This is what happens to 'civil disobedience'

[Tammuz]

I was just looking through the posts and I saw several reccomendations for 'civil disobedience' at the Republican convention at ground zero.

Seattle protest documentary

THIS is what happens - more laws are made and the protestors look bad.

Rove would love for some people with DEMOCRAT written on signs to start destroying stuff and causing havoc. FOX NEWS would immediately leap on it and the other channels would follow suit to compete for ratings.

[maha]

1. You link is broken.

[gristy]

2. yeah, I saw that too

There was one I remember with just 16 posts who called for "civil disobedience". Hmmmm.

[catzies]

8. There was a saying in the radical groups of the 60s...

...that you could always tell who the FBI infiltrator was because he was always the one urging the group to hurry up and blow stuff up. :eyes:

[TreasonousBastard]

3. I've got problem with Civil Disobedience.

Not in theory, but in practice.

I just can't see any point in it unless it accomplishes something. It's great to think of going down for the cause, or being seen as a martyr, but the net result lately is just getting yourself into worlds of hurt for no reason. Civil disobedience must include a high moral purpose that most people can ultimately identify with. There has to be a movement to make it work. Very few issues are as clearcut as civil rights was back in the 60's.

Right now, anyone arrested is just seen as a thug or ignored entirely. There is just no general support out there for martyrs. So far.

There are a few minor exceptions, such as the occasional treesitter protesting clearcutting, but the publicity dies down pretty fast, and the clearcutting continues after the press leaves.

[Tammuz]

4. sorry for the broken link

http://network-23.tv/video/live/

Its streamed here every 6 hours

[maha]

5. I agree

"Civil disobedience must include a high moral purpose that most people can ultimately identify with. There has to be a movement to make it work. Very few issues are as clearcut as civil rights was back in the 60's."

Does anyone have a copy of "Concerning Consent and Civil Disobedience" by Abe Fortas? I used to have one, but I don't know where it went. So I have to go by memory here.

According to what I remember Fortas said, "good" civil disobedience does not include destruction of property or injury to others. Breaking some windows because you are angry about something is not civil disobedience, but vandalism.

A perfect example of "good" civil disobedience is Rosa Parks not moving to the back of the bus. She didn't hurt the bus or anybody else; she simply refused to obey an unjust law.

Regarding demonstrations against the Republican National Convention, I can't think of ANY way civil disobedience would apply.

[NashVegas]

10. I Can Think of One

"First amendment zones."

[bvar22]

11. I disagree.

Peacefully refusing to move to a 1ST Amendment Zone would qualify as civil disobedience. I would support this decision, and encourage mass disobedience of this unconstitutional abomination.

[maha]

13. Could be.

Yes, possibly. You'd have to be very careful about that in New York. Any large gathering can turn dangerous; it's very dense here.

[aquart]

15. Worse than that. Penn Station is under guard.

If the convention is at Madison Square Garden instead of the Javitts Center, the situation is incendiary.

National Guardsmen with guns as big as they are patrol Penn Station.

Any violence of any kind will make Kent State look like a rubber ducky shoot at the state fair. These boys have big guns and no practical experience.

New York cops have experience. The National Guard boys only have firepower.

[maha]

17. Yes, I tried to explain this earlier

...on another thread. I believe it's difficult for someone not familiar with NYC to grasp the problem. I believe the convention is to be at Madison Square Garden, and therefore I believe firmly that we should be thinking of good ALTERNATIVES to trying to get close to the convention to demonstrate.

[Philostopher]

6. Rove would love it so much

He'll make damned sure it happens.

<<Rove would love for some people with DEMOCRAT written on signs to start destroying stuff and causing havoc. FOX NEWS would immediately leap on it and the other channels would follow suit to compete for ratings.>>

Who says somebody holding a sign that says 'Democrat' is one?

Which is to say, who says Democrats have to do anything wrong in order for *istas to make Dems look bad?

Do you really think they'd hesitate to do damage themselves and claim to be Democrats? If Dems don't do it for them, they'll do it themselves and claim to be Dems.

After all the stuff they've already done, would you put it past Dittoheads to put on a shirt that says 'Democraticunderground' and make a big stink or do some damage at any Repug gathering to make Dems look bad? I sure as hell wouldn't.

(edit - forgot to complete the sentence started in the "RE" line)

[maha]

7. You need to be very, very clear

what you mean by "civil disobedience." How is "civil disobedience" different from "peaceful demonstration," for example?

[Tammuz]

9. Hijacking the event sounds better

There was a suggestion of hijacking the event and makng the pubs look like a 'fart in a church'.

On the other hand - what if the convention was ignored completely?
Just an idea

[maha]

12. Hijacking?

The "hijacking" referred to a proposed counter-memorial of Ground Zero by survivors and family of victims that would call attention to the Pub's politicizing of September 11. I don't want anyone to get the impression that the Republicans would be physically hijacked.

[aquart]

16. That's why we're bringing cameras, kitten.

Try it and get your face spread across the internet.

[aquart]

14. I will have my digital camera. Any provocateur will be photographed.

I suggest that anyone else with a camera do the same. Then maybe we can match their faces with, say, boys from Delay's office.

But understand, even if the provocateurs are misguided Democrats, I will send their photos to the police myself.

DO NOT ATTEMPT TO BRING YOUR VIOLENCE TO MY CITY.

This is New York. We've had more funerals than you will ever know. And we've had enough.

Our tradition is peaceful, non-violent protest which gets its point across by sheer overwhelming numbers.

Our civil disobedience is the Martin Luther King Jr kind. We sit down.

Anyone with any other plans, STAY HOME.

[gristy]

18. What if you scheduled a "conference" at the same time

in NYC? Topic could be something like "Bush* and his lying ways". Or something like that.

For speakers you could invite John Nichols, Paul Krugman, Arundhati Roy, and others.

Would have to be organized by an organization somewhat removed from the Democrats and their party, I think.

[Q]

19. catzies made a point that some of you may overlook...

- The FBI and 'other' government agencies have an ongoing program to make all 'activists' look bad by infiltrating their groups and encouraging violence.

- They used to call it COINTELPRO...but it probably goes by another name in this new century. A couple federal agents or operatives can make a whole organization look like crazies to the public...and that's exactly the intent.

[Gordon25]

20. Declaration of Independence

...We hold these truths to be self-evident...when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security...

Appointed president. Rigged voting machines. Patriot Act. Patriot Act II. TIPS program. Suspension of habeous corpus. Total Information Awareness. Extrajudicial trials. Bankrupting the national treasury, giving it away to business partners and friends. Orders to stonewall Freedom of Information requsts. Repeated lies costing hundreds of American and tens of thousands of Iraqi and Afghani deaths. Futures Market on Terrorism in the Pentagon. First Ammendment Zones (which have been declared Unconstitutional by the Supreme Court). Treason against US Armed Forces and veterans thru reductions in pay, benefits and health care to fund corporate friendly tax policies. Stonewalling any meaningful investigation into 9/11.

What is your tolerance level.

Gordon25