all official accounts, this dispute was rectified.

However, the U.S. and the mainstream press have continued to grant the opposition legitimacy on these grounds. This, despite the fact that the opposition is largely responsible for stalling the democratic process: President Aristide has repeatedly asked the opposition to sit down at the table and set a date for elections, and they have repeatedly refused, creating the so-called "political stalemate". <27>

With U.S. support, the opposition has built a disinformation campaign as well as an Aristide "demonization campaign" which has made Aristide appear as the antagonist. <28> A familiar tactic finds opposition-controlled media feeding falsehoods to the international press (primarily AP and Reuters), which are picked by national and regional dailies throughout the world, and then recirculated as 'international' news by the same opposition-owned media in Haiti. Kevin Pina, US Congresswoman Maxine Waters, and others, refer to this as "the disinformation loop". <29> This way a disputed and resolved political problem is able to become "flawed elections" and Aristide can be characterized as a "heavy-handed dictator", while the bleeding of the Haitian economy can be falsely attributed to Aristide's failure as leader. The "flawed elections" are still the official reason for the contined withholding of aid to Haiti. The people most affected by this are the impoverished Haitian majority. <30>

<26> See Randall Robinson's 'global call for action' http://www.blackcommentator.org/71/71_robinson_haiti.html

<27> See John Maxwell's "Imagine! Nigger's Speaking French!!!" at http://www.nathanielturner.com/maxwellonhaiti.htm.

See also http://haitireborn.org, especially their section on the aid issue:

"Investigating the Human Effects of Withheld Humanitarian Aid", an extensive 61 page report: http://www.haitireborn.org/misc/delegation-report-1-11-2003.pdf

See: 'Haiti's Humanitarian crisis, $350 million in aid withheld by EU': http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/0/61aefc65a15e2bc049256da30008a492?OpenDocument

<28> For background see Ben Dupuy's "The Attempted Character Assasination of Aristide": http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Global_Secrets_Lies/Aristide_CharacAssass.html

<29> See Maxine Waters and Randall Robinson at "Haiti Opposition Attempts Naked Power Grab" at http://www.blackcommentator.org/77/77_haiti.html and see Kevin Pina at http://www.blackcommentator.com

<30> See Paul Farmer's "Haiti: Short and Bitter Lives", http://mondediplo.com/2003/07/11farmer

[bigtree]

92. Will folks here actually read these defenses?

Hope so. I've read all of the charges and articles against him.

I don't have a way of knowing what readers feel about Aristide or Haitians, but I trust that no one here would support the reckless imperialism of the Bush cabal's campaign against the elected Aristide government. This is another modern coup from this Bush league.

Why do some spend so much time here trying to deny or mitigate this? What purpose does it serve? Who would the dissenters of Aristide have run the government there? Terrorist Rebels? The old Ton Ton Macoute?

[Tinoire]

78. Wow. You never get tired of pasting the elite's propaganda for them!

ballot boxes were stuffed and tally sheets altered to make it look like a higher turnout

Astounding

[Loonman]

11. Who's going to say The Guardian is a Right Wing newspaper?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1159230,00.html

[democracyindanger]

30. Who's suggesting that it is?

Aristide was, by any standard, a horrible leader. But the fact remains that he was ELECTED.

Ah, democracy. Remember when that was what it meant?

[windansea]

32. see post 31 n/t

[bigtree]

42. The Carter center didn't find any 'organized' effort to disrupt the vote

and cites the refusal of the opposition to participate. It was a sloppy election, but not necessarily a corrupt one.

[htuttle]

46. Did you know US elections don't measure up to Carter Center standards?

Carter was asked about monitoring US elections after 2000 (1/2 in jest), and he said that there are numerous problems with the US election system that would have to be fixed first before they would even consider it (such as partisan election officials, non-uniform ballots, non-uniform poll hours, etc...). Without those changes, they couldn't begin to certify US elections.

They are a tough judge of elections.

[ParanoidPat]

88. This is the WORST that Human Rights Watch found.....

.....in the 'flawed' elections. :evilgrin:

From http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/americas/haiti.html

The most glaringly fraudulent aspect of the deeply flawed May elections was the method used to calculate the results of the first-round Senate races. Bypassing the country's constitution and electoral law, which required first-round winners to have an absolute majority of votes cast, the Provisional Electoral Council (Conseil Electorale Provisoire, CEP) dramatically shrunk the pool of votes counted, eliminating all but those accruing to the four or six leading candidates in each province. As a result, all nineteen Senate seats at issue in the elections were won in the first round, eighteen of them by Fanmi Lavalas. When Léon Manus, the seventy-eight-year-old president of the council, objected to the calculation method, Préval and Aristide pressured him to accept it, making veiled threats that led Manus to flee the country. The government's refusal to reconsider the skewed results led the Electoral Monitoring Mission of the Organization of American States (OAS-EOM) to quit Haiti before the second-round balloting, labeling the elections "fundamentally flawed." Fanmi Lavalas then cemented control of local and national government, ending up with seventy-two of eighty-three seats in the Chamber of Deputies, and two-thirds of some 7,500 local posts.

Yeah, we had to take him out to protect America! :evilfrown:

[seabeyond]

40. how about if we get the whole of the world

to take out bush, cause he too is a horrible leader.........

k, teasing

[Sandpiper]

14. DUers need to read up on Manifest Destiny

And understand that United States has a divine right to remove any foreign leader from power that it might find objectionable. Foreign governments are to govern in the political and economic interests of the United States. Aristide had to go because he wasn't getting the message.

[Tinoire]

18. Quite a few of the Haitians in Florida are the equivalent of anti-Castro,

anti-populist Cubans and anti-populist Venezuelans.

Need you ask to where many of the Duvalierists fled?

The peasants seeking asylum during the anti-Aristide times, no one would take them. They were interned at Guantanamo or returned to Haiti.

Don't equate the two please.

The Haitian people are not interested in the return of those who so ruthlessly exploited them.

[mmm]

35. Now I am confused

(Granted the US had no place removing Aristide from office.)
How was he as a ruler? Good intentions or bad?
Ruled with an iron fist or strove for an enlightened Democracy?

[Tinoire]

74. Excellent at first. Then his hands were tied and not as good as he wanted

Excellent at first but we weren't having any of that. Aristide actually had the audacity to ask the rich and the US owned factories to pay a few pennies in taxes so he could provide a few work benefits & social services in a country where there is no Workmen's comp, no OSHA. That was the first coup in '90 which was backed by the CIA and carried out by School of the Americas-trained Duvalierist officers who were killing people right and left (that's when we had the first exodus of boat people to the US). This was under Bush Sr (hmmmmmmm). Aristide not only had great intentions but he made good on his word. The ONLY people in the US who backed him were the Congressional Black Caucus. Clinton did not really want to deal with Aristide but the CBC forced him to. Negotiations with the terrorist coup leaders took place- the entire time, the US attitude was basically "Aristide, please go away" but the CBC held firm. There were talks at Governors Island (where the coup leaders were treated with all the honor due legitimate leaders) which led to forced negotiations by Carter, Colin Powell and Sam Nunn. The coup leaders in Haiti kept dragging their feet but were eventually told by Powell "Your time us up" & Powell, Carter & Nunn escorted Aristide back to Haiti.

All seems like a great win for democracy until you look at the conditions under which Aristide was retured. He was shackled with every IMF, USAID, NAFTA shackle possible. Taxes could not be raised. The minimum wage could not be raised (I think it was even reduced), utilities & state enterprises had to be privatized, he had to put members of the opposition in his government, tariffs and other controls on imports had to be eliminated. (Do you recognize the stench of the bi-partisan NAFTA here?

Anyway, Aristide went back with his hands to tied that there were promises he had made to the people that he couldn't easily fulfill as tied as his hands were.

So to make a very long post shorter, the intentions were good but the hands were purposefully tied after the first US-supported coup. Despite having his hands tied, Aristide wouldn't quite play ball (even had the audacity recently to demand that France repay Haiti all the money it had extorted from Haiti after the revolution). He recently, again, fought to increase the minimum wage and that is why you, again, see so many business leaders involved in this coup with the same old Macoutes from FRAPH (groupe 184 and Andre Aipad etc).

He didn't rule with an iron fist. Every single anti-Aristide story you hear is emanating from the elite, the business community & the Duvalieristes. They hate him because he stands in their way of exploiting the poor more than they already do. The poor love him. If you want I will publish photos for you of millions of people out in the streets in early Feb showing their support for him.

Every word I have said to you is true.

I lost relatives in each and every one of the coups since 1959. Two of my cousins was gunned down in the streets by FRAPH. 1 perished at the hands of some of the little thugs supporting Aristide (because yes, he does have some riff-raff supporting him but who doesn't). I have no reason to lie to you & swear to you that every word I've written is the way it is. Aristide strove for an enlightened Democracy but there is no room for an enlightened democracy anywhere in the Western Hemisphere and there is certainly no room for an independent Black Republic/Democracy. Towards the end, the poor were very angry at the power games the elite were playing and Aristide either could not or did not restrain certain hooligans from roaming the streets & expressing their dissatisfaction. That is about the only thing I can say he did wrong. I have had conversations with several Haitians in the US whose wisdom & good intentions I trust & they see things the same way. My people are not of the Haitian poor but we have never disrespected them. When the revolution against the French took place, my family was the ONLY one on the island spared and we have always, always dared speak out for the poor who are not animals to be exploited. I have no reason, no desire to lie or to peddle fairy-tales at DU. What I do want for my people is finally, the rightful independence they earned 2 centuries ago and which they still haven't been allowed to experience.

Sorry. I'm at work now and unable to refine this post but that's it in a nutshell. I also apologize for rambling. This, of all issues, gets me very emotional.

Peace to you


Many of your questions are answered in depth int this booklet:
http://www.haitiaction.net/HidFrame.html

Hidden from the Headlines sums up many of the Haitian government’s worthy accomplishments, which the U.S. corporate press effectively whites-out. “More schools were built in Haiti from 1994-2000 than between 1804 and 1994,” the authors point out, “many in rural areas where no schools existed previously.” They also cite progress made in agriculture, public transportation, infrastructure, health care, AIDS prevention and treatment, and defending children’s rights. “Clearly, these programs represent a progressive agenda, initiated under the most trying conditions,” the booklet says.

Chapters covered in the leaflet are:
The U.S. War Against Haiti

Economic Embargo: Targeting the Haitian People

Undermining the Democratically Elected Government

Violent Paramilitary Attacks
A Contra War Against Haiti>

Human Rights:
A Look at the Record>

In this light, it is worth looking closely at some recent human rights cases:
[br />Haiti Today:
A Progressive Social and Economic Agenda>

Resisting Globalization

Education

Defending Children’s Rights

Health Care


====

http://www.coli.uni-sb.de/~pietsch/stop-war/PineSGI4101000224164435010344-100000.html Article I have not had the chance to read but looked good.

[bigtree]

89. Thank you for sharing this

[DenverDem]

25. And the Haitian community in Florida is made up of who?

Hatian expats that opposed Aristide in the first place and want to resume their exploitation of the economy of Haiti, a la Cuban Floridians?

There are a lot of different stories of what the reality is in Haiti and a huge ammount of propaganda.

[sangh0]

66. No, not ex-pats

Former members of Fraph and their families.

[DenverDem]

79. That's who I was getting at

but didn't have the insight into the sects that you obviously do.

Thanks for the good background.

[tkmorris]

26. You used to live in Ft Laud?

That's fine. I live in that area right now. I have to wonder how you managed to miss all of the pro-Aristide sentiment here. It isn't unanimous but if a poll were taken up or down on the man I'm fairly sure he'd win in a landslide.

Right now though most of them are far too worried over what might be happening to the families they have left in Haiti. Communications to many parts of the country are down and a lot of these people will not know whether their relatives are alive or dead for days yet, perhaps weeks.

[Isome]

45. Finally...

Another one who knows!

[el_gato]

27. the pro-coup folks will yell the equivalent of "Saddam Lover!"

but there will be no creation of a democracy in Haiti
by Bush the CIA or any other element of the corporate oligarchy

[DenverDem]

36. It makes you wonder the agenda of the "pro coup" folks.

Say hello to the other guys in the Scaiffe boiler room, boys.

[htuttle]

80. The operative slur for Western Hemisphere issues is 'Castro Lover'

I've seen it in a number of threads already today. Must have been on the cheat sheet.

[Cleita]

29. By your criteria, other countries should be removing Bush,

not Americans who are fed up with him.

[Safi]

34. Read this Counterpunch article

This article explains a lot about the Haiti situation, and sheds some light on the future of Venezuela and Cuba...

http://www.counterpunch.org/williams03012004.html

(snip)
The second instance of media negligence was the near-universal acceptance of the idea in the English-language press that Aristide's government had lost all popular legitimacy due to reported irregularities in the 2000 parliamentary elections. This is an extraordinary leap given the monkey business plaguing U.S. elections of the same year. According to Tom Reeves, the admittedly poorly-attended elections were not the stuff of grand vote larceny. "All sides," he wrote in a very fine article last fall in Dollars and Sense, "concede that Aristide won the presidential ballot with 92 percent of the voteThe sole disagreement is over run-off elections for seven senators from Aristide's part who obtained pluralities but not majorities in the first round. The seven senators eventually resigned, making way for new elections." Nonetheless, these electoral "abuses" were grounds for the Bush administration and pliant international partners in Europe to suspend hundreds of millions of dollars in credit lines and aid to Haiti. Allegations of fraud were used to permanently block the release of $400 million in already-approved loans from the Interamerican Development Bank. The IMF, World Bank, and European Union were also pressed to cut off crucial lines of credit. Meanwhile, Haiti was brutally taken to task for its external financial obligations, emptying its coffers in July 2003 to pay $32 million in debt service arrears. As a final blow, Haiti's ability to conserve any remaining foreign reserves was foreclosed by agreements signed with the U.S. government under President Clinton in 1996. These obliged Haiti to abolish tariffs on U.S. imports in the name of what was curiously called "free trade" but was in fact commodity dumping by U.S. exporters. Under threat of huge fines, Haiti was obliged to accept the import of foodstuffs priced far below the cost of production. (Direct subsidies to U.S. farmers since the mid-1990s have averaged over $30 billion a year.) In a nation where the majority of the population works in agriculture, this all but shut down production in the rice-producing northwest of Haiti, as well as among livestock producers throughout the country. Under these conditions, it stands to reason that no government could dodge the discontent of the population.
(/snip)

-Safi

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

37. People really SHOULD learn a little more about Haiti

before they become apologists for Bush's anti-democratic coups.

[el_gato]

49. here's a little background

For the few of you who don't know Stan Goff was a part of U.S. Special Forces in Haiti and walked away with deep knowledge of how things really work.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43a/184.html
Haiti was the world's first independent Black republic. It won that independence in a bloody revolt of slaves, who prevailed against the three dominant European militaries. This shattered the myth of white supremacy at a time when slave labor was still the economic foundation of every surrounding country, to include the new United States. As punishment, Haiti has been attacked, exploited, and vilified every since.

That vilification is continuing apace. Unfortunately, the US press has been led to uncritically collaborate in the distortion and stereotyping of Haiti. The US foreign policy establishment's agenda for Haiti is largely determined by the orthodoxy of the International Monetary Fund and World Bank. The IMF and World Bank just became the target of massive protests in Washington DC on the 15th and 16th of April. So it may be timely to begin demystifying Haiti's current situation with that in mind.

The International Monetary Find and the World Bank are dominated by the United States, and the dominant stakeholders in those institutions are American finance capitalists. In simple terms, the IMF and the World Bank have much in common with loan sharks. They do not come to countries' rescue. They hold out loans to desperate countries to restructure their debts, and take on more debt-which they can ill afford-in exchange for acceptance of draconian adjustments to economic structures that are beneficial only to a small local elite who are working with transnational corporations (TNCs). These are called structural adjustment programs (SAPs). What's the US objection to Aristide? He might not support this sterling program. The vast majority of Haitians already object to it, but that doesn't fit with Uncle Sam's notion of manageable democracy. Their fear is not that Haiti will fail in the absence of structural adjustment. The fear is that they will progress. That's a very bad example. It's Haiti being independent again, and it won't be tolerated.

[sangh0]

67. Look who is talking about Bush* apologists

WCTV agrees with Bush* about Aristide

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x416082

[bigtree]

38. By that standard Bush would be overthrown

What in that condemnation rises to justification for his armed removal? Repercussions? I didn't hear any of this from Powell. He described a failing administration, not a rouge regime. That is no justification for his overthrow.

[Zynx]

47. I agree. Aristide was a thug.

However, he will likely be replaced with a right-wing thug much like the Duvaliers and their ilk from the Cold War.

[Isome]

50. Why was he a "thug"? A former cleric... a thug?

Where did that term come from? CNN, some wire service? A thug?

[Zynx]

52. Efrain Rios Montt in Guatemala was supposedly a religious man too.

Look him up.

[sangh0]

71. The important word there is "supposedly" Tr y this

Bush* is supposedly a religious man

[el_gato]

51. he wasn't a valued servant of the IMF World Bank scum

but his replacement will be

[Zynx]

53. No doubt, but he was still a thug and a bad leader.

[Isome]

56. I have... and came to the opposite conclusion.

...so have the majority of Haitians in Haiti. But, they didn't acquire US made M-16s from the Dominican like the "opposition" did... so he who has the guns ...

[Zynx]

58. What does that have to do with what I wrote above that?

[On the Road]

60. It's the Same Damn Line for Every Country

"Their leader was no good -- we had to remove him." "We have to teach them to elect good people."

Every damn intervention in Latin America or the Carribean has a similar excuse. William McKinley said the same thing over a hundred years ago. So did Wilson went he sent troops into Haiti in 1917,

The US has had a free hand in the Western Hemisphere. Corruption has always been condoned. So has repression. So has poverty and stagnation. Progressive or socialist governments have consistently have not.

[trumad]

70. Good post ribofunk

This country doesn't exactly have a good track record with regime change be it in South Anerica or the Middle East. There is no doubt in my mind from reports coming in that the U.S has it's fingerprints all over this one. Two regime changes in 2 years by Bush and gang... AND please note that we only go after the push overs.....

[bigtree]

93. And who the hell do these posters expect to run the country?

Terrorist Rebels? Headlines: U.S. installs Rebel leader Guy Phillippe after ousting democratically elected leader Aristide. First we install criminal Chalabi in Iraq, then terrorist Guy Phillippe in Haiti.

[sangh0]

63. Aristide caused Haitian unemployment?

You think they all had jobs before Aristide?

[Tinoire]

82. All I can do is sigh. Thank you Sangh0 n/t

[Darranar]

69. Aristide is the lesser of two evils...

he's far from perfect, but the rebels are far worse.

[ParanoidPat]

84. Well, Now there's a surprise!......

......

NOT!

:evilgrin:

[kerry-is-my-prez]

85. Aristide was elected by the Haitian People & should be VOTED out

not overthrown by a bunch of murderers.

[KG]

87. gee, this isn't too surprising.

haven't seen anyone try to make a aristede a 'hero of the left', but you clearly don't understand the nature of the thugs that started this coup.

[jonnyblitz]

94. "if you are against the invasion, you are for sadam"

same mentality. please.

[KG]

91. so, i guess you'll be backing guy phillipe in this one?

you know, the guy that claims pinochet for a politcal role model.

maybe Jean Tatoune and Louis Jodel Chamblain are more your style of politcal leaders for haiti.

incredible.