You Black Box Voting Groupies are SO Sensitive

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

Listen, you have done a good job of raising the issue that computer voting systems are flawed (duh) and that paper trails should be required. I totally agree. It is a solid story that hopefully will improve the mechanical election process.

But the hype here is ridiculous. The last time I will say this:

The biggest story of all time
The impending murder of bev harris
The "hack"
Comparable to the Pentagon Papers
Larger than Watergate

Don't be silly, admit the hype.

================================================================

I will be posting every two hours here so you know that I am alive

[Andy_Stephenson]

1. You must not have read all the BBV

information? I can and do understand the WELL founded fears Bev may have. The USG is capable of many things.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[foo_bar]

2. you sound halfway sane

what are you doing here? :bounce:

[redeye]

4. Good point

He even shows signs of critical thinking, god forbid...

[redeye]

3. How true...

...I don't know if there's enough evidence to believe that the voting machines are being tampered with, let alone tampered by purpose, consistently, for the benefit of one party. I do know, however, that the hype and paranoia about black box voting that's rampant here is comparable less to Watergate and more to JFK's murder (which there's little evidence has been perpetrated by George I) or even to the Roswell space crash (have you noticed that aliens only crash-land in the USA?...).

Meanwhile, I put the "Bev Harris is about to be murdered" paranoia in the same category of "the Waco fiasco was intended" and "the Liberals are destroying WMD in Iraq in order to make Bush look bad."

[BevHarris]

21. Please source that: You'll find it came from the trolls

"Meanwhile, I put the "Bev Harris is about to be murdered" paranoia..."

I do hope you're aware that you are quoting the trolls, not quoting me or anyone associated with me. If you would like an explanation of why someone would announce they are posting once a day, here is what not posting might mean:

1. Gag order. Lawsuit shut the person up. That would mean someone else should pick up the ball and run with it.

2. Patriot Act. No search warrant, no lawyer, not even public announcement of what happened.

3. Depression. Person becomes overwhelmed and has difficulty functioning.

4. Car accident. Person busted up, in hospital, someone else needs to take over.

5. Retaliation. Goons come in and shut a person up.

I'm no millionaire, and I asked an FBI guy who came to take a report what someone like me does to put simple security in place. One of the simplest things, he said, is to be visible and public, especially if it is done on a regular schedule. i.e. DU, a brief announcement. That, a big dog, the group of big black guys I live with, and a few other things.

Okay, so the game today is "Bev is a paranoid kook" -- we can play that game, but quote me accurately and in context. Most of what people wrote is their own ideas.

Bev

[w4rma]

5. Is the potential/attempted theft of an election election bigger than the

Watergate break in? Yes.

Are the security lapses in our entire voting system that would allow *anyone* to steal an election bigger than the Watergate trespassing? Yes.

[aquart]

8. Are there huge amounts of money and power at stake?

Golly, yes.

Enough to steal Florida in front of us.

Enough to send Americans to die and/or murder in an oil rich country.

Maybe ALL oil rich countries.

Maybe one or two people would kill for that.

[Jim Sagle]

6. This thread ain't nuthin' but shit.

[Cha]

14. What Jim said!

:toast:

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chomskyite2]

7. "I will be posting every two hours here so you know that I am alive"

such pretentious bullshit

seriously, with the people saying "stay out of small planes"

that should never have been said. by anyone.

[aquart]

12. And the POTUS would never tell a lie in the SOTU.

Pretentious?

Now Ann future mother of the master race Coulter is pretentious.

GWB with the presidential seal on his cowboy boots is pretentious.

But worrying that somebody investigating something the regime doesn't like might be a trifle unsafe?

That's just common sense. George's respect for human life being so pronounced and all.

[BevHarris]

9. Please source your material and quote accurately

The biggest story of all time -- These are your own words, please provide source if you claim anyone but you said this

Impending murder of Bev Harris -- your own editorializing. If you claim anyone other than you said this, find the quote and use it, and source it. Don't imply or rewrite to suit yourself -- It is you that is doing the hyping.

the "hack" -- Bypassing passwords is called hacking. Did you need the screen shots of bypassing passwords again? Or would you prefer the part where passwords are created for 50 friends and assigned full administrative priveleges. Or do you want a recap of the part where the administrator's password is changed so she can no longer get in. What is it about "hack" don't you understand?

Or do you prefer hearing the word "hack" from ComputerWorld:
High-tech voting system can be hacked, scientists say -- ComputerWorld -- July 25, 2003

Pentagon Papers: You may not agree, but at least two computer scientists who are involved in the electronic voting question see it exactly that way. One is on unattributed source status, but the other has put it in writing -- From Dr. Douglas Jones, one of the leading experts on electronic voting in the U.S., an expert witness on voting, has testified before congress, a member of the Iowa Board of Examiners for voting systems, associate professor of Computer Science: "There are parallels between this case and the case of the Pentagon Papers"

Watergate: An editorial from the owner of Scoop. It may yet prove to be true, though we aren't there yet. But while we're selecting headlines, how about these:

Voting system called flawed
Washington Times, DC - Jul 24, 2003

Inside Electronic Voting Machines -- "Diebold voting systems apparently provide zero security to keep election officials from writing in whatever election totals they want." -- Slashdot July 8, 2003

Voting machine fails inspection
CNET News.com - Jul 24, 2003

Computer Voting Is Open to Easy Fraud -- New York Times, July 24, 2003

Some people (you, half-man) don't see Black Box Voting as a threat. Others describe it this way: Most everyone here sees Black Box Voting for what it is -- perhaps the greatest threat to democracy since this nation's founding. -- Ian Bruce

It so happens I agree with his assessment. You call it hype, I call it looking at the truth.

Bev Harris

[chomskyite2]

11. people are just pissed off at how seriously you took yourself

and you didnt do anything to stop people from going overboard and making statements on your behalf, you didnt try and cool the hundreds of people who replied, you encouraged it.

this story does not look as big as you said it was, and thats just being honest.

and no more of this "ill be posting every two hours to show the teamsters didnt kill me"

[BevHarris]

16. Again, quit making up your own quotes and attributing them to me

"ill be posting every two hours to show the teamsters didnt kill me"

Never said that.

And you might want to review one of the other threads to see what did happen. It's not a huge deal, and I don't go overboard, but there has proven to be enough reason to follow basic precautions.

[chomskyite2]

18. people did go overboard

and the people breaking the story wanted to ride that feeling people had. you didnt do anything to dampen people's wild speculations. if you did i would have much more respect for you. However I already do have some respect because you obviously care about our country and are actually doing something to save it. dont get me wrong.

[BevHarris]

25. Actually, I did dampen. Several times.

Go review the threads and you'll see that I said several times that this was a drip-drip.

Actually, most of the hyping was done by the trolls, who then shot down their own hype and imputed it to me and the folks who have been following this. Review the threads...I think you'll be surprised.

Tried to cool things down quite a few times, in fact. I have always said this is going to be a steady stream of stories, not one big one. And by the way, who said the stream has stopped? I do believe we've had at least one big story a week for 3 weeks.

And just this weekend...Dr. Rebecca Mercuri, perhaps the foremost expert on electronic voting, thrown out of election meeting; and this: Diebold president advocates using optical scans, says there are "kinks" in their touch screens.

I already know of two more hitting this week.

Bev

[chomskyite2]

26. sorry

ive lost those threads in the history, do you have a link? (im not accusing you of lying, theyre just too far back for me to find.)

[Pastiche423]

28. I am very curious

Why does it matter to you if the story was hyped? Why does it matter to you if people get excited?

I seriously would like to understand.

[DEMActivist]

33. Ahhhh, Pastiche....see...

then they can't paint Bev as "Paranoid Bev" without that allegation.

That's Diebold's pet name for her, BTW.

[DEMActivist]

29. It is you who poses the allegation

the proof of your claims is up to you.

Do your own research.

on edit:
Oh, I see....no star...you don't HAVE search privileges. LOL, do your own research.

[BevHarris]

38. I've never figured out the bookmark system (how embarrassing)

I save threads I like to my hard drive. I went looking for that set of threads, and can't find them. I thought I saved them...started with a bartcop one and then went on to "is it a huge story, isn't it a huge story, is it a huge story..." I thought there were a bunch of those.

Anyway, as I remember it the deal was that the disruptors started saying that if it didn't take out a president it wasn't a big story, and I said pretty much categorically it wasn't going to take out a president and it wasn't one story but launching a story that would become drip-drip-drip.

As you'll recall, the launch was a story about bypassing passwords, overwriting audit logs, overwriting votes, using Access databases with the security features turned off, and most importantly, (and the reason it launches drip drip drip) it was an important story that got a half-million visitors, and Scoop put the link to all 40,000 Diebold files up, so all those visitors saw that.

Then, it became a race to analyze what was on the ftp site, and the Johns Hopkins scientists were the first to publish. They mentioned that they only looked at a tiny portion of the files from the ftp site; the reason I know the drip-drip-drip will become worse is that I've looked at about 50 percent of the files by now. I can guarantee you, there is worse to come.

Sorry I can't find the links.

Bev

[ParanoidPat]

44. Yeah, Right!

:evilgrin:

[DrBB]

50. I was heavily involved in a long thread on that

This dates to just BEFORE the scoop.nz release, after Bartcop made a rather snide remark about Bev having overhyped this. It has come up a number of times, and having been involved in it early on I can testify to having read a number of Bev's posts in which she assiduously worked to lower the bombshell expectation level on some of this stuff. I can't seem to come up with the right search criteria to call up the original thread.

[Cha]

20. "The people that are pissed off at how seriously

Bev took herself" are the ones to watch out for because they aren't paying attention.
This is a very "serious" matter.

And the only reason the blackboxvoting isn't bigger is because the media is trying to squelch it.

Thanks, again, for all your Hard Work on this matter, Bev.

I heard your name mentioned on "The Mike Malloy Show" last night.

A caller said there was work out there being done by David Dill and Bev Harris on the Voter Paper Trail but it was going slow!

He talked about the "silver lining" and the "computer scientist patchwork."

I took notes but I don't understand all of it.
The caller also talked about the voting in Georgia and Max Cleland and sonny perdue. And chuck hagel "beating" Charlie Mc? in the all black district in Nebraska where he didn't even campaign!

No it's not sinsister.. :-(

[CHIMO]

23. FYI

I take this issue very seriously.

Mwybe you want to bring in a new law that unless you deny something you are guilty of acceping it!

Then support Patriot III.
Go and eat some more chocolates.

[ParanoidPat]

31. Really,

"this story does not look as big as you said it was, and that's just being honest."!

So a secretive group that has set themselves up to speak for all of the American people and proclaim themselves as the 'experts' when it comes to how best to conduct elections, is perfectly all right with you?
:shrug:

It may work for you but don't expect it to be OK with most thinking people! :)

[DagmarK]

32. Yeah, a story isn't considered "big" in the US unless there's blood

all over the place......We are kind of used to blood and guts and screaming in the streets as being the BIGGEST LEAD STORY in the news.

But a lot of thinking people actually DO see the breaking of this story as being incredibly BIG -- bigger than Bev could have ever talked it up.

Now, the little faux news fans no doubt find it very boring and, therefore, NOT NEWS - not real news. I mean, for christ's sakes, that story comprises just text on a piece of white paper! How could there be anything BIG about that? And they use big words too! Ack!

Perhaps we could appeal to the masses by running iraq invasion footage in the background while the Hopkins scientists explain the boring ins and outs of voting insecurity? Maybe that would help make the connection for you?

Because that's WHY people steal elections, btw. They steal them so that they can do whatever the hell they want in the world. And we are living with the results of that today. And that's what a FREE ELECTION is all about -- it's about the people determining what happens in their country and who is going to make it happen. It would seem that a greedy group of individuals in this country are hellbent on taking that inalienable privilege and right away from the people. That seems to be a BIG ass story in my freedom-loving mind.

And who stayed on this story? BEV. Is giving her a big thumbs up the very LEAST we can do? Sure. Not only that.....WE deserve to cheer at the prospect of shutting down election fraud. It really is in our best interest. But no one cheering, I would surmise, assumes that this is the beginning and the end of this. We may not prevail. We may not prevail. We may not prevail. And should we not prevail in revealing what sooooooo many people know to be factually true or know in their guts to be true --- I am damned glad we got to have a little champagne party that one day when the horizon cleared for that one moment. It's called "smelling the flowers" while you can.....before the mortar rains down.

Man, that tax refund (bribe) from Bush must have been a big one for you..... Those willing to be bought off by the Bush Administration seem to routinely pooh pooh the truth and minimize it.

[Generic Other]

10. The vast right wing conspiracy is a petty bunco scheme

I consider rigged votes and stolen elections to be tantamount to conspiracy to overthrow the government.

Every bit of ammo we have has to be used to maximum advantage. We are snapping at powerful mousetraps. Anything that further calls into question the legitimacy of BushCo is worth dwelling on, harping about, and exposing.

This is no time to quibble about "hype." Hell, man, you would have discouraged Paul Revere.

[sam sarrha]

13. the point is , biscuit boy, that there isn't enough time to change

a rigged system and because of a nation full of people with a nihilistic attitude like yours, the Fascists will steal another election and complete their overthrow of the nation. I'm just $50 from being homeless every month, and there are no unemployment extensions in the compassionate republican program and no jobs and no medical care for older seniors whose good jobs they've had for 20/30 years that went to china... and are not come'n home.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dweller]

22. "The last time I will say this"

if only. It's your last chance at credibility.

dp

[angka]

24. it's my fault anyway.

i'm the one who made the mistake of feeding the trolls. now look at the mess.

you run, and i'll hold them off in some kind of suicidal last stand. it'll be like in that movie.

[Melsky]

27. I think this is an incredibly important story

Is stealing the government of the most powerful single nation on earth a big story? Ummm, that would be yes. I think it is easily as big as watergate. Look at what happened to the last election. I still can't believe it.

We have in power now people who have no problem trumping up a war to create profits for their businesses. Thousands have died, money and oil roll in. Do they care about the deaths? No. Do they want to keep their position by any means neccessary? Yes.

So why wouldn't someone who is breaking a major story like this be in danger?

There have been dramatics because this is a dramatic story.

[DagmarK]

40. Even if folks like the Dalai Lama engineered election fraud

it would still be as serious.

EVEN IF saints stole an election so they could make a kinder, gentler America, it is unacceptable.

It doesn't even matter what the fraudulent ones DO after they steal an election. Our democracy is DEAD if elections are not free. And that is a principle we have always banked. In fact, it's one of the principles we have used to justify killing millions of people the world over "in the name of democracy."

[DEMActivist]

30. Take the challenge HalfMan. I dare you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=120832&mesg_id=120832

[oasis]

34. Activists, so called "groupies" and naysayers should thank Bev

for the hard work she has put into this project. It's not dominating the news today, but neither did a "third rate burglary" at the Watergate Hotel.

As Lee Iacocca one said, "either lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way".

[Rex]

35. What's the matter HMHB?

Friendless Saturdays got you down? Poor thing...is this what the thread is truly about? Your own attempt to get someone to pay attention to you? Aww...everyone give HMHB a big hug, he obviously needs one.

[DEMActivist]

36. I think you've got it, Rex!

Else HMHB would take the challenge to defend Diebold's admission in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=120832&mesg_id=120832

[Rex]

37. It's like the people who attack Will Pitt

Some people just seem to hate it when one of us (DUrs) makes it big.

[dweller]

39. Hopefully he's HM

he claims he is, and has just STFU.
dp

[Rex]

41. I've seen this trend before here

some...ahem...posters will make up a thread that is obviously flamebait (for reasons only they know) and I will watch with fascination as it grows to over 100 replies. The thread maker, on the other hand, never bothers to come back and defend his/her position. Sometimes I think they just do it to see how many people will post in the thread. Maybe they even have bets, "watch me stir the hornet's nest - 5 bucks says I get over 100 replies."

Oh well, time for sleep...

[CHIMO]

43. Could Be

But at least it keeps the rest of the interested parties in sinc.

[DagmarK]

42. Cutting people down to size is an American pastime.......

Always has been. We are such puritans. We love a winner...but s/he had better not look anything but pious. What a bummer! I wish when I had graduated summa cum laude I had chosen to throw a big PARTY for me, me, me and told people to bring presents! Cause ya know, I was a high school drop-out. Which kind of makes graduating with honors ALL the bigger.

And then at least, while I sit here weeks away from foreclosure and homelessness BECAUSE of election fraud primarily, I could at least day dream about the big party I had had way back when. "Those were the days" kind of thing.

But I didn't throw a party for myself. I remember grabbing a burger on the way home from the ceremony. I suppose when I am under that bridge taking shelter from the rain, the burger might be a nice memory but not nearly as much fun as remembering a big blow out extravaganza (sequins and all!).

So we had a little party? What's the big deal? It could very well be our last party. I am glad we did a hip hip hoorah! It was a "moment" and I absolutely LOVED sharing it with everyone AND I don't RESENT it one bit that our honorary guest was Bev Harris.

And isn't jealousy kind of the gist of having created this thread?? For shame! The puritans frowned on that one too. As Dante learned as well.

[foo_bar]

45. I gave it a shot

it's hair-splitting marketing gobbledeegoo, but they're protecting their assets not their asses.

[Trajan]

46. Its ALL about 'ME' ....

Listen to ME now, everyone ....

Im the one: its MY turn ...

I know best: .... listen to ME ....

ME ME ME ME GODDAMN IT LISTEN TO ME AND MEN ALONE ! ! ! ....

EVERYONE who disagrees with ME is a fool ....

I am the MOST IMPORTANT person here ....

Listen ONLY to me ! ....

------------------------

Ego ..........

[Wonk]

48. What it's REALLY about is the Military Industrial Congressional Complex

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=115311&mesg_id=115311

That thread keeps on dropping while lesser ones, like this one (imho), keep getting responses which kick them back to the top.

Maybe that's just my ego talking, though?

[JackieO]

47. you wish you were Half Man

:thumbsdown:

[rman]

49. you think Election Fraude is not a serious issue?

don't be silly

[Q]

51. Too bad you let the 'biscuit' part do your thinking...

...

[KFC]

52. I am still alive

And shot an 87 on a fairly tough course this am (had to brag).

No more BBV posting for me. I've certainly had a few laughs, but this is going nowhere.

I think both factions understand that major security issues were discovered through the work of Bev Harris, Johns Hopkins, and many others I don't know about. It was important and difficult work. I think the basic disagreement is the scale of importance:

1: (J Lo and Ben's upcoming marriage) to 10: (armageddon)

I'd give it about a 5 on a logarithmic scale.

Now fix them machines and go vote for Kerry.

[birdman]

53. Well, you obviously work for Diebold, hate Bev Harris ...

and want Bush reelected.


How dare you question the Knights in Shining
Black Box armor ?

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

54. lol

I think they like it when people call them "knights".

JC

[DEMActivist]

57. Actually, we prefer...

"Heros" but you can do as you please.

Can't defend Diebold's Admissions, huh, THP???? When it becomes a thread about FACTS you disappear.....wonder why?

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

58. heroes... my mistake

If you didn't act so belligerent maybe more people would bother to engage you in intelligent debate. Replying to your other thread will accomplish nothing except inspire a bunch of personal attacks and accusations, as you're well aware. Dissension is not to be tolerated and all that.

Good luck with the crusade. You're my hero.

JC

[DEMActivist]

59. ROFL, belligerent?

Me? Moi? Nooooooo!

I didn't see any belligerence in that thread....just facts....

Oh! I get it....Facts=Belligerence if your opponent can't deny the facts!!!!

[DEMActivist]

56. Poor Birdman....

couldn't address the FACTS in the Diebold Admission thread, so he comes in here to revert to his personal agenda.

How pathetically sad.

[Pobeka]

55. What an incredible statement.

Bev's taken a huge personal risk here. Note that risk and certainty are 2 different things. For the incredibly small investment of posting here once a day, she can have a whole bunch of people aware of her welfare. I wish my auto insurance was that cheap.

And what does she get out of it? Well, personally if the end result of this project is the improved protection free elections, I hope she can sell a book and make a bundle. If the end result is the election process is the "status quo", then she faces an uncertain career, because the repugs will likely slaughter her credibility.

Put things in perspective, and then ask yourself, is Bev doing *enough* to protect herself -- even if she's in a completely non-malicious accident, this project is way too important to die with her.

I give Bev 5 stars ***** for being prudent.
--
on edit -- not a good typing day, sigh...

[msmcghee]

60. WTF is happening here?

I'm reading this thread and trying to figure out why some people are actually upset that some DU'ers like Bev seem to consider this a serious issue.

IMO we on the left have many serious issues to deal with. Is it really a problem if some here find BBV to be their own cause celebre? I have only followed this issue from the periphery - dropping in to encourage and post occasionally - but very thankful at the same time that others here have adopted this issue as their own and are pursuing it relentlessly. In order to do this much work it is usually necessary for people to be very passionate about their cause.

Why would that possibly be a problem for anyone? What motivation could cause someone who truly cares about liberal values to find fault with this?

If you find this issue "not so important" as some others here I suggest you find an issue that you do feel is important enough for your efforts and then do some actual work and research on your own to help take our government back from the bastards currently in charge.

But if even that is too much to ask - you should either be appreciative of the efforts of others to help our cause - or keep your discouraging opinions to yourself. Just my opinion.


:mad: