Someone told me that Kudlow "ate Graham's lunch"

[Composed Thinker]

How do you respond to this?

"Graham started his ignorant populist bullshit about a tax reduction in the payroll taxes and Kudlow CREAMED him with a recessation on the fact that over 100 million people own stocks and will benefit from the reduction in the dividend tax. Graham came back with a feeble observation that many of those people were already sheltered in 401Ks and Kudlow pointed out that the fact that over 200 major firms have already raised dividend payouts as a result of the tax break that the underlying value of the stock INCREASED. To which Graham shut up. YES Kudlow ate Grahams lunch just like I just ate YRs."

[wuushew]

1. perhaps you have a transcript available?

never take someone's word as gospell. Research carefully then refute with facts.

[Composed Thinker]

7. This person's next response:

Yes but you see YOU and yr dizzy Senator from down south


Missed the point - THE VALUE OF THE STOCK INCREASED as a result of the dividend tax cut. EVERYBODY IS RICHER whether it is a sheltered asset or not.

[Redleg]

11. Only richer if they sell the stock for more than they paid.

What a fucking rube.

[Ilsa]

19. Isn't that temporary?

When the stock goes ex-dividend, won't the price drop again?

[TruthIsAll]

28. You miss the point, sir. The value of stock is NOT increased..

Valuation is based on net cash flow from operations - before dividends. If a firm pays dividends, foregone cash flow is not available for internal operating growth or other investment. Presumably, the firm will earn more on plowback of capital than shareholders will on partially-taxed dividends.

[Composed Thinker]

29. That, and

as a more general statement, I recently read in The Economist that stocks didn't return to their previously high values.

[ShaneGR]

49. Composed Thinker thread

Haven't seen Composed post anything even a little bit positive to liberals. I wonder why?

[Redleg]

8. Excellent point. People do talk shit and make up "facts."

Kudlow is another of those supply-siders who clings to a failed economic policy.

[JohnKleeb]

2. "ate graham's lunch"

I dont get it? :shrug:

[leftyandproud]

6. never heard that expression?

in other words...grahm was like a prison bitch, having his meal stolen and eaten in front of him..he didn't fight back.


edit:
btw, I didn't see it...and kudlow is an asshole..just explaining the metaphor
;)

[JohnKleeb]

13. I see

I know. of course Kudlow is an ass. I get it now.

[Redleg]

3. Absolute bullshit by Kudlow.

Many of us do own stocks but in the form of 401-K, IRAs, and mutual funds that we are keeping for retirement. The dividend tax cuts won't do for the economy what Bush and Kudlow say they will. Kudlow is an unabashed supply-side, trickle-down dickhead.

So what the underlying value of the stock increased. How the fuck does that fix the economic problems we now have? Remember we had high stock prices (over-valued stocks) during the late 1990s right before the crash of tech stocks.

[Pepperbelly]

4. Au contraire ...

Graham took Cocaine Larry to school on economic theory. Larry was reduced to sputtering debunked supply-side nonsense and slogans. Graham is the man.

[sal]

47. Yeow!

I don't want to think about Larry eating anything of Graham's.

[ryharrin]

5. The "feeble observation" that most regular people

have their stocks in tax free accounts? Who is this person? And why do they think that a certain type of income that people get for simply owning part of a company that they don't even work to earn shouldn't be taxed?

[Composed Thinker]

9. This person is a jerk

[SharonAnn]

42. Those who value capital more than labor think that.

They don't think that money earned by work is valuable or important so it should be taxed much higher than money that is inherited or invested in someone else doing the work.

[oasis]

10. "Someone" who champions "Crack head" Kudlow over any Dem

would have his lunch eaten by me.

"ignorant populist bullshit about a tax redution in payroll taxes" :wtf:

[Syrinx]

12. Anyone think Kudlow is a dead ringer for the late Phil Hartman?

[JohnKleeb]

14. yeah I checked very much so

[demgrrrll]

18. What's your point with all of these threads? They remind me of people

I know who want to get a point across without admitting what they are doing. In other words, so and so is a x y or z, I mean I like her but have you heard about I don't believe it but...she seems so nice I couldn't believe it when I heard...when all the while their remarks are made solely to get the bad stuff out there without taking responsibility for the words. Interesting...

[Democat]

20. I wonder as well.

Something smells strange.

[JohnKleeb]

24. Are you talking to me lol?

its ok really but you confused me.

[Redleg]

31. I hear ya.

This "Composed Thinker" initiates mostly "question" threads- not that asking for opinions is a bad thing but for chrissake, wouldn't a composed thinker actually have something to state rather than ask?

[aquart]

15. Well, I'm one of the 100,000,000.

I own stocks. I own forty shares of Salon and two shares of Qualcomm.

Qualcomm has started paying a dividend. I believe it's about ten cents.

How big is that benefit to me again?

As usual, the response to the idiot is that 1% of the American people own what is it? 90% of the wealth? This goes for stock investment as well. Therefore, 1% reaps a huge benefit and the rest of us get the dime.

They love their numbers. 100,000,000 owning HOW MANY SHARES? Ask for the median, not the average. Bet you cash money they don't have THAT number.

BTW, regardless of the tax break, the total lack of investor confidence in this market would likely have caused the dividend instatement anyway. Or simply outlawing the stock option scam. Either or both would have brought on dividends with no other incentive.

[Pepperbelly]

17. it actually works out as a disincentive to job creation because ...

what otherwise might have been spent on capital improvements is now paid out in dividend.

[aquart]

34. Sweetie, no one's making capital improvements

Because they overspent on them in the bubble.

But the dividend ain't the enemy. Actually, the dividend is how stocks should work, because it encourages long term holding.

The enemy is the millions being leeched out in executive compensation and perks. There's something horribly sick and wrong there.

[lkinsale]

16. LOL, nonsense. I saw the show

You are obviously talking to a committed freeper ("ignorant populist bullshit" kinda gives it away, huh?) Here was my take on it, posted the other night right after Graham's appearance.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=105948

Graham told him straight, Bush has MISJUDGED the source of the economy's problems. They are not supply-side, they are demand-side. He said that when consumers are confident they won't lose their jobs, they will begin to create demand, so put the tax cut money to working Americans (a reference to his payroll tax cut on the first 10k, which he says will actually be a greater tax cut than the Bush cuts he would repeal.) It's a question of where the cuts are put, and fairness.

You can tell by this person's tone that they hear what they want to hear, I wouldn't bother trying to refute him. Graham's going after Bush, and all their sacred cows, and they are taken aback and upset, so they make claims like this.

And btw, tell your friend that "recessation" isn't a word.

[GBD4]

45. I saw the show too

And as discussed on that earlier thread, he was excellent, pushing his demand-side economic plan while bashing supply-siders and the failed Bush Economics. I actually thought the appearance was one of his better ones. He has a detailed economic plan and finally got the chance to discuss it on television.

[sfecap]

21. Here's why Kudlow is full of shit....

Most people own stock in tax deferred accounts, like 401K's or Defined Benefit Plans. The increase in "value", or the dividends paid aren't taxed in the first place. The individulas don't have access to the money in the account until retirement. For the millions who have stock in retirement plans, the reduction in the dividend tax means nothing in the short term, and means nothing as far as an economic stimulus.

For those who actually live off of dividends, do the math. Let's say that a stock pays (and I'll be generous here...) 50 cents a share. How many shares does one have to own to receive 50K a year? 100,000 shares. My employer's stock trades for about 67.00 a share. The dividend is about 50 cents or so. If I owned 100,000 shares (enough to give me about 50K a year)...I would own 6.7 million dollars worth. Having a couple more grand a year when my net worth is in the millions isn't a big deal. It doesn't mean my spending habits are going to change one bit. I'm already (hypothetically) wealthy.

The dividend tax cut only helps the (already) wealthy, and the corporations who don't pay taxes on money paid out as dividends.

Kudlow is full of shit. The dividend tax cut does nothing to stimulate economic growth.

[Composed Thinker]

23. I'm arguing with this guy

And thanks for your help!

[sfecap]

26. You might also want to tell him...

...that the supposed (because not ALL stocks will increase in value due to the dividend tax cut) increase in the value of a share of stock is an unrealized gain. The increased value is only realized if the stock is sold. When stock is sold it is taxed at the capital gains tax rate, which completely nullifies any tax saving realized on a dividend.

Unrealized gains are nice from a net worth POV, but doesn't do jack shit for the economy...

[Redleg]

30. Good explanation.

EOM

[roughsatori]

22. "recessation" your friend invents words and facts

You waste your energy arguing with people like that.

[Ouabache]

25. Graham was silenced because they WOULDN'T let him get a final word

They talked over him at the end of the show, actually forced him to stop what he was saying several times, wouldn't let him talk anymore. Typical rightwing tactic.

Host/Guest distinction and respect and hospitality for a guest is non-existent on that show.

Unless the 'guest' is a Republican, then he gets a final summation and big smiles and hearty thanks from Crudlow and Krapper.

[fabius]

27. Kudlow and Cramer are transparent...

...Corporate Feudalists.

They are loud and rude too. And spout trickle down all the time. I own stocks too and they're mostly in an IRA so there's no tax anyway. As to value they were worth a hell of a lot more when Clinton was President. And no, these were never worthless dot-bomb stocks either, but they have lost a ton of value in the Bush recession/depression.

Graham is a sharp guy. I'd like to see him as VP maybe.

[tjdee]

33. I don't know what happened to Cramer...

Cramer used to knock Kudlow and his Republican friends around, particularly in regards to their kooky economic nonsense.
He was loud and rude alright, but he was a Democrat and he voted for and gave money to Al Gore. One of his good friends is Eliot Spitzer.

I think 9/11 screwed with his head or something. When I tuned in to the show after Nov. 2001, after the Enron thing sometime, he was talking about how he didn't vote for the guy(Bush), but he(Bush) was doing a good job. Whaaaaa????????

[indigo32]

46. I can't stand them

They are truly disgusting.

[Bushfire]

39. I saw that too!

They totally talked over him, and wouldn't give him the last word on purpose. Graham had his facts straight, and could easily refute the warped view of "Supply Sider" Kudlow. sfecap did a good job giving the breakdown of why, and throw those facts back into your friends face telling him who just stole whose lunch?!? K&C said Graham was welcome back anytime, but I get the feeling that would be the last time for quite a while. It was so obvious for anyone who has worked in the industry, and has a brain on their shoulders whithout an agenda pushed by Larry Kudlow, Steve Forbes and their ilk.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JNelson6563]

36. amen

This poster brings a lot of reich-wing talking points here. The post ain't all that's transparent Pete.....

"Composed Thinker" (I always wonder about those who take screen names that are compliments to themselves) you are acquiring a false sense of security me thinks.......getting bolder and more blatant.


Julie

[TahitiNut]

40. "Doctor, I have a 'friend' who ..."

The superficially disingenuous regurgitation of baldly specious and fallacious reichwing 'arguments' (blatantly false characterizations) seems to be popular among dittoheaded disinformation Typhoid Mary's. (Atwateresque "Gee, ain't I shrewd?") Interestingly, this intellectually adolescent gambit is always devoid of any accompanying analysis, deconstruction, fact-checking, or other preliminary processing that would indicate the presence of a (ever how slightly) functioning brain.

[Q]

35. You post some very 'interesting' threads...

...that just coincidently and innocently use right wing talking points to bring up negative issues against certain Dems.

[JNelson6563]

38. Whatever do you mean??

*Wide eye blinking*

[TahitiNut]

41. You mean "Look what the cat dragged in"?

:eyes:

[peekaloo]

37. probably snorted Graham's coke, too.......

:eyes:

[BigBigBear]

43. I own stock.

About 30 shares of a large high-tech company. I get a stock dividend of about $6.00 every quarter.

My MONTHLY healthcare contribution went up more than that.

Kudlow can bite me.

[kentuck]

44. And what is the average value of stocks in the bottom 90% ??

It is less than $10,000 and what do you think the dividend check will be that they will receive. Bunch of BS!

[TahitiNut]

48. Please ...

                     +----------------+
                     |  PLEASE DON'T  |
                     |      FEED      |
                     |  THE TROLLS!!  |
                     +----------------+
                            |  |  
                            |  |  
                            |  |  
                         .,\|/\|/,.