A Challenge to Those Applauding Aristide's Ouster

[RaulGroom]

Give me 1000 words on your version of the story. I'll give you 1000 words on my version. Then you get 500 words to rebut what I said. I get 500 words to rebut your rebuttal, and then you get the last word, another 500 word rebuttal.

So the challenge is, my 1500 words against your 2000. About on the level of "knight-odds." Who got game?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. <watching attentively> (nt)

[ArkDem]

2. I've got two words...

who cares?

[RaulGroom]

4. Who cares about...

What?

[stepnw1f]

3. I am not applauding, however...

I would love to see somebody take you up on this one. But you may find more people willing here: http://boston.craigslist.org/pol/

Happy hunting and I applaud you.

[OneBlueSky]

5. then there are those of us who don't know enough about Haiti . . .

to take a firm position one way or the other . . . my only criteria at this point has to be "If Bush is for it, it's probably not good." . . .

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[John BigBootay]

10. US backed rebels a foregone conclusion?

I'm not willing to debate you on this whole matter because I am not an authority on Haiti. I am niether for nor against JBA's ouster at this point for lack of credible knowledge and facts.

It seems here on DU it is a foregone conclusion that this latest rebel uprising was engineered by Bush and the CIA with the help of France and Canada.

More than ANY OTHER elelment of this story, THIS allegation needs inspection and evidence.

Show me the irrefutable evidence of this and you will go a long way toward convincing me.

[RaulGroom]

11. OK, but that's not what this thread is

This thread is a challenge for the folks who do know something about this. Perhaps they might pick the point you've chosen as a point of contention, perhaps not. What I'm saying is simply that when I read this whole situation being debated on this board in three-paragraph bursts followed by snarky one-liners, I can feel myself actually getting stupider. I thought it might be nice to have some real arguments out there, mine being one, the pro-opposition position being the other.

However, the real point of the thread is turning out to be that none of these folks think very much of their positions, because no one is turning up to argue with me.

Perhaps they simply fear the legendary dagger-like prose of Raul Groom.

:D

[John BigBootay]

14. Hey, I fear your prose---

But we don't seem to have any takers on your terms.

I'm still interested in that point I mentioned above. Did Bush and the CIA engineer this uprising as EVERYONE here seems to believe?

[RaulGroom]

17. If anyone bites, I'll go into more detail in my opening statement

But the short answer is yes. I've been following Haiti for years, and the situation is very complex. 99% of posters here don't understand what's going on; their thinking is too coarse because they lack a lot of key background information. That's true of posters on both sides, not just the Bush apologists.

The main piece of evidence you can just see with the naked eye is that the rebels are mainly foreign mercenaries coming over from the DR, and they are carrying M-16's. It's the classic CIA Latin American coup model. Train a mercenary force by recruiting people from desperate poverty and putting them through a harsh psychological training program to turn them into crazed killers. Then turn them loose on the countryside while calling on the leader to step down. Then send a small security force to kidnap the leader and spirit him away.

We did the same thing in Nicaragua, but it caused a scandal because after Congress cut off the money, Reagan used profits from black market arms sales and a cocaine protection racket to keep the war going.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

35. and bushco has been trying the same damn thing in Venezuela for 3 1/2 yrs

Tiniore posted this on another thread and it should be posted here too!...hope it's okay with Tiniore:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1183183

the tragedy Haiti ...chomsky

"Haiti was more than the New World's second oldest republic," anthropologist Ira Lowenthal observed, "more than even the first black republic of the modern world. Haiti was the first free nation of free men to arise within, and in resistance to, the emerging constellation of Western European empire." The interaction of the New World's two oldest republics for 200 years again illustrates the persistence of basic themes of policy, their institutional roots and cultural concomitants.

Politics, not Principle"

A month later, a gang of killers attacked Aristide's church as he was saying mass, leaving at least 13 dead and 77 wounded. Aristide fled underground. In yet another coup, Duvalierist General Prosper Avril arrested Namphy and expelled him. The Haitian head of Aristide's Salesian order authorized him to return to his church, but not for long. To the dismay of the conservative Church hierarchy, Aristide continued to call for freedom and an end to terror. He was duly ordered by his superiors in Rome to leave the country. Popular protests blocked his departure, and he went into hiding. At the last minute, Aristide decided to take part in the December 1990 elections. In a stunning upset, he won 67 percent of the vote, defeating the US candidate, former World Bank official Marc Bazin, who came in second with 14 percent. The courageous liberation theologist, committed to "the preferential option for the poor" of the Latin American bishops, took office in February as the first democratically elected President in Haiti's history -- briefly; he was overthrown by a military coup on September 30.

"Under Aristide, for the first time in the republic's tortured history, Haiti seemed to be on the verge of tearing free from the fabric of despotism and tyranny which had smothered all previous attempts at democratic expression and self-determination," the Washington Council on Hemispheric Affairs observed in a post-coup review. His victory "represented more than a decade of civic engagement and education on his part," spearheaded by local activists of the Church, small grassroots-based communities, and other popular organizations that formed the basis of the Lavalas ("flood") movement that swept him into power, "a textbook example of participatory, `bottom-up' and democratic political development." With this popular base, his government was committed to "the empowerment of the poor," a "populist model" with international implications that frightened Washington, whose model of "democracy" does not entertain popular movements committed to "social and economic justice, popular political participation and openness in all governmental affairs" rather than "the international market or some other current shibboleth." Furthermore, Aristide's balancing of the budget and "trimming of a bloated bureaucracy" led to a "stunning success" that made White House planners "extremely uncomfortable": he secured over half a billion dollars in aid from the international lending community, very little of it from the US, indicating "that Haiti was slipping out of Washington's financial orbit" and "demonstrating a degree of sovereignty in its political affairs." A rotten apple was in the making.

Washington was definitely not pleased. With its ally Duvalier gone, the US had in mind the usual form of democracy committed to the preferential option for the rich, particularly US investors. To facilitate this outcome, the bipartisan National Endowment for Democracy (NED) directed its "democracy building" grants to the Haitian International Institute for Research and Development (IHRED) and two conservative unions. IHRED was associated with Bazin and other political figures with little popular base beyond the NED, which portrayed them as the democratic movement. The State Department approached AIFLD, the AFL-CIO affiliate with a notorious record of anti-labor activities in the Third World, to join its efforts in Haiti "because of the presence of radical labor unions and the high risk that other unions may become radicalized." AIFLD joined in, expanding the support it had given from 1984 to a union group run in part by Duvalier's security police. In preparation for the elections, NED extended its support to several other organizations, among them a human rights organization headed by Jean-Jacques Honorat, former Minister of Tourism under Duvalier and later an opponent of his regime. By way of the right wing Puebla Institute, NED also provided pre-election funding to Radio Soleil, which had been anti-Duvalier but shifted well to the right under the influence of the conservative Catholic hierarchy.

Following Aristide's victory, US funding for political activities sharply increased, mainly through USAID. According to Kenneth Roth, deputy director of Human Rights Watch, the aid was intended to strengthen conservative groups that could "act as an institutional check on Aristide," in an effort to "move the country in a rightward direction." After Aristide was overthrown and the elite returned to power, Honorat became de facto Prime Minister under the military regime. The popular organizations that supported Aristide were violently suppressed, while those backed by NED and AID were spared.

[Rainbowreflect]

9. I'm with you. I want to understand Haiti better and if bush does it

it must be bad.
No really. I have a problem if our military was sent into another country to remove their leader, good, bad or ugly.

[Oilwellian]

7. This should be interesting

I'll check back later with great anticipation. :D

[RaulGroom]

8. Actually, I should have been clearer

Before you sit down to write your 1000 words, let me know you plan to participate. If no one takes the challenge in the next hour I'm going to assume you all realize you have no idea what you're talking about.

[sangh0]

12. You might want to take a look at

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=416082&mesg_id=416082&page=

[RaulGroom]

13. I'm a little confused

All I see there is WCV tearing down Kerry. As they say in basketball, I can get that shot anytime I want it. Was that the right link?

[sangh0]

18. You're missing the part

where WCTV criticizes Kerry for wanting to keep Aristide in power

[Tinoire]

15. Well, you could warm up in this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1181265

I'm at work now otherwise I'd rip in there with a fire extinguisher ;)

You go boy! :thumbsup:

Thank you.

You'll find very few takers on your challenge because most people at DU are, well you know, smart. And some of the few others would be too afraid of exposing themselves.

[RaulGroom]

19. Thanks Tinoire

I may have to head in there. I'm at work myself, but I'm sitting on hold with tech departments trying to get my damn backup server working.

[blindpig]

16. so where's the takers?

I'd put money on this fight, and I don't gamble. Must mean something....

[RaulGroom]

20. OK, I'm going home

I guess I'll post my version of the story on the front page of DU at the end of the week. The apologists can then rend their clothes and tear their flesh at having missed the opportunity to get a word in.

[Tinoire]

21. Big Kick. I want the rejoicing forces to see this challenge. n/t

:kick:

[RaulGroom]

22. And a kick of my own because I'm an optimist

Or is that masochist?

[Tinoire]

23. Masochist but I am going to start sending certain people your way

$50 bucks say they don't dare show up!

[Darranar]

24. Strange...

that you've gotten no response...

[RaulGroom]

25. Not that strange

Coarse propaganda doesn't lend itself to this format. That's why I knew I could give such a big advantage (first word, last word) and still would be in no danger of losing the argument. Just as a petty thug chooses a drive-by shooting rather than a one-on-one fistfight, a propagandist won't engage his opponent's arguments on any legitimate proving ground.

[Tinoire]

26. What?! None of them have shown up?!

Jeez. I may have to PM you the names of a few to look for. One is definitely a professional whose Duvalierist language just rolls off the tongue. I found one of their boards last night. They're out in force on the internet. Even passing around a letter from Duvalier saying he would like to return to Haiti and finish his "term" (his presidential term was for life for those who don't know- at the age of 19 he inherited the presidency from his father and was, like his father, propped up by various US administrations). When the Haitian people could take it no more, they chased him out in 1986

Not a peep about Human Rights abuses during those reigns. Not a peep about entire families disappearing in the night. The Duvalier's reign of terror lasted 30 years.

===

Will Jean-Claude Duvalier Return to Haiti?

Former dictator Jean-Claude Duvalier will soon be returning to Haiti and will be posing his candidacy in upcoming presidential elections, according to several people at a meeting of Duvalierists held in Brooklyn on Sep. 10. If he doesn't take power through elections, he will take it by other means, some participants said. About 100 partisans of the former "President for Life" gathered at the Tropical Reflections night club at 4501 Glenwood Road, where they heard a panel of speakers extol the glories, both political and economic, of the Duvalier years and the evils of the Lavalas and former President Jean-Bertrand Aristide.

Jean-Claude "Baby Doc" Duvalier succeeded his father François (or "Papa Doc") as "President for Life" of Haiti in 1971. Both regimes jailed and killed opposition figures, muzzled the press, and terrorized the Haitian people through the infamous "Tonton Macoutes," a nationwide network of thugs and killers. Jean-Claude and his cronies also financed lavish lifestyles of sports cars, motorcycles, and villas by milking bribes from visiting and resident businessmen and skimming millions from incoming foreign aid packages, a practice which finally alienated Washington, the regime's long-term ally. With U.S. acquiescence and Vatican direction, a popular uprising in Feb. 1986 toppled Jean-Claude, who was trundled off to Paris in a U.S. C-130 military transport packed to the gills with all the loot that "Baby Doc" and his trophy wife Michelle Bennett could lay their hands on in the regime's final hectic days. The phlegmatic ex-dictator has lived in France ever since, making periodic telephone statements to meetings of his nostalgic supporters scattered in all corners of the Haitian diaspora.

<snip>

"Duvalier or death!" bellowed Mirabeau Petit-Homme, one of the many "heavy macoutes" who was in the room for the occasion. He was the right hand man of Roger Lafontant, the former head of the Tonton Macoutes, with whom he attempted a coup d'état in Jan. 1991 and was jailed. Petit-Homme escaped from prison during the Sep. 1991 coup and is now living, with impunity, in Brooklyn.

<snip>

In any event, as Washington's pressure on the Haitian government mounts in the weeks to come, it is likely that the Duvalierists and FRAPHists will clamor in the diaspora. Do they really want to participate in presidential elections? By their conduct and their declarations, the answer is clearly no. Their results would surely be as dismal as that of their brethren in the neo-Duvalierist front called the Patriotic Movement to Save the Nation (MPSN) in last May's election.

Their real goal seems rather to capitalize on the destabilization campaign now being deployed against Haiti so as to seize the opportunity to have Duvalier or a Duvalierist "sitting in the presidential chair," even if by other than democratic means.

http://www.haitisurf.com/babydocwill.shtml

Duvalier and the billions he stole were graciously, willingly. lovingly given asylum by the French government. Neither the billions nor Duvalier were ever returned to Haiti, despite numerous requests for monetary restitution and for Duvalier to face judgement for his crimes of terror against the Haitian people.

The billions are all gone now. France had better not think this is a good time to return him.
===

Ex-Haitian President Jean-Claude Duvalier goes on TV to `explain myself’

December 17th, 2002

PARIS - Jean-Claude ’’Baby Doc’’ Duvalier, the former President of Haiti who has lived in exile in France since 1986, has granted his first television interview to an American journalist in 15 years.

The interview, with WFOR-CBS4 investigative reporter Michele Gillen, will be aired tonight on CBS 4 at 6 and 11 p.m.


<snip>

During the 2 ½-hour interview in a Paris hotel, Duvalier said he now hears the cries of his people, who ``are suffering a lot. It is not bearable. It is revolting.’’

<snip>

Q: Do you want to return to Haiti?

A: It is my firm intention as soon as conditions allow.

Q: Why do you want to go back and what do you want to do?

A: In spite of all these years that have elapsed since I was in Haiti, I am still very touched by that country. I suffer from being away as well as from seeing the misery under which the Haitian population has to live. That is why it is my duty to go back to the country and participate in the rebuilding of my country.


<snip>

http://www.haiti-news.com/article.php3?id_article=26
http://www.haitisurf.com/jeanclaudeint.shtml

:puke:

[RaulGroom]

27. Tinoire, I got a question for you

I'm in a little fight with my wife Sophia right now over this whole Haiti thing. She apparently participated in a letter-writing campaign on behalf of a woman claiming that she was beaten by Aristide's security forces to the point where she had a miscarriage. So she's in my face a little bit asking me "how can you support this guy?" and calling him a thug and all the rest. She's a liberal Democrat, but she obviously is very sensitive to human rights abuses (as we all are) and this is a major sticking point for her.

Now, Aristide never really had much control over the security apparatus, so it doesn't necessarily surprise me that there would be atrocities committed under Aristide, who I maintain is a solid leader and a fundamentally good person even if this isn't a fabrication.

However, this story (and the timing of its emergence late last year) make me wonder whether even even happened. Have you heard anything about this incident? Is it Duvalierist propaganda?

[wjittermoss]

28. Are we holding Bush responsible for police brutality in this country?

I rest my case.

[Isome]

34. Simple and irrefutable!

Thanks!

[Suspicious]

29. I find it highly questionable

that the police in Haiti seemed to run the minute the "rebels" showed up, town by town, but now that the coup d'etat is complete, the police have joined forces with them. This is something your wife might want to consider.

I will dig around after work tonight - I know I've read articles indicating that at least some of the Haitian national police were, in fact, helping the "rebels".

This is classic CIA. Convert and train people on the opposition side to do nasty things to the population; turn the population against intended victim (in this case, Aristide and the Lavalas party), and the press helps to demonize by disseminating information which, on the surface looks like one thing, but is in fact something altogether different.

[RaulGroom]

30. I agree, but

That's not quite the slam dunk it would be if the story were simply a fabrication. That's why I'm interested in whether this actually happened. Unfortunately I don't have any more information on it, though I am looking.

[Suspicious]

37. I see...

I went back and re-read your post, and I realized you were trying to track down specific information.

Then I went back through the thread, read your post #17, and I realized I was just preaching to the choir, anyway! :)

[Tinoire]

31. I talked to my uncle about this (he was in Haiti until about 2 months ago)

I talked to my uncle about these types of stories (he was in Haiti until about 2 months ago) and what he told me is:

1. Aristide could not/did not control all the angry young men roaming the streets who supported him and some of them attacked members of the more privileged class but he thinks these cases are being exaggerated and twisted

2. FRAPH people posing as Aristide supporters committed a lot of atrocities to discredit Aristide and his supporters

There is a lot of lawlessness in Haiti and a lot of anger. I don't think anyone can control the situation anymore and all of the poor majority are certainly not angels. It would be unrealistic to expect them all to be.

I grew up with the elite in Haiti and I can understand the anger of the poor who, until Aristide, had no chance of getting an education while the elite sent their children abroad to the best, and I mean best schools. There's something a little wrong with a Petionville elite eating foie gras, wearing French designer clothes & Bulgari jewelry when the people are starving.

I don't condone what the angrier, more lawless people are doing but the majority and should not be treated like animals by a ruling/business 6% that has no interest in seeing their cushy way of life changed.

Multimillion dollar homes while the majority on whose back the country is built live in hovels without running water. My grand-father, of whom I am NOT proud, had one of those homes. For fear that a poor person might break in and steal one of your mangoes, huge stone walls are erected around lavish doberman-protected homes and broken glass placed atop. Mind you, this was in the 70s before all this lawlessness began. But back to not being proud, he had 2 convertible Mustangs (in different colors), 2 Peugot 504s, and a top of the line BMW. Also a chauffer. All this for 1 man in a country where most people have to fetch potable water from miles away with jugs on their head. And despite this wealth, quibbling with the poor over a few pennies for their slave wages. At the time, $20 US dollars got you a live-in maid and the rich were screaming that $20 was high-way robbery.

I am not excusing the anger or the violence but imagine I would have been angry too. I don't say this lightly. I lost 3 relatives in the regime changes over the last decade and my heart grieves for them because they were innocent young people who were not out to abuse the poor but things have to be put in context. The poor cannot go on subsidizing the life-styles of the rich. The rich and the business class want NO democratic elections in Haiti.

Aristide won what was arguably the first "real" elections Haiti ever had. All this violence now is a power struggle between the rich minority and the poor majority.

In all good conscience, I have to side with the poor. I find their anger, while vindictive, understandable.


To your original question, I have a very hard time believing though that Aristide's security forces beat a pregnant woman up. That seems like convenient propaganda.


Le yo vle touye yon chen, yo di’l fou.

(When they want to kill a dog, they say it’s crazy.)

---Haitian Proverb

Peace and I hope you get takers!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

39. You really seem to know your stuff.

I for one I'm glad you're here to let people know what's really going on. Should I hold my breath as well? Nah!

[Aidoneus]

42. that was NOT a thousand words, Tinoire

Try harder next time.. sheesh.

Um.. Most interesting, as we can come to expect of you here.. thanks for sharing. :hi:

Funny how Raul has no takers.

[Isome]

33. It's possible... entirely possible...

that the story is in the same genre as the Kuwaiti babies being snatched out of their incubators by invading Iraqis.

I'm surprised the coup celebrants weren't trained enough to take you up on your challenge. It seems 'media-inspired one-liners' is all they have in their arsenal.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

40. Babies and incubators are so last century.

Giant meat grinders are the buzz.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

32. Interesting-None of the Coup Defenders have shown up

:shrug:

[Beetwasher]

36. LOL! Good Luck Getting Those Cowards To Show Up!

Before the Iraq war started, I made similar posts and challenges to debate that fiasco and they NEVER show up. They only post hit and run in other threads.

After the war started and when every prediction I (and most on DU) made came true, I once again challenged all the apologists to come forward to defend their stance and/or admit they were wrong or explain their position in light of the reality. The sound of crickets chirping was palpable.

COWARDS!!!

[Oilwellian]

38. My goodness...

I'm so glad I didn't hold my breath! Could the deafening silence be due to at least 3 Congress persons, 1 lawyer, 1 former magazine editor, a former head of state and his wife, and a senator (Dodd, as of yesterday) who are all telling the same story?. Not including the eyewitness reports in the print media. (thank you for keeping count Htuttle.)

[RaulGroom]

41. Still waiting, you cowards

Anyway, soon I'll have my say. Will you have yours?

[tom_paine]

43. I'm with you Raul. And waiting, too!

I would love to hear this debate because I am somehwta on the fence but leaning towards your and Tinoire's take on it.

I have no doubt some bad things were done by Aristide supporters (that's human nature in impoverished conditions, I'm afraid) but how much was done by Duvalierist Busheviks to frame Arsitide?

I'm guessing that fear of


is keeping them away.

PM me please if someone decides to take you up on it.