good christians/bad christians

[skjpm]

Everything Christian, including me, is not evil. For the purposes of clarity, I thought I would list what I think are "good" Christians and "bad" Christians so that we can stop with the idea that all Christians are like Jerry Falwell and that some really do work for the betterment of mankind. Since this political season will include discussions of religion, I offer these lists for comparison:

Good Christians

Jimmy Carter
Bono
Hilary Clinton
C. S. Lewis
Martin Luther King
Martin Luther
Bruce Cockburn
J. R. R. Tolkien
Bishop John Spong
Archbishop Desmond Tutu
Mother Teresa
Rosa Parks
John Polkinghorne
Peter Gomes

Bad Christians

Jerry Falwell
Tim Lahaye
Pat Robertson
George Bush
William Bennett
John Ashcroft
Oliver North


Which list would you most likely picture at the last supper?

[PVnRT]

1. I don't think Tolkein was a Christian, was he?

I thought that Lewis wrote his books about God to try to convince him to believe.

[bhunt70]

6. yes, he was.

[muriel_volestrangler]

10. Tolkien was definitely Christian

but he didn't put so much of his religious thought into Lord of the Rings. If you read the Silmarillion (and some of the appendices of LOTR) you see a lot more stuff that fits in with Christianity - a supreme God, and a fallen 'angel' who becomes the incarnation of evil, for instance.

[DieboldMustDie]

12. Yes he was...

Catholic specifically.   For what it's worth, he was also one of the translators of The Jerusalem Bible.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

32. Bad Christians don't consider Catholics Christian

we're all going to hell, don't ya know! :crazy:

[DenverDem]

2. Can we drop the wedge issue and move on to something important.

The Christian thing to do would be to unite behind getting the evil sinners and theives in the temple out of the White House.

[skjpm]

4. I'm a Democrat because I'm a Christian

I believe that Jesus wants universal health care, fair wages, and equal rights for all, including gays. So it may be a wedge issue, but for all those who despise Christians, remember there are some of us who are here because of our faith. Don't try to push us out simply because the only people they think are Christians are on the 2nd list.

[DenverDem]

11. Then work to acheive Jesus' goals

and stop antagonizing people by whining about being persecuted. People despise Christians because they are obnoxious about it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

45. People despise atheists

Because they are obnoxious about it.

See how it is to have the concept flipped around?

[LeahMira]

15. But silence gives consent...

Don't try to push us out simply because the only people they think are Christians are on the 2nd list.


You are right. The "squeaky wheels" among Christians are the ones that get attention and create the controversy. In times past, those "squeaky wheels" were men and women like Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. or Rosa Parks... men and women who were trying to make the world a more just and respect-filled place for everyone. These days, though, the "squeaky wheels" are those who encourage their followers to give up on this world and the possibility of transformation, to distance themselves from humanity, and to focus entirely on the afterlife.

I don't think, though, that non-Christians imagine all Christians to be of the Falwell persuasion. I do think that we wonder sometimes why there are, for instance, no letters to the editor from Christian ministers in the local community taking these "other" Christians to task. Their silence is pretty deafening.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

3. Good christians

Don't mix their religion and politics.

Good DUers do the same.

[skjpm]

5. ummm....Martin Luther King, John Wesley, William Wilberforce

Harriet Tubman, Jimmy Carter, I think mixed politics with religion. And that's a good thing. I fully intend to mix my politics with my religion as well.

[H2O Man]

9. John Brown

He was a good Christian.

[Az]

7. And how exactly

Do you leave your religion outside the voting booth?

Yes its uncomfortable. But good people don't discuss politics or religion. Religion and politics are entwined. They flow from one another and back into one another. For most of our history they were one and the same. Its uncomfortable but some people's beliefs are tied into how and why they vote. We ignore this at our a peril.

We do have to work on the civillity quotient though. There are people on both sides of the equation ready to sound the alarm at the slightest hint of anger.

The Religious Right has a serious grasp on the name Jesus and they do not seem to be the least bit interested in not using his name in the coming election. Religion is going to be a factor. We best get to talking about it so we can resolve our issues here first and then procede to face them down together as friends. But we have to talk first.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

29. My most cherished amendment

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

I don't feel religion has any business in politics and should be left inside the churches. That's just how I feel.

[Az]

34. My fave too

But the fact is you cannot remove the religion from the voter. The 1st ammendment protects our rights to have and practice our religions how we see fit. Untouched by government support or guidance as to which particular religion we follow. However this does not mean that our religious beliefs do not follow us into the voting booth. A persons religious views are inseperable from their political views. They guide them in how they see the universe around them. Its the same universe inside the booth.

[Muddleoftheroad]

46. And you are free to do so

And I am free to do otherwise.

[jonnyblitz]

8. I would put Mother Theresa in the same catogory with the other

right wingers. I read a book/expose on her that wasnt too flattering. I know this is a taboo subject and expect to get seriously flamed but OH WELL...

[skjpm]

13. Madeline L'Engle, George Macdonald, T-Bone Burnett

as I sit here thinking of more good Christians. . .And I don't feel persecuted, and I don't feel I'm whining. I'm pointing out that some people have an unnecessary negative knee-jerk reaction to anything Christian without thinking about it.

[Warpy]

14. No flames from me

She kept the dying housed and bathed, but wouldn't give people wracked with pain even an aspirin. She wanted them to wring the last bit of misery out of death, apparently, much like Gibson's movie does.

[outinforce]

16. Why?

Just curious...why do you put the woman who cared for the people of the lowest social caste in Calcutta into the same category as John Ashcroft and *?

[Az]

19. There is reason

It seems that her idea of how to minister to the poor may have been shaded by her beliefs. This is a volital subject because the reputation she has seems so spotless while the reality may have been something else.

There is evidence that she did many things that some would not consider beneficial to the poor. This is a list of the claims.

She collected huge quantities of money in the name of the poor and yet the treasurers for the funds claim that the money never went to the poor. They say it went to the Catholic Church and that Teresa insisted that none of it actually go to alleviating the conditions the poor lived in. Her claim was that they suffered like Jesus on the cross as an example to the rest of the world.

She refused to allow any under her charge to have access to medicine. Her order would tend to them. But nothing was allowed that might alleviate their suffering. Again it seems it was her belief that people suffer for a reason. She has said that the suffering was just a way of being closer to Jesus. These practices were followed despite the fact that when she wound up having medical issues she was whisked off via jet to the best hospital money could buy.

She fought strenuously against one of the things that could actually have helped the poverty stricken. Birth control. As part of her Catholic heritage she fought to keep birth control out of any means of dealing with crushing poverty.

There are numerous other reasons but these are key to why some do not consider her to be the paragon others loft her to. Her beliefs seem to be tied into the notion that as she claimed the poor are here to suffer for the rest of us. Her calling was to be there with them as they suffered. Not to alleviate that suffering.

[iverglas]

23. numerous reasons indeed

I'm sure most people could agree on a list of "good christians", but the Teresa person won't be on mine and won't be on a lot of other people's. And the reason why she is on some people's lists -- like the so-called Feminists for Life's -- isn't always because she was a saint, it's because she shared and furthered their political agenda.

I've got some qualms about Bishop Tutu as well. I found him arrogantly sexist when I heard him speak, and his position on gay clergy hasn't exactly been progressive.

Now don't get me started on Hilary Clinton. ;)

.

[muriel_volestrangler]

30. Tutu seems progressive on gay clergy now

His comments contrasted with those of Archbishop Desmond Tutu, the former Archbishop of Cape Town and a leading liberal, who said at an Ash Wednesday service in London last week that Anglicanism must include everyone, regardless of their sexuality.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/03/01/nbish01.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/03/01/ixnewstop.html

[iverglas]

31. inclusion

... Anglicanism must include everyone, regardless of their sexuality.

I'd need a whole lot more explicit evidence before I took that as an endorsement of the ordination of gay men and lesbians!

... and I may have found it: http://www.qrd.org/qrd/world/wockner/news.briefs/105-05.01.96

BISHOP TUTU BLASTS CHURCHES

... In February, Tutu became the highest-ranking Anglican to call for the ordination of non-celibate gays, a move which sparked controversy in England where the Anglican Church is based.

And that's from 1996. It unfortunately doesn't give a source.

Now, my recollection is murky, but it has to do with the 1998 Lambeth Conference (of the bishops of the world-wide Anglican communion), at which the black African bishops took an extremely hard conservative line against the ordination of gay men and lesbians. They haven't got their heads around the ordination of women yet. And so this kind of stuff was still coming to Lambeth in 1998:

http://www.anglicancommunion.org/lambeth/1/sect1rpt.html#appendix

Resolution V.35 from the West Africa Region

This Conference:
(a) noting that -

(i) the Word of God has established the fact that God created man and woman and blessed their marriage;
(ii) many parts of the Bible condemn homosexuality as a sin;
(iii) homosexuality is one of the many sins that Scripture has condemned;
(iv) some African Christians in Uganda were martyred in the 19th century for refusing to have homosexual relations with the king because of their faith in the Lord Jesus and their commitment to stand by the Word of God as expressed in the Bible on the subject;

(b) stands on the Biblical authority and accepts that homosexuality is a sin which could only be adopted by the church if it wanted to commit evangelical suicide.

Note: This Resolution was put to the Conference in the form of an amendment to Resolution I.10 and was defeated.

(A similar but slightly less virulent resolution from the Central and East Africa region was also defeated.)

Cripes, loads of women have been "martyred" who didn't want to have sexual relations with their male captors and torturers. Maybe we should get a church to declare heterosexual sexual activity a sin, too.

Anyhow, this is what actually came out of Lambeth (resolution 1.10, referred to above):

http://www.anglicancommunion.org/lambeth/1/sect1rpt.html

The Conference
... (e) cannot advise the legitimising or blessing of same sex unions nor ordaining those involved in same gender unions; ...

and I think the criticism of Tutu was that he brokered that "compromise" with the ultra-right African bishops outside South Africa (some of whom accused him of pandering to the USAmerican "liberals" out of the gratitude of an underling for their help against apartheid) rather than standing up for what was right.

There isn't another Lambeth until 2008. We shall see. ;)

.

[outinforce]

38. Evidence?

Links?

I do know that Mother Teresa is hated by many pro-choice extremists.

I thikn that that had more to do with the fact that she gave lie to the oft-repated lie that pro-life people are only concerned about life before birth and are not at all concerned with people who are born.

Many extremists, when confronted with actual people who challenge their core beliefs, attempt to smear the people who challenge their core beliefs.

I'm not sure wheterhwhat yo usay is an attempt to smear Mother Teresa or not. I do know that she won the Nobel Peace Prize, so it would surprize me greatly if what you're saying were true in its entirity.

SInce you make the claim about Mother Teresa, you surely must have some links or other documentary evidence.

I'd be most interested in anything you can show me.

[iverglas]

42. Nobel Peace Prizes and being "surprized"

I'm not sure wheterhwhat yo usay is an attempt to smear Mother Teresa or not. I do know that she won the Nobel Peace Prize, so it would surprize me greatly if what you're saying were true in its entirity.

Hmm. Didn't they give one of those things to Henry Kissinger?

Now I wonder what a Nobel Peace Prize might be prima facie evidence of?


I do know that Mother Teresa is hated by many pro-choice extremists.

I thikn that that had more to do with the fact that she gave lie to the oft-repated lie that pro-life people are only concerned about life before birth and are not at all concerned with people who are born.

I can't speak for any pro-choice extremists, not knowing any whose view I might ask, but for me, I despise her for a variety of reasons. I couldn't care less, as we all know, what "pro-life people" are concerned about, apart from their concern about getting control over women's lives. And that's more than plainly a concern that was dear to Ms. Bojaxhiu's heart.

Since I would have thought that you, of all people, would be quite aware of her tireless and outspoken crusade against not just abortion, but also contraception, I have to wonder why you would take what would seem to be such a very wild guess as to why anyone pro-choice might harbour ill feelings toward her.


SInce you make the claim about Mother Teresa, you surely must have some links or other documentary evidence.

And they'd probably be relevant to a discussion of old Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu, if that's what this was.

And if you want to say that you have not read, oh, reports of the Tariq Ali/Christopher Hitchins documentary about her, do please say it. Or take the easy step of asking google for "mother teresa" duvalier. I wonder whether Haitians are praying to this particular saint today.

Gosh ... Tariq didn't think much of the prize awarded to Carter, either: http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,855502,00.html
He's got a point, I'd say.

.

[Zookeeper]

17. It seems like Christianity should be two religions..

There are positive messages about loving and caring for one another.

And then there is a completely different set of messages involving judgement, guilt, conformity, not needing to be responsible for your behavior because you're going to be forgiven anyway.

It's hard to believe any thinking person could reconcile greedy, selfish, right-wing politics with the message of Jesus.

(I'm not a Christian, by the way.)

[Az]

21. There are far more than 2

religions claiming to represent Christianity. This is in large part why discussions about religion boil over here. So many claims to Christianity and so many persecuted by those claiming to be Christian.

The people that consider themself Christian and do not share the positions of those that oppress become riled at how the name Jesus has been hijacked by others. Meanwhile those that have been oppressed by people calling themselves Christian do not see the need to learn to distinguish between which particular sect of Christianity is responsible for their pain and instead condemn the entirety of it. And when these two groups meet chaos can ensue.

[FlaGranny]

18. I propose

that instead of referring to right-winger extreme conservative Christians as fundies or fundamentalists or Christians, that we refer to them as "right-wing religious fanatics" (RWRF's - maybe "raw-rafs"). We all know, even those of us who aren't Christian and don't believe in religion at all, that those people live far outside the values that most consider Christian.

I have never had a problem with anyone of any religion, including atheists, unless they were fanatics. Fanaticism is not a "good thing," no matter where it's coming from, and that's why they are a minority, albeit a dangerous one.

[seabeyond]

20. good/bad

i have a tough time with that

i am going to leave that one alone and not judge a good or bad christian, misguided ok, lol lol..........but i get i am not a christian cause i vote democrat. i dont want to give back the same energy

[iverglas]

24. how I took the "good/bad"

I wasn't thinking this person is a good christian, or this person is a bad christian. I'm not one, so I don't presume to judge how good a one someone else is. ;) (I mean, I might occasionally try to apply someone's own standards to his/her behaviour, but that doesn't really accomplish anything anyhow.)

I was thinking in terms of "this christian is a good person", and "that christian is a bad person". How good a christian somebody is doesn't concern me; how good a person somebody is does.

.

[DrWeird]

22. Martin Luther

was a vicious antisemite.

[maveric]

25. So, Catholics are Christians?

I'm Catholic and the fundies around here tell me that I'm not christian.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

35. Catholics are the original Christians

Fundamentalist Christianity isn't even based on the Gospels. It's based on the writings of St. Anselm, who wrote in the 11th century-during the Crusades. They are a Doomsday Cult that reject about 80% of Christ's teachings.

[efhmc]

39. The Greek Orthodox Church will challenge you on that one.

[JasonBerry]

44. Yup!

"Catholics are the original Christians"

Remember the Inquisitions? Catholics are original Christians, because Catholics claim to be the original Christians. Many other Christians see history - and theology - very differently.

[mopaul]

26. I support ALL good christians

my mother is a bad christian, devisive, intolerent, bigoted, pushy, and preachy, but my father, is about the only true christian i have ever met. charitable, kindhearted, forgiving, humorous, down to earth, etc. a heart of gold, and very christlike.

my complaints against christianity is that they won't weed out the bad ones, because of pre-conceived notions about christians. they figure anyone who goes to church and declares themselves christian, as in the president's case, must be o.k. even if they are demonic.

[Zookeeper]

27. Yes..

There is that bunch that seem to believe that saying they've accepted Jesus is enough; no need to actually behave ethically or anything. Or at least, no need to behave ethically to people who aren't part of their group.

[efhmc]

37. I will have to say that those folks on your bad Christian list are not

followers of Christ. They follow Paul (a man I once told my pastor that if he's in Heaven, I'm not sure it's a place I want to go. He laughed. I love those liberal Lutheran ministers.) and the patriarchs of the old testaments. I have too much hate in my heart for bush and company to portray myself as Christian these days but I keep on slugging along. Peace and love.

[Muddleoftheroad]

47. Maybe your mom seems divisive

Only because YOU seem divisive to her. Perhaps you might try approaching her in a different manner.

I can only infer based on your post. No Christianity WON'T weed out people. Much like our party, it is a big tent.

[seabeyond]

28. this feels incredibly like the other side

i can see them putting this list up and just switching the good and bad.

in good and bad a polarity is creating has to be a right and wrong. and this has been my issue with passion and talk of jesus. this to me isnt what jesus was saying and we have to embrace the ones on the bad list at least equally personally i do more. they feel this cause of how they were raised what they were taught and though it is hurtful to the people they are yelling at, who is really in pain is themselves. who really sits in fear is them,. and they clearly yell out their fear to us.

i dont see it in battle. i see it as if it were my little boy yelling out in pain

it goes along with the thread on the bully. they are not just like that for no reason, they are created, and always it is love that heals. this isnt in love. i chose to address it in love. and if i see them as bad, then how do i give them love, and i am not healing i am into creating more of the pain,. that is where i put a stop and a stillness comes.

i dont have to feed and fear along side of them experiencing the pain with them

so many of the posts on the board today are all connecting to this, if one can see. interesting. just so.

[efhmc]

33. I divide us into real or trying and phoney or hypocrites.

[GreenPartyVoter]

36. List one seems more likely, doesn't it?

On the other hand, he went way out of His way to eat with people others considered to be undesirable. ;)

http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[dpt223]

40. bad christians

I'm not sure that I'd label Son of a Bush and Asscroft Christians.

Claiming to be a Christian to be a Christian does not make one a Christian. The same way that claiming to be good looking does not make me good looking.

[Disturbed]

41. The bible

Seems to me that the old testament and new conflict in philosophy. Also, seems to me that Jesus was a Socialist. How the Right Wing in America reconcile that is mysterious. Would Jesus be comfortable hanging out in the splendor of wealth of the Vatican and would he wear one of those silly hats?

[skjpm]

43. good and bad are simplistic categories, I admit, but. . .

my point was that there is this whole side of Christianity which doesn't seem to get much airplay--we know the people, but we don't know they are Christian. Tolkien, for instance--there's much more Christian imagery in the LOTR than in the Passion. Gandalf being tortured by a Balrog took longer and was more painful than what Mel said happened to Jesus. But the amount of suffering was not the point for Gandalf or Jesus--it was that they willingly underwent the suffering in order to save their friends. So, it would be nice if people saw these wonderful people as the Christians they were and are. (OK, I'm still undecided about Mother Teresa, but for the moment, I'll accept the myth of her as a nice person.)

Jesus is visible in so many people--but we need to speak up a remind the world of what Jesus actually looks like.

[Muddleoftheroad]

48. Splendor, wealth and mockery

Wow, all three in one post.

The splendor that is the Vatican is largely due to its great history and art it has commissioned over the centuries. Much of the wealth it has belongs to that art and historic buildings. It cannot sell them, so it must simply hold them in trust for the people.

As for the last, nice dig about silly hats.