how is drafting innocent civilians to die (with statistical certainty)

[Sperk]

(by the ten thousands) into a known lie and unwinnable war (Vietnam) different than letting 3000 civilians die on 9/11? I'm not saying that proves LIHOP but, doesn't it go a long way in disputing the idea that "they would never let thousands of their own countrymen and women die"? I don't see the difference.

Causing thousands of civilians to die for a secret agenda is causing thousands of civilians (the fact that they were in the armed services doesn't matter-they were drafted) to die for a secret agenda.

agree-disagree?

[Odallas]

1. There is no difference

from the perspective of the power-elite. The life of an underclass member is a resource, like any qualities a UC member may posses, to be exploited when and where needed. No tears are shed.

[bryant69]

2. I guess if you grant the premise

It makes sesnse. But I don't necessarily grant the premise, and I've studied Vietnam and the decisions that lead us into that war at some length.

You seem to postulate that Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon as well as their advisors knew that the war was pointless. I don't think they did. I think they thought they could win, and that it was important for them to win that war. Now that we've defeated Communism it's easy enough for us to forget that it was a real menace.

Even when you get down to Nixon; yeah at that point he probably knew we couldn't win. But leaving with honor (whatever he thought that meant) was preferable to showing weakness to the Communists.

So I think the decisions that got us into Vietnam and kept us there were completely wrong, but I don't think they were made maliciously or selfishly as you seem to argue.

But, don't worry, I'm sure that many will agree with you.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Sperk]

3. The Gulf of Tolken insident was a lie......they did not

make their case for the war honestly to the American people...they had to trick them into it. Same as 9/11. Just because someone thinks the ends justify the means or conned themseves into thinking that the greater good will be served, does not mean that they're not acting maliciously or selfishly. If you lie to bring the masses to war...your ARE acting maliciously.

[bryant69]

4. Nope

Actually whether or not the Gulf of Tonkin was a deliberate deception is still debated, and I have yet to be convinced. IF you were in Johnson's office and have proof that it was a lie, well present it; otherwise, I'll suggest that you don't expect me to change my opinions based on garden variety conspiracy theories.

It is nice that the best arguments for this theory that President Bush caused September 11th do not involve facts or data or clues, but sarcasm. "Yeah, like President Bush wouldn't kill thousands to get his way."

[Sperk]

5. Senator Byrd stated on the floor of the senate that it never happened

so there.