Can one of you tell me how Aristide was a "thug"?

[eablair3]

I keep hearing this get repeated over and over again. "Aristide was a thug". "Aristide was a criminal and repressive to his people".

This is directly at odds with what I've read and know of the guy.

So, any of you who know about this, I'd appreciate being provided the evidence. (And, no Donald Rumsfeld, Colin Powell, Scott McClellan, GW Bush and the pundits on Fox News saying this repeatedly, does not make it so.)

Where's the eividence? I NEVER hear any evidence to back up any of these statments.

I see some where Aritstide spent money on schools and education for all in Haiti, and spent money on healthcare for all in Haiti. But, specifically, where and how did he "repress" or murder his people as a criminal thug as Fox News and the US Govt claims so repeatedly?

[bryant69]

1. Have you looked at Amnesty International?

Here's their report for 2003; before the current situation arose.

http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Hti-summary-eng

Bryant

[tom_paine]

7. Good website. Everyone should read this.

Whatever Aristide was, the Bushevik Stooge who follows him, with Phillipe running the Haitian SAVAK-style (maybe they'll call themselves Tonton Macoutes again) Torture and Murder Squads, will be FAR FAR worse.

And darkness falls across the world.

[bryant69]

9. Yeah I thought of that afterwords

The question isn't whether Aristide was a great leader or even a good one; the question is whether or not we have the right to go in an change things we don't like.

[dixierat]

2. An indicator of thuggery.....

try this:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/02/22/MNG8J55OAG1.DTL

[terryg11]

6. good links people, thanks

wonder if I'll be branded a Bush enabler since I just said that?

I don't support Bush's actions by the way. Just wonder why he's being made a martyr here

[JasonBerry]

8. Don't worry

The thinkspeak mafia here at DU will be mad because you dared even question a leftist leader. But, alas, facts are facts - that Amnesty International Report is devastating.

[Bandit]

12. Why do you dislike Democracy?

Who gives a rat's ass about Aristide except for the people who elected him. It is Democracy that is being thrown out not Aristide.

[Gulf Coast J]

13. The last election was rigged so bad the UN pulled out

From a Christian Science Monitor article (that's very critical of Bush) from last October: But because of allegations that Aristide's election to his second presidency in late 2000 was rigged, the UN pulled out of Haiti completely the day before he took office in February 2001. Secretary-General Kofi Annan criticized the continuing instability in the country, and warned that Haiti could become an international "pariah" if the situation continued.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1014/p11s01-coop.html

[jansu]

36. And our 2000 election here wasn't rigged?

Should some thugs come in and violently overthrow our government, killing civilians without the will of the people? Remember, these thugs have already been tried and found guilty for mass murder!

I thought Bush said he would fight terrorism wherever it was....another lie!

Did the people want him out?

[Bandit]

38. There were US Congressmen and Senators there who say differently

Aristide had absolutely nothing to do with any of it anyway as he was not in power at the time even if there were some discrepancies. The discrepancies were over six senate seats out of over 175 seats up for election.

[dpibel]

20. You're joking, right?

If you think the Amnesty Int'l Report on Haiti is devastating, don't look at the reports for some of our best buds, like Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or Pooty Poot Good Soul's Russia.

And don't, fergawdsake, look at the report on the US, because your head will explode.

Was Aristide's regime heaven on earth? Is ours?

What government was responsible for the greatest number of civilian deaths during the last year?

If you guessed Haiti, you might want to review what the greatest American leader before our Beloved Fierce Warrior Chieftain called "stupid things": facts.

[Bandit]

11. Aristide is not the martyr ~ Democracy is.

:shrug:

[newyawker99]

14. Hi dixierat!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Warpy]

3. Thanks to both of you directly above

Since I left the east, I've been out of touch with what's going on there. My take on it had been that Aristide had been a thug who governs by intimidation and only a minor improvement over the Duvaliers, but that this had been a coup engineered from outside the country, involving the military, and had the blessing of the Bush appointistration.

Guy Phillippe's hero is reportedly Pinochet. I doubt he'll be much of an improvement over Aristide.

[el_gato]

4. people repeat corporate spin like its the truth

it's very hard to peel their minds away from the propaganda

[Tempest]

5. He was a thug because he was a leftist

Faux News and the U.S. government?

Like either of them can be believed.

[tom_paine]

10. I'm afraid you are correct.

I miss Free America.

[karabekian]

15. he was a thug

and the people were tired of him. The rebels took the country in like a week which illustrates his low popularity. I think he certainly fled considering the rebels would have probably murdered him and his family. I will not shed one tear for this bastard. Hopefully the UN will be able to do something here. I am glad bush went throught the un and it seems this may be a way to help mend bridges between the France and the US. I just wonder why Kerry wanted to invade unilaterally to keep Aristide in power regardless of the UN or Haitians right to self determination. Whats his deal?

[Isome]

17. That's the same line corporate media uses.

But they won't use the pictures of his supporters... this is them...

[jonnyblitz]

18. if you wanna see "thug" you aint see nothing yet...

Aristide was a walk in the park compared to what's coming now....

[Djinn]

23. bad feeling

it's impossible to know what to beleive anymore. Chavez, also according to our media had "low popularity" and the "rebels" were the "people" - turns out those rebels included the only McDonalds workers in the world ever allowed to strike, and keep their jobs and employees at Pepsi amongst others were ORDERED to strike.

I'll take a bit more time to read through Amnesty's stuff, but if Aristide is disliked, let them have an election and get rid of him, and if the last elections were so fraudulent (although, that they existed at all puts them a notch above Saudi, Burma, Pakistan etc etc) why did the international community not do something about it then.

Even if Aristide is guilty of all the things hs detractors say - why would anyone believe US intervention will install someone better is beyond me. All seems deadly fishy to me.

[Tinoire]

26. Stunning.

[Dirk39]

28. If after the civil war in the USA,

the south would have toppled the U.S. government, re-established slavery, supported and paid for by a foreign goverment, and the elected US-president would have been kidnapped: you would have become a member of Amnesty International, to discuss human rights violations commited by the North during the Civil War.

"The rebels took the country in like a week which illustrates his low popularity."

Or maybe the absence of an army?

Hitler must have been very popular in the countries he invaded first. And those in the concentration camps might have had a popularity problem ...
Your logic is convincing.

Hello from Germany,

Dirk

[plurality]

35. The rebels took the country in a week...

because Aristide abolished the military. He did this because of all the hideous human rights abuses committed by the military over the years.

While I'm not ready to beatify Aristide, I think some things are being overlooked. Yes Haiti AI has some bad things to say about human rights in Haiti. Of course I'm also realistic enough to know that any country where people have a hard time eating is going to have it's problems. Another thing that has to be taken into consideration is that Arisitde's government was the first ever pretty much to try winning popular support by working for the people as opposed to stomping all those that said anything. Plus you have to consider that not every fan of fascism in that country fled to France or the US when Arisitide took power. Many of them stayed put, agitating, making life miserable for just such an occurance as we have witnessed.

[Isome]

16. AI report... devasting? Nope!

It is absolutely illuminating, though.

After two years of trying to broker negotiations between the Haitian government and opposition, in early September the General Assembly of the Organization of American States (OAS) passed Resolution 822. This laid the groundwork for elections in 2003. However, the initial deadline for setting up a new provisional electoral council by November was missed, sparking widespread violence between supporters of different parties. The resolution also called for normalization of relations between Haiti and international donors, who had blocked aid following disputed elections in 2000.

First things first, the OAS is legitimizing the "opposition", even though the opposition is comprised of former FRAPH, Tonton Macoutes, and Duvalier-supporters, and funded by the right wing residing here in these united states.

Second, like the remainder of the report, the violence was not reported to be at the behest of Aristide. It was reported among/between the supporters of various political factions— and there are so many. Is Bush responsible for the death of Patrick Dorismond by NYPD officers? Is Bush responsible for the death of Kenneth Walker by Georgia police officers? Could it be reasonably argued that Bush is responsible the brutality of police officers who voted for him?

Then there's this...

Resolution 822 also urged Haiti to implement a disarmament program...

How did the opposition acquire US-made M16s? Aristide is credited with disbanding the military and living up to every OAS resolution (though the murderous opposition refused to honor their end of the bargain), but somehow his foes are toting bright shiny new weapons made in the U.S. of A.

Given the violent history, it's natural that there are Aristide supporters who may have engaged in violence. Is it right? Of course not, but it's predictable.

[Isome]

19. How did he "repress" or murder his people as a criminal thug?

He didn't. That's the thing.

But if he's a "thug", so are all these people...

[Codeblue]

21. Sorry but

I think using little gangs called "OPs" to maintina control of his government and repress the people is thuggery.

[Isome]

22. It sure would be...

If he'd done it. It would be worse to cultivate former FRAPH and Tonton Macoutes, supply them with weapons and then legitimize them as an "opposition". Yeah, that would be even worse.

Who deemed them a people's organization? Oh' yeah, they gave themselves that label, not Aristide!

It's not as though they had to fear from roving gangs of Duvalier supporters, funded by U.S. organizations like .:NED:. It's not as though decades of exploitation had any affect on their decision to strike first (pre-emption anyone) before they were struck. Oh' no, that's nonsense. Haiti had a whopping 5,000 police to enforce the law in a country of about 8 million, they didn't need to form those OPs. Oh' not at all. After all, the U.S. refused further assistance for training and equiping a force of adequate size, even though we continued to harbor criminals from the Duvalier regime and send arms to the Dominican for the paramilitaries to pick up. They had no reason to establish little 'gangs' for their own protection...

[Tinoire]

27. You mean like this? The FRAPH SCUM?

[Isome]

30. Exactly...

Hiding their faces because they know they do wrong!

[Tinoire]

31. Pretty soon the Duvalier shades will be in fashion again

They've already got the US uniforms, just like last time... Killer shades are next.

[Peregrine]

24. Haiti is ungovernable

When you have most of the people in poverty while a super small minority with all of the wealth, no leader can maintain control. A consultant that worked for me had another client in Haiti. He would travel there at least once a month. He would be transported from the airport in an armored SUV to a compound consisting of multi-million dollar villas protected by the military.

All the US is interested in is finding somebody that can maintain order, and in general American presidents really didn't care how they did it. Aristide is gone because he couldn't keep order. And Phillipe or whoever is next will be in power for as long as they can maintain order.

[Isome]

25. Haiti is ungovernable?

Given the history of US interference, among other countries, it's illogical to flippantly conclude that the country is ungovernable. Further, given that Guy Phillipe (sp) is a suspected drug trafficker, it is bizarre to suggest that he is someone that is qualified to "keep order" of any kind.

Strangely enough, rarely is it mentioned how much money is generated by the cheap labor that supplies many U.S. companies with inexpensive goods, how Aristide wanted to raise workers' wages and how the wealthy business owners were just as angry about that as .:NED:. It appears few know any details about Haiti.

[Dirk39]

32. Re-construct your post:

"All the US is interested in is finding somebody that can maintain order, while a super small minority with all of the wealth is safe, and most of the people are kept in poverty.
And in general American presidents know that fashism is the only solution, and they will not care, how it's been done and how many starve, die or being tortured, as long as the doors are open for foreign investors and the wealthy minority is safe "

This is how I read your post!

Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[Karenina]

37. It is VERY easy for anyone

brought up in the U.S. to swallow the equation BLACK MAN=THUG. It's a bit more difficult for them even when the likes of the indiscriminate, death-dealing *cabal that has seized control of their government BLATANTLY rapes them, their kids, their food, water and energy supply, the very air they breathe and everyone else on this planet up the ass right, left and center, to connect the pain they themselves are experiencing with a white face.

[Codeblue]

33. Well if your definition of an ungovernable state is true...

then America is ungovernable. Yet the leaders seem to have maintianed control at least since the end of the Civil War.

[Bandit]

39. compound consisting of multi-million dollar villas protected by the milita

What military? Aristide abolished the military. Aristide could not fight off rebels armed with modern American weapons and uniforms because he had no military. Your source doesn't seem to know what they are talking about. So I say your whole post is just right wing propaganda.

[Tinoire]

29. & you won't see any that stands up. Should tell you something right there

and the faster you see the roaches crawl out of the wood-work, the more scared you know they are.

Something about poor people having Democracy seems to terrify them.

Something about Black people having Democracy petrifies them.

Make that poor Black people and they go into an absolute panic- to the point of confusing their urls.



Pretty soon though, we'll be flooded with propaganda about how the dark folks love being back on the plantation and think sweatshops are just "neato".

[mikehiggins]

34. He was put in office during Clinton's administration.

That is enough reason for BushCo to want him out. Now we get a return to the good old days of military dictatorship where everyone knew where they stood, and that pesky democracy crap is kicked to the curb where it belongs.

I guess Haiti will be the next transfer point for Afghani heroin and Colombian cocaine.

A wholly owned subsidiary of BFEE and our money paid for it. AGAIN!

ABB for the world's sake.