Could the Spanish People Turn Against the USA???

[BabsSong]

Could the Madrid bombings end up blowing up in Bush's face?? If the culprit is determined to be ETA, then it's just a "Spanish" problem. However, if there is al-Qaida involvement that's a whole different ballgame. The Spainards, like all Europeans, protested greatly against the Iraq War/USA. If memory serves me, there was also some nastiness there at the time or with protests at a later date in that the government threatened and arrested people since the government was cozy with Bush. In addition, wasn't it Spain who had a whole bunch of their soldiers (or was it diplomats??) killed in a bombing attack in Iraq just several months ago. I remember the coffins and the ceremonies. If the Spanish people go nutso on their government for supporting us and getting involved in Iraq and thus, bringing this down on them, it won't be long before other countries errupt in anti-USA protests to try to get their governments to drop us before something happens to them---and that's not good for King Georgie. I wonder if that is why initially the reports jumped real fast from ETA to al-Qaida involvement and then, bingo, a real fast pull back and a "beats us who it was; we need to investigate for a long time" position that the Spanish government has now taken???? Georgie was getting loads of miles out of this on the news since it happens (he got terror back into the headlines); but, there must be a cold sweat now breaking out at how this could end up.

[ithacan]

1. yes: Bush has STRENGTHENED Al Qaeda

through his absolutely inept and disastrous foreign policy.

There's a really strong case to be made -- and Kerry and other dems should be shouting it from the rooftops -- that the war in Iraq was a huge distraction from the Al Qaeda battle, it gave them breathing room AND it provided them with a great recruiting line...

This will blow up in Bush's face, these guys are so blinded by their own ideology ...

[BabsSong]

2. ithican--that's why if they start demonstrating they are sending

a message "hey, idiot, see what you stirred up"; and if other countries also join in the "hey idiot, see what you stirred up" message becomes deafening. That's when Kerry can say "ahheem, excuse me Mr. President, but IDIOT see what you stirred up---so much for your 'policy' el shit for brains"!!! Please, please, please dear Spainard protest loud and clear!

[Jacobin]

3. 90% were against the invasion

I think they will turn against Aznar

[BabsSong]

4. I don't think Aznar is running in this election. So, it would have to

be a protest of their government still being involved with us and having involved themselves with us in the first place. It's going to be interesting what develops in the next weeks.

[pfitz59]

5. The dead diplomats and soldiers were Italian.

The Italian govt is facing loads of opposition to Iraq. Italian soldiers have been courts-martilaed for refsuing to deploy. US news sucks big time. Must watch foreign broadcasts, read foreign papers to really see what seeds of hatred Bush* and company have been sowing! PS - I've been to Madrid. Was terribly saddened to see its citizens become the latest victim of the BFEE plaque.

[ShaneGR]

6. Generally, the Spanish population is already against Bush... but...

If it turns out to be an Al-Queda bombing, don't be so surprised if that changes.

[BabsSong]

7. sgr--is it your take that they then would embrace Bush and his

"war on terror"?? I thought they would get pissed off that their government didn't listen to them and got them into this mess by supporting the war. Hmmmmm....that kind of makes another question go through my mind: if we had another attack, do you think the people would cling to Bush or turn against him??

[Snail Darter]

9. It's Not Aznar, It's "Andalusia"

Setting aside the question as to whether the ETA or al Qaeda are the bombers, my understanding is that al Qaeda think of Spain as muslim territory to be recovered for God. As important as it seems to us, Aznar's support for Bush is probably just a footnote to them. They want to reconquer their "Andalusia" from the "Crusaders" and reimpose their theocracy. (It's similar to religiously conservative Jews announcing that Palestine is theirs because an ancient book says God gave it to them.) That kind of dwelling on the past amounts to extreme conservatism; very few people want to "turn back the clock" as comprehensively as al Qaeda. And unbelieving moderns everywhere should tremble at the thought that al Qaeda lump Bush in with the rest of us and consider us all to be indistinguishable infidels.

[Paradise]

12. what would we do? that would be 'telling' wouldn't it?

as for the spaniards, the sentiments and signs, i see and can translate, are definitely anti-war/iraq war, accusatory of their government's complicity with the u.s./bush regime, and that they are paying the price for the sins of their government. i truly don't know how most americans would react and i shudder to think.

[rumguy]

8. The huge protests taking placre right now are in anger at their

government for going along with Bush*

[scottxyz]

10. They should just turn against two people: Bu$h and Assnar

n/t

[scottxyz]

11. Country is seen as responsible for its leaders

BabsSong says: "The Spainards, like all Europeans, protested greatly against the Iraq War/USA."

The Iraqis also protested against their leader. Didn't stop them from getting invaded.

Countries tend to get attacked when the People aren't able to get rid of their dictators.

The fact that most of us don't support Bush won't stop us from getting attacked because of his policies.

Fair or not, the country is viewed as being responsible for its leaders.

All the more reason we should get rid of Bush.

[Imajika]

13. The elections tomorrow will tell us quite a lot...

If the conservatives win as expected, or do even better than anticipated, I would say the answer is probably no.

If the socialist do better than predicted, or outright win the election, I would say that it is a possibility.

If Spanish people turn against the US, it will be very bad indeed (though I get the sense that many on DU actually hope for this).

It is one thing to oppose the war in Iraq and hope Bush goes down because of it, it is quite another to hope that a critical US ally retreats in the face of Islamic terror.

The message that would send around the world were Spain to retreat from the fight against Islamic religious terrorism would be devastating. Al-Queda and its spin-offs would be emboldened, not weakened. Terrorists would believe their bombings work, inspiring them to ratchet up the pace of such attacks.

I want Bush gone, but I hope he does as little damage to the United States as possible in the next 8 months. I have a feeling that many here actually hope the United States becomes isolated, not so much because they hate Bush, but because they don't like the US posture against Islamic fanatics.

Imajika

[KurtNilsen]

14. good post.

Applause!!!

[bemildred]

15. Yes, they will, and the reaction of the Spanish people as well.

With regard to your other question, I can speak only for
myself, but I am sick of supporting the stupid imperial
delusions of the government, I think they are doing great
harm to this nation by their policies, and it mischaracterizes
my sentiments to say I wish harm to my own country, I do not.
Islamic terror, while a nasty business, has nothing to do
with it, and in fact current US foreign policy does nothing
useful to abate islamic terror, as the current events in
Spain clearly suggest.

Regards.

[arrogantatheist1000]

16. I believe the socialists will win.

90% of the country was against the war in Iraq. Yet the government went anyway. Now they paid a big time price.

Where there was no terror on spain there is terror now.

The terrorists would believe their bombings work, because you know what bombings do work. Thats the sad reality. Each of the 5-10 muslims behind this could write letters for the rest of their lives to western sources and people about how the muslims dying horrible deaths in Iraq is wrong.

You know what though, that would never change anything. However 1 well executed bombing can change a nations path. Just like the bali bombings killed australia's support for the war on terror. Notice how australia is extremely low visibility now whereas before they were in your face one of the three main countries fighting the war.

What seems to be pissing spanish off even more then the bombings themselves is their government trying to blame it on another group so as to avoid the responsibility themselves. That shows them for the lying political opportunist scumbags that they are.

The islamists timed this attack precisely to destabilize the spanish government, and to break the weak member of the coalition.

[Imajika]

17. So do you think it would be good...

...if the Islamists win? I mean do you think that this bombing, if it were successful in driving Spain out of the alliance with the United States in the fight against terrorism would be a good thing?

Wouldn't that be a huge victory for Al Queda and its associated networks, which would only encourage them to do more of these types of bombings elsewhere in an attempt to further isolate the United States?

And if you believe the isolation of the United States from its European and Asian allies is a good thing, why would you think this? Wouldn't that leave the Islamists then free to move forward with their attempts to spread Islamic radicalism in the Middle East and elsewhere without having to worry about a unified West against them? I do wonder sometimes if many people fully appreciate how horrific a vision for the world folks like Bin Laden and his ilk have.

I'm sorry, I hate that George Bush has damaged our relationships throughout the world, but I don't hope to see Spain retreat from its alliance with the United States in the fight against terrorism. I believe Muslim fundamentalism is a real danger, not something Bush made up. I believe if the West becomes fractured, that chaos and death will increase not decrease.

The idea is to point out to Americans that Kerry will rebuild our alliances, not hope for our friends and allies to abandon us altogther in the face of Islamic attacks. The consequences of Islamic extremists scoring a major success here by weakening Spain's desire to combat terrorism is frightening. Even more disturbing is the feeling I get that many here think that would be a good thing.

Imajika

[arrogantatheist1000]

18. I think it would be a devastating blow to american worldwide power

It would be a huge victory for the islamists if one small attack can break away a nation.

I was reading reports from norweigan journalists who had been studying islamic message boards. The islamics said that Spain was the weak partner and they expected 3 assaults would force the Spanish government into retreat. Because of political pressure.

I believe Islamists are a huge and growing threat to the western nations worldwide interests. I do not believe that the average muslim wants to come and take over America. I do believe that they want the bloodshed in their region to stop. And for their tyrannical leaders to be overthrown.

Even in places like Iraq, the nations were setup by the British. The british designed the nations to create perpetual conflict. Then the british would come in and rule through one side. It was the way Britain became so powerful. However the people at this point just want to start over. America has said it will maintain the 'territorial integrity' of Iraq.

America starved to death 1.5 million Iraqis and bombed many more. I said in the mid 1990's as it was going on that will create huge hatred that probably we probably won't be able to deal with in the long run. It may very well be true at this point we are so hated that even if we withdraw and meet their demands they will press on.

However I don't believe the average man in the muslim world would want to press on at that point. You see though we would have to give up many rich westerners property holdings across the muslim lands. We would have to give up our oil control. We would have to let Isreal go down. I don't find it terribly likely that we would let any of those happen without a severe fight.

And a severe fight we are getting into. As I've been saying for over a year this war is in its very early stages. Right now we occupy less then 5% of Islam. And that occupation is costing huge amounts of our treasure and blood. There is no realistic way we could hold 20% let alone the 80 or 90% we would need to hold for long term subjigation.

So I guess from the perspective that we have boxed ourselves into a corner and have to stay on the offensive Spain breaking away would be a big problem. I don't think if Spain does stay however that it would do that much. Prolong the inedible more.

Isreal is ultimately undefendable. We ultimately aren't going to be able to control a region with 100's of millions with a rapidly growing population. Bombing them more and treating them unfairly more just means that when we are forced out they won't stop as early as they would have.

So I guess it is a bad thing, but I don't believe ultimately it is stoppable anyway. I am not a pessimist though, this world will always be controlled by the forces that win in the last round. It is survival of the fittest just like any system. Even if we do go down to terror it will be the better side that won. If we do win then still the better side won.

To me tomorrow's election in spain is maybe the biggest moment on the war on terror so far. Its going to show how willing europe is to sustain the losses that a real war means. A war where the enemy has a powerful weapon that we have not found a way to stop. Much like the islamists are struggling against air power with no real recourse.

If they fold it will show that the west really is the paper tiger bin laden talks about. Of course Spain will have to sustain many more attacks like this and stay in the game. But at least if they can take one average sized attack it shows they are willing to fight at least to some degree.

From my studies I don't think the Spanish want to fight. I dont' think mothers who only have one child in their life want to see that child die for the state. Even if the Popular Party wins, I will have to see the direction they take the nation. They above anything else want to stay in power.

Much like John Howard in Australia, after bali australia basicaly dropped out of the war on terror. Even though if asked they would say they are fighting along side us. They disappeared off the radar screen in the public sense when they realized this is a real war and there will be real consequences to fighting it.

[maggrwaggr]

20. Well that's exactly why George Bush is such a major LOSER

because he's totally ruined EVERYthing as far as any kind of international support for the United States.

GWB pissed in everybody's face, now he's paying the piper.

George W. Bush simply fucked everything up.

He's given the terrorists everything they could ever have dreamed of.

That's why I'm so goddamn pissed off at him.

He's worse than they are.

[doubles]

19. Iraq was not a war against Al Qaeda, all it did was recruit more Al Qaeda

members. If Bush focused his wars on rooting out Al Quaeda, then people would have continued supporting him. Instead he went after Saddam who Bush even admitted has no link to Al Qaeda and 9/11 and now is in some 'spring offensive' to get Bin Laden after diverting to Iraq.

[maggrwaggr]

21. exactly. We killed thousands of muslims for no reason

When i realized we were going to invade Iraq I was so angry because the minute we dropped one bomb on Baghdad it gave the terrorists a perfectly good reason to attack us.

We now deserve to get hit and everybody knows it.

Anyone who helped us deserves to get hit as well.

So of COURSE nobody wants to support us now.

Bush is a loser. He's screwed up the world more than I ever thought one guy could. We'll be lucky if somebody doesn't get nuked between now and January 20th because of this asshole.

If we had any shame whatsoever, US Citizens would take to the street and simply throw his ass out of power and they'd do it NOW.

[TankLV]

22. It would be against "bush*" not "the USA". Big difference.

bush* is not the USA. In fact he's the "anti-USA" (like the anti-christ).

I would never assume, let alone contemplate the two being equal.

I would hope and pray the the entire world soon is very much against bush*, and would do everything they could to correct this evil that occupies our land. And, yes, it's EVIL, not just a political "disagreement".

I really now know how the innocent Germans felt in the 1930's.