Confusion re: Aristide

[ewagner]

I've seen Rummy's response (non-response) I've seen Powell's (sort of) response and I've heard Maxine Waters, Charlie Rangel, and Aristide's lawyer. I've also observed with interest the attempts of the media to bend over backwards to accept the "official line" on what really happened with Aristide last night.

After all this, I assume the American public is confused and will make their decision on who to believe strictly along party lines.

The truth, I suspect, is somewhere in the middle.

There is nothing in either Powell or Rummy's spin that would preclude Aristide being made "an offer he couldn't refuse." That's what I think happened. I think he was escorted aboard that military plane by military personnel as part of the "offer" and this woudl allow Powell to say that they "took steps to protect Aristide's life."

Hence, Powell is telling as much truth as he is capable but from the perspective of Aristide, it was a coup pure and simple.

Anxious to hear comments.

[DuctapeFatwa]

1. Charles Rangel, Maxine Waters, Randall Robinson have all talked to him

All have recounted their conversations with him on CNN.

Their accounts are consistent with that of the palace caretaker, who was interviewed yesterday by AFP.

Someone slipped him a cell phone at some point. Rangel gave CNN a number. It is unlikely that he still has the cell phone.

[Darranar]

7. What state is he in now?

There seems to be some disagreement on the matter.

Where is he? Is he imprisoned?

Edited to clarify

[muriel_volestrangler]

8. Central African Republic

is the only place I've heard mentioned. He seems yo be under something like house arrest - he's made a few phone calls, but people don't seem able to get through to him.

[Darranar]

10. I think his cell phone was taken away...

Waters said that the line suddenly went dead, and we haven't heard any more since then, as far as I can tell.

Thanks for the info!

[Darranar]

12. Well, apparentally not...

if he can contact CNN, he still has his cellphone.

[Tinoire]

13. I think cell phones are being smuggled in to him

Just a wild hunch knowing how Creoles and Africans do things.

[Darranar]

14. I think they have him guarded well...

didn't hear it on CNN, don't know exactly what he said, but reports seem to vary on his exact situation.

Personally, it seems illogical to me that they'd just let him go free after going through all this trouble to sponsor a coup.

So, they either missed his cellphone (a situation that will likely be remedied with this all over the media now) and/or there are some clever and brave people over there smuggling him cellphones.

Unfortunately, I think he's going to be silenced soon. They may have messed up, but they learn from their mistakes.

[DenverDem]

2. Another Hegellian construct.

We send in black ops and equipment to the "rebels" and destabilize the country to the point that we come in "to save the day" by allowing the democratically elected president to "resign" (or get his brains splattered all over his office) and take him into "protective custody" and haul him off to a "neutral site" (abjectly poor African country we pay off to hold him in "protective custody") until the sheeple's short attention span is drawn to American Idol finals or whatever, at which point he has a "heart attack".

Create the problem, offer the self serving solution, "solve" the problem. Deny complicity. Use state media to cover.

Rinse, repeat.

[ewagner]

3. That's pretty close..and also....

an interesting comment made by Powell during his denial:

He said that the State Department had telephone conversations all the time that Aristide was in the air to try to find a country to grant him asylum.

That squares pretty good with the accounts by Waters, Rangel, and Robinson, that Aristide had no clue where he was or where he was going. You'd think if he left of his own free will, this kind of arrangement would have been made first.

Comments?

[rustydog]

17. If America is so concerned for his safety,

why wasn't he brought to the open arms of Lady liberty?
Why not have him brought to America?
If we truly are only helping him and his country.

[plcdude]

5. yup

I think you hit it right on the head.

[Imajika]

4. I would assume...

"After all this, I assume the American public is confused and will make their decision on who to believe strictly along party lines."

...the overwhelming, vast majority of the American public couldn't care less about Haiti or what happened to Aristide.

What the American people don't want is boatloads of Haitian refugees coming to the US, any American service people getting killed doing anything in Haiti, or any sizable amount of money being spent on Haitian reconstruction.

Basically, I doubt the majority of Americans care about this at all. I rather suspect most Americans generally view Haiti as a lost cause and are not eager to do anything there.

If American troops start dying in Haiti, Bush could be vulnerable. Otherwise, I doubt if it will be much of an issue.

Imajika

[DuctapeFatwa]

6. I wouldn't count on the party lines. Remember, lots of folks don't like

bush, but don't really object to US policies. That's one of the reasons Kerry and Edwards are so popular.

They are both much more attractive figures, better speakers, and Kerry especially has a knack for saying things in a nicer way.

Don't underestimate that as a talent. Remember those studies where they sent people into long supermarket lines, and had them ask people who had been waiting a while, "Could I get in front of you? I want to buy these things."

If the person spoke politely, they were almost always let in.

If they spoke in an abrupt or angry manner, people refused.

The point of the study was it's not so much WHAT you say, as HOW you say it that people respond to.

[htuttle]

11. Indeed...the problem that people are having with Bush...

...is not that he is an imperialist. We've had plenty of those in US history on both sides of the aisle. That's not new. I'm trying to think of a US president in my lifetime who wasn't an imperialist, and I'm not sure I'd be willing to put forward any of them.

Even Carter (who was probably the least imperialistic) had a national security staff that got the Mujahadeen going in Afghanistan, among other things (read Brzezinski's Grand Chessboard...I was personally very disapointed to learn this).

No, the problem people are having with Bush is that he's an INCOMPETENT imperialist. Nothing he does works out in the end. (Plus, his 'regular guy' schtick is getting really old. It only works when things are going well -- when things aren't, it rings very hollow).

[KG]

16. thank you, DuctapeFatwa and htuttle..

:thumbsup:

you guys know what time it is. word.

[Bandit]

9. "it was a coup pure and simple." ~ Well duhhh

Unless he was voted out by ballot it is a coup. Not sure how much involvement the US had but we sure didn't help secure Democracy. We allowed if not aided a Coup D'Tat. Democracy was not served well by America. We could do so much better. If we truly believe in Democracy we should re-install Aristide and ask for a recall election to occur. The reason we won't do this is Aristide would not be recalled and the "rebels" would never win an election. Aristide just doesn't dance to our tune.

[htuttle]

15. The truth is not as you suspected, somewhere in the middle

Waters was right.

Aristide was finally on the phone with CNN
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x393064

He says he was kidnapped. More in thread.