godless Americans stand up and be counted

[mopaul]

ellen johnson is on c-span sat. morning, executive director of godless americans political action cmte.

as usual, callers are shocked and angry to see anyone suggest that there is not a god, or that the u.s. is NOT a theocracy. still, in this modern day, atheists are compared to child molesters and killers.

atheists are not demanding an elimination of religion, they simply want to be included in our government, and they want to make sure that insane christian conservatives don't turn us all into the taliban.

atheists support freedom of religion. i certainly do. but i want to be open and unafraid of saying that i don't believe in a god, without the threat of death, from zealots.

prayer in school. evolution vs. creationism. anti muslim hatred.
the 10 commandments. gay marriage. these are the repeating themes that come up whenever the subject of religion comes up.

athiests simply want to be included as equals, not to take over the world, like some crazy christians.

[displacedtexan]

1. We can't possibly be 'good' without god?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!

[Guava Jelly]

2. Oh sweet Bearded Baby haysoos

she was great..Id like to get her naked and check for sixes :)

[mopaul]

4. i'll bet she has a pointed tail too

and those little 'goat bumps' on her forehead under her beautiful hair

[Muddleoftheroad]

3. Gay marriage

Although I support gay marriage, you don't understand that many religious people oppose it as a moral, not just religious, issue. For religious people (and non-religious ones as well) all their beliefs are intertwined and you can't separate one from the other.

[mopaul]

5. oh but i DO understand

don't tell me i don't

[BiggJawn]

7. But their "moral" arguments fall flat, too.

This does trace back to a common tennet of Theology that people can not be moral with out a belief in some sky-daddy, doesn't it?
Ken Lay or Dick Cheney are more moral than 2 guys who want to get married after being together 20 years? I don't understand, and I doubt I could accept that.

[Muddleoftheroad]

14. "Sky-daddy?"

Nice offensive term. Keep up the good work.

And you don't have to accept what your opponents say, but you don't have to accept that they don't believe as you do and have a right to speak out.

Personally, I think morality is just part of our beliefs and that anyone can be moral.

[mopaul]

15. 'our father, who art in heaven'.....hence....sky daddy

whats the problem? you take offense where none is intended

[Muddleoftheroad]

17. Phony rationalization

I take offense where terms are used to mock as this was.

[mopaul]

18. perhaps your god will strike him down

for daring to mock him. maybe god is too busy, maybe you should do it instead

[Muddleoftheroad]

21. Neither

My God is unthreatened by mockery. And I am simply annoyed that anti-religious attitudes are tolerated on a progressive website.

[mopaul]

23. i'm NOT anti-religious, didn't you read the post?

i support religious freedom, how many times do i have to say it?
you seem very intolerant yourself

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. I am intolerant of intolerance

And I view your posts in totality.

[mopaul]

27. i tolerate you don't i?

i tolerate my mother who speaks in tongues, and my brother who drags a huge cross down the street every year at mardi gras, i tolerate jerry falwell and pat robertson, i tolerate muslims, catholics, etc.

i take offense at your name calling dude. (or dudette)

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. I haven't called anyone in this thread a single name

So no name-calling is occuring on my part.

[mopaul]

31. you called me intolerant

and i'm not, so excuse me if i'm offended......like you

[Muddleoftheroad]

37. Where?

[Az]

36. Ok, here is the way it works

When you use a comment that you know is dismissive of someone elses charished beliefs they will think you will immediately think you are an idiot and not listen to anything further you have to say. Skydaddy definately qualifies as dismissive.

On the other hand, when religious individuals gather and discuss their religion, not believing in god is sited as an evil thing. Clergy and all manner of representitives of different religious beliefs castigate atheists as monsters and mentally ill. These accusations build up and we tend to take offense to them. Thus there will be individuals who feel a certain amount of pent up anger towards these groups.

Work it out people. Do not slug it out. That way leads to where we came from, and its rather dark back there.

[Muddleoftheroad]

48. I understand that many religious folks are intolerant

They are wrong in that and I am more than happy to say so.

Thanks for the mediation attempt.

[ldf]

84. the problem is

it is always us lefty atheist types that tell the "christians" they are intolerant. so we are immediately dismissed.

that responsiblility should be borne by the other "christians" who feel the same way.

the "true" christians need to take back their religion from the frauds, the same way the true believers of islam need to take their religion back from the hatefilled terrorists.

that battle is going to have to take place within christianity, and within islam. until the true christians and muslims face the job they have to do, the rest of us are the ones who will suffer at their hands. WE all "just want to get along", mind our own business and live our own life as best we can by making the best decisions for ourselves that we can.

god is love? yeah, and the scriptures also say god is a jealous and vengeful god. and just look at what he has begat.

as far as taking offense, my big question is "does god sit or stand when he has to pee?"

and the answer to that is another pandora's box.

[oneighty]

138. God pees?

Wow!

180

[earthman dave]

118. Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

ahah ahaha hahahahahahahahahahaha <snort> hehehehehehehehehe .... HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh that's priceless. Thanks!

[atreides1]

34. But Shouldn't...

...a progressive website welcome all attitudes, whether you agree with them or not.

[mopaul]

39. i DO welcome all attitudes.....who said i didn't?

i welcome any attitudes, atheist, hindu, hell, i don't care, i'll listen to a pedophile's attitude. i simply suggest you do the same

[Muddleoftheroad]

41. Wow

I set more limits. I will NOT listen to a pedophile's comments.

[ParanoidPat]

143. WWJD?

:evilgrin:

[Muddleoftheroad]

40. Actually, no

A progressive website should not welcome bigotry and racism.

I am not calling for universal censoring of views, but a progressive website should (and does) set limits on hate speech.

[Malva Zebrina]

Bigotry is inherent in most religions

that is what I think that believers do not understand. It is so commonly accepted that religion and a belief in a god is what any full blooded American must believe and be respected for, that the notion that it is bigoted against non theists does not enter their mind. Well, it is bigotry.

So once more, almost every religion teaches that atheists are not acceptable persons, and further, will, according to their dogma beliefs, be punished in some horrible way.

There is no mainstream religion that accepts atheists as viable members of society--or if they do, they take great pains to point out that these atheists are lacking something--something that, of course, the faithful defenders of the faith have. We atheists often wonder what that can be--it is often described as "grace" :shrug: . Library shelves are full of treatises from ministers, priests an others on the evils of atheism.

See?

[Muddleoftheroad]

It ain't bigotry

To say that your believers go to heaven. That's a belief system. You are not forced to join and I don't know a single Christian, Jew or Muslim who wouldn't deal with you, be friends with you, work with you or whatever if you hold different beliefs.

Religious people are naturally uncomfortable with folks who say that our beliefs are wrong just as atheists feel the same around us. That isn't bigotry. It is bigotry when it evolves into name calling and hatred.

Personally, I don't claim to know universal truth. I know what works for me and mine.

[Malva Zebrina]

74. Muddle, I suggest you read up on some rules of logic

It may be hard for you to grasp this, as you believe your religion and your faith is the most accepting, most liberal, most Jesus like one can embrace. I understand that there would be resistance to the idea that bigotry does indeed exist within the tenets of that religion.

Go and look it up in any catechism. It is there in black and white for you to read. If you do not like that fact, well it is up to you, a believer, what you want to do about it.

I am not saying a damn thing about believers and their beliefs--except to point out a truth:

mostly every mainstream religion has as part of it's dogma that atheism and those atheists are evil people who will be punished in some way by the god they believe in. OK? This is , by every interpretation, known as bigotry.

I am not telling you not to believe, not telling you you are wrong to believe , or making fun of your beliefs

. I am pointing out that bigotry, no matter how much people would like to think that their religion is not bigoted according to the liberal beliefs of Jesus or whatever, a bigotry indeed DOES exist within the tenets of that faith.

I hope that clears up the misunderstanding attributed to my post

[mopaul]

75. i'm sure christ would have accepted atheists

as he spoke of acceptance and tolerance. sure, he would'nt have agreed with them, but he probably would've had discussions with them.

of course, you never hear about a lot of atheists running around 3000 years ago

[Malva Zebrina]

100. Hmmm

Jesus did have some admonitions against accepting the Gentiles into his fold.

Early Christians, interestingly, were considered atheists because they did not believe in the Roman gods.

[Beetwasher]

122. IMO, Religion Is Institutionalized Bigotry

"My idea of god and universe is right and I'm going to be rewarded for it, everyone else is wrong and will be punished." Ergo, everyone else is lacking and inferior in some way to the believer. No way to get around that.

The bigotry is such a fundamental part of religious faith that it's hard for believers to grasp. Nose on your face syndrome.

I suppose there are some religions or belief systems that are less so than others or even perhaps not really bigoted at all, but a good deal of religious belief is essentially institutionalized bigotry, IMO, of course.

[Muddleoftheroad]

127. That's just false

Sorry you don't like that some people have faith and others do not, but it is not bigotry to believe in God.

You are welcome to believe or not. It is up to you.

[Beetwasher]

130. Odd Way to Characterize an Opinion

False? In your opinion only. It has nothing to do w/ like or dislike on MY part. You may personally have found some balance in your belief, but you'd be then the exception, not the rule, or perhaps it's so ingrained you can't even see it.

But your response that my opinion is false, speaks volumes. That right there is bigoted. It's my opinion on a subject for which there's nothing to make it true or false in any logical or objective sense, and yet you insist my opinion is wrong, therefore you have the superior position. That's bigotry, so ingrained you're not even aware of it.

[stepnw1f]

116. Sorry...

Religion is based on fear and bigotry. I think it's time humans evolve from traditional religious systems. All I ever hear in these arguments are statements how great religions are... none of which there is any proof.

[Athame]

77. Well, I don't know if you call Unitarian Universalists mainstream

but they definitely tolerate atheists as viable members of society. The UUA, I'll grant you, has been moving toward a sort of generic Christianity in recent years, but the Atheists still have a large table at every district and general assembly. I won't say it has not caused considerable tension in many congregations, but the Humanists are a proud part of our heritage and will not be silenced.

[Malva Zebrina]

124. I have a few atheist f riends that like to attend the UU meetings

I am not sure if I would call UU a religion. To them it is not a religion anyhow, but more like an ethical culture meeting. Some just enjoy the social aspects and like the intellectual flavor of it--I have never been to one so I am taking their word for it. I would not consider the UU a mainstream religion.

[Nay]

80. Unitarian-Universalist churches welcome atheists, and Buddhists

do, too -- Buddhism being basically a godless religion. But I understand the point you are making.

[sangha]

97. Hinduism too

Hinduism does not require a belief in God. It's amazing how people use their ignorance of other religions to make statements about ALL religions

[ParanoidPat]

144. Hate speech?

:shrug: :evilgrin:

[JNelson6563]

38. not true

There's a story in the bible where a few dozen kids mocked an agent of your god. Your god then sent a "she-bear" to tear them to shreds.

Julie--who often marvels at how little believers know of their own holy book

[Muddleoftheroad]

43. I know my own book

And I am a Christian which means I focus on the New Testament and my God is the God Christ taught us about.

[Az]

45. Um

Ok, probably a bad place to continue this discussion but, are you saying that the god that sent 2 bears to maul 42 children because they called a prophet baldy is not the same god that Jesus talked about?

[mopaul]

47. we are happy for you

and if you are so confident in your beliefs, then you shouldn't be so frightened by those who don't agree with you

[Muddleoftheroad]

51. I am not frightened by anyone here

I am annoyed that religious folks are mocked and scorned.

[mopaul]

56. only the bad ones are scorned

we have no problem with clear headed religious people. we just don't want pushy zealots. and i'm not calling you one, i'm just making the distinction

[Muddleoftheroad]

59. I wish that were true

But many of the religion comments bash ALL religious folks, not just the zealots.

[Generic Other]

107. Germans always feel like comments about Nazism bash them

Doesn't mean we aren't entitled to make the comments.

At least intelligent Germans acknowledge their evil history and understand why it is still criticized. They've also quit being Nazis.

When religious folks quit being so intolerant against others for not believing in their spectral evidence, they may quit hearing so many criticisms of their behavior. As far as I can tell, it has never stopped even for an instant. Persecution, Inquistion, heresay trials, shunning, judgment, eternal damnation, pogram, jihad, trial by fire, torture, crusade, etc.

I have yet to hear of any organized athiest groups either advocating or participating in such brutality against humanity simply in the defense of godlessness.

All monotheistic religions are absolutist and exclusivistic. One world view--yours--does not equal universality.

You can get on your high horse all you like, but the truth is always going to be a burr stuck under the saddle. And that horse is going to buck.

[Muddleoftheroad]

111. When comments bash religion or the religious

They do indeed bash all of us, not just the select few.

The reason why no groups of atheists are typically implicated in anything has to do with both size (tiny by comparison) and lack of organization.

[Generic Other]

136. Nonbelievers don't care to force others to believe as they do

just as they don't wish to be forced to bend their knees to other's beliefs.

Your beliefs in the abstract are not sacred to those who do not share them. They are not immune from being scrutinized, challenged, and questioned.

If nonbelievers are such a small group as you suggest, why are they always such a threat to your worldview? Seems as if their very existence is an affront to many.

I will tell you why. Because they have lived examined lives. They have reached reasonalble and logical conclusions based on evidence. Like Galileo. Remember him? Forced to recant the truth so as not to challenge the beliefs of his day. Faith precludes thinking. It says in spite of evidence to the contrary, the faithful will maintain their beliefs.

And they are entitled to promulgate, give testament to and argue their beliefs. However nonbelievers also have a right to find the arguments as simplistic as a belief in Santa or the tooth fairy. Believers do not have a right to condemn, judge or destroy nonbelievers and then whine when they are themselves judged harshly.

They do not have the right to stand in front of nonbelievers with their messages of redemption and salvation offered at the point of a gun.

When I meet individuals who tell me they are Christian, I look to their lives for proof. I do not generally believe that those who defend dropping nuclear bombs on innocent civilians are followers of Christ. I do not believe that those who wage war against their neighbors, who build weapons while others starve, who deny their own people medicine while enriching themselves and building lavish monuments to god are true believers. No they are hypocrites and liars who themselves have turned more away from their beliefs than all the athiests who have ever lived could do.

By the company you keep, so shall we know you.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

141. Well said.

History has lessons for those who wish to learn.

[JNelson6563]

70. then why the erroneous statement?

You cannot simply wish away the old testament, it exists and is part of your religion. Someone thought it should be and I think that was a mistake but that's neither here nor there.

The fact of the matter remains that indeed, according to the bible, your god will slaughter those who mock him/his representatives and you claim this to be untrue. Is the bible wrong or are you?

Julie

[sangha]

98. False assumption

Not all Christians believe that every word of the Bible is literally true. Some people believe that stories like that are merely metaphors and that God did not send bears to kill those people. Some of the stories mean nothing more than that sin has a price.

To suggest that God has a personality of any sort is a gross misunderstanding of what Christianity teaches.

[JNelson6563]

103. No misunderstanding

Throughout the bible are horrible stories of God's retribution. Also throughout characteristics and personality types are attributed to God. "My God is a jealous God...."

And if your metaphor theory is true, then what are those metaphors designed to teach? Fear.

Julie

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. I only vaguely remember J.Carlos

And it's not a thin skin to complain about anti-religious comments that are common here.

[9215]

83. Nice one. IMO it is a

slick way of manipulating people to defer to some BS Supreme Being.

[9215]

86. nt

.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

25. How can someone "mock" a non-entity? Now, if he were mocking

you, I could understand your vitriol. However, he did not mock people who believe in fictions, so no foul.

Peace, dude.

[Muddleoftheroad]

28. The ongoing battle

Between "progressives" who seek to chase away all religious folks from the party by mocking their beliefs and realists who know that such a "pure" party would lose every election including dogcatcher.

[mopaul]

30. onward, christian soldier

you're a good fighter, and you're always there to defend you're god.
admirable. but no one is attacking you

[Muddleoftheroad]

32. You just don't see it

It's much like white people who don't see the discrimination blacks face every day with every racist joke or lost job opportunity.

[mopaul]

35. i don't see it cause IT AIN'T THERE

you aren't discriminated against at all. have you lost a job opportunity cause you are a christian. please.

[Muddleoftheroad]

44. Here, religious folks are often abused for their faith

And so HERE is where I am focusing.

[Az]

58. Anger building, Rage going out of control

Discrimination is not just forcing someone out of a job. You make fun of someone's cherished belief (even if you personally think they are assinine) and they are going to be offended. It doesn't matter if you mean no harm from it towards the person. If I call someone a nigger or a cipple they may well take offense even if I somehow chose those words without meaning to offend.

The following phrases are likely offensive to believers of god

Skydaddy
Invisible space monster
Imaginary friend
Deluded believers

Use these phrases or anything similar to them and you are going to piss people off. That is fine if that is what you want to do. But if you are trying to find your way through a diverse society and build something along with these people its pretty freaking stupid as you gain nothing and lose a lot in doing this.

We don't have to agree with their beliefs. We can even express concern that their systems of religion may present a threat to the world. But we can do so in contructive positive ways that enable us to continue communicating with them. If we keep kicking them in the shins while we talk to them they will simply conclude that we are a bunch of hate filled monsters and that maybe we should be shipped back to where ever we came from (as soon as they can figure that out).

Stop insulting their beliefs! Its just stupid and hurts us. /rant off

[Muddleoftheroad]

62. Damn!

Very well put.

And even better with the Spiderman graphic.

[mopaul]

66. name calling never bothered me, after i became an adult

if someone calls me a nasty name, i am unaffected. really. i'm crippled, but if someone said, 'hey mo, you're a dirty cripple', i'd just laugh.

insults only work if you let them

but for the most part, i agree with you az

[Muddleoftheroad]

68. I've had a lifetime of it

And I do NOT walk away. Someone calls me a "nigger" or any of the endless racist nicknames that have been created for my people and they get me coming right back at them.

The same goes here.

[mopaul]

69. atheists are fighting for the same things black people fought for

just like gays today, using the civil rights example the black americans set up so well. i've always been for civil rights and equality for all, and now, i want to be included as an atheist.

it seems that just about all religious people, of any color, hate atheists. why?

[Muddleoftheroad]

71. I don't hate atheists

I don't agree with belief, but I don't hate them.

And I have no problem with their freedom of religion or lack thereof.

I think both sides of this debate see the other side as the enemy because they don't believe the same. I don't feel that way, but I respond negatively when I see hatred used by either side.

[mopaul]

73. & i don't hate you....let's kiss and make up

we are after all, on the same side

[Muddleoftheroad]

81. Same side

but no kissing. I don't know you that well. ;)

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

46. This is a thread about atheism... No one is trying to chase

anyone away from the party. Tolerance of others is a good thing and it works both ways.

There are several religious people in my neighborhood and I assure you that I never go to their meeting places or their homes to mock them. BUT, when they come knocking on my door to "save" me, they open up a whole new can of worms.

How many atheists have ever knocked on your door to inform you that YOUR belief system is wrong and you will spend eternity chased by imps with pitchforks in a lake of fire if you didn't change?

[Muddleoftheroad]

53. You and I have had this debate

And we wildly disagree. If someone knocks on my door in an attempt to do me good, I am not rude, I simply say that I am not interested and move on in life. You take it as a mortal offense.

Tolerance should include that much.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

64. "in an attempt to do me good" ????

From my POV, they are coming to assault my belief system. It's RUDE.

Ignorance and fairy tales purported as reality are not the things I want to hear on my doorstep. I don't like making these poor misguided people feel bad and I don't like to have to hide my beliefs in my own home so it leaves me in a conundrum every time.

[mopaul]

67. no shit!

i don't need religious people of any stripe to come to my door during dinner or a shower to 'help' me. if i want to go to church, there are thousands of them all around me. or i could purchase a bible or koran and read it on my own, don't need bothersome door to door 'salesmen'.

joke: my uncle is half jehovah's witness, half atheist....he'll knock on your door for no fucking reason at all

[Beetwasher]

123. LOL!

That joke is friggin' hilarious! You dirty fucking cripple! ;-)

[ParanoidPat]

145. Thank You! I so share your POV!

:evilgrin: :thumbsup:

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

114. I found the perfect answer...

(Broadband suggested)

http://otherside.junik.lv/misc/inquisition.mp3

[arrogantatheist1000]

121. it was funny some atheists tried this in 'liberal' california

I should find the website where they did it on and link it.

Anyway they went from house to house teaching people about atheism and why god worships were flawed. They said hey we hang out with some rough people but NEVER had we heard the type of swearing we got.

Every house owned SLAMMEd the door in their face and screamed horrible curses even in front of their children. They had guns pulled on them. People ran for their kitchens and grabbed knives.

Christians are not tolerance anymore then islamists are. People have threatened to beat me down if I didn't stop talking about atheism to MY friends in a public place. Luckily I am a very large man who goes around armed so I never stop. However many people are too afraid to even talk of their own beliefs in a public place.

They get called 'evil' and 'devil worshippers'. I've heard many stories of teenage girls who wore anti christain t-shirts literally being beaten by the police. Not to mention their neighbours and 'schoolmates.'

However christains can wear t-shirts about how all non believers will die in hell, yet atheists can't even question god remotely.

MuddleoftheRoad it sounds like you are one of the extremely rare tolerant christains. You have your beliefs but don't care what other believe. You also don't care if someone is telling someone else and trying to 'convert' them to atheism.

Most christains are not this way. I have never believed in God. I have enjoyed talking about it with my friends when we get together. Among many other things we talk about. Whenever we talk about atheism the people near us get VERY VERY uncomfortable. And the 'dominant' male that is with them usualy comes over and tells us to shut the @#$$@ up. As I said I'm a rare case because I am so strong, and so willing to use violence to defend my freedoms.

Other people are not this way. Many people I know won't talk about atheism in a public place when it comes up they start talking in whispers and try to change the subject. They are afraid.

The fundamental problem is that christianity is a meme. And for memes to spread they cannot allow skeptical beliefs to infiltrate their ranks. They have multiple paths against this including telling their members that if they do not have complete faith they won't go to heaven. How do I know this? Thats what my preacher told me when I was a young boy. I was asking too many questions. And this was catholism in a VERY liberal area.

The meme will always favour more and more radical and unflinching versions. Just as we see envangelicism taking over today. in 1950 only 10% of american protestants were evangelicals. Today nearly 60% are. And it will always go like that.

I wish it didn't I wish people could have reasonable beliefs, but the nature of religious meme's demands fundamentalism to stay intact. I have read extensively on this and the more I have read the more clear this becomes.

Remember people like pastors depend on their very livelyhood for their members staying. Now they hear an atheist trying to break one of their flock away? This is literally what is putting food on their table for their children. Of course they fight against it with GREAT fury. As would I if that was my source of income.

Their are a huge number of factors like this that force the memes to be aggresive and bigoted.

[mopaul]

134. you seem like an interesting character

i think i will try to emulate you. my brother is a hardcore bornagain, who is not afraid to embarass himself in public places.
so, i should be equally as bold.

[Muddleoftheroad]

135. The 1950s vs. today

You claim that is the nature of a "meme" to become more radical.

Are you sure you are analyzing the situation in an unbiased way. Things in the world and around the U.S. have changed a whole lot in 50 years and more traditional religious people are not at all comfortable with those changes.

* Sex -- it's everywhere these days. It you watch a PG movie, you see sexual references that didn't hardly exist in 1950s films. If you watch R, you see a whole host of stuff people didn't even discuss in mixed ocmpany.
* Promiscuity -- Birth control made that a fact of life.
* Violence -- We definitely have more violence now than in years past. Some of the sick crimes that get committed are enough to make a non-believer think these are the end times.
* The destruction of marriage -- Marriages used to be a stable aspect of our society. They are no longer.
* Out of wedlock births -- These are so common in America these days, it's amazing.

Any traditional Christian type seeing these and many more things going on around him or her is likely to be pushed toward the safety and sanity of traditional religion.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

142. "Traditional Religions?????" Like the Presbyterians, Episcopalians

Lutherans? Roman Catholic?

Or one of the plethora of newly established (since 1820) religions that proffers to have the only "true" word of God?

Since when would a "traditional church" need a big screen for concerts, a sound room, a gymnasium?

Here in the SE, they are big business building edifices to greed and conspicuous consumption. If there were a God, he would have run out of lightning bolts by now.

[JNelson6563]

49. no one wants to chase anyone off

My local party is made up of both believers and unbelievers. We all get along fine, respect each other's views and work hard to achieve our common goals.

It's a beautiful thing. Being very knowledgable about the bible as I am I can even participate in religious discussion that comes up. They have found I am helpful at providing bible quotes and are often embarrassed I know it and they don't. I do make sure I don't use offensive language, more of a "just the facts" approach.

Every once in a while a playful dig may fly, always laughed off. It's partof the give and take of folks with different views. I recommend you take a whack at not being so easily offended.

Julie

[Muddleoftheroad]

54. Your local party sounds ideal

Things here are not that ideal. We have gone through several rounds of religious wars at DU, including one so bad the Mods shut down all religious discussion for a time.

So my response to the daily digs must be seen in that context.

[mopaul]

63. that shut down on religious discussion was partly my fault

cause i dared to use the word 'myth', and the term 'invisible man in the sky' which some took as offensive. i've learned a bit of a lesson from it, but i'm still concerned that religous fanatics are destroying our government, and to me, that is highly offensive.

i assume you have already alerted me as a flamer, and are now preparing to shut this thread down

[Muddleoftheroad]

65. Fanatics

I fear fanatics of all sorts. I fear religious fanatics. I fear political fanatics. I fear the extremes and in that we can agree. But I won't embrace one extreme (the anti-religious one) to battle another.

Yes, those words you mention above are classic examples of some of what we cope with at DU. However, I have not alerted on any posts in this thread. Nor do I have the ability to shut down a thread.

[JNelson6563]

72. I see, so you approach new discussion

carrying the baggage of the old. Perhaps you shouldn't. Clear vision might contribute to more productive discussion.

I was here for the religious wars, I remember it well. There was a certain religious poster here trying to promote his web-site and beliefs and was way out of hand posting about religion. Those posts were obnoxious and preachy and not fit for a political discussion board.

As to my local party being ideal, people are always more reasonable in real life. Hididng behind a screen-name often gives people the idea they don't have to use common courtesy. Sadly.

Julie

[Muddleoftheroad]

79. I wish people were more reasonable in real life

Sadly, many are just as unreasonable as their online personas.

The religion wars I speak of include the most recent ones that still seem to percolating.

[9215]

89. Are you suggesting we compromise our principles for

political expediency?

That, IMHO, is exactly what is wrong with religion today. It needs to stay out of politics and there are many people, people of the cloth, who feel the same way.

The Separation of Church and state is essential to the survival of this democracy.

[Muddleoftheroad]

110. The separation many here want is impossible

You can't separate my moral views from my religious ones. Most religious folks are like that. We vote based on who we are and we are a collection of beliefs that includes our religion.

[9215]

137. Let me get specific. Do you think that the US Dept of Parks or

whatever Dept. is caretaker for the Grand Canyon should be informing the public that it was created by the Great Flood? This in fact is what people read on plaques at the Grand Canyon. It is precisely this kind of blatant BS that will occur when religious zealots have their way. They will destroy a rational intelligent Public Sector.

What these believers are doing is setting about to destroy science--the truth. It has happened at different times in history and today there is this huge wave of ignorance sweeping this country that threatens the survival of this specie. The Biblical Reconstructionist movement has every intention of destroying Constitutional government and replacing it with Biblical Law and Bush has started that process with his "deficits don't matter" policy.

What galls me is the sleazy sneeky way they are going about it. Why dont' they be honest and come out and say what their plan is instead of lying to people about it?

I'm going to tell you that I have no more patience for it. I would never have a friend who encourages religion in the Public Sector, these people are as big a threat as any terrorist.


Get God out of Government or there will be Hell to pay!

[Trajan]

119. Take all the offense you wish ....

Now hear this: ...

I reserve the right to 'mock' any and all supposed Deities, whether Vishnu, Allah, YHWH, Marduk, Shiva, Asherah, Enki, or Zeus , et al ...

Isnt freedom wonderful ? ...

[Muddleoftheroad]

128. Oh freedom is wonderful

Too bad civility is lost in the process for some.

[Trajan]

132. Civility is for Tea Parties

And Bridge games ...

Civility means little to those standing on the gallows of the righteous ....

[neebob]

33. Exactly

and immoral people, but this definition of immoral, are not allowed to have rights.

My mother is a good example of this mentality. She insists the Evil War Chimp is a good person, even prays for him and defends his evil ass even though she's never met him and it's beyond obvious that he doesn't give a hoot about her - not to mention the outrageous lies that come out of his mouth every time he opens it - simply because he pretends to share her narrow-minded little black and white morals. It overrules every bit of logic and common sense that I know she has. She just refuses to use these faculties in reference to Bush or any of his mouthpieces.

I'd rather tell my mom that God doesn't exist than George W. Disgustingbush is not a good person. It brings on less of an argument.

[Vladimir]

126. No one is forcing *them* to get married

I agree its a fundamental problem : separating the church and state means denying the evangelicals the right to harp on at other people about how they should live their lives. You have the right to practice a religion, but not to make others conform. I know plenty of evangelical Christians myself, for example, so I know where they are coming from. At the same time, though, the right to personal beliefs is only tenable in a society if those beliefs do not entail practical action which infringes on another group's beliefs.

I happen to be an atheist myself. I waould also say I am profoundly amoral - but to me that kind of comes with the territory.

V

[Muddleoftheroad]

129. But again, an impossible standard

We make tons of laws that are based on morality. From abortion to prostitution to the death penalty, many of our laws are grounded in morality. You can't expect people to vote contrary to their own deeply held beliefs.

[Vladimir]

131. No indeed

I agree its a fundamental problem. I don't think it will be solved until people start getting away from the idea of morality as some guiding light in their lives.

What I would say, within the present system, is that I recognise the need to present arguments in moral terms. That's part of the game as it were.

V

[Terran]

140. what exactly are these "moral" arguments, if they're not based in

religion? The religious argument at least provides a basis, however mixed up, for disapproving of homosexuality. Beyond that, can you describe more specifically what moral arguments there are?

[Az]

6. Been jumping around for years now making sure I got counted

Gotta make a positive impression on the world and show that godless does not mean monster. Do the good deeds. Put the stickers on the cars. Get noticed being decent godless fellow citizens. Make the focus that we are good people who are also atheists.

[mopaul]

9. atheists are actually very moral people for the most part

they are intelligent, objective, level headed, and not demonic as religious types believe. if you have a flat tire, an atheist is just as inclined to help you as a christian or hindu

[Az]

12. The trick is

To get involved. One aspect of atheism is it tends to isolate us from some of the larger circles of social life. This may lead some to withdraw in other ways. Thus people are not exposed to us or may not even be aware that there are atheists amongst them. We have to take some cues for the formely closeted homosexual community. They are a minority that is not easily recognised and were shut in the closet for an eternity. They have largely broken out now and though there are still battles to be won they are doing so proudly. We are still pariah. We need to shatter the images held about us.

[NC_Nurse]

8. I'm a spitritualist, I guess

not an atheist, but I believe we all have a right to a spiritual connection to whatever we choose. Organized religion makes my skin crawl because they're basically taking away your individual connection with the Divine and replacing it with a "group think" idea of the Divine based on other people's experience, and then they want you to indoctrinate others to think/be/behave just like them. EEEEWWWW!
What's that got to do with true spirituality? It's the friggin' easy way out if ya ask me! "Here, don't ever wrestle with the issues yourself, just follow our simple blueprint for being "good" and rain down intolerance for anyone who doesn't believe in it. :wtf:

[mopaul]

11. believers & non-believers CAN work together

if they'll only try. i've changed my approach, and i will continue to change over time i'm sure. i'm surrounded by christians, my whole family are christians, and i don't want to have a war with them.
i want us to all get it together and beat fascism

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

50. You sound like a mystic to me

in that mystics stress a personal experience with the Divine, and don't tend to try and indoctrinate anyone into thinking like they do. I know that Sufis, for example, welcome everyone to their ceremonies, but do not recruit members but rather make someone seek them out if they wish initiation. In my experience, there is no compulsion to do anything; what one does to get along the spiritual path is up to oneself. There are teachers and guides, but they acknowledge their humanness and make suggestions rather than give orders.

Peace with you as you go along your path.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

10. I would, but I'm afraid some "good Xtian" might gun me down.

[mopaul]

13. there are zealots who WOULD kill you

not just crazy christians, but any crazy person of any denomination.
there are mad dog killers of all religious stripes running around creating havoc in the world.

[Muddleoftheroad]

16. Mad dog killers

There are mad dog killers of ALL stripes in the world, religious, political, non-religious, etc.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

20. No doubt... But in Northern Alabama, my chances of getting "offed"

by a Buddhist zealot are pretty slim.

Many here have the conception that the "Christian Soldier" should be very well armed. Seems pretty incongruous with my understanding of Christ's message...

Good to see you back posting, mopaul. Love your new graphic!

[TheWebHead]

19. I agree politically with this PAC's objectives 100%...

but I'm a little turned off by the 'Godless' tag... It's as if they don't want any support from agnostics. They really should soften the tone or at least give some acknowledgment to agnostics on their website.

[rexcat]

55. You have to consider where Ellen Johnson is coming from...

She is President of American Atheists, Inc., and the members of the organization (of which I am one)are fed up with the intolerance, hatred and bigotry that christians in this country show us at every turn. The Godless March in DC last year and other like demonstrations are to show government officials that we are a large block of voters and should be recognized and respected as we do other groups. The other issue the organization and some of the humanists organizations are emphasizing is to get out of the closet (so to speak) and be heard and counted. IMO to soften the tone at this point would be counterproductive.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

42. I support your position

And the fundies have it wrong when they say this country was founded on Christianity. It was founded on the principles of the Enlightenment. Jefferson did not call himself a Christian (he prefered 'theist'), and was so proud of his Statute for Religious Freedom for the State of VA that he had that accomplishment carved on his tombstone.

Atheists I know are idealists. We need more of them in the world.

Peace be with you.

[F.Gordon]

52. How does this organization differ from........

...."christian" religious political action groups?

The broader issue is the separation of church and state. You can be a christian and understand the importance of this.

Groups that define themselves as being "godless" blur the lines. In fact, by saying that atheists "don't have a voice" sounds like they are taking a "religious" position.

So, how is this group different?

http://www.au.org/site/PageServer

Why the edit? Only one cup of coffee....and spelling.

[KG]

57. KG - a godless American, and a commie to boot!

:hi:

[neebob]

60. I prefer the term

god-free American. Change the name of that committee, and I'm on it.

[JanMichael]

61. My only real beef is with the fundies. They despise me, I think they're...

...f*ckin' crazy and dangerous. Where the conflict begins is in the institutionalisation of one brand of theocratic control. Ie. Prayer in School. They say it's non-denominational, and innoffensive, but making someone bow their head and (In the case of non-believers) fake like they're "praying" is just a tad sectarian regardless of the flavor of "prayer". Or those damned ten commandments monuments that they keep shoving onto public property...

Other religious types don't bother me at all. Not that it should matter anyway.

[mopaul]

76. Louis Armstong is my god

i'm serious. he was very christ-like, spreading the gospel of music and joy to all the corners of the world. he was an excellent ambassador, and did more to bring people together than possibly any other musician. john lennon also comes to mind.

always smiling, always friendly, and always high i might add. while he singlehandedly changed the music world forever, he also made an excellent example of his life, and how to find a common ground for all peoples.

bless you louis.

[misanthrope]

92. While Pops was certainly a great guy,...

... elevating him to Messianic stature, outside of music, is a bit much. Granted, I realize the point about spreading joy and what-not, but you need to read more about this mercurial and complex man before a pronouncement like that. He most definitely bore plenty of human flaws. I would suggest checking out a bio named "What a Wonderful Life" for a decent, unbiased approach to someone who would qualify more as "the American Bach" than "the American Christ."

Besides, we all know Coltrane was the real High Holy Prophet, and Satch "prepared the way." ;)

[democratdemagogue]

78. Christian democrat strikes back at ridiculously bad argument-kleenex pleas

If you have been threatened with death by proclaiming to be an atheist, the people threatening you obviously aren't real "christians" but wackos. Don't extrapolate to all Christians (oh my, I AM a christian myself) In fact you are complaining about feeling the same way that you are making others feel by removing all traces of any religon. Cut me a break and grow up. Get some thick skin! Give me one instance of anyone comparing an atheist to a child molester or killer. Ever time someone doesn't agree with you, you can't be like 'oh, that offends me.' Your vote is equal to my vote, they both count as one. YOu are simply in the minority. Hence, you are equal. But by heeding to the minority view, yours, that would make it unequal.

[Az]

82. How bout a former president

No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.
-- George Bush

We try not to clump all Christians into the same category. But please do not dismiss the oppression we undergo in this society. We hold no elected seats. We are not recognised when discriminated against. We are the permissible hated. The society does not condemn bashing of atheists.

Take a look at this url to see a few of the more interesting comments arrayed against us. http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/scarstartframe.htm

[democratdemagogue]

91. more kleenex needed here

please site me one example of an atheist being discriminated against. What, you didn't get a job or weren't seated in a restaurant because you're an atheist? Get enough people to vote for you and then you'll get an elected seat.

[Az]

94. Ok low count

Ya know, I treated you with a touch of respect because thats my way. But its obvious you are just a hate monger. So I am done with you. If you wish to discuss something with me I am more than available. But I will not play your silly little game. Now go away low count.

[democratdemagogue]

104. whoa

I didn't mean to offend, I just was trying to illustrate a point using sarcasm. I have never heard of an atheist being discriminated against or talked bad about since the old Morton Downey Jr shows of the 80s. I'm still trying to learn how this works being new and all. Please let me explain again. I just haven't heard of anyone being discriminated against, much less receiving death threats or the like. And if someone had done such things, it only makes the hypocrisy of that so called Christian even more apparent. Thats all. sorry for the perceived insult. None meant.

[Az]

117. Ok, then allow me to present some personal examples

I have some darwin fish on my car. I put them there to let other atheists know they are not alone. However naturally others have noticed them too. This is a sampling of their reaction and what they have done to my car.

3 complete sets of stickers ripped off my car and stolen.
Car trunk keyed in the shape of a cross.
WWJD necklace wrapped around my windshield wiper.
Countless pamphlets stuck on windshield.
10 bibles dumped on my trunk.
Followed into a parking lot and evangelyzed.
Flipped off.
A friend was chased off the road and called a dirty heathen for same fish on his car.
And just 2 days ago I had a I "heart" Jesus air freshner wrapped around my driver side mirror with an invitation to talk to the owner about "something".

Now this is just a sample of the direct actions take towards me because of my being honest about my atheism. There are numerous other things done to atheists in the name of belief. Until very recently there were laws in many of the states of this country barring atheists from serving in an elected capacity. Polls show that all things being equal over 50% of the population would vote against a person simlpy for being atheist (higher than any race, gender, of any other religious stance). We have to spend money professing a trust we do not share. We have been forced to say oathes we cannot swear honestly too.

Now with George in office our tax dollars are being syphened off into the coffers of religious institutions we believe may be detrimental to the long term health of this society. Our education system's neutrality towards religion (which benefits both sides) is being dismantled. Religious text and oathes are being forced into the courts of the land. And our rights are being stripped away by a vocal religious minority bent on returning this land to a theocratic state.

There may be some cause for atheists to be concerned.

[Paradise]

108. oh man,

i just love that spideyman! is he performing a sped-up version of tai chi? i'm simultaneously mesmerized and tickled. god (no pun intended), i can't do anything. before du my repertoire consisted of :) , and now ta da the smilies lookup table! whoopee!

[charlie]

96. Can the tough-guy posturing

Get enough people to vote for you and then you'll get an elected seat.

Get enough people to vote for you and you'll be vulnerable to challenge from constitutional provisions in the following states:

Arkansas
Maryland
Massachusetts
North Carolina
Pennsylvania
South Carolina
Tennessee
Texas

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/StateConstitutions.htm

Now, if any one of those had explicitly codified prohibitions against Christians or Jews holding office, I expect the outrage and teeth-gnashing from believers would be deafening.

And rightly so.

[democratdemagogue]

105. interesting

Very interesting, now thats an example of discrimination. Do you think it would be that difficult to change? How about a challenge under the Equal protection Clause?

[ButterflyBlood]

115. it wouldn't require that

the Constitution specifically prohibits religious tests to hold public office. if any of these were enforced they'd be thrown out in an instant.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

120. *sniff* It's been done for a while...

The Inquisition (Let's begin)
The Inquisition (Look out sin)
We have a mission to convert the Jews (Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew)
We're gonna teach them wrong from right.
We're gonna help them see the light
and make an offer that they can't refuse. (That those Jews just can't refuse)
Confess, don't be boring.
Say yes, don't be dull.
A fact you're ignoring:
It's better to lose your skull cap than your skull (or your govalt!)
The Inquisition (what a show)
The Inquistion (here we go)
We know you're wishin' that we'd go away.
But the Inquisition's here and it's here to stay!

"I was sitting in a temple. I was minding my own business.
I was listening to a lovely Hebrew mass.
Then these Papus persons plungered and they throw me in a dungeon and they shove a red hot poker up my ass.
Is that considerate? Is that polite?
And not a tube of Preperation H in sight!"

"I'm sittin' flickin' chickens and I'm lookin' throught the pickins' and suddenly thes goyim pull down valls.
I didn't even know them and they grabbed my by the stoghum and started playing ping pong with my balls!
Ooh, the agony! Ooh, the shame!
To make my privates public for a game?"

The Inquisition (what a show)
The Inquisition (here we go)
We know you're wishin' that we'd go away.
But the Inquisition's here and it's here to-
"Hey Toquemada, walk this way."
"I just got back from the Auto-de-fe."
"Auto-de-fe? What's an Auto-de-fe?"
"It's what you oughtn't to do but you do anyway."
Will you convert? "No, no, no, no."
Will you confess? "No, no, no, no."
Will you revert? "No, no, no, no."
Will you say yes? "No, no, no, no!"
Now I asked in a nice way, I said, "Pretty please."
I bent their ears, now I'll work on their knees!
"Hey Toquemada, walk this way. We got a little game that you might wanna play, so pull that handle, try you're luck."
"Who knows, Toq, you might win a buck!"

"How we doin', any converts today?"
"Not a one, nay, nay, nay."
"We flattened their fingers, we branded their buns!
Nothing is working! Send in the nuns!"

The Inquisition, what a show.
The Inquisition, here we go.
We know you're wishin' that we'd go away!
So all you Muslims and you Jews
We got big news for all of yous:
You'd better change your point of views TODAY!
'Cause the Inquisition's here and it's here to stay!

http://otherside.junik.lv/misc/inquisition.mp3

[neebob]

93. Now that's just scary

Correction: This is one nation under attack by a family of shameless lying criminals and their shameless lying criminal friends. Atheists shouldn't be citizens? Holy crap. Perhaps there is a bigger asshole on the planet - taller, anyway.

[Malva Zebrina]

125. People who are not capable of an adult discussion re religions often

bring up Stalin as a killer, and a mass killer as well and the reason is that he was an atheist,--Most are so anxious to prove atheists demons and evil killers as was STalin that they fail to understand how their proposition is quite silly. Child molester? I cannot bring to mind any right now, but Madeline Murray O-Hare did suffer some pretty bad lies and insults aimed unfairly in her direction from Christian believers. Bertrand Russell, the great philosopher also suffered greatly for announcintg his atheism. His essay "Why I am not a Christian" ticked off a lot of "nice" Chrisitan people who were not very nice at all, and he lost his job as professor at Columbia University.

For those who would like to read or reread Russell's essay



http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/russell0.htm

[HydroAddict]

85. Whoop!

kicking this up baby! Ellen, I love ya babe!

[Skittles]

87. ME,ME!!!

I am absolutely SICK TO DEATH of the hatred religion inflicts on this world. I don't to want to take away anyone's "faith" - I JUST WANT THEM TO LEAVE ME AND THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF IT. Is that TOO much to ask ???

[9215]

88. I resent believers intrusion on my right to not believe:

intruding on my non-believer karma with thinly veiled proselytizing.

What's always galled me is the fact that we atheists mostly don't care about people believing the BS of the Bible if that is what they want to do.

But the religious people insist on converting us to something we find idiotic: bearded old men creating the world 4.7 thousand years ago. :eyes:
They insist that we give the nod to something we don't believe in. No wonder the world is such a fucking mess. Everybody trying to force everybody into the same pea pod instead of using their brains to solve the pressing problems of this world.

Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices.
- Voltaire, 1767.

BTW: The Reverend Barry Lynn of Americans United for the Seperation of Church and State is one of my heroes. Figure that one out.

[HEyHEY]

90. yoda!

He's my god!

[smcmike]

95. Growing up athiest,

I know all about the "descrimination" that we go through, i often was the only one i knew who didn't believe in god... it is nothing like, say, racism or homophobia, but it does exist.

And while i have to say that terms like "sky-daddy" should be avoided, they only serve to create division, i guess my real point is this: Don't you just love how (usually conservative, evangelical) christians make themselves out to be the put-upon minority? They are being opressed because we don't allow them to dominate our government with their religious slogans? That always strikes me as absurd. Also, I am somewhat offended by the door-to-door preacher types, it is rude, from my perspective, to get in my face about my core beliefs. which is why i don't feel bad about getting in their face about their core beliefs.

[opihimoimoi]

99. When they come to make me SEE the WORD, the Light, to SAVE ME....

I then attempt to point out the flaws, the intent, the goal, the truth.

They often counter and I counter counter, etc until they give up. In their minds I am UNSAVABLE but in my mind, they are pawns used by their masters who control them.

I usually point out they teach WHAT we should think, along with a flawed HOW we should think. The logic used by fundies are often baseless and without credible links. Deluded rationalization.

Religion, Its a YOKE on Mankind foisted by exploitive MEN over the Ages. For every GOOD there are 17612534 BADs. Count me worried for our COLLECTIVE FUTURE on this here one Planet we just happened to evolve on.

Lolo voting gets us Lolo Presidents who then gives us lolo decisions which result in a lolo lifestyle. Why are we so LOLO? Look all around us.

[JoeKSimmons]

101. Good luck

If you want to run on an intolerant platform then have at it.

When you succeed in making the Democratic party "godless" let me know so I can get off the sinking ship.

[Malva Zebrina]

133. You should not be so scared

Athiests are the most caring, the most moral and the most concerned, compassonate people I know. They have no other motive than their own concerns for the human race. ie, they do not perform acts of kindness because they will be rewarded for it in an after life although those who do that, at least, are contributing something even though the morivation is selfish in some respects. It still is a positive, if looked at that way.

All Ellen Johnson and her PAC are looking for is a place at the American political table. Up until now, this faction of our population has been virtually powerless , without money, disdained and ignored.

[Snail Darter]

102. Divide and Conquer

I've heard (and God only knows :D if it's true or not) that the point of the Establishment Clause in the Constitution was to keep the federal government from establishing a national Church--so that the states could establish state Churches.

I'm basically an atheist, too, so the idea of state Churches frightens me. But I think there may be a point to the idea that's worth considering even if we reject the idea itself. It's as if the founders (even the ones that may have been secretly atheist) thought that religion would always be with us and that the way to keep it from overrunning everything was to divide it politically and geographically.

I'd be a lot less worried about the role of religion in public life if I could just be sure that it didn't have much of a role at the national level.

Think of it this way, too: It would be a lot easier to establish a real world government (instead of just a U.N. that can't do much more than pass resolutions), if the world government only had certain functions and otherwise respected local cultures by giving "the states" broad discretion over matters like religion. The right sort of federalism would amount to REAL multiculturalism--a thousand and one states with a thousand and one cultures. With a guarantee of open borders, no "state" could be too authoritarian, because people would just vote with their feet. B-)

[jsw_81]

106. I applaud Ellen Johnson and the atheists

There are more non-believers in this country than Jews‚ Mormons, Buddhists, Muslims, and Hindus combined and it’s time we started flexing our political muscle.

[MidwestMomma]

109. I think because of the successful propaganda of the 50's and 60's

that way too many people equate atheists with communists and these same people still wrongly believe that communists are somehow a threat to 'our American way of life'. Does that make sense to anyone but me?

I was raised a Catholic and the recurring theme of why the communists were bad is because....gulp...THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD! Not only that, but if they ever invaded the United States (WTF? How was that suppose to happen?) they would force everyone to denounce GOD or be killed!

This was the crap I was fed as a child. I didn't digest it as easily as some but then I was an intelligent child. :D

I learned a long time ago the biggest enemy of this country are the people that like to point fingers and blame others.

I'm personally grateful to the atheists who have fought so hard for separation of church and state, because no matter what your beliefs, we have all benefited from their efforts.

Peace and thanks for listening.

[Paradise]

112. now listen all you guys/gals,

you know you can't discuss religion, and politics, especially in mixed company. :headbang: and, if you guys/gals don't laugh at this, i'm going to another thread. well, at least, i'm laughing. :silly:

[RebelOne]

113. Atheist here.

Ellen Johnson held her own against the Christian callers.

[BlueEyedSon]

139. Link to their website.

Sorry if it was already included in this thread, but I was in a hurry. :)


http://www.godlessamericans.org