What will the average American voter make of Haiti?

[efhmc]

Will it make any impact on them and if so how? I always think bushco lies no matter if they need to or not. However, I'm not the AAV so I just can't see where this will go.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. Nothing

I doubt the average voter cares much.

[efhmc]

4. What will they think of Aristide's accusations of kidnapping?

[tom_paine]

7. Nothing.

[efhmc]

18. Not nearly as interesting as Janet's pseudoinflated, right breast .

[lutherj]

2. What's Haiti?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

24. It's like the Bird Flu virus

very contagious!

[efhmc]

25. To other rebels or to the CIA?

[Kahuna]

3. Nothing. Americans rarely give a damn about third world

countries.

[efhmc]

6. But doesn't this continue to make us look like evil manipulators to

all of the rest of the world?

[tom_paine]

11. Unfortunately, they are correct. More correct than ever before.

<sigh> I remember when foreign cokplainst were (relatively) groundless.

No damned more. The Imperial Family of Amerika ARE evil manipulators.

What remains to be seen is if the Imperial Subjects of Amerika approve of this.

(and how would we tell anyway, given the Third World Corruption of Amerikan Voting Systems)

[efhmc]

14. Well I know that it is a correct assumtion, I'm just wondering why it just

doesn't matter to the average person. We really do have to live with the other people that inhabit this planet. Surely some have to understand that.

[Djinn]

62. hate to tell you

but half the world already thinks that - not just about the US, the UK also

[efhmc]

72. Well, hon, I know it is true. I just wonder why no one seems to care that

it's true. I don't think we should run our foreign policy on being liked but I do think we should run it on being respected as honest and forthright people. That will never happen with the bushies around.

[lebkuchen]

5. Headline, Stars & Stripes: WH calls Aristide kidnapping rumors "nonsense"

"Number of Marines in Haiti could hit 2,000"

Everyday the Stripes headline sends an unspoken message to readers: We're on a run-away train with a conductor who has snorted one too many lines.

[efhmc]

10. Sorry, don't see how that headline shows that. Sounds like straight

reporting to me.

[loftycity]

13. Stars & Stripes unspoken message really works

I know more people reading it, in the past couple of months.
Haiti---the average person--I think might start to get a spark of this. If we are sending troops in and with RumpRoast adding to the mayhem by deploying more troops to Iraq. It's getting closer to home for Americans... I'm being optimistic....

[efhmc]

16. So those that are going to be directly affected by this and their friends

and relatives are starting to see the dark at the end of the bush tunnel? Is that what you are seeing?

[bif]

8. The average American is pretty sure it's somewhere in Europe.

Dumb shits.

[efhmc]

12. So not here, doesn't matter to me. No impact at all.

[ShaneGR]

9. Unless they live in SE Florida, they won't care

It's really irrelevant to 99% of the population, unfortunately.

[terryg11]

15. what about the dem candidates?

have they said anything on this? If the Bush admin is truly up to some no good then why don't they make this an issue? It would only add to the list of Bush's lies and mistakes

[efhmc]

17. Someone mentioned that the candidates should speak about this but I

not sure that they would know what to say. I sure don't.

[terryg11]

19. not to get on their cases or anything but

they should have some idea of what's going on there being senators and the proximity of Haiti to the US. Not to mention Kerry sits on the intelligence committee I believe? If they are going to tout BUsh's international failres and how they can do better this would be a good place to display some of those qualities

[efhmc]

20. Yes, I know that they should understand the situation, but what should be

their stand: "Just another bush failure?" or what?

[terryg11]

23. they can think for themselves

Since they have access to more information and (kerry at least) has been in the senate during most of our recent dealings with Haiti he should have some position already. I'll admit, I haven't been paying attention to Haiti until it crashed onto the radar last week so I can't really say what their position should be. Sometimes a good politician has to know what to do, at least that's what a good leader would do - be prepared for events such as these.

Haiti has a long and recent history that most people can follow up on if they wish. Having been in the senate and serving on various committees that most likely discussed the Haiti scene over the past two decades at the very least, Kerry should have some opinion.

[efhmc]

26. Well that is a good answer but I not sure what if anything we can or shoul

do there. Hopefully, our candidates can figure it out. thanks.

[madrchsod]

21. looks like the "nothing" is

in the lead...american people could care less about haiti.

[efhmc]

22. You are sure right. The "nothings" seem to have most of the votes.

[Minstrel Boy]

27. Most Americans didn't give a damn about a coup in their own country.

They sure as hell won't give a damn about Haiti.

[efhmc]

29. Okay, I guess I see the trend. "We no see unless it directly affects us."

Too bad, it really does affect us.

[Mick Knox]

28. IMO .. No one cares....

Not to make an appreciable difference...

[efhmc]

30. Okay, okay. I am convinced, sad, but convinced.

[Career Prole]

31. You want the average?

If you average them I believe you end up with a progressive Caribbean paradise on one half, with the other half fenced in for the indefinite imprisonment of political prisoners...oops, I mean detainees...on average.

[efhmc]

33. Really, you think there is a 50/50 split? How many people did you

interview?

[cosmicdot]

32. is this a French-related thing?

Celebrating the Bicentennial of the Independence of the first Black Republic


Jean-Jacques Dessalines is 2nd, 3rd photo - Alexandre Pétion
the other 2: Toussaint Louverture, Henry Christophe






http://www.haiti.org/

"La Dessalinienne"
Jean-Jacques Dessalines

March on! For ancestors and country,
United march, United march;
Loyal subjects all remain,
And lords of our domain
United march, March on!
United march for ancestors and country,
March on, united march, march on!
Unite for ancestors and country!


For sacred soil,
For sires of old
We gladly toil.
When teem field and wold
The soul is strong and bold.
We gladly toil, we gladly toil
For sacred soil,
For sires of old.


For land we love
And sires of old
We give our sons.
Free, happy, and bold,
One brotherhood we'll hold.
We give our sons, we give our sons
For land we love
And sires of old.


For those who gave
For country all,
God of the brave,
To thee, O God, we call;
Without thee we must fall,
God of the brave, God of the brave.
For those who gave
For country all.


For flag on high
For Native land
'Tis fine to die.
Our traditions demand
Be ready, heart and hand,
'Tis fine to die, 'tis find to die
For flag on high,
For Native land.

[efhmc]

34. People of color and French. OMG, now I get it.

[berry]

35. Actually, I think the average American voter would care

if the truth were readily available. The media's doing a lousy job, as usual. Even after the WMD lies, there seems to be no skepticism. Augh!! Nightline was "even-handed" or worse last night, mentioning some doubts about the US actions, but then quickly dismissing them. Surprisingly, Charlie Rose last night was pretty good. Oh, not Charlie himself, but 2 of his 4 guests were passionately and articulately angry and called it a coup d'etat by the US military--Jeffrey Sachs (Columbia Univ economist and a friend of Paul Farmer, the Harvard doctor who works in Haiti) and Michelle Montas (director of Radio Haiti). Of course, the other 2--Mark Foley (R congressman from Florida) and Timothy Carney (ex-ambassador to Haiti, but I didn't catch when he was amb)--were disgusting, spinning and talking about what was important was to move on, look to the future. But Sachs and Montas stole the show (IMO). Then at midnight, Maxine Waters was on PBS with Tavis Smiley--excellent, of course.

So, I don't know. I think the black community may be able to make this an issue. I certainly hope so. But the odds are against, as they were when we attacked Iraq. It's not just apathy--it's the campaign of disinformation. And the media just won't do its job. (Even the Guardian isn't much use on this issue.)

And *BushCo is off and running to change the subject. Greenspan gave a major speech today on the currency problems with the Chinese, and Powell gave a speech on Asian foreign policy. So it looks like they're ready to cause uproar in Asia, if only to shift the attention of the world away from Haiti.

Of course, people might begin to pay attention if the Democratic candidate spoke up and made it an issue--tying it to the whole pattern of ideologically driven, rabid foreign policy coming out of this WH. But will he do it? I hope so, but I can't feel sure that he will. Would it help to flood his campaign office with advice about this?? At this point, I still have a little (a very little) hope that this will be an issue that people learn to care about.

[efhmc]

36. A wonderfully thorough explanation. My question as to the candidates,

aside from the morality of speaking the truth (or the truth as one knows it and I would expect the candidates to have knowledge here.)should our candidates involve themselves on this international event since no one seems to care (AAV) and the potential for harm on this "nonissue" might serve no purpose?

[Cappadonna]

37. Most white folks won't care, but Bush can kiss his minority votes goodbye!

Yeah, sorry to say this DUers, but seeing as most of you are white, you're probably the only white people who will care about this coup. Honestly, most of America's middle class caucasians are too self-centered and outright clueless to understand the dynamics of what happened to Aristide. However, blacks, latinos, arabs and a few in the SE asian community know the score. We knew before he got elected, we knew during the war in Iraq, and Haiti solidifies it. Basically, Bush has declared war on any brown skinned leader on the planet who will not bow down and kiss his ass. Any black person who even thought of voting for Smirk seriously second guessing it now (Yes, yes, all 20 of them!!)

And that 25% of the Latino vote he got in 2000 has officially dropped to about 6 or 7%. If Bush can just turn a blind eye to Haiti and practically hand it over to brutes and thugs, what to stop him taking over somewhere else? Not too many people from Latin America are going to want to vote for a guy who would over throw their homeland's government on a political whim.

[efhmc]

38. Wow! You think this will make a difference to voters of color, I hate

for it to occur for any reason but it is good to know that it might help some to see the light. I has heard that Latinos were excited about the guest workers' program and were getting into the repuke's corner for this reason. I think that was before they knew that the workers would have to return after 8 years. For some that would still be a reason to like him, since it would get them here legally to work. If you read "Fast Food Nation", this is a favorite proposal of Pete Meersman, president of the Colorade Restaurant Association as it give his folks an endless supply of cheap labor.

[Disturbed]

39. TV

The TV Media shows a bunch of black people jumping for joy over Aritide's departure. The US helped him leave and are the good guys. End of story. Back to Gay Marriage, Kobe, Jacko etc. and discussions about Christianity.

[efhmc]

40. So jumping for joy when Marines come is the key to this issue. One

wonders who will get to jump for joy next. Maybe we should ask our fellow DUers who the lucky next country will be.

[Hippo_Tron]

41. I don't know how you would definate average American voter...

But the answer to your question is probably no. This will probably only be a big deal for people who have Haitian ancestors or family/friends living there.

[efhmc]

43. To me those are the good folks that are working hard, trying to make

their way in life, pretty much believing the best of their government for all its ills. They get much, too much info from TV and vote accordingly.

[abbyhoffman]

42. The average American

does not give a shit about poor blacks in the US why would they care about poor blacks in Haiti & when we start drilling for oil off shore of Haiti you'll know why we got rid of Aristide

[efhmc]

44. I am not so sure that is true. Are you saying that if these were white

folks that things would be different?

[Isome]

45. That's what I would say.

It would be a far different reaction. It's so easy to believe that Aristide was a "thug", because he's a dark-skinned man of African descent. If he was a blonde-haired, blue-eyed man with skin like porceline, that thug line wouldn't go over so big. People would look at Aristide and think of their father, brother, uncle, friend, husband, etc. Instead, they look at him and think... yeah, he could be a thug, probably is.

If Haiti's indigenous people were blonde-haired blue-eyed people, we'd never have colonized them (19 yrs. worth).

[efhmc]

47. Yikes, so you think instead of colonizing them, we would have made

them a state? I thought that Haiti was a colony of France. Wonder what true believers in Democracy here and elsewhere could do to help? Is it too late? Are we doomed to repeat these mistakes over and over, even if we get rid of *bush (Please, Goddess!)(That aside is, of course, about ridding us of bush and not about repeating mistakes.)

[Isome]

52. Hmmm...

Here's a brief history that you may not have known:

Before independence in 1804, Haitians were colonized at different points in time by the French, English, U.S. and Spanish.

"First, the colonizers wiped out the indigenous Arawaks, estimated at over one million people, in a mere 13 years. Essentially the Europeans worked the Arawaks to death as slaves mining gold which was stolen from their land to enrich the kings and emerging bourgeoisies of Europe.

When the Arawaks were exterminated (and that is the right word), the Europeans were forced to import new slave labor. They went to Africa, waged bloody wars, and enslaved millions of our ancestors. Almost half died in the "Middle Passage." If they survived, they could look forward to a very short and brutal life. Slaves in colonial St. Domingue were routinely tortured, raped, murdered, or simply worked to death. At the slightest hint of rebellion, slave heads were cut off and impaled on stakes."

Finally the masses overthrew the French colonists in the only successful slave revolution in history. The Republic of Haiti, which was the Arawaks’ original name for the island, became the first independent nation of Latin America.

"But the Europeans and the nascent United States continued their war crimes. They embargoed Haiti for her first six decades. (Guess why? Because they thought free Black folks would be a bad influence on the Black folks living in the US.) They planned invasions and counter-revolution from the neighboring Spanish colony. "France demanded that the former slaves pay their former torturers and executioners 150 million gold francs in war reparations. (That sum would be worth billions today)." Guess what? They did. It took them 100 years, but they paid it to their former enslavers and colonizers. That's the only time you hear of reparations being paid and Europeans don't bitch about how unfair the idea of it is.

The United States stole Haitian territory like the Ile de Navase, a small island just west of the tip of Haiti, which the U.S. continues to claim as its own to this day.

Finally the aggression of various colonial and neo-colonial powers culminated in the first U.S. military invasion of Haiti on July 28, 1915. The Marines’ first action was to blast into the Haitian national treasury, take all the gold (stolen for a second time if any of it was Arawak gold), and ship it to the First National City Bank in New York. They tore up the Haitian Constitution, and Franklin Delano Roosevelt, then Secretary of the U.S. Navy, wrote a new one. He allowed foreigners to own land. U.S. companies then grabbed the most fertile valleys and set up agribusinesses growing sugar, rubber, sisal, and other crops. Haitians were again enslaved under a system of forced labor called the "corvée." At bayonet point, Haitian peasants were forced to build roads, railroads, buildings, and other infrastructure to service U.S. companies and their neo-colonial administration.

"But the Haitian people resisted. A guerilla army known as the "Cacos" under the leadership of Charlemagne Péralte and Benoit Batraville was formed. They put up heroic resistance to the Yankees, with horses, machetes, and ancient guns.

The Marines killed thousands of Caco fighters, including Péralte and Batraville. Peasants in guerilla zones or who resisted the "corvée" were herded into concentration camps, precursors to the infamous "strategic hamlets" of Vietnam."

The U.S. occupied Haiti for 19 years until 1934. The most famous atrocity during that time was in 1929 when the Marines gunned down 264 protesting peasants in the town of Les Cayes.

In the decades that followed the first occupation U.S. war crimes against Haiti were carried out a proxy army. "First the U.S. trained the Guard of Haiti, which later became the Armed Forces of Haiti."

Then came dictator Francois "Papa Doc" Duvalier in '57.

Jean-Claude "Baby Doc" Duvalier suceeded his daddy and I believe he was the one who created the Tonton Macoutes and FRAPH (I'm not sure if it was him or his dad).

He was overthrown in 1986. Guess which country's plane flew him out of Haiti and into France? Ours did.

Jean-Bertrand Aristide elected in '90. But the war criminals struck back. The Tonton Macoutes and Haitian soldiers trained at Ft. Bragg and in the Panama Canal Zone, were supported by our government in the first coup in Sept. 30th.

During the next 3 years, Haitian soldiers and paramilitaries killed about 5000 Haitians. "One of the principal death-squads was a group called FRAPH. About 150 of its members had been in the U.S. military. FRAPH’s leader — Toto Constant — like many of the Haitian high-command, was an admitted CIA agent, who took directions from Washington. He now enjoys political asylum in Queens." (Look that up, it's no secret and Warren Christopher admitted Constant was a paid informant on 60 minutes.)

[efhmc]

54. Wow. The only part of this I knew was about the slave uprising in the

1800's and Papa Doc Duvalier. So now what? What will work and what is good for these people. They want what? They need what? And with the present unelected rebel leader, where is democracy headed?

[Isome]

58. The want to rule themselves.

They want to rid the country of CIA operatives and weapons. They want out from under the IMF/WTO mandated privatization (professionalization) of government functions.

It's not that we or the rest of the world has done too little for them, or too much for them. It's that no one will leave them the hell alone. Too many countries want to continue to exploit them for cheap labor, so they find the willing sellouts among them, and funnel them money (and weapons), spread propaganda internationally, and wait for the guns to start firing. Oh' and it would be a big help if France would pay them back those unwarranted reparations.

• It was controlled and owned by the U.S. following the occupation (1915-1934). U.S. aid poured in to Francois "Papa Doc" Duvalier in the 1950s and early 1960s, allegedly to eradicate poverty. The real beneficiaries were Haiti's elite.
  
  
• The Kennedy Administration cut off aid in 1963 because of corruption and human rights abuses. Aid was restored in 1972 with the inauguration of Jean-Claude "Baby Doc" Duvalier.
  
  From '73 to '81 international aid was $477 million, most of it from the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID), World Bank and Inter-American Development Bank.
  
  
• International financial agencies pressured Haiti to shift its economy away from agricultural self-sufficiency and toward export-oriented production, especially to the U.S. Ninety-five percent of the country's light manufacturing exports are destined for U.S. markets.
  
  
• Under Reagan's Caribbean Basin Initiative, Haitian goods were offered free access to the U.S. market. U.S. assembly companies pay no corporate or personal taxes. The result was a substantial growth in exports of clothes, electronics. toys and sporting goods. This includes clothing found in Sears, J.C. Penny's and Wal-Mart in your home town, and many baseballs and softballs found on Ohio ball fields.

http://www.afsc.org/greatlakes/BHAITI.HTM

This western culture we believe to be so civilized, is big on kicking those who are down.

[efhmc]

60. Well, now I am just sad. So do nothing. It seems that the US has

and continues to interfere for self gain. You know that the bushies will push for whatever aids big business, which is cheap labor. What can people of goodwill do to make a difference, beside working hard to rid ourselves of bush (which is a very self-help driven desire)? I guess it is frustration as usual for those of us who are here hoping to make changes for the better, or am I being too cynical?

[Isome]

61. 1. Don't believe the hype!!

That's the most important rule. When the common refrain is one thing, break your back to find out the other side of the story. Then you can weigh the two and come to your own conclusion.

Once you decide, like James Carville says, don't be afraid to talk about it with your friends or family. Don't allow ignorance to remain unchallenged by complete information.

If you're like me, someone of modest means, make extra efforts to effect change through letter writing, phone calls, online petitions, etc. It's not enough to wait until the ballot boxes are rolled out. Some instances, like the crisis in Haiti, require loud protest from the people.

[efhmc]

66. Well, my family members are all liberals so that part is easy. I needed

a clearer idea of the problem and where to make a stand because I really did not know what the "good side" of this is but what I think now is that these people need to direct their own destiny and without the aid of uncle tom/sam. Well, I always knew that, I was just not sure how it could happen and am still uncertain. I am thinking that this idea that we need to "help" other grownups make their way is very condescending. If the way were simple, then US interest would be out and the country could go about its own business but that probably is not going to happen. It is up to the Haitians to make their own way to complete freedom and I wish them all of the best. I will write some e-mails to this effort and hope peace and stability prevails.

[noiretextatique]

46. they will SWALLOW the government's propaganda

hook, line, and sinker...as usual.

[efhmc]

48. I am so confused that I am not even sure what they are pushing.

They, the bushies, don't really seem to care about this. Am I completely wrong?

[noiretextatique]

49. no...you aren't wrong: they don't give shit

and aristide has been depicted as a thug and a pyschopath from the beginning. and haiti is of little interest to bush, inc, for many reasons.
americans will believe that aristide is evil, just as they believed we were on the right side in supporting the wrong side in central america.

[efhmc]

51. So what and where is the truth? I am beginning to understand why

Americans might not know what is going on here even if they WANTED to (big if). With all the other bush garbage that is being sent their way they will probably just go back to the stock car races. More shame to us that it is all bread and circuses or more to the point, smoke and mirrors.

[noiretextatique]

55. it is complex...a lot of it has to do with how we are educated

and miseducated about the rest of the world, and our relationship to it. as you know, when our government/media uses words like "communism" and "thug" and "freedom-fighters"...it's shorthand, code language, to convey a simple-minded "good" vs. "bad" message.
in this case, i'm afraid aristide is "bad," and haiti is also.
as to the truth of the matter...it takes work to find out what's happening between the shorthand, code words, and soundbites. it's possible to know, but i think you are correct: many people who want to know may not know how to find out. a sad state of affairs indeed.

[efhmc]

57. I am really hoping for a change which is why I asked this question. How

can we Americans be so continually wrong and/or ignorant about so many other countries and their leaders and people? Simple repetition and revelation of our mistakes surely will finally get this point across. Are we really doomed to make the same errors time and again?

[bobbieinok]

50. it's sort of like - hey, it's there, we can do it in our sleep

I don't think there was any thought involved at all

divine right - whatever we do is right and blessed by god

[efhmc]

53. You know, that is the feeling I am getting that now they are just picking

the fruit that is falling from the trees. Some trees they shake and some just falls. What a creepy thing to think about. They are so inhuman.

[mlawson]

56. Haiti? Oh, south of FLA.. That reminds me, baseball practice starts soon!

[efhmc]

59. So you vote for, "Yawn."

[mlawson]

63. I vote for, "Oh, that is happening somewhere ELSE... Now, where were we?"

"Order in, or eat out???"
"But, in Haiti, they don't even have enough to eat!"
"Yeah, too bad. They should build Pizza Huts there. Now, again..."

[efhmc]

68. Yeah, but is that malaise, ignorance or insensitivity? Or all?

[mlawson]

70. Irrelevance, probably.

They probably feel about 'foreign affairs', they way I do about professional sports: "How does it affect MY life?"

Of course that is wrong, but tell them that.

[efhmc]

71. Too bad and too sad. Sometimes, I think we might be underestimating

the AAV but perhaps I am wrong. I have been before and will be again.

[PATRICK]

64. Does the average Cuban exile care?

Just curious. Unless the WH is asleep they might be wondering if this boosts hope for a Bush Cuban solution and hence an electoral plus in Florida.

[efhmc]

67. I have heard a Cuban/Haitian connection mentioned but I didn't get

it. How does one impact the other?

[spanone]

65. Haiti is a gnat to most folks. I'm sure Cuba is looking good to cheney.

[efhmc]

69. As what, a place to get destroyed? This has been tried by much, much

better folks and failed. Besides why would he want that country. It has no oil?

[leftofthedial]

73. duuuhhhhhhhhhhhh . . .

I dunno. Who cares about some little country halfway around the world anyway?

What do you think of the new NASCAR scoring system? I think it blows.

[efhmc]

74. That's okay sweetie, when your racing buddies are all called away to fight

for bush and company, you probably won't even notice that they are gone.

[leesa]

75. They won't have a clue and won't care one bit

Too complicated to think about. The game's on.