If Dean is nominated, Bush will win the Electoral vote 538-0

[FuriousMNDem]

I doubt Dean can win DC!

[goobergunch]

1. Why not? (n/t)

[tomp]

2. you're just trolling for trouble, ain't ya? nt

[kentuck]

3. Angry Dem, will you vote for Dean or Bush?

Just curious?

[mandyky]

4. Beg to differ

Dumbya is going down, and Dean's the man for the job. Wait and see if you want!

[mjb4]

5. the rigged voting machines are prepared

to do that regardless of who's name is on ballot against bush...this is bush's dick hard fantasy..

[sfecap]

6. Hey! Another democrat for bush!

n/t

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

11. Another Dean supporter for losing

A vote for Dean is a vote for Bush. Why not just vote for Nader?

[sfecap]

20. Another addition to the ignore list!

n/t

[mandyky]

22. Something else, aren't they?

Who are THEY FOR? Does anyone know? Dumbya maybe..?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

31. Kucinich, Gephardt, you know - Democrats

Many of us are tired of the business as usual "centrism" of Dean. If Dean's right-wing economic theories become the norm in the Democratic party, what will be the point?

[IndianaGreen]

49. I suppose that balancing the budget is "rightwing" as you said

If so, then Clinton is the biggest rightwinger of all!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

51. it's not balancing the budget, it's his pro-corporate voodoo economics

Balacing the state budget of Vermont - well good for him. The issue is Dean's pro-corporate economics.

[IndianaGreen]

59. The issue is your anti-Dean slogans that are devoid of substance

and specificity.

Arguing with you is like arguing with a parrot, no matter what one says in rebuttal, you always come back with the "Polly wants a cracker!"

[poskonig]

64. Dean wants to repeal the Bush tax cuts.

How is this voodoo economics? Hmmm?

You're grasping at straws. Support Howard Dean!

[MODemocrat]

83. I support Howard Dean

If someone else is nominated, I will hold my nose & vote for him or
her. After all, I'm a democrat, not a fence rider.

[Mairead]

69. "If so, then Clinton is the biggest rightwinger of all!"

The biggest in the Dem party so far, certainly.

Being for a balanced budget isn't rightwing, IG, but balancing it on the back of the proles is. How can you possibly not know that?

[CMT]

79. Are you also proud of Gep's strong support of Bush on Iraq?

Gep's a good man but his strategy in '02 helped us lose seats in the house. Not only his vote for Iraq war but his strong vocal support turned me off of him as a candidate for our nomination. I'll take Dean with his mixture of moderate and liberal positions to bring back the prosperity this country had during the Clinton years and as a man who understands what a foolhardy decision it was to go into Iraq.

[Kucinich04]

104. Totally agree...

I mean its ludicrous to think that someone with completely left-wing credentials has a chance to win the nomination let alone the election. Not even me, with my moniker, believes someone like Dennis has a snowballs chance in hell. I'm just a big supporter because of what Dennis brings to the table in terms of raising issues, and to promote my own personal preference as to who I would love to get the chance to vote for even though I know it will never happen. I think Dean has just enough of the stuff that will get all left-leaners on out to the polls but also has enough stuff important to the mod. right that he could pull in some repubs who have had it with bush's deficit spending and warmongering. Having a rep. for fiscal responsibility and not being against gun ownership is a dynamite combination for bringing in the swing/centrist vote if you ask me...

Dean is my second choice after Dennis, and as such is my first choice among those that are electable, with Kerry as distant third.

[Kucinich04]

103. If Dean is the nominee?

Youre saying if Dean were the dem nominee that you wouldnt vote for him? WTF is that all about?

[Birthmark]

7. Are you taking bets?

If so, I'll take a piece of that. ;)

[UrbScotty]

8. PUH-LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Prove that he's unelectable!

Go ahead, prove it!

[dwillison]

9. Liberal New Englander. What would lead you to that conclusion?

[LoZoccolo]

10. This is one of those...

...say-it-because-someone-else-did-and-we'll-say-it-so-much-people-will-believe-it things.

[goobergunch]

12. No response. Hmmm....... (n/t)

[AWD]

13. Ummm...

...this from somebody with a Gephardt avatar??

Wow. The disconnect is staggering.

[poskonig]

14. Dean has the resources for the job.

I believe Dean takes the blue states and puts us in play in states such as West Virginia, Nevada, New Hampshire, Ohio, et cetera. He comes across as a plain, average person and has enough centrist positions to pivot seamlessly once he wins the nomination. His talented campaign team is creative and aggressive; I'm drooling to sic these guys on Bush.

What reasons do you provide for me to vote *for* Gephardt? I know where he stands on the issues and am familiar with his personality; however, I want to know what makes Geppy a winner.

[Redleg]

15. Are you serious?

Or just trying to stir up some mess here?

[TruthIsAll]

16. Go troll somewhere else...

You are one ----- -----------

[carpetbagger]

17. I'd give Dean 163 electoral votes.

Still, Dean's got a lot of work to do if he actually wants to be the President of the United States. Most of the current polls have him running about a 4% larger gap compared to the other major candidates. It doesn't seem like much, but it would have been enough to lose in 1960, 1976, and possibly to lose in 1992.

[poskonig]

A lot of that is name-recognition.

Down in South Carolina, for instance, Dean's unfamiliars are about 30% higher than other candidates. Keep in mind that we need states, not national polls. An credible argument against Dean should examine electability in the South.

[Elidor]

18. sophomoric tripe

This is the kind of penetrating analysis I would expect from George Will.

[Eloriel]

85. Oooo, not THAT's a low blow!

ROTFL.

George Will. Hahahahah

Eloriel

[sal]

19. At least we will see them debate

Before * calls marshal law.

[Terwilliger]

21. oh blarg

You have no idea and your supposition is just as useful

Kucinich could win DC given training and support.

There's no doubt that Dean could be the Dems boy. Hell, he could be "The Great White Hope," with all the implications of that in play.

[leftyandproud]

23. which is why we must nominate Kucinich!

bwahahaha! Just kidding--I'm aware dean is more popular than kucinich...but kucinich is more progressive than dean. They all have tradeoffs

[maha]

24. Buddy, I hope you don't play the stock market.

You couldn't predict your way out of a paper bag.

[JNelson6563]

25. composed thinker's friends showing up

*yawn*

[PROGRESSIVE1]

26. Dean would win...

DC (3) and Vermont (3). Remember, he's very popular in his home state and Vermont opposed the war. This means that Bush would "only" have 532 Electoral votes!!! Not as bad as 0 Votes but it would be a crushing defeat and we can't have that happen!

[poskonig]

29. Outstanding analysis!

The depth of your reasoning and the ocean of evidence you've presented have persuaded me. :+

[goobergunch]

32. The first known use of the clown smiley!

Congratulations!! :toast:

[wellstone_democrat]

90. and 3 from Democratic Rhode Island

Don't even think Bush* will take RI with a living Democrat in the race.

what a lame prediction. California ain't going Replicant and neither will Oregon.

[kentuck]

27. Come out..come out...wherever you are??

Hit and run? Don't you want to defend your opinion?

[DS1]

28. He'd win Vermont

But what an excellent in depth analysis, bravo!

[otohara]

30. Yawn

tired statement with no back up! zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[DavidNY]

33. That's so extreme as to be just as silly...

as the people who are positive that Dean will win in a landslide because of all the new voters he'll bring out. DC and states like NY, CA, MA, VT, RI are not going to vote for Bush because of Dean-- Bush has polarized the country too much to reduce any remotely plausible candidate to McGovern or Mondale '84 levels of popularity, and I think Dean does have enough experience and good enough political instincts to fall into the "remotely plausible" category. The electability problem with Dean is more in the swing states; I think he might be able to overcome it, but I do feel that he'd have "further uphill" to go than some of the other candidates. Given the importance of winning this election, that (and my concerns about his personality being a little volatile and hostile for my taste) keeps Dean out of the top couple of spots for me, though he's in my top five.

[samsingh]

34. i'm a Gore supporter

but Dean can do well.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

35. Only Dean people are allowed to call a candidate "unelectable"

Haven't you read the Dean Defense Forces rulebook? Call all the other candidates unelectable, and scream bloody murder when someone does it to Dean.

[goobergunch]

38. 6 of the 9 candidates are "electable" IMHO...

and any Democratic candidate will win DC.

[Cha]

43. I've seen your "rulebook"! Get an axe an go after Dean

Supporters! What Dribble you spout!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

48. As they say in my neighborhood

If you can't stand the hell, get out of the kitchen. Dean's people are aggressive and have no problem bashing other candidates, even on superficial tripe like hair dye and looks, yet they act so victimized when other people do it to Dean.

If the Dean supporters really thought their "New Democrat" pro-corporate candidate was going to waltz into the nomination like the priviledged, wealthy Dean seems to believe he's entitled to, they are in for a rude awakening.

The Democratic party is a lot bigger than the white, upper middle class professionals on Dean's email list.

[jbou]

61. you give me a chuckle

Dean is leading the most recent Iowa poll of caucus voters, and the funny thing is, he is leading amongst union members, hell, he leads across the board. Dean has the covers of newsweek, and Time, he'll be on Larry King tomorrow night, he's planning a cross country tour at the end of August, and then he roles into the Dem monthly debates with a nice surge. Dean is going to hire a foreign policy/military guru, and tap Gary Hart's vast knowledge on Homeland Security, and he'll be ready to handle any questions.

Dean was a conservastionist first and formost in Vermont, yes he did give tax breaks to companies to bring business to Vermont, but every politician of every stripe does that. Dean is a supporter of the working folks, but he balances that with a need for business to grow. Right now a seriously pro union candidate just wouldn't play well. Maybe after 8 years of the Dean centrist philosophy, and a good campaign run by the unions to get the pro worker message out this country would be ready for a more progressive pro labor candidate.

Dean is a solid candidate that will win the states Gore won last time and steal New Hampshire from Bush, and if you add that all up it means a victory for Dean.

Any other silly statements you want to see picked apart?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

72. pro-union candidate won't play well on the corporate media

but a pro-corporate candidate like Dean sure will. Glad I made you laugh, you have returned the favor!

"Any other silly statements you want to see picked apart?"

Yeah, get back to me :)

[jcgadfly]

111. Look up Gephardt's 2002 contribution records on opensecrets.org

and tell me who's pro-corporate again.

[ulysses]

36. ...

[Rex]

37. Another Dean bashing thread?

Why do you hate the man so? Did he stiff you a tip? :evilgrin:

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

39. Dean didn't stiff us on a tip

He stiffed us on our jobs with his pro-corporate whoring, that's what.

[goobergunch]

40. I don't mind that you don't like Dean...

but it is unrealistic that he'd lose DC.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

52. I'm sure Dean could get DC and VT and a few others

I don't think Dean could beat Bush though, unless Bush is a lot weaker than he is now.

[Rex]

44. Oh, now you have me wondering

Just what did he do to make you lose your job, and what kinda proof can you offer about his pro-corporate whoring?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

57. okay, once again

Who was supporting NAFTA? Was it the NAACP? Was it the AFL-CIO? Was it NOW? Was it AFSCME? Who wanted NAFTA and the other corporate trade agreements? Corporations. Corporate America.

So when Dean went around giving pro-NAFTA speeches, who was he speaking for? The answer is obvious.

[Rex]

63. Let's see

Bob Graham of Florida and Joe Lieberman of Connecticut? I know they are pro-business. So ya got anything as in a speech by Dean to back up your claim?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

65. Dean supports NAFTA and "free trade"

He says so himself. If you don't like his position, take it up with Dean, not me.

Yes, Dean has renamed "free trade" to "fair trade" - but just like the globalexchange person posted yesterday, changing the label doesn't change the substance.

[w4rma]

87. Dean will work to renegotiate NAFTA if elected. (n/t)

[theriverburns]

112. I can't vote for Dean ether.

"So when Dean went around giving pro-NAFTA speeches, who was he speaking for? The answer is obvious." WhoCountsTheVotes

Why should democrats vote for a man who is pro-corporate? Who won't cut defense spending? Who's health care plan, AFAIC, is a sell out. Defuse his anti war stance (and the Replicans will do that) and you are left with what? Bush with gay marriages? A fine jaw?

I have asked, repeatedly, since Deanie's Step-n-Fetchit softshoe on MTP, 'why the attraction for this guy'? And have never gotten an answer much beyond, "he can beat Bush".

Once again, why the hell should I vote for Dean when Kucinich is, by far, the better progressive candidate? When Graham is, also. Because he is better looking? Looks good on a sailboat sipping Chardonnay?

Because he can win? So he can win. At the expense of what? Four more years of boiling frogs? My job? More defense spending debts my kids will have to pay working for Mickey D's in diapers?

Anybody But Bush may, in the end, be worse than suffering four more years of Bush. Perhaps rock bottom is the only thing that will cure of from settling.

[jfkennedy]

41. Dean will not win

Dean would win 2 maybe 3 states. His campaign just came out and said they renounce liberalism. He reminds me of another Nader. In fact the Republicans so liked Nader they funded the Greens in their campaign commercials in the 2000 Selection.

As a liberal I could care less and I might have even voted for him, but he defected to the DLC republican democrats, and he did not even say why he joined the other side.

[Cha]

46. Any links or is it just your bullshit opinion we have to go on?

[goobergunch]

50. DC, RI, HI, VT, MA

I guarantee that Dean or whomever the Democratic nominee is will win those 5 states.

If I'm wrong, then feel free to call up this post and laugh at me...but I won't be wrong.

[AWD]

56. This from the guy...

...who thinks that Clark would have 67% of the vote if the elction were held today.

Yawn.

[JohnKleeb]

86. Do 67% of the people even know who Clark is?

even if Clark was like how Ike was 50 years back AWD? Ike didnt even win by that much and people were smarter back then imo. FDR keep in mind never won by that much, FDR got 61% in 1936.

[matt819]

60. Link to the renunciation of liberalism?

Blanket statements like these are fairly pointless. If you have a link to these statements, post it. If you have analysis, go ahead. But these broad predictions are useless.

[Cha]

42. Bullshyte opinion.

Are ya scrared of Dean winning like the dlc is?

[w13rd0]

45. So we should assume you'll be voting for Bush...

...right? Whatever. *poof* Another stupid thread, devoid of substance, based on fear and emotionalism.

[aquart]

47. What a gutless quitter you are.

How about letting the Democratic voters decide their candidate?

And exactly who in DC do you know who plans to vote for Bush, btw?

[WillyT]

53. Yeah, Let's All Vote For The Guys With No Eyebrows, And...

No chance of winning instead!!!

I liked Gephardt in some ways, but his scurrying down to the White House with Lieberman to be photographed kissing Monkey Pox's ASS on the Iraqi War vote, WITHOUT CONSULTING HIS CAUCUS, was an unforgiveable act of rolling on the ground, pissin straight up into the air ,in hopes of getting popular affection at the feet of this facist administration.

Sorry DICK!!! We all ready gotta DICK reamin Lady Liberty!!!

:grr::nuke::mad:

[Terwilliger]

58. LOL

man, pull no punch :D

[kysrsoze]

80. Bingo - this whole thread started by a Gephardt (closet Repub) supporter

'nuff said.

[JohnKleeb]

82. no offense but Gephardt is no republican

He may have been dead wrong on Iraq, but hes probably one of the better candiates when it comes to economics. We need to be populist and Gephardt, and espeically DK knows that.

[Isome]

54. win D.C.?

I'm confused. I didn't think people in D.C. could vote.

[Sick of Bullshit]

106. Check out the 23rd Amendment (ratified 1961)

The 23d Amendment to the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, proposed by CONGRESS on June 16, 1960, and ratified Mar. 29, 1961, granted citizens of the District of Columbia the right to vote in presidential elections--a right denied since the founding of the District from portions of Maryland and Virginia in 1802. The amendment states that the number of electors, appointed by the District government, for president and vice-president cannot exceed those of the least-populated state--or 3 votes in the electoral college; furthermore, they must be subject--as are all electors from every state in the United States--to rules of procedure set forth in the TWELFTH AMENDMENT. Congress, furthermore, was given power to legislate for the District government in order to implement the amendment. Among the provisions subsequently adopted by Congress is a 1-year residence requirement.

http://gi.grolier.com/presidents/aae/side/23amend.html

[corarose]

55. Who's campaign are you working for?

Bozo the clown could run against the piece of shit that sit in OUR WHITE HOUSE right now and win.

[shimmergal]

62. Dean's biggest liability is his lack of optimism and his anger.

Never mind positions on issues, accomplishments (or lack of) or relationship to the DLC. Those are only important to the political "elite". And yes, we're among them, by virtue of being on this board!

First of all, a successful candidate needs to project an impression of optimism and congeniality. WE all know that Bush's image in this regard is fake. But he faked it well enough to get a bunch of votes (the Supreme Court unfortunately did the rest.) He still comes across, in scripted settings, as more congenial ("a good guy to share a beer with") and optimistic than Dean does. This could change, with enough press conferences, if his true prickly nature comes out. But for now, we need a candidate who can outdo him in this image area, as well as on more substantive matters.

Edwards seems to have the "congeniality" gene but his campaign otherwise has been disappointing. I like Dean for lots of reasons, including his courage in speaking out ("I want my country back!" really resonates) but I worry about these personality factors, which are much more important to electability than most on DU seem to realize. I _think_ Wesley Clark is good on them but we won't really know until/unless he tosses his hat into the race. It's hard to see them in any other declared candidate, except maybe Sharpton, and for other reasons I don't think he's electable.

It's a problem!

[ibegurpard]

66. In YOUR opinion, of course.

My opinion is that your opinion is ignorant, knee-jerk hyperbole.

[Yupster]

67. Wow --

Bush will even win the African-American vote?

Even I'd get my tinfoil hat out if that happened.

[JohnKleeb]

70. no I think hes saying it will be divided

a third party I bet because despite Dean's war opposition, I would say the Greens would have no or little love for him, because hes not that populist on economic issues.

[JohnKleeb]

68. Come on I uncomfortable with the guy and at least he has a chance

but I would rather have someone better on economics, and I dont want someone who supported the war so Gephardt is out of the question. I want Kucinich, and paraphrasing Truman the voters have a choice between a republican and a democrat who acts republican they will go republican. Real sorry but despite Dean's opposition to the war, and he has a fair idea on civil unions, I see nothing really thrilling and different from the past, Kucinich however has more ideas that appeal to me. He's not as known as a fighter, but he is one.

[Mairead]

71. I think the real difference you're trying to bring out, John, is that

Dennis's record is of actually standing up to the wealthy elites, even though it risked (and, in the event, cost) his job and his very ability to find work.

That's not something any of the other candidates has done. Everyone ought to recognise how truly rare that is in a politician, and how important for us.

[JohnKleeb]

81. Yes

Kucinich is literally the people's candiates, he is one of us, Dean is ok but compared to Dean, well lets just say Kucinich blows Dean out of the water. Like I know all of you Dean supporters appreciate the fact that he opposed the war, but you know what gets me, he resigned as governor of Vermont, and I dont think he spoke at one anti war rally, now Dennis Kucinich, a congressman at the time and still is a congressman, actually spoke at the anti war rallies, I didnt see him at any, thats probably because I went to only one. To me it shows DK has commitment to his beliefs. DK spoke at the winter one in NYC, IIRC.

[Eloriel]

88. I don't understand your objection or dissatisfaction with Dean on

economics.

You think there's something wrong with balancing the budget?

Eloriel

[JohnKleeb]

92. of course not

I just havent seen him talk about repealing NAFTA and things like that. Its not that really, I think balancing the budget should be a priority but helping the people should be more important and to be honest maybe this isnt true but I read that Dean as governor cut medical services. or something like that. Also if we want to prevent future terrorism I think we need to be less biased on Israel and Palestine, and I think Kucinich has the better approach with this too. Dean was at odds supposely I have read with party liberals in Vermont about economics, that concerns me.

[Mairead]

107. It's all down to: on whose backs is the budget being balanced?

A balanced budget is great--so long as it's not done on the backs of working people.

[mandyky]

73. Dean naysayers are in Dean-ial!!

I am going to try to teach my kittens the trick Trippi taught his Terrier. I almost peed my pants (US News & Report article).

[opihimoimoi]

74. Dean Rocks and will KICK ASS

The Pubs are in fear of him; he being a threat to their wonderful way of life; country clubs, maids, pool cleaners, etc/

His message is IN.

[JohnKleeb]

84. its not that I dont like Dean but you know

as a social liberal and a economic populist or liberal, I dont see the latter in Dean's history, and populism is what makes the democratic party great, its why we won in the past. I want Bush out but I want change, so I want a 360 rather than a 180. I am ABB and would support Dean but there are some things that I think that he doesnt mention that he should.

[Muddleoftheroad]

75. I'm not sure who I'm supporting

But this post is a load of crap -- standard troll bait.

[ButterflyBlood]

76. DC will vote for Bush, uh huh

this is even worth replying to.

[deutsey]

77. Well, it's certainly hard to argue with that critique, ain't it?

"If Dean gets nominated, Bush will win the Electoral vote because I doubt Dean can win DC."

Well, there you have it, folks. When it comes to logic, Socrates could do no better. (sarcasm)

I can see why you don't call yourself RationalMNDem.

[mlawson]

95. Yes, he CERTAINLY TOLD US!!!!

:eyes:

[CMT]

78. 538-0?

even McGovern and Mondale did better than that. What do you back up your assessment with? And yes, any dem would carry DC. I can see you are a Gephardt supporter probably upset because Dean is doing better than anyone would have guessed a few months ago and so you're frustrated about it. I can relate to that.

[5thGenDemocrat]

89. I'll bet a nickle right now

That ANY Democrat will take Michigan.
John
Bush lost both the Republican primary and the general election here. And he ain't gotten any more popular since.

[jafap]

105. the obvious answer

Since the original poster claims Mn - how many electoral votes did Mondale get - Mn, DC, and Ct?

Anyway, a Gephardt supporter is forgetting that the ticket might be Dean/Gephardt, and the Veep is expected to bring at least 30 electoral votes.

[Jacobin]

91. I'm sorry your candidate is not doing well in the polls.

However, I believe that your prediction is quite wrong.

IraqNam is just beginning. It will be in full swing in the summer of 2004. Anyone who voted for that clusterfuck of an idea will be considered an oniony belch.

(Disclaimer: I like Dean and send him money)

[unfrigginreal]

93. Thanks for cluing me in! I'll definitely vote for Gephardt now...

NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

94. I Think Dean Has Problems But

your statement is absurd.

Mickey Mouse could carry DC if he ran as a Dem.

And he would do well in traditional Democratic strongholds-the Northeast and the West-OR, CA, and WA

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[workersunite]

97. Maybe 515 to 23 n/t

[GBD4]

98. I wonder

if any candidate of either party will ever win 538-0. I'd say no, given the fact that even FDR couldn't do this and he was a pretty popular guy! 538-0 would be some mandate!

[Pepperbelly]

99. I am going to pass on this thread and all others I see bashing candidates

and if the originator posts any more like this, they will be put on ignore.

[Stuckinthebush]

100. Cut it out

This is getting old....

I propose that all flame bait threads like this are ignored by DUers from this point forward.

[Pepperbelly]

101. see my post just above this ...

that's what i am going to do with each flamebait thread i see.

[Kanola]

102. You really must want Bush to win with that defeatist attitude

[enki23]

108. do you hate dean more than you hate torturing kittens?

how can you spend all this time attacking dean, when all this kitten torture is still going on?

[phillybri]

109. This is bullshit....

Please stop...

[whoYaCallinAlib]

110. I second that.

It's gotten a little carried away with emotion and nobody is persuading anyone about anything.