Something's not right about the train bombing

[knight_of_the_star]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but unless you're talking about the IRA and the UDL duking it out in Northern Ireland most terrorist groups usually take the the media the day of or after they conduct a successful attack and scream at the top of their lungs that they did it and why. As far as I know, the only group of that nature to say ANYTHING are the Basque Seperatists, and they said they didn't do it. Isn't it kind of odd that such a huge attack that gets so much international media attention and does so much damage has gone for two days thus far without ANYONE taking the credit for it?

That and from what I know organized crime usually doesn't bother with such large-scale mayhem. Usually they target individuals and their families to suffer "unfortunate accidents" that are making their lives difficult. From what I know they don't operate in this fashion.

I'm not going to suggest any tinfoil hat stuff, but something is not right about this.

[adadem]

1. You're not alone in your thinking n/t

[Junkdrawer]

2. Smells bad on a number of counts...

See:

When terror worked

[Nlighten1]

3. Didn't the previously destroyed Al Queda take credit for it?

[knight_of_the_star]

4. I don't think so

It would have been all over the media if the boogeyman took credit for it. Trust me, we wouldn't be hearing the end of it if they did.

[JohnyCanuck]

9. There was a questionable claim by a group saying they were Al Quaeda

WASHINGTON -- A group purporting to be part of Al Qaeda that claimed responsibility for the Madrid train bombings and warned of a looming attack on the United States seems to be a phantom organization, according to US intelligence officials and terrorism specialists.

In a 24-hour news cycle dominated by fears of terrorism, the latest e-mail from the Abu Hafs al Masri Brigade to a London-based Arabic newspaper sowed anxiety and drew instant headlines all over the world.

But specialists say there is no evidence the organization exists. E-mail messages purporting to be written by the group previously claimed responsibility for everything from the North American blackout to a suicide attack that killed 20 Italian policemen in Iraq. But none of those claims has proved true, intelligence specialists say.

The latest message warned that an attack against the United States is "90 percent ready."

www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/03/13/officials_group_tying_self_to_blasts_may_not_be_real/

But it does seem strange that if it really were a terrorist organization like ETA or Al Quaeda they wouldn't have massively played up and publicized their ability to carry out such a devestating attack, and this particular group has made some wild claims before.

[Not gullible]

17. What is al-Qaida anyway?

Aren´t they CIA-assets?

http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/01-11-04/discussion.cgi.28.html

[WoodrowFan]

19. CIA?

Anyone who thinks that Al-Qaida is a "CIA asset" should change their name to "extremely gullible and believes anything I read on the web"

ah, thank you God for the ignore list!

[DenverDem]

25. You are now on mine, dude.

Preesh.

[Nlighten1]

22. Yes...and according to our government they have been...

mostly destroyed...

But then look at all the jobs their tax cuts have created.

[forgethell]

5. There was a claim

an al-Queda offshoot made a claim. Sorry, I don't have a link handy, and my computer is responding extrremely slowly today, so I will not look it up, but check the net, it's all over.

Now, the more important question is, will this bring the Spanish populace over to the side of the US government, to go after and kill terrorists? Or will they decide that the French have the right idea?

[knight_of_the_star]

7. Something's not right about that though

I'm not saying it didn't happen, just that if a group related to Al Queda took the credit for it, then the media and Bush would be making a circus out of it, saying how no one is safe and how we have to keep fighting, etc.

[forgethell]

45. Give them some time,

besides, what exactly is your point? something's not right. What explanation do you have? I'm not trying to provoke you here, I'm just asking what do you think is not right?? If * is thought to be behind it, say so, and say why so we can all join in.

[gator_in_Ontario]

6. I have a friend who lives in Barcelona

and we have chatted in yahoo about this thing. She thinks it is not ETA because they tend to have specific targets, usually government officials. They usually not only claim responsibility, but give warnings before hand. She thinks it is because their king (whom they refer to a 'the little dog') threw in his lot with 'the cowboy'.
Whatever, it is odd no-one has bragged on it yet....

[knight_of_the_star]

8. Kick

:kick:

[Junkdrawer]

10. Current betting is that ETA will be blamed before the Spanish elections...

and Al Queda afterward.

[Not gullible]

16. Yes, this is exactly their agenda...

...in this way they will kill two birds with one stone!!

[AP]

11. Exactly. If it's about politics, you always know who did it. If it's crime

you don't.

More accurately, if it's about politics and it's perpertrated by someone who feels oppressed, they tell you they did it, because it's the only way to make their message (being that they don't have money, power, and armies).

If it's about preserving the political power of those already in charge, well, there's no need to tell you who did it, because it's the fear that will keep them in power.

And I'm not saying that Aznar's party did this.

What I'm saying is that Busha and OBL aren't that far apart. They're two sides of the same coin. They're powerful crime families who already have great wealth and power. I don't care if OBL lives in a cave. He's part of a saudi hegemony that's battling it out (or battling with -- it's not very clear) the American hegemony in order that they can both or one or the other maintain power.

Whoever really did this bombing is, politically speaking, so far from the IRA and ETA and FARC or the Marxists in Nepal, who are all fighting against oppression and fighting for the power they've been denied.

Whoever did this bombing was people who are already on top. And look who gets caught in the cross-fire: average, working class people, just trying to do their part to keep the whole system going, hoping they get a few crumbs. And look who benefits: the fascists and the neoliberals.

[Shopaholic]

14. Something just doesn't feel right about this. . .

I'm not sure what it is, but something's just not right. If it's the ETA then why haven't they taken responsibility? And why does it carry all the hallmarks of OBL & Co., except for the type of dynamite used? There's also the possibility, I suppose, that ETA & OBL & Co. could have joined forces--you know the old saying, "The Enemy of my Enemy is My Friend" line of thinking. And of course, it could always be shadowy forces within our own government but if so, why aren't they making more noise about this? It would seemingly be their dream come true--another shocking terrorist attack to add to the body count and another opportunity for Shrubbie to claim we're all gonna die if we don't re-elect him? Could it be that the US never saw this coming? That we've had yet another intelligence failure? And if there's even a small possibility that it is OBL & Co. then why hasn't our terror threat been raised? And why isn't our media screaming at the top of their lungs to get answers to these questions?

[Nay]

12. I thought it often took weeks for ETA to say whether or not a specific

bombing was theirs or not? And aren't they often bombing trains? I have a terrorism expert friend who told me that these groups often evolve -- so just because they haven't done synchronized bombings in the past, there's no reason to think they wouldn't in the present. The same goes for the materials they use -- change is almost inevitable. After all, when 9/11 happened, you gotta admit it was pretty spectacular and got a lot of response because of all 4 planes hitting basically at the same time ... so any terrorist group around the world would pick up that idea as a good one.

That said, I have no idea who REALLY did the bombings, and I'm not sure we'd ever get the real truth anyway.

[DenverDem]

13. We are so afraid of confronting the truth.

"I'm not going to suggest any tinfoil had stuff" is so eloquent in its expression of the chilling of dissenting thought even in this supposed alternative forum.

What do you think is at the root of this incident? Do you even have the capacity to think in a critical fashion after your consciousness has been under political, institutional and cultural anti intellectual attack by political, educational and media institutions your whole life?

What is the effect of this attack on the collective consciousness? Who benefits from that effect? While it is, in the final analysis, a question of "Follow the money", specifically here it is a question of "Follow the socio political capital". If we applied this concept to the questions of 9/11, the analysis of what group reaped the political capital would lead directly to a rather obvious place. The problem then becomes our courage to intellectually accept and act on the conclusions our personal analysis indicates to us.

[knight_of_the_star]

27. I personally think

This is just my thoughts on it, but I would be willing to bet money that the CIA or possibly the Spanish equivalent was involved in this to try to push Spain more into the waiting arms of the BFEE.

"Do you even have the capacity to think in a critical fashion after your consciousness has been under political, institutional and cultural anti intellectual attack by political, educational and media institutions your whole life?"

That was MORE than unnecessary. You don't need to resort to ad hominen in an intelligent discussion, thank you. I'm just not going to suggest conspiracy theories until the evidence has eliminated all other possibilities. I believe in looking at the facts and evidence of a situation, then drawing a conclusion. Thus far, for all we know this bombing could have been perpetrated by a homegrown group of right-wing extremists in Spain, not unlike McVeigh or the Branch Dividians. I personally would rather wait until the facts about the situation are laid out for all to see before I draw a conclusion.

I was just mentioning in my post that it seems more than odd that no REAL terrorist group has taken credit for this and it COULD have been someone else at work, but I won't believe that conclusion until there is sufficient evidence to back it up.

[DenverDem]

33. The "you" was used in a collective sense and not aimed at You, the person.

Should have been "we" as it was meant to address the reader not the previous poster.

Sorry for the inaccurate reference. You (the person and previous poster) obviously have the intellectual integrity to raise the question and this is the very courage I was citing.

[knight_of_the_star]

34. Thanks for the clarification

I thought for a moment you were saying that I'm a coward for NOT suggesting tinfoil hat.

[DenverDem]

38. I'm saying that EVEN you, who have the intellectual courage

to raise questions, feel the pressure to qualify your perfectly appropriate suspicions as "not crazy". This is the obvious effect of the professional disinformationist agents and their sheeple cohorts who attack anyone questioning the corporate globalist meme.

[knight_of_the_star]

42. Why I am not saying that outright

Is because there is no evidence that I have to prove that position. I prefer to have ammo in my guns when I fire, not blanks. It makes it easier to argue with the sheeple if you can pile on the facts.

[DenverDem]

43. The problem with "facts" is the difficulty in finding any.

All media reportage is filtered through their overt and covert agendas and the truth is "out there" somewhere, but even if you are on the ground in Madrid, it would be difficult to be sure of anything.

This is the brilliance of the controlled media message, disproving the lies is almost impossible objectively, so one must operate on a macrointellectual level and understand the world wide wholistic impact of events such as this and the Power Elite Hegelian techniques for control.

[knight_of_the_star]

44. What I mean by evidence

Is if all other possibilities are eliminated in this case.

[DenverDem]

47. Deduction is a good technique.

Here's a new development.

<http://www.statesman.com/news/content/shared-gen/ap/Europe/Spain_Bombings_Arrests.html>

[Not gullible]

15. The same feelings with me

You are right!

[Junkdrawer]

18. Ya know, last night this place was lousy with the "only conspiracy...

nuts would think anyone but terrorists would do this" crowd. To me, THAT is a sign that somethings fishy.

[DenverDem]

24. The professional disinfo agents are pretty obvious around here.

They only show up at very opportune times and have consistent talking points.

Don't call them on it, though, or you will be deleted.

HMMMMM.

[Junkdrawer]

28. I'm serious when I say they tend to tag suspicious events...

There are certain posters (who shall remain nameless :evilgrin:) that, when I see them attack a point, especially in teams, make me feel almost certain that the point they oppose must contain an uncomfortable amount of truth.

[DenverDem]

39. Now you are getting it.

Only by becoming aware of the techniques of the Power Elite agents can we disarm their propaganda.

[fiend]

20. Very fishy. eom

[cliss]

21. Really good thread, Knight

And really good analysis which I haven't even considered. My thinking is this: we can expect more terrorism worldwide. There are SO many places which can be used as a terrorism target, in many heavily populated countries which could be used as a good target (with many casualties). There's no security that ___________ could not override.

I read recently in the most unlikely book; "Rich Dad's Prophecy" by Robert Kiyosaki, a real estate investor. He predicts that we will see terrorism escalate worldwide.

He points the finger very squarely on the Bush administration. He feels that their policies can only have one effect: a radical increase in the one thing they're claiming to extinguish.

So the question is, who is responsible for the train bombing? The one who has the most to gain. It will probably become apparent before too long.

[knight_of_the_star]

30. That and something else to consider

With predictions that international terrorism will be on the rise thanks to Bush, it will be easier for different groups to launch similar attacks and claim it to be terrorist, even if we're only talking about the mob or government agencies.

[wuushew]

23. Question about the Koran and other things found in the van

How do we know this was not a suicide bombing? I am guessing until more bodies are identified we cannot not know if any terrorists are among the dead. Also if you are planing on being a terrorist/martyr is it common to blow up the Koran with you or is it considered unholy to do so?

I am guessing that the amount of forensic evidence will be greater for 3/11 then 9/11.

[Minstrel Boy]

26. "something's not right" with a lot of bombings:

The "Red Brigade" false-flag Italian terror campaign of the 1970s, found to be the product of the fascist and CIA-sponsored Gladio team and the P2 Lodge, to drive Italians away from communism.
http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/operation_gladio_pr.htm
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA%20Hits/Gladio_CIAHits.html

The 1999 Moscow apartment bombings, pinned on Chechnya, and exploited by Putin to consolidate power.
http://english.terror99.ru/explosions/

The insurgency in the island of Mindanao, which junior officers of the Philippine military claimed, in a mutiny last year, was actually sponsored by the government to justify the stationing of US troops. And then there's the case of Michael Meiring, a CIA asset who blew off his legs in a Mindanao hotel room constructing a bomb, and was spirited out of the country by the FBI.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1019246,00.html

The massive bombing of religious pilgrims in Iraq, seemingly to incite a civil war between Sunnis and Shiites which neither side seem to desire, while the fragmentation of a united Iraq is in the strategic interest of both the United States and Israel. (Oded Yinon, in 1982: "The dissolution of Syria and Iraq later on into ethnically or religiously unique areas such as in Lebanon, is Israel's primary target on the Eastern front in the long run.")
http://www.xymphora.blogspot.com/2004_03_01_xymphora_archive.html#107890022814891895

Then there's 9/11. And a lot more besides.

There's nothing tinfoily about questioning the easy answers. When it comes to killing people, perpetrators often cover their tracks, but their identities are readily determined when one asks the simple question, Who benefits here?

[playahata1]

29. Why is everyone so afraid to even suggest that

the so-called powers that be can be capable of committing atrocities such as 9-11 and the Madrid bombings? Governments are human institutions, and as such are full of human beings who seek power by any means necessary -- even to the point of killing people? Said human beings are of course flawed human beings, and thus capable of doing great evil (whatever you mean by that). I would not put it past ANY government to do something like that, because I cannot trust government to always do the right thing.

[knight_of_the_star]

32. I wouldn't either

I'm just not jumping to conclusions as of yet, it could just as easily have been a bunch of home-grown nutcases like how we have the KKK and the Neo-Nazis.

[DenverDem]

40. The level of co ordination and the power of the weapons

suggests state level organization to me.

[DenverDem]

35. One can even posit the thesis that those in power have megalomaniacle

tendencies and as such would be succeptible to such misuses of power than the general populace. Given this predisposition, those in power should be under greater scrutiny for these sorts of excesses.

[Skip Intro]

31. No one claimed responsibility for 9*11 either

bin laden denied responsibility for 9*11

and in this instance, the Koran was found in a van nearby, just like 9*11

also, the anthrax letters were written to appear to be from an Arab source, yet the investigation, or the charade of an investigation, has focused on a domestic source. no one claimed responsibility for those attacks, either

The only thing clear to me is who we're supposed to blame. And who we're supposed to turn to for protection.

Create a shocking fear of an evil enemy, then offer protection from that enemy in exchange for unquestioning compliance as the real agenda is implemented. Crazy, right?

[Jose Diablo]

36. The more I think about it wonder

could the BFEE be behind this, to further restrict unmonitored travel in the USA? I hear train travel will now be subject to lists like air travel.

Can automobile travel be far behind? Notice all the potential check-points on the interstates? Maybe the BFEE has federal travel permits planned for the USA. To get a permit would say require a letter from the employer saying so and so deserves a vacation. LOL, this country is getting to be a hoot.

I am thinking this "protect us from the terrorists" is really about monitoring the USA citizen's. And eventually ban interstate travel by private citizens, in the interests of preserving fuel no doubt.

We need to junk the patriot act, totally. And fire those MF in the federal government that that are behind setting-up things like the camera's on the roads. Setting-up the camera's happened on Clinton's watch and before 911 BTW, this is beyond parties.

I think both parties are behind the closing of America. Power creep on the part of federal bureaucracy.

:tinfoilhat:

[windansea]

37. more info

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x419949

[izzie]

41. I think terror works in this way.....

It is only to be scary. Which they have done to us or the govt. They, our Govt, are running around trying to make every one feel scary, but look what the Sp did. They came out, what was it, 11Million and matched around the country and said you are not going to do that to us.They spit in the eye of the ones that did it and no one will wish to say they did it. It is almost as if one people was found the 11M would kill him.It is like the point of the terror is gone where all the terrorist have to do to us and our gov. is chatter on the PC more than normal. They won with us. Their point has been made. We can get you.Sp.has been here before and states we are not going to be in fear. It is my take any how.

[dpbrown]

46. Go and see "A Quiet American" and then get back to me on this

I found myself very enlightened about the CIA's willingness to intervene to ensure that chaos reigns supreme and stability flounders and democratically elected governments topple like dominoes.

How convenient that the "general population" gets hit in a nation that was resoundingly against the invasion but whose "leadership" overruled their desires, to back Bush despite the opposition of the population.

I'll bet not one leadership person was touched in these attacks.

[scottxyz]

48. al-Qaeda HAS taken reportedly credit for it

knight_of_the_star says "Isn't it kind of odd that such a huge attack that gets so much international media attention and does so much damage has gone for two days thus far without ANYONE taking the credit for it?"

But al-Qaeda HAS reportedly taken credit for it.

Here's the email they sent to an Arab-language London newspaper:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1226387&mesg_id=1226387

[Snail Darter]

49. Al Qaeda Usually Doesn't Publicly Claim Resp.

I think it's pretty characteristic of al Qaeda not to make a public statement of responsibility. Recall how quiet they were after 9/11 and after the Cole bombing.