Are white American men easily duped?

[alcuno]

I have had this question in the back of my mind for a long time now; actually since some argued last year that * went to war to gain favor with white American men. I never read Michael Moore's book so I don't know if the title, Stupid White Men, refers to the men in charge or the average guy handling the remote control.

I don't mean to insult the white men here, but when a recent poll came out in Illinois showing a 24% gap between men's and women's support for *, I just had to ask the question.

I was watching the ads that the administration is airing on ESPN, cable news, and the Golf Channel and they didn't seem to say anything. In one, * mutters something like "I know where I want to take this country," but then he never bothers to say where that is. Are white American men easily duped? Is that it? Do you just wave a breast or a race car or a flag in front of their faces and they fall in line?

I feel better already.

[bahrbearian]

1. Not all. but evidently..

[H2O Man]

2. whatever

you say!

[Hammie]

70. Sorry, got it in the wrong spot

[KG]

3. as a white man in america, my answer is: it sure seem so.

also, i'm not insulted by that observation, either.

[rwheeler31]

4. The men I konw are bright and wonderful

the problem is the are manipulated by their bosses.

[Joanne98]

5. Joe six pack

Thinks he might be rich some day so he votes against his own interests.

[DenverDem]

6. Willfully ignorant denial monkeys.

Demagoguery succeptable.

[billbuckhead]

17. American white men have a lot invested in the USA capitalist system

They might win some sort of lottery.

[guitar man]

51. This might bite * square in the ass

The perception of the capitalist system paying off for hard work is what motivates the majority of these "white men".The regression from capitalism to outright feudalism seems to be a wakeup call for a lot of the white middle class repug guys I know. This time,THEIR lives,livelihoods and properties are on the open market.

When the repugs trashed manufacturing back in the 80's,most of the victims were Union workers who mostly voted Democratic. This time,with the destruction of the white collar "professional" jobs,he is fucking with his base bigtime.Hopefully,this will mean the demise of the BFEE.

[stepnw1f]

55. Very Possible,

then very selfish, and finally self-destructive

[Jade Fox]

7. totally off the topic...

He "knows where he wants to take this county"?

Take a hike George. Where you want to take this county is what scares us...

[BeFree]

18. Where he has taken us already, is what's really scary

[alcuno]

19. I guess the idea is to leave it ambiguous.

And not mention where he wants to take the country. We're just supposed to know without being told.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

8. Oh Yes They are!

I grew up in a white, middle class, Republican town. Although historically Rethug, in 2000 we voted 50% Bushler/45% President Gore.

Even though my town has grown and advanced (we have a Dem mayor), the white men still think that Bush is looking out for them.
He's the "every man's, man", he's "stong on defense", and he's
not a "wussy" Democrat.

So, to answer your question, yes, white men are easily duped.

[BootinUp]

9. Its not that simple

(for the record, I am in the subject group)

Political opinions are based off of past experiences, probably family history and such. Once opinions are formed or there is strong party identification it is hard to change that loyalty, no matter what race one is. It takes major political events, and I do not know if the Iraq/Terrorist situation rises to that level, probably not, based on the primary results. Even so-called independents probably have a favorite party they usually support.

My parents are democrats, I voted for Reagan my first vote, since then all Democrats.

see ya
no bashing please :)

[TheFarseer]

10. yes

I lived on a farm most of my life and the farmers would always vote rethuglican eventhough I dont think a republican has ever done anything for a farmer. In fact, I'm convinced they want to put every farmer in american out of business so that corporate farms can take over. So my answer is yes

[alcuno]

15. Welcome to DU, TheFarseer.

I agree about the corporate farms. And the idea is laughable that they want to totally repeal the estate tax because of the family farmer. Family farms are not in the 50 million + category.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[muffin_man]

12. Yeah but....

they rule all of us and the rest of the world! If they are easily duped what does that make us?

[leesa]

37. But it is about to collapse.

I think it's the myth of making it big in the US. Americans are very greedy and very stubborn. Republicans got conned by their leadership but they can't admit they were conned.

They tell them they are pro-business but destroy small businesses with their huge corporations (Wal-Mart, Starbucks, etc.).

They tell them they are for the farmers and now the farms are gone, swallowed up by huge corporate farm factories.

They tell them they are for smaller government but corporate welfare and corporate military spending soar under their watches.

They say they are anti-corruption and the morality party but they are the most corrupt and immoral people on earth.

They do the same thing over and over and Republicans still stupidly believe their lies.

[kher-heb]

13. all americans are easily duped

but its easier to blame white men specifically.

[Djinn]

27. not just americans

plenty of pig ignorant people (men/women/black/white/religious & atheist) who seem intent on voting against their own best interests here in Australia too.

[Art_from_Ark]

39. There are plenty of Americans here

who have seen through the bullshit since Day One. The problem is, we do seem to be in a minority.

[shanti]

48. sadly, friend

i believe you are correct.

[renegade000]

14. yes,

a perfect populace for my master plan of world domination

BWAHAHAHA!

[alittlelark]

16. OK, W. men are indoctrinated from birth that they are powerful.

All they have to do is watch TV, look at political leaders, or (in many cases) the power structure in their household. They see NOTHING WRONG with continuing this model. Why should they??
The only ways that a W male can gain vision into the REAL WORLD is through interaction with : An enlightened father, a respected sister, a respected mother, a girlfriend/wife with a backbone, or a very influential, enlightened male friend.
I wish all W males could have these experiences, but until they do (?) they will continue to be confused, misogynistic, fearful of maintaining their position......Republicans!!!!!


Ladies, start your engines, you can change the world.
Please do.

[alcuno]

23. That makes a lot of sense.

It's the willingness to be deceived that gets me.

[maveric]

20. Absloutely! I'm a middle aged white male and some of the dumbest,

stubborn, willfully ignorant people I have ever known are white men.
These types are under the impression that if you are a democrat, or worse, a liberal, you are a passive, overly sensitive wimp. bu$h and his ilk can break a broomstick off in their ass and take away their shoes and they will still back them to the very end.

[SaintLouisBlues]

60. You Nailed It maveric, It's a Macho Thing

When their jobs aren't imperiled that is. I believe we can get close to 40% of the white guy vote this fall because of jobs, and this will seal the Shrub's doom.

[seabeyond]

65. abortion and gay

issue

i think these are the two issues that stop the group of people from thinking or considering or listening to democrats.

beyond the money in the wallet thing

i am listening to their ministers say jesus will know how you vote, and if you dont vote for bush you go to hell. it is as simple as that

and the gay issue, goes against their macho ism and homophobia

[ComerPerro]

21. Well, look at how the GOP targets them, ... er, us

They sit back and they tell you that these "liberal eliteists" want to take away your job and give it to a minority, they tell you that your hard earned tax dollars are going to fund inner city single mothers on welfare, they tell you that you are losing your identity, they tell you that the minorities are taking over, and it goes on and on...

And, well, a lot of white guys are dumb enough to believe it.

That is why Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity enjoy such success.

[Cleita]

22. White entitlement isn't just confined to white men, but their families

as well. I think it's fear of having to face up to the fact that they have been the ones who were at the front of the line and now other, different looking people are threatening their security. Previously those people who used to to the dirty work now want their job and they want to live in their neighborhood and send their kids to the same schools. They worked so hard to get into the right neighborhood with the right schools and look what's happening. It wouldn't have happened if those other people hadn't gotten those better paying jobs.

Well, this is how the reasoing goes.

[wuushew]

24. That doesn't explain their opinions on all the issues

The traditional American lifestyle is not directly connected to the illegal PNAC agenda. I mean why would Ward Cleaver support the IWR and not June Cleaver?

[Cleita]

45. June Cleaver supports it all right because she supports Ward.

I know very few white conservatives who have a clue about the PNAC and I live in a place that June and Ward Cleaver would fit right in.

[alcuno]

25. So single white women trend liberal and married white women

trend conservative. Still, Illinois has an awfully big gender gap when it comes to *.

[QC]

40. Not all white guys were at the head of the line.

You're making a common mistake, which is to act as though there is no such thing as class in America. I can understand why conservatives would like to believe that, but I cannot for the life of me understand why so many liberals are blind to the reality of class.

My decidedly white and male grandfather, who was born in desperate poverty, had to leave school in the fourth grade because the family needed him to work, and then spent forty years as a miner, dying prematurely from overwork and lousy health care, was not a privileged man.

People in Appalachia, most of them white and about half of those male, are suffering from third-world mortality rates caused mainly by poverty. (Excellent article here.) When were these people ever at the head of the line?

Here in my town in rural Mississippi, four local factories have closed in as many years, leaving, among many others, quite a few white guys with no jobs and no hope beyond working at Home Depot or WalMart. (We also have a serious problem with methamphetamine here--I think they're related.) These folks aren't privileged either.

The fact that the privileged and powerful are mostly white guys doesn't mean that white guys are all privileged and powerful. Bill Gates and those people in the Appalachia article have very little in common.

And I think that many of the responses in this thread explain why the Left no longer holds much appeal for working class white men. When we point at people who work like dogs but are barely able to pay the rent and put food on the table, who can't afford to go to the doctor when they get sick, and tell them that they have benefited for far too long from their ill-gotten privilege, then we cannot really expect them to believe that we understand their lives or care about them.

[wuushew]

42. Why did West Virginia reject Gore on gun issues then?

The gritty realty of working poverty should trump all other issues if a voter is truly voting in their best interests.

[QC]

44. Who said people always vote in their own best interests?

Unfortunately, they don't. If they did, then only the top 10% would vote Republican. That's why the Republicans like to run on the cultural stuff, like guns. It reminds me of the way pickpocket gangs used to work with street entertainers to divert people's attention while they were being robbed.

This doesn't really have much to do with my point, which is that privilege has to do with more than just race and gender, but I have some theories about why working class people generally don't vote purely on economics.

One is that the two parties have, for a long time now, been more alike than different when it comes to things like "free trade." It was a Democrat who got NAFTA through Congress, after all, and now we have a nominee who voted for NAFTA. If your job got sent to Mexico, which just happened to the woman I rent from, you're probably not going to see a lot of difference there.

Another thing is that people really do care about those cultural issues. I wish they didn't, but they are sincere about it. And I can understand why. I think that if you and I were told that Party X was going to end the control of corporations and shift the tax burden to the rich but also weaken equal rights and environmental protections we would balk. It's frustrating, I know--I live around people who don't have a pot to piss in but faithfully vote Republican because of "values." But that's the world we live in.

[Muddleoftheroad]

57. People are funny about their rights

They tend to resent losing them.

[seabeyond]

66. yet easy as pie

to validate and justify taking rights if it fits their agenda. and that is on both sides.

[Cleita]

47. My blond blue eyed father's formal education ended with

the fifth grade. After that, at the turn of the last century he worked his way west picking cotton and any other labor intensive job he could get. Yet, he managed to learn engineering and eventually rose to a management position with his company. He earned everything he got, yet I never saw a black man, no doubt many whom he picked cotton with, in a management position in his company, nor actually did I ever see one in a management position until around 1980. My father was long dead then, but my point is that he still went to the head of the line in front of the black man, who had the same start in life he did.

[QC]

49. I see your point,

and I don't disagree. No one can deny that there is such a thing as skin privilege, and this was particularly the case when your dad was making his start.

My point is simply that white skin in itself does not equal a level playing field. Anyone who doubts this need only consider the example of George W. Bush. Does anyone really believe that he got to fail his way upward into the presidency solely (or even mainly) due to his whiteness and maleness? Or did his rich daddy have something to do with it?

Speaking in broad-brush terms of "white males" papers over the difference between someone like your father, who prevailed against hardships that most people living today cannot begin to imagine, and a smug ignorant drunk like Smirky, who has had everything handed to him every day of his life. What is worse, it ignores the very key role that inherited wealth plays in this country right when we need to be talking about it.

(BTW, did you read that link about Appalachia? It's an amazing article, one of the best I've seen in a long time.)

[Karenina]

56. You are correct, QC

that "economic class" is a BIG issue in America. However, you seem a bit myopic here (NOT a flame, just an observation) when it comes to the role racism plays in preserving the status quo. Anecdotes about whites in poverty DO NOT address the issue of HOW and WHY the hierarchy of power is maintained.


"The fact that the privileged and powerful are mostly white guys doesn't mean that white guys are all privileged and powerful. Bill Gates and those people in the Appalachia article have very little in common."

Absolutely correct! And the easiest way to prevent the poweless from joining forces with others in their same predicament is to stoke their racism. Feed them the drivel that if they just work hard (not like them lazy, no 'count nigras) they too can become Bill Gates. PRESTO! Easy as falling off a log in a white water rapids.


From your post #44

This doesn't really have much to do with my point, which is that privilege has to do with more than just race and gender, but I have some theories about why working class people generally don't vote purely on economics.

Racism TRUMPS economics in America. Every.single.time. The story was making the rounds a few years back that Oprah Winfrey (IIRC one of the RICHEST women in the world) was REFUSED entry to a Park Avenue boutique. They didn't recognize her and would NOT open the door.

Let me share an anecdote with you. My parents "pulled themselves up by their bootstraps." Dad was a shrink (who read, wrote and spoke fluent German because he wanted to read texts in the original language) and mom had a Masters in English and a PhD in education.
Shall I bore you with "war" stories about how many times I, the lone black face in the classroom until MY SENIOR YEAR in high school, was abused by teachers and beaten by fellow students for being to "uppity?" (Read: speaking the Queen's English without an accent and getting high marks in the classroon AND on those racially biased standardized tests)

There was a DIRT POOR white family down the road apiece. 8 kids in a tiny shack. Little Nancy and my sister were in a class together and became friends. She was NOT allowed to visit our 4 bedroom ranch house. Her older sister caught the two of them commiserating one day at the bus stop and got a bit violent with Nancy. My sister started to cry, I confronted Big Sis but was immediatey overwhelmed by the STENCH of urine upon which I immediately remarked. What I heard next was, "YOU'RE NOTHING BUT DIRTY NIGGERS! AT LEAST WE'RE WHITE!!!"

Are these the people of whom you speak?

[QC]

61. You're absolutely right about preventing the powerless from

joining forces. It's an old story in America, and it goes all the way back to the nation's beginnings. Divide the members of the lower class, pit them against each other, and sit back and reap the profits, safe in the knowledge that they will never have the strength to challenge you so long as they hate each other.

We see it all around us. An effort to unionize the overworked and underpaid custodial and maintenance workers at my university failed in large part over racial conflicts among the workers. Now these same workers are about to lose their state benefits as a result of cost-cutting, and there's nothing they can do about it, since they don't have a union.

So, I certainly see your point and know it to be true, since I see it all around me and find it so frustrating.

But I also know, from my experience growing up blue-collar in an affluent town, that white people are not one big happy family, as is so often assumed. I was treated as uppity, too, for being a factory worker's kid in homemade clothes who spoke good English and wanted to go to college. The school counselors, despite my good test scores and all that, tried to steer me toward something "vocational" and the insults I got from the country club kids at school sounded remarkably like the denunciations of "rednecks" and "white trash" that we so often hear from alleged liberals right here at DU. That is what has made me so aware of class distinctions, just as your own experiences gave you such a powerful lesson in how race matters in this country.

A lot of things factor into privilege. Unfortunately, these discussions usually become very either/or, with one person insisting that it's all about one thing, and another insisting that it's really all about something else. But in truth an awful lot of things are factors in privilege and the lack of it.

So how do we go about changing things? I'm genuinely interested in your ideas, because I share your frustration with seeing people vote against their own interests because of their prejudices.

[Karenina]

72. QC, I have tears in my eyes

reading your post. You are a very, very dear soul. No "group" is a monolith and I get so agitated reading posts about <name the category> thinking this way or voting that way as though human beings are no more than bins in a CD rack... Let's just make contact. Our exposure to each other is where it starts. Our willingness to share our understanding with each other is where it starts. Our fight for our survival is where
it starts. We are together on this one in these times. We shall hang together or we shall hang separately... :hug:

[QC]

76. Thanks so much--I'm very touched by your response as well.

Maybe someday people will get past all the grouping stuff and see one another's humanity. When that happens, then we will start tomake some real progress in this country.

[Darth_Kitten]

58. The frustration comes from seeing......

lower middle class and/or poor white men defeating their own interests from aligning themselves with Bush and Co. How can the Left NOT hold appeal for working class white men? They really think somebody like Reagan was for them? Do they really have more hate for struggling single mothers/minorities than for people like the Bushes and Reagans with their lifestyles and greedy, selfish ways?

Maybe they should wake up (they aren't stupid, needy little victims) and see who is on their side and who isn't.
Also, most WOMEN aren't exactly privileged, and you don't see them vote overwhelmingly against their interests (Republican)

[Karenina]

59. In answer to your question

"Do they really have more hate for struggling single mothers/minorities than for people like the Bushes and Reagans with their lifestyles and greedy, selfish ways?"

My response is an unequivocal "INDUBITABLY!"

[orwell]

26. Southern Strategery

Boy Bush plays on the "strong father" model. He is portrayed as authoritarian, enamored with black/white moral constructs. He seems to relish punishment as discipline. Some men naturally relate to this blatantly male-centric view of the world.

The "white" part comes in due to the Republican party's 30+ years of stealth racial coding. In other words, Nixon's southern strategy required an appeal to white racial hatreds without expressly invoking them. This tapped into growing white anger over the beginnings of the racial equality movement, easily identified with liberal social reformers, empowered by the "activist courts".

It is George Wallace that initially formed this strategy as a form of diversion, converting post Depression mistrust of "evil" corporate elites to "evil" government. Wallace's socio political jiu jitsu is still the bulwark of the fake Republican populism of today.

O

[enough]

32. Yes, I think racism is at the center of it.

We know a fair number of white working class men here in eastern PA (formerly rural, now suburban). We live in an area where there are no African-Americans and very few of any kind of minorities. Still, these men manage to be talking about African-Americans ALL the time, in jokes, in stories, in political discussions. It's as if they are OBSESSED with them, even though they never have any interactions with them at all. They will bring it up even in the briefest of casual encounters.

And they all vote all Republican all the time.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Catherine Vincent]

29. Maybe some of the ones that vote repuglican.

And I think the poster above got it right when she said Joesixpack hope to be rich someday so they'll vote against their own interest.

But let me take the time right now for the white males that vote Democrat...THANK YOU VERY MUCH GUYS, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY NEEDS YOU!

[gulliver]

30. It's not all white men! Just desperate losers and the wealthy.

In my experience, about 75% of white mail Bush supporters are sad, pathetic, unattractive losers. They can't get women to like them, so they are against women's equality. They hate other races because they want to feel better than someone else. A bunch of them are gay or avoided service in war, so they need to be Republican as cover.

Then there are a bunch of rich ones who just laugh and laugh...

[alcuno]

31. I agree that the wealthy are laughing their heads off.

Imagine the corporate CEO whose greatest champion is the guy working in the trenches.

[BillZBubb]

33. As a white American male

My experience with other WHAMs is that they are the most easily manipulated group by far. I often hear WHAMs talking about how "emotional" women are in their decision making.

I find it is the men who make the most emotional decisions. They like macho, so a phony macho guy like Bush* gets their vote. They like strong leaders, so a misleader like Bush* gets their vote. They like patriotism and the flag, so a "super-patriot" like Bush* gets their vote. And, they hate "libruls"--but not one of them can make a cogent case in opposition to liberalism. Of course, they babble the usual right wing tax and spend mantra but that's about as deep as it goes.

Sad really. I guess it's the testosterone.

[Jade Fox]

34. I read something recently....

claiming that gender voting stereotypes are indeed a myth, that women are more
likely to vote for someone based on issues, while men are more likely to
vote for someone they "like" and think would be fun to hang out with, or who
"seems like a stong man" etc.

I admit I was surprised.

[Faygo Kid]

35. She told me she was on the pill

Hey, daughter is now 27. Glad she wasn't. Easily duped? White men? Are you telling me that Barry Bonds and Jason Giambi have used steroids? That Bush planned to invade Iraq from Day 1? Shocked. I am shocked. Round up the usual suspects.

[SharonAnn]

36. As a white woman, I can say that I've often been able to

dupe them. :-)

BTW, the breast works better than the race car or the flag. Not sure if it's a sex thing or a mother thing.

[seabeyond]

38. bah ha ha ha ha

you are funny
;-)

that ole breast, could be the mommy thang

[ArkDem]

64. Depends on the breast

.

[Fight_n_back]

41. We own everything

so "we" are being "duped" all the way to the bank.

[QC]

46. Who is this "we"? Do you have a frog in your pocket?

I live on $900 a month and haven't had health insurance in years. I have health problems that I can't afford to get treated, thanks to said lack of insurance. I'm going to be out of work in May and have no idea how I will get by then.

Where do I go to sign up so that I can own everything? It would be a nice change.

[Fight_n_back]

50. First of all

if you see my name next to a post then the odds are I am joking.

Secondly...if you take any homeless white man, shave him, clean him up and put him in a picture with the President, people will assume he works at the White House.

Put a Harvard educated, Nobel Prize winning, multi billionaire black man in the same picture and everyone will say, "Who is the black guy with the President".

Put a woman in the picture and people will say, "She is too big in the hips"

Whether you are a white man who DOES own everything is not the real issue, it is that you conceivably COULD own everything. and we are the only ones who can say that....for now.

[ArkDem]

63. Do you have a lot of YEN in the vault?

.

[Vittorio]

43. I'm not an easily dupeable (is that a word?) man...

Nothing can sway me to one side or another on many different issues. Hell, even women's breasts have no control over me. Sorry ladies.

[guitar man]

52. I am not easily "dupeable" either

But a dd cup along with a pretty face just might:)



But seriously,I recognized the trend towards wage depreciation a long time ago. A lot of friends called me "chicken little" when I pointed it out to them. Most of them have come around recently and admitted I was right about it after all.

[wickerwoman]

53. I remember reading somewhere that boys from abusive/alcoholic families

are more likely to identify with their abusers and grow up to be like them.

I think capitalism and particularly the Republican party have been acting like sloshed up bullies for decades and abusing working class people. By the victims just come back for more or pass on the abuse to weaker people (women and people of color). So I don't think they're easily duped so much as looking for leadership in all the wrong places. Their model of "power" is a drunken bully and so they become drunken Republican-voting bullies themselves.

[stepnw1f]

54. I Think SO

Mainly white men voted for Bush.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

62. Human beings are easily duped.

I don't think there's anything inherently more gullible about white men. The best way to prevent people from being duped is to provide them with a good education, including critical thinking skills. If white men in America are more easily duped, I would say that may have something to do with the fact that they are at the top of the totem pole, so to speak, in this country. They may feel more secure than other groups. I think many black people, for instance, may rightly take a more cynical view of things.

[Xanth]

67. I feel better already

All of you have fell into the trap of race baiting. You've been duped. Look at all the crap you all are talking about. Being duped, if that's what you want to call it, is human nature. People will follow what they now to be true with the information they have. Those who have no current information will follow what the band wagon is carrying if it appeals to them.

America allows each person the opportunity to become the best at what they do if they are willing to apply themselves. There are plenty of very successful athletes, ceo's, actors, politicians, entrepreneurs, and guess what, they cross all racial and political lines.

Don't be duped. Be free thinkers.

[BootinUp]

68. You think #9 was?

I agree with you, has nuthin to do with race.

[lebkuchen]

69. Do snakes slither low on the ground?

[Hammie]

71. IMHO

This question doesn't deserve the dignity of a response.




(Apologies to H2O man)



IBTL

[Famine]

73. Oh those white men

I think most white men are smart enough to know which party says they support them and which one is full of people who go on web sites and say they are dumb, insecure, and easily duped.

Both sides can argue the truth of which would benefit them more. But what white men hear matters too.

Famine

[Peregrine]

74. White male's are tied up in self interest

whether justified or not.

When it comes to war, it is fought by minorities and the poor against minorities and the poor. So white guys don't care.

[tom_paine]

75. No, HUMAN BEINGS ARE EASILY DUPED

It isn't race-specific.

Sure, Bushevik Lies target White Guys (like me) but that is only because that is where they are concentrating.

Other races are as easily duped when targeted. It is a HUMAN characteristic, not a racial characteristic.